I’ve noticed that a good amount of literature I’ve been reading up on...
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I’ve noticed that a good amount of literature I’ve been reading up on...
talks about “black and white thinking” as being a reason for addiction (and even some mental illnesses). When my alcoholic boyfriend recently broke it off with me he accused me of having black and white thinking, making it difficult for him to have meaningful conversations with me. I have never been told this in my life (although it’s true I do have opinions on things and some sort of moral code, most people do). It’s so confusing to me, to be with someone for 3 years, and then to be told at the very end that basically your worldview is a problem (when it’s never been mentioned before). He also told me that I make him feel guilty for doing things that give him joy, which was also awesome to hear.
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"alcoholic boyfriend"
Unfortunately that's all you need to know in terms of how much weight to give the things he said to you.
He also told me that I make him feel guilty for doing things that give him joy, which was also awesome to hear.
Another classic. But so what if it's true, if he's referring to drinking his guilty feelings are all his to own. And if that's what gives him "joy" and it doesn't spark joy for you, well then it makes sense that this relationship is not a good one. Indeed he has every right to drink all day and all night. And you have every right to not be into that lifestyle and get as far away from it as possible!
Peace,
B
Unfortunately that's all you need to know in terms of how much weight to give the things he said to you.
He also told me that I make him feel guilty for doing things that give him joy, which was also awesome to hear.
Another classic. But so what if it's true, if he's referring to drinking his guilty feelings are all his to own. And if that's what gives him "joy" and it doesn't spark joy for you, well then it makes sense that this relationship is not a good one. Indeed he has every right to drink all day and all night. And you have every right to not be into that lifestyle and get as far away from it as possible!
Peace,
B
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He didn’t directly state drinking as one of his joys (of course) but when I asked for an example he told me it was because I did worry sometimes about him riding his motorcycle. More of a, “hey do you mind texting me when you get to your road trip destination” type of worry than a “I don’t want you to ride your motorcycle” type of worry. I even bought him a motorcycle jacket for his birthday, so for him to bring that out as well right at the end as a reason for breaking up, was surprising to me.
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Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Is the black and white thinking in place before they become alcoholics or after?
I think there a lot of things that drive people to drink. Can be emotional problems (as in dealing with emotions), can be mental illness (self medicating anxiety or depression or OCD etc). Can just be that the whole family drinks and it's what they do too and they slip in to alcoholism.
What I do believe it that at a certain point there is no way to determine which comes first. I have read articles that state that it is almost impossible to diagnose a mental disorder until the person stops drinking for a period of time.
Addiction is selfish. It changes the alcoholic physically and mentally, in fact it changes their brains both physically and mentally.
How on earth could anyone sort that out?
As for the black and white thinking, referring to you:
Translation: You think drinking is wrong not right and you won't compromise on that. If everything weren't so black and white to you then you would realize it's not that cut and dried. Of course in the context of your relationship it very much was cut and dried. The fact that he doesn't like your opinion does not make you a black and white thinker!
The other thing he said to you actually sounds honest! If you are so "good" all the time (nice) and he is not, that makes him feel bad about himself.
I think there a lot of things that drive people to drink. Can be emotional problems (as in dealing with emotions), can be mental illness (self medicating anxiety or depression or OCD etc). Can just be that the whole family drinks and it's what they do too and they slip in to alcoholism.
What I do believe it that at a certain point there is no way to determine which comes first. I have read articles that state that it is almost impossible to diagnose a mental disorder until the person stops drinking for a period of time.
Addiction is selfish. It changes the alcoholic physically and mentally, in fact it changes their brains both physically and mentally.
How on earth could anyone sort that out?
As for the black and white thinking, referring to you:
Translation: You think drinking is wrong not right and you won't compromise on that. If everything weren't so black and white to you then you would realize it's not that cut and dried. Of course in the context of your relationship it very much was cut and dried. The fact that he doesn't like your opinion does not make you a black and white thinker!
The other thing he said to you actually sounds honest! If you are so "good" all the time (nice) and he is not, that makes him feel bad about himself.
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Thank you Trailmix - I did often wonder if the drinking was to treat some underlying depression or other issue, as they seemed to go hand in hand with him. I also came to the conclusion that until a person is not under the influence for a good while, it’s probably hard to decipher. I do believe my “black and white” thinking mostly pertained to his drinking and the fact that he and I both knew it’s just not possible for him to do at all. I will admit I’m a pretty straight arrow (ironically) when it comes to any substances and I am a pretty boring person in that I’m not a rule breaker, etc. and don’t enjoy drama. He always said I’m the responsible one, which I always thought was a good thing, so to have it thrown in my face as the reason he found it impossible to talk to me was kind of horrible after so long together 
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I completely understand. You are being responsible and trying to live a good life and he comes along and tries to make that sound bad.
Well to him it probably is because it prohibits you from accepting his alcoholism. That other part where he says: "making it difficult for him to have meaningful conversations with me" - I'm sure he is referring to the fact that he would have like to discuss him continuing to drink but he couldn't (over and over again until you caved).
Alcoholics, in general, don't actually like themselves much. There is a lot of self loathing that goes on in their heads. Aside from the drinking and all that goes along with that (physical and mental problems, ruined careers, ruined friendships, ruined family relationships and disastrous romantic relationships), society, by and large, has a very negative view of the "drunk". Many people don't understand alcoholism, of course and people who are regularly drunk do understand how people react to them.
I think it's a rather hellish life. One with a solution but a solution that comes with some really hard work.
I'm sure you have read that alcoholism is progressive. While the amount he drank may not have increased that much while you were with him, the alcoholism and the damage it does is progressing.
Well to him it probably is because it prohibits you from accepting his alcoholism. That other part where he says: "making it difficult for him to have meaningful conversations with me" - I'm sure he is referring to the fact that he would have like to discuss him continuing to drink but he couldn't (over and over again until you caved).
Alcoholics, in general, don't actually like themselves much. There is a lot of self loathing that goes on in their heads. Aside from the drinking and all that goes along with that (physical and mental problems, ruined careers, ruined friendships, ruined family relationships and disastrous romantic relationships), society, by and large, has a very negative view of the "drunk". Many people don't understand alcoholism, of course and people who are regularly drunk do understand how people react to them.
I think it's a rather hellish life. One with a solution but a solution that comes with some really hard work.
I'm sure you have read that alcoholism is progressive. While the amount he drank may not have increased that much while you were with him, the alcoholism and the damage it does is progressing.
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I do just wish so much that he had opened up to me if he was struggling (even if he had some slips or a lapse - which I already knew had happened a few times and didn’t “judge” him - only tried to support him in getting some help). I overlooked the weed he was smoking even, against my better judgement. All in all, I almost felt like I was too lenient with him, never gave him any ultimatums, etc. In the weeks leading up to our breakup, he mentioned that he felt he couldn’t have deeper conversations with one of his friends (when I asked why they never did anything anymore), his parents (when I asked why he acted so annoyed/depressed by their visit) and now me I guess. I have wondered if this was kind of a way of self isolating, since of course none of the rest of us have changed at all. Or maybe he just thinks we don’t understand, which is somewhat true. But that’s why he should be in a program, to speak to people who do understand. It sounds weird, but I feel like he started to resent me for having my sh** together.
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It's not weird at all! Absolutely he did. Hence the comment about you doing things that give him joy.
Just really think about that for a minute. That makes absolutely zero sense, except if you don't like yourself and your behaviour.
He could be in a group that understands him if he wanted to be (which he doesn't).
You could never be what he thinks he wants (if he ever thinks about it that deeply which is questionable), everything he said to you (above) is about him, nothing to do with you.
It would be nice if he could have opened up to you, but he couldn't, for whatever reason and maybe you are right that he intends to isolate. It's rather ideal when you want to drink when you want in whatever amount you want.
If he had opened up to you he probably would have said, I must go away to drink. It really is the center of their thought process, more than most people realize. As it progresses they think about drinking while they are drinking, wondering about the next drink, how many drinks they have left in the fridge, when they are not drinking they are planning their next drink. When does the liquor store open (or the bar). How much can they reasonably drink with work tomorrow morning (that pretty much gets thrown by the wayside after the first drink).
Oh and I wanted to post this in case you haven't see it - a brain scan of an alcoholic vs a non-alcoholic:
https://hccegalitarian.com/2403/show...alcohol-abuse/
Just really think about that for a minute. That makes absolutely zero sense, except if you don't like yourself and your behaviour.
He could be in a group that understands him if he wanted to be (which he doesn't).
You could never be what he thinks he wants (if he ever thinks about it that deeply which is questionable), everything he said to you (above) is about him, nothing to do with you.
It would be nice if he could have opened up to you, but he couldn't, for whatever reason and maybe you are right that he intends to isolate. It's rather ideal when you want to drink when you want in whatever amount you want.
If he had opened up to you he probably would have said, I must go away to drink. It really is the center of their thought process, more than most people realize. As it progresses they think about drinking while they are drinking, wondering about the next drink, how many drinks they have left in the fridge, when they are not drinking they are planning their next drink. When does the liquor store open (or the bar). How much can they reasonably drink with work tomorrow morning (that pretty much gets thrown by the wayside after the first drink).
Oh and I wanted to post this in case you haven't see it - a brain scan of an alcoholic vs a non-alcoholic:
https://hccegalitarian.com/2403/show...alcohol-abuse/
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Abandoned...….I am not surprised that you felt gobsmacked by hearing those things that you described that he threw in your face.....
Anyone who is not familiar with one of the alcoholic's favorite...favorite defense mechanisms------Deflection----would be puzzled and confused.
In order to keep the spotlight off of them, and their drinking or other 'shortcomings".....they point out some "bad thing" about the other person. To shift or deflect the attention away from themselves.
What they accuse, with their finger pointing, at the other person,, might be true at a certain level...BUT, just as often, in fact, most often, it is something designed to hit the other persons vulnerable and sensitive areas....
Believe me, they know where the sensitive areas or hot buttons are.
For example...if the other person is a good, consciencious mother, and puts a lot of thought and effort into the childcare....the alcoholic might say...."You were negligent last Tuesday, when you failed to feed the kids a green AND yellow vegetable at dinner...…"See what a bad mother you are".....
Another defense mechanism that alcoholics or anybody who has low self esteem will often use is called "leveling"....They will either criticize the other person to bring them down to their own perceived level, OR....
Build them selves up to bring themselves UP to the other persons imagined (in their own mind) level,,,,,,by boasting and bragging and pumping themselves up...…..for example-----"Everybody knows that I am the best looking guy at the gym...they all want to be me!"
In all these cases that I have described....the person receiving the criticism hasn't done anything wrong....it is about the alcoholic trying to take the spotlight off of them and their own behaviors that they are trying to defend....
Of course it hurts! I don't think that anyone of us relishes having our vulnerable points being attacked....especially when it isn't true.....
Here is the thing, in my way of looking at it...the alcoholic is so desperate to defend themselves, that they don't care that they might have hurt the feelings of the other person….defending their drinking or right to drink trumps the damage done to the relationship......or, the other person.....
It helps to understand how alcoholism works....because it keeps you from personalizing the awful things that they do to us and causing us to agonixe, endlessly, over it......It takes a lot of "weight off of our shoulders.....
Anyone who is not familiar with one of the alcoholic's favorite...favorite defense mechanisms------Deflection----would be puzzled and confused.
In order to keep the spotlight off of them, and their drinking or other 'shortcomings".....they point out some "bad thing" about the other person. To shift or deflect the attention away from themselves.
What they accuse, with their finger pointing, at the other person,, might be true at a certain level...BUT, just as often, in fact, most often, it is something designed to hit the other persons vulnerable and sensitive areas....
Believe me, they know where the sensitive areas or hot buttons are.
For example...if the other person is a good, consciencious mother, and puts a lot of thought and effort into the childcare....the alcoholic might say...."You were negligent last Tuesday, when you failed to feed the kids a green AND yellow vegetable at dinner...…"See what a bad mother you are".....
Another defense mechanism that alcoholics or anybody who has low self esteem will often use is called "leveling"....They will either criticize the other person to bring them down to their own perceived level, OR....
Build them selves up to bring themselves UP to the other persons imagined (in their own mind) level,,,,,,by boasting and bragging and pumping themselves up...…..for example-----"Everybody knows that I am the best looking guy at the gym...they all want to be me!"
In all these cases that I have described....the person receiving the criticism hasn't done anything wrong....it is about the alcoholic trying to take the spotlight off of them and their own behaviors that they are trying to defend....
Of course it hurts! I don't think that anyone of us relishes having our vulnerable points being attacked....especially when it isn't true.....
Here is the thing, in my way of looking at it...the alcoholic is so desperate to defend themselves, that they don't care that they might have hurt the feelings of the other person….defending their drinking or right to drink trumps the damage done to the relationship......or, the other person.....
It helps to understand how alcoholism works....because it keeps you from personalizing the awful things that they do to us and causing us to agonixe, endlessly, over it......It takes a lot of "weight off of our shoulders.....
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Thank you Trailmix and Dandylion. It really helps me to get some outside perspective on this, because to be honest it was starting to make me really question myself. It’s hard to kind of remove yourself from a situation (one you thought was a mutual give and take relationship) and realize that not a lot about it had much to do with you at all in the end. It’s very hard to kind of reconcile these things with logic - but I guess eventually you have to just accept it and realize that it’s not really rational. The brain scan is pretty telling...
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Abandoned.....actually, alcoholism demands so much and takes so much from it's victim (the alcoholic) that it renders them to poor relationship material, in general. When they are called on to live up to the serious responsibilities that a relationship takes....it raises their pressure up to the boiling point.....
They "know" that they can't live up to the demands of a relationship....so, many of them panic and run....and usually throwing blame at the other person while they are going out the door....
Sure, they may, in their heart wish they had a relationship....and, things can go along...so long as the other person is shouldering most of the responsibility or making very few, if any, demands (either vocalized or implied)…..
I think that most of them "know", down deep that they can't handle an equal relationship.....but, just hold on as long as they can...…
After all, who would, in the beginning, say to the other person....."I'm not good relationship material...so, don't ask anything of me, or I will be out the door"......lol.....
It is during that early time that we can , through our rose-colored glasses (bonding hormones and all)….make the assumption that all was "mutual"......
They "know" that they can't live up to the demands of a relationship....so, many of them panic and run....and usually throwing blame at the other person while they are going out the door....
Sure, they may, in their heart wish they had a relationship....and, things can go along...so long as the other person is shouldering most of the responsibility or making very few, if any, demands (either vocalized or implied)…..
I think that most of them "know", down deep that they can't handle an equal relationship.....but, just hold on as long as they can...…
After all, who would, in the beginning, say to the other person....."I'm not good relationship material...so, don't ask anything of me, or I will be out the door"......lol.....
It is during that early time that we can , through our rose-colored glasses (bonding hormones and all)….make the assumption that all was "mutual"......
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Yes - when he said to you "he didn’t feel our personalities were compatible because I’m a rigid thinker and he felt like he had to pretend to be “perfect” around me, and he has a darker personality than me, etc"
What he is really saying is that he cannot perform those responsibilities dandylion mentions (it is implied in a relationship that you have to make some effort!). It's REALLY hard to want to drink all the time and to have all those responsibilities.
Even if you had not expected him to make any changes - drink all you like! That wouldn't have necessarily made a difference. Still they may run for the hills because even if you aren't expecting them to change, they will still feel the responsibility of the relationship.
What he is really saying is that he cannot perform those responsibilities dandylion mentions (it is implied in a relationship that you have to make some effort!). It's REALLY hard to want to drink all the time and to have all those responsibilities.
Even if you had not expected him to make any changes - drink all you like! That wouldn't have necessarily made a difference. Still they may run for the hills because even if you aren't expecting them to change, they will still feel the responsibility of the relationship.
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Originally Posted by Abandoned80 
if only I could go back and tell myself then what I know now. Could have saved myself a lot of heartache!
But since we don't get to, I've eventually come to appreciate what I've learned from those experiences, even if I will never remember the experiences themselves w/any degree of happiness. It took time and distance, though; it didn't happen in a week or a month or even several months.
And just for the absurdity of it all, let me share this: My now-X AH standing in the kitchen during some disagreement, asking me (in all seriousness!) if I wasn't really, deep down, actually GRATEFUL that he was an alcoholic, b/c of all the things I'd gotten to learn b/c of that. I was dumbfounded, needless to say...
Here's something from a book called "A Year to Clear" that I saved b/c it spoke to me. Maybe it'll be helpful to you too.
There is no crash course on how to evolve. You cannot buy clarity and wisdom at the store or manufacture it in a lab or train for it. Life does not always lend itself to being tidied or packaged, and our experiences do not always add up at the end of the day.
Clearing is a journey, not a destination. Even if you don't see the whole picture yet, you have put into motion a powerful new combination of habits that are working, although perhaps quietly behind the scenes.
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honeypig - wow, grateful that he was an alcoholic, that’s a new one! I think on this board that is known as quacking!
Thank you for the quote - it does help to look at it that way. I’ve asked myself several times, why me? Why did I get pulled into this situation and then painfully spit out the other end? Now, even though there were certainly good times in our relationship (enough that I still miss him terribly and no doubt will for some time - I can’t fathom how he apparently doesn’t miss me and was so easily able to just cut me out) - I look back and even the good times now have this dark cloud over them. I can only hope the whole thing has made me somehow stronger - or will at some point, and that it was all part of some larger plan for me.
Thank you for the quote - it does help to look at it that way. I’ve asked myself several times, why me? Why did I get pulled into this situation and then painfully spit out the other end? Now, even though there were certainly good times in our relationship (enough that I still miss him terribly and no doubt will for some time - I can’t fathom how he apparently doesn’t miss me and was so easily able to just cut me out) - I look back and even the good times now have this dark cloud over them. I can only hope the whole thing has made me somehow stronger - or will at some point, and that it was all part of some larger plan for me.
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Originally Posted by Abandoned80
but I feel like he started to resent me for having my sh** together.
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ink-about.html (Being rejected by the reject...another way to think about it.)
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Interesting. I was told the same thing from my XAH. Apparently me drawing the line and having 0% tolerance for anymore drinking is black and white thinking. So be it. He was absolutely destroying our life and was becoming abusive.
On the other side of that, I do think that living with an addict has made me much more black and white. I have absolutely no tolerance for or sympathy for an addict. There. I said it. I am working on my empathy levels, but when you have been burned, it's very hard to find empathy for behavior that absolutely destroys families and loved ones.
When I hear about the drug problems that have overtaken the country, the first thing I think about is not the addict, but the families they are destroying. And one simply has to open their eyes and will see alcoholics all around them. Ugh....
On the other side of that, I do think that living with an addict has made me much more black and white. I have absolutely no tolerance for or sympathy for an addict. There. I said it. I am working on my empathy levels, but when you have been burned, it's very hard to find empathy for behavior that absolutely destroys families and loved ones.
When I hear about the drug problems that have overtaken the country, the first thing I think about is not the addict, but the families they are destroying. And one simply has to open their eyes and will see alcoholics all around them. Ugh....
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After reading these boards it’s pretty amazing how similar many of the stories are. When he broke it off with me it was probably the weirdest most illogical conversation I have ever had - almost surreal that it was how he ended things after so long together. It helps to know that other people have experienced similar and it’s “not just me”. It can really make you question everything and doubt yourself to be told your thinking is the problem.
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Abandoned, it was HUGE for me when I saw how much XAH was like the other alcoholics, how much I was like the other partners/spouses, and how similar our situation was to other situations. It's one of the reasons I tell newcomers to read around the board and not just stay buried in their own thread. That broader perspective is key to starting to make changes, I believe.
If I'd remained trapped in thinking that we were "special snowflakes" that needed our own special solution to the problem, I have no doubt that I'd be right where I was years ago. If I still thought that I needed to understand WHY, I have no doubt I'd be right where I was years ago. It was only once I learned to truly accept that "this is what A's do" and that it didn't make the slightest difference whether I thought I "understood" or not that things started to change for me.
I'm glad you're at that point now too.
If I'd remained trapped in thinking that we were "special snowflakes" that needed our own special solution to the problem, I have no doubt that I'd be right where I was years ago. If I still thought that I needed to understand WHY, I have no doubt I'd be right where I was years ago. It was only once I learned to truly accept that "this is what A's do" and that it didn't make the slightest difference whether I thought I "understood" or not that things started to change for me.
I'm glad you're at that point now too.
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When i read your posts @Abandoned, I feel like i am reading my own lol. It is the exact same thing mine said to me too- how we arent compatible all of sudden (after we were already talking about marriage, mind you)!? how i want to control him and rob him off the one thing he actually ENJOYS in his life, how i am being too responsible (whatever that means) etc etc.
I am thinking, it is like some SCRIPT they all come with. And whats so ironic, they tend to think how their situation is unique and they are so special etc. But the fact is, they are completely CLONES of one another, and in their own narrow and black and white thinking (yes, THEY are the ones with black and white approach, and then they blame US for it). Also, mine sometimes used to blame me for the POSITIVE QUALITIES I HAVE, something of which some other person would be most proud of. it is insane
But even with understanding it is indeed a serious illness, the one thing i cant get past and which makes me SO ******* angry is when they say how we should leave THEM have their own choices. ******* hell. What about OUR CHOICE to have a decent and longterm relationship, to have someone who doesnt drink, to have some meaningful partnership and our own happiness that we also have all the right to have!???? What about our dreams of equal give and take partnerships, of family, of actual LIFE. NO, they tell us how they are entitled to do their own thing, but at the same time, they dont have a problem with including INNOCENT people into their ****** up ways.
Im sorry, i have lost it a bit here lol, but I mean, i even told mine (in a calm manner
) how I respect his choice to drink further, but how ITS NOT OK to include other people in it. You can do whatever, but no one has the right to impose it on others. It goes BOTH ways, im sure.
Well, i hope what i told him sticks with him somewhere in his mind, so one day he understands how his actions affect people around him.
huh this day is tough
I am thinking, it is like some SCRIPT they all come with. And whats so ironic, they tend to think how their situation is unique and they are so special etc. But the fact is, they are completely CLONES of one another, and in their own narrow and black and white thinking (yes, THEY are the ones with black and white approach, and then they blame US for it). Also, mine sometimes used to blame me for the POSITIVE QUALITIES I HAVE, something of which some other person would be most proud of. it is insane
But even with understanding it is indeed a serious illness, the one thing i cant get past and which makes me SO ******* angry is when they say how we should leave THEM have their own choices. ******* hell. What about OUR CHOICE to have a decent and longterm relationship, to have someone who doesnt drink, to have some meaningful partnership and our own happiness that we also have all the right to have!???? What about our dreams of equal give and take partnerships, of family, of actual LIFE. NO, they tell us how they are entitled to do their own thing, but at the same time, they dont have a problem with including INNOCENT people into their ****** up ways.
Im sorry, i have lost it a bit here lol, but I mean, i even told mine (in a calm manner
) how I respect his choice to drink further, but how ITS NOT OK to include other people in it. You can do whatever, but no one has the right to impose it on others. It goes BOTH ways, im sure.Well, i hope what i told him sticks with him somewhere in his mind, so one day he understands how his actions affect people around him.
huh this day is tough
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