Deflecting?
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Deflecting?
I recently posted about my high functioning AH and received some great support so I thought I would ask for some feedback on my current situation. A few days ago I sat my AH down again and said he really needed to get help, that things were slowly getting out of control and that I couldn't stand watching himself drink himself to oblivion every night. He agreed said things needed to change, blah blah blah. He blamed it on how toxic his job was, how much he hates his boss, how much stress he is under as the major bread winner, etc. Now I know he truly has been miserable at work for quite awhile, I have encouraged him to find something new. All of the sudden after that conversation he snapped, went emotionally off the deep end, started that afternoon and the next day saying he couldn't take his job any more, needed to quit, was crying, said he had reached out to a couple of therapists, called HR at work and asked to take a mental health leave, went into a full on breakdown. Two days later we go to dinner, he's calmed down, says his company has agreed to let him take a few weeks off with pay, he has an interview with a new company next week, is feeling better, so wants to celebrate by having 3 large IPA's in an hour at dinner. I am now in the position that he's fragile, I can't say anything now, I have to just sit there and put up with the BS. Then the last 2 nights he's been slurring his words by about 7:30, not usual for him, usually starts after I go to bed. So was his meltdown coincidence? Is he, I'm sure subconsciously, doing this so he doesn't have to address his drinking? He knows he has a problem. He has an appointment with a therapist on Monday so I guess I will see what comes of that. Just looking for thoughts.
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If he is suffering a mental health crisis over his job, literally the worst thing he could be doing is drinking over it. No one ever had a problem in their lives that drinking couldn't make worse.
High-functioning isn't a type of alcoholism, it's a stage. This beast is progressive. This all reads to me like an excuse to keep drinking, and to keep drinking MORE.
But you don't have any control over him and how he chooses to address his problems. What kind of help are you getting for you?
High-functioning isn't a type of alcoholism, it's a stage. This beast is progressive. This all reads to me like an excuse to keep drinking, and to keep drinking MORE.
But you don't have any control over him and how he chooses to address his problems. What kind of help are you getting for you?
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Originally Posted by Nd819 
SparkleKitty, I definitely need help. I have toyed with Alanon and have put it off, maybe because I am not ready to face the reality of my situation? It all just feels like such a punch in the gut.
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Reasons for drinking are driven by emotional factors, usually feelings of helplessness (about whatever in life makes a person feel overwhelmingly trapped). The circumstances promoting his feelings must be very important to him. In this case it appears to be his work.
All addictions are caused/driven by one underlying emotion: intolerable, overwhelming, helplessness (When one feels helpless, they feel trapped, powerless and out of control). Alcoholics, have learned to regain control of their emotions with a quick fix or mood changer of alcohol. Non alcoholics empower themselves and regain control of their emotions by facing them directly or replacing them with some other high value behavior.
Hopefully his therapist will clarify that feeling compelled to use a drug (or any compulsive behavior) arises from important reasons inside people, not from an inanimate bottle or substance! Addictive behaviors are never random, there is always a reason and a reward. There is always a, "Trigger-Behavior-Reward-Repeat.
"No man is free until they master themselves." Epictetus
All addictions are caused/driven by one underlying emotion: intolerable, overwhelming, helplessness (When one feels helpless, they feel trapped, powerless and out of control). Alcoholics, have learned to regain control of their emotions with a quick fix or mood changer of alcohol. Non alcoholics empower themselves and regain control of their emotions by facing them directly or replacing them with some other high value behavior.
Hopefully his therapist will clarify that feeling compelled to use a drug (or any compulsive behavior) arises from important reasons inside people, not from an inanimate bottle or substance! Addictive behaviors are never random, there is always a reason and a reward. There is always a, "Trigger-Behavior-Reward-Repeat.
"No man is free until they master themselves." Epictetus
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As Sparklekitty mentioned, "high functioning" is just a stage.
Apparently that stage is gone.
It's scary for you i'm sure. Is the meltdown a coincidence or not, hard to say, what's driving it, him or the alcohol. It really is impossible to say because it's all one and the same at the moment. Inseparable.
This quote if from your other post. You mentioned then that you didn't' think he was drinking before 6 in the evening, yet you find beer cans under the seat of his car, when do you suppose he is drinking those?
Honestly? The high functioning you are seeing is just a mask for the world in my opinion. Your Husband is drinking A LOT. Alcoholics, generally, don't drink just to have a bit of alcohol fun, he is drinking because A. He is addicted to alcohol and B. It is his way of functioning.
If he manages to beat this addiction it will be an uphill climb for him and he will probably need much more than therapy. Inpatient rehab, AA, lots of support. The facade of "normal" is over now.
There is no use having those conversations with him about drinking, if you could fix this you already would have. You didn't Cause it, can't Control it can't Cure it.
You will need lots of support too. Post here as much as you like, I think Al-Anon would be a great place to start as well. Nothing easy about this.
Apparently that stage is gone.
It's scary for you i'm sure. Is the meltdown a coincidence or not, hard to say, what's driving it, him or the alcohol. It really is impossible to say because it's all one and the same at the moment. Inseparable.
Originally Posted by Nd819
I will find beer cans hidden in the trash, in pockets of his jackets, most recently under the seat of his car, etc. As you can imagine we have had many, many conversations about how much it bothers me.
Honestly? The high functioning you are seeing is just a mask for the world in my opinion. Your Husband is drinking A LOT. Alcoholics, generally, don't drink just to have a bit of alcohol fun, he is drinking because A. He is addicted to alcohol and B. It is his way of functioning.
If he manages to beat this addiction it will be an uphill climb for him and he will probably need much more than therapy. Inpatient rehab, AA, lots of support. The facade of "normal" is over now.
There is no use having those conversations with him about drinking, if you could fix this you already would have. You didn't Cause it, can't Control it can't Cure it.
You will need lots of support too. Post here as much as you like, I think Al-Anon would be a great place to start as well. Nothing easy about this.
.
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Nd....It sounds, to me, like he has you pretty well hoodwinked.
"He is fragile"...."I can't say anything, now"....."I just have to sit there and put up with his Bs....
He has you and his workplace buying the excuse that it is the job causing his alcoholism.....when you know that is not true. Sure--he might be miserable in his job...just like millions of us have been at some time or other...
The alcoholic deals with all uncomfortable feelings by drinking.....because that is what alcoholics do. Drink to cope with feelings. This is not news for anyone...lol...Alcoholics drink because they are alcoholic.
I am guessing that he probably didn't tell the workplace how much he is drinking...and, how long...? Who made the appointment with the therapist---him, or was he referred to this person as part of an employee assistance program?
the reason that I ask is that, while seeing a therapist is fine, in itself....he will need more help than JUST the therapist. Don't get me wrong---therapy is good. But, be aware that there are lots of loopholes in the "I will see a therapist" that the alcoholic can use to pull the wool over the spouse's eyes---because the spouse is usually so eager to hear any murmurings of "help", they get a fresh new surge of Hope.
Here are some of those loopholes----
1. Many therapists are not versed in alcoholism...unless they have been specially trained in addiction. So, the alcoholic can spin them around their little finger.
2. I have never met an alcoholic...and, I have worked with a lot of them...who doesn't minimize their alcoholic use. they will lie to the therapist...because they lie to themselves...
3. Many alcoholics will jump to see a therapist, rather than go to AA or some actual alcoholism program. therefore, they feel that they can avoid the label of "alcoholic" and all that it entails. If they can avoid AA...they can avoid the fact that they are alcoholic---LOL!
4. Yes, he might be depressed or anxious or any number of emotional states...and, seeing a therapist is good...IF...IF...the therapist is schooled in alcoholism and kicks his arse to go to a program...in addition to any other treatment.
5. Alcohol is a well known depressant. treatment and medications don't work as long as the person is ingesting the very thing that brings the depression about....even people who suffer from chronic depression or anxiety are advised to not drink.
You don't have to walk around on eggshells...while he enjoys a "drinking vacation". don't be afraid to be open and honest with him, about your feelings. Nothing you say or do will make a difference to him, in the long run.....but, you don't have to "just sit there".
You can use this time to begin some real, in earnest, work on yourself...and facing the true realities of the situation...
for starters...you might make the boundry of not being around him while he is drinking and slurring his words, etc. Leave the room...leave the house...occupy yourself with some activity...even if it is just cleaning your closets or re-caulking the bathtub....
I do have some suggestions of how you can begin to work on yourself, if you are interested....but, right now, my fingers are getting so tired from typing...lol....
"He is fragile"...."I can't say anything, now"....."I just have to sit there and put up with his Bs....
He has you and his workplace buying the excuse that it is the job causing his alcoholism.....when you know that is not true. Sure--he might be miserable in his job...just like millions of us have been at some time or other...
The alcoholic deals with all uncomfortable feelings by drinking.....because that is what alcoholics do. Drink to cope with feelings. This is not news for anyone...lol...Alcoholics drink because they are alcoholic.
I am guessing that he probably didn't tell the workplace how much he is drinking...and, how long...? Who made the appointment with the therapist---him, or was he referred to this person as part of an employee assistance program?
the reason that I ask is that, while seeing a therapist is fine, in itself....he will need more help than JUST the therapist. Don't get me wrong---therapy is good. But, be aware that there are lots of loopholes in the "I will see a therapist" that the alcoholic can use to pull the wool over the spouse's eyes---because the spouse is usually so eager to hear any murmurings of "help", they get a fresh new surge of Hope.
Here are some of those loopholes----
1. Many therapists are not versed in alcoholism...unless they have been specially trained in addiction. So, the alcoholic can spin them around their little finger.
2. I have never met an alcoholic...and, I have worked with a lot of them...who doesn't minimize their alcoholic use. they will lie to the therapist...because they lie to themselves...
3. Many alcoholics will jump to see a therapist, rather than go to AA or some actual alcoholism program. therefore, they feel that they can avoid the label of "alcoholic" and all that it entails. If they can avoid AA...they can avoid the fact that they are alcoholic---LOL!
4. Yes, he might be depressed or anxious or any number of emotional states...and, seeing a therapist is good...IF...IF...the therapist is schooled in alcoholism and kicks his arse to go to a program...in addition to any other treatment.
5. Alcohol is a well known depressant. treatment and medications don't work as long as the person is ingesting the very thing that brings the depression about....even people who suffer from chronic depression or anxiety are advised to not drink.
You don't have to walk around on eggshells...while he enjoys a "drinking vacation". don't be afraid to be open and honest with him, about your feelings. Nothing you say or do will make a difference to him, in the long run.....but, you don't have to "just sit there".
You can use this time to begin some real, in earnest, work on yourself...and facing the true realities of the situation...
for starters...you might make the boundry of not being around him while he is drinking and slurring his words, etc. Leave the room...leave the house...occupy yourself with some activity...even if it is just cleaning your closets or re-caulking the bathtub....
I do have some suggestions of how you can begin to work on yourself, if you are interested....but, right now, my fingers are getting so tired from typing...lol....
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"I am now in the position that he's fragile, I can't say anything now, I have to just sit there and put up with the BS."
Many alcoholics use the "victim mentality" to justify their drinking. My qualifier sure did. I can't even tell you how much time I spent listening to his boo-hooing between chugs from a beer can.
You are a person, too. You matter. You didn't cause it, can't control it, and can't cure it. You can say whatever you want. You do not have to sit there and put up with anything. You can have boundaries.
I hope you'll find a way to take up space. You're entitled to it!
Many alcoholics use the "victim mentality" to justify their drinking. My qualifier sure did. I can't even tell you how much time I spent listening to his boo-hooing between chugs from a beer can.
You are a person, too. You matter. You didn't cause it, can't control it, and can't cure it. You can say whatever you want. You do not have to sit there and put up with anything. You can have boundaries.
I hope you'll find a way to take up space. You're entitled to it!
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Join Date: Nov 2016
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All I want is a little relief!
Justification of addictive behavior is often self-pitying and subtly manipulative. The addict feels victimized, perhaps even martyred by what he believes to be the unfair circumstances of his existence and seeks consolation from his addiction. He believes himself thereby an exception and entitled to special treatment, including remission or at least mitigation of the sins caused by his addictive behavior. The prospect of giving up his addiction or, even worse, having it taken away from him by the unsympathetic demands and requirements of others fills him with horror and indignation. Blind to the fact that it is his addiction and its consequences that are making him miserable, he falsely believes that the addiction is the only source of comfort and security available to him in a cruel, cruel world.
Excuses Alcoholics Make
Justification of addictive behavior is often self-pitying and subtly manipulative. The addict feels victimized, perhaps even martyred by what he believes to be the unfair circumstances of his existence and seeks consolation from his addiction. He believes himself thereby an exception and entitled to special treatment, including remission or at least mitigation of the sins caused by his addictive behavior. The prospect of giving up his addiction or, even worse, having it taken away from him by the unsympathetic demands and requirements of others fills him with horror and indignation. Blind to the fact that it is his addiction and its consequences that are making him miserable, he falsely believes that the addiction is the only source of comfort and security available to him in a cruel, cruel world.
Excuses Alcoholics Make
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[QUOTE=trailmix;7312340]All I want is a little relief!
Justification of addictive behavior is often self-pitying and subtly manipulative. The addict feels victimized, perhaps even martyred by what he believes to be the unfair circumstances of his existence and seeks consolation from his addiction. He believes himself thereby an exception and entitled to special treatment, including remission or at least mitigation of the sins caused by his addictive behavior. The prospect of giving up his addiction or, even worse, having it taken away from him by the unsympathetic demands and requirements of others fills him with horror and indignation. Blind to the fact that it is his addiction and its consequences that are making him miserable, he falsely believes that the addiction is the only source of comfort and security available to him in a cruel, cruel world.
This really hits the nail on the head! It used to be my fault he drank, I didn't stroke his ego enough, then he moved on to one thing or another and now it's settled on his job.
Justification of addictive behavior is often self-pitying and subtly manipulative. The addict feels victimized, perhaps even martyred by what he believes to be the unfair circumstances of his existence and seeks consolation from his addiction. He believes himself thereby an exception and entitled to special treatment, including remission or at least mitigation of the sins caused by his addictive behavior. The prospect of giving up his addiction or, even worse, having it taken away from him by the unsympathetic demands and requirements of others fills him with horror and indignation. Blind to the fact that it is his addiction and its consequences that are making him miserable, he falsely believes that the addiction is the only source of comfort and security available to him in a cruel, cruel world.
This really hits the nail on the head! It used to be my fault he drank, I didn't stroke his ego enough, then he moved on to one thing or another and now it's settled on his job.
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Ugh Nd. It sounds like things are progressing in a pretty classic way for your AH.
As others have said, you can't do much about him and his alcoholism. No matter what you do or don't do, the alcohol is his to deal with. As much as you don't want to go to Alanon, no doubt, he doesn't want to go to AA nor stop drinking.
Please start taking what ever teeny steps you can to take care of yourself and learn to focus on the elements of the situation you can change. Posting here is one of those steps towards working on yourself. Alanon certainly isn't for everyone but for some it is a life saver.
Let us know how you are getting on . . . emphasis here is on you not your husband. He will do what alcoholics do.
As others have said, you can't do much about him and his alcoholism. No matter what you do or don't do, the alcohol is his to deal with. As much as you don't want to go to Alanon, no doubt, he doesn't want to go to AA nor stop drinking.
Please start taking what ever teeny steps you can to take care of yourself and learn to focus on the elements of the situation you can change. Posting here is one of those steps towards working on yourself. Alanon certainly isn't for everyone but for some it is a life saver.
Let us know how you are getting on . . . emphasis here is on you not your husband. He will do what alcoholics do.
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Speaking as an alcoholic in recovery (28 years), he doesn't drink because of his job, mood or because it's Monday. He drinks because he's an alcoholic and he can't stop. Or doesn't want to. Whatever. Ditto what has been said above: an alcoholic will only stop drinking because he/she wants to. I'm so sorry you're in such pain, Alanon was a life-saver for me.
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While I respect what you are saying, this is not always true. I think I knew my marriage was over when my XAH told a therapist he drinks because he "gets bored." Here I had made excuses for him, tried to figure it all out, tried to support him, but he was "bored."
There is not always some big deep reasoning. Sometimes an addict is an addict just because that is who they are. And sure, if they are willing to put in serious work, every single day, they can overcome it. Only that individual can decide that.
What we can do is get support (this forum, Alanon, Celebrate Recovery, therapy, etc) so that we can be the best we can be.
There is not always some big deep reasoning. Sometimes an addict is an addict just because that is who they are. And sure, if they are willing to put in serious work, every single day, they can overcome it. Only that individual can decide that.
What we can do is get support (this forum, Alanon, Celebrate Recovery, therapy, etc) so that we can be the best we can be.
Originally Posted by CRRHCC
Reasons for drinking are driven by emotional factors, usually feelings of helplessness (about whatever in life makes a person feel overwhelmingly trapped). The circumstances promoting his feelings must be very important to him. In this case it appears to be his work.
All addictions are caused/driven by one underlying emotion: intolerable, overwhelming, helplessness (When one feels helpless, they feel trapped, powerless and out of control). Alcoholics, have learned to regain control of their emotions with a quick fix or mood changer of alcohol. Non alcoholics empower themselves and regain control of their emotions by facing them directly or replacing them with some other high value behavior.
Hopefully his therapist will clarify that feeling compelled to use a drug (or any compulsive behavior) arises from important reasons inside people, not from an inanimate bottle or substance! Addictive behaviors are never random, there is always a reason and a reward. There is always a, "Trigger-Behavior-Reward-Repeat.
"No man is free until they master themselves." Epictetus
All addictions are caused/driven by one underlying emotion: intolerable, overwhelming, helplessness (When one feels helpless, they feel trapped, powerless and out of control). Alcoholics, have learned to regain control of their emotions with a quick fix or mood changer of alcohol. Non alcoholics empower themselves and regain control of their emotions by facing them directly or replacing them with some other high value behavior.
Hopefully his therapist will clarify that feeling compelled to use a drug (or any compulsive behavior) arises from important reasons inside people, not from an inanimate bottle or substance! Addictive behaviors are never random, there is always a reason and a reward. There is always a, "Trigger-Behavior-Reward-Repeat.
"No man is free until they master themselves." Epictetus
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My XAH used to manipulate us into leaving him alone by creating a crisis that would scare us into compliance. His big one with me was attempting suicide - I was trying to have us sit down and discuss a budget, and he got up from the table and marched out to the garage and pretended to hang himself, gave himself a giant scar across his neck. It was brutal, I was terrified, and it worked. It bought him about another year with me walking on eggshells before I realized how much he was hiding from me, including what he was spending monthly at the liquor store.
Other tactics: being so mean and rude that I would keep a distance so he could drink in peace; creating an argument out of thin air that would give him a reason to not talk to me; leaving the house and not telling anyone where he was and when he came home we were so grateful he was alive and penitent that we said nothing; leaving for days at a time; keeping all vested parties from talking to each other so we couldn't compare notes about what he was up to; sleeping on the couch so he could drink in peace when I was in bed asleep. Through all of it, he blamed me, he told me his parents were the worst and couldn't be trusted, he told his parents I was the worst and couldn't be trusted, he threw me under the bus to my mother saying I couldn't be trusted. By the end we were all squabbling with each other and in the center of it all was him, drunk.
Other tactics: being so mean and rude that I would keep a distance so he could drink in peace; creating an argument out of thin air that would give him a reason to not talk to me; leaving the house and not telling anyone where he was and when he came home we were so grateful he was alive and penitent that we said nothing; leaving for days at a time; keeping all vested parties from talking to each other so we couldn't compare notes about what he was up to; sleeping on the couch so he could drink in peace when I was in bed asleep. Through all of it, he blamed me, he told me his parents were the worst and couldn't be trusted, he told his parents I was the worst and couldn't be trusted, he threw me under the bus to my mother saying I couldn't be trusted. By the end we were all squabbling with each other and in the center of it all was him, drunk.
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Florence, I feel for you. My XAH also threatened suicide many times, this holding me emotionally hostage. It was not until I had the education and knowledge that if he did do such a thing, it was not my fault. Low and behold, we are now divorced, and he is still kicking.....
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I sat my AH down again and said he really needed to get help,
Looking back, I can see now this never worked. It felt like progress at the time yet it simply kept me entangled in something I couldn't change. Alcoholism treatment is counter-intuitive.
Al-Anon has helped.
There are many paths to healing. Yoga, meditation, women's resource centers, etc. have been a part of mine. I'm very glad Al-Anon has, too!
Whatever, wherever your path leads, we're here for you. Keep posting. Hang in there!! You are important and deserve the best life has to offer.
Looking back, I can see now this never worked. It felt like progress at the time yet it simply kept me entangled in something I couldn't change. Alcoholism treatment is counter-intuitive.
Al-Anon has helped.
There are many paths to healing. Yoga, meditation, women's resource centers, etc. have been a part of mine. I'm very glad Al-Anon has, too!
Whatever, wherever your path leads, we're here for you. Keep posting. Hang in there!! You are important and deserve the best life has to offer.
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Originally Posted by hopeful4
Florence, I feel for you. My XAH also threatened suicide many times, this holding me emotionally hostage. It was not until I had the education and knowledge that if he did do such a thing, it was not my fault. Low and behold, we are now divorced, and he is still kicking.....
What I found for myself, and the story I see folks here telling over and over, is that when they manage to shed the A, the A moves on to new enablers and keeps going more or less uninterrupted.
Better to let go than be dragged.
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Nd819
I am now in the position that he's fragile, I can't say anything now, I have to just sit there and put up with the BS.
NO you don’t!! This is an alcoholic taking back the upper hand in the relationship. They will do it any time they feel you are threatening to come between them and their alcohol. Heaven forbid that you have feelings, needs or worries too. My AH did this constantly, and I, being the sweet little codependent I was, fell right back in line every time. Sometimes without me even realizing it till weeks later, like “hey, wait, what just happened here?”
Please don’t be as easily fooled as me, I’ve wasted years on this crazy train. Act now before things get worse, and they will get worse.
I am now in the position that he's fragile, I can't say anything now, I have to just sit there and put up with the BS.
NO you don’t!! This is an alcoholic taking back the upper hand in the relationship. They will do it any time they feel you are threatening to come between them and their alcohol. Heaven forbid that you have feelings, needs or worries too. My AH did this constantly, and I, being the sweet little codependent I was, fell right back in line every time. Sometimes without me even realizing it till weeks later, like “hey, wait, what just happened here?”
Please don’t be as easily fooled as me, I’ve wasted years on this crazy train. Act now before things get worse, and they will get worse.
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Originally Posted by hopeful4
While I respect what you are saying, this is not always true. I think I knew my marriage was over when my XAH told a therapist he drinks because he "gets bored." Here I had made excuses for him, tried to figure it all out, tried to support him, but he was "bored."
There is not always some big deep reasoning. Sometimes an addict is an addict just because that is who they are. And sure, if they are willing to put in serious work, every single day, they can overcome it. Only that individual can decide that.
What we can do is get support (this forum, Alanon, Celebrate Recovery, therapy, etc) so that we can be the best we can be.
There is not always some big deep reasoning. Sometimes an addict is an addict just because that is who they are. And sure, if they are willing to put in serious work, every single day, they can overcome it. Only that individual can decide that.
What we can do is get support (this forum, Alanon, Celebrate Recovery, therapy, etc) so that we can be the best we can be.
"There is not always some big deep reasoning. Sometimes an addict is an addict just because that is who they are.."
Very true, there is not always a deep reason but there is a reason. Anybody who drinks, moderate or abusive, drinks for a reason (reward). Dr. Jud Brewer talks about, Trigger-Behavior-Reward-Repeat in his book the Craving Mind. Lance Dodes, MD, in his three books says addiction is a behavior that always serves and emotional purpose and the purpose is to reverse feelings of helplessness. In the book the Freedom Model, the authors talk about the PDP principal says that all human behavior is driven by the pursuit of happiness and that, when you choose to do something, you do so because you see it as your best available option. This concept is important because the only way you will stop desiring heavy substances and change your behavior is by seeing more happiness in the change than in the using. Happiness is a reason. All these addiction authors and experts, make sense to me. It's all about basic human psychology, free will choice, new thinking, motivation, values, purpose and understanding how to make your emotions work for you and not against you.
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