FINALLY feeling at peace with saying all I can say
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FINALLY feeling at peace with saying all I can say
We're 4+ weeks into AH not drinking. Yesterday on a 5 hour drive home from out of town I spent 3 of those hours reading aloud to him a book on alcoholism which from my perspective explains so well that he falls under the umbrella of an alcoholic. He agreed that much of what I read aloud did apply to him and said he understood where I was coming from.
He's still making it very clear that he's not completely convinced inside himself that he cannot commit to 'drinking sometimes' and 'always in moderation' because he keeps saying up until now he's never been more serious about changing his alcohol habits. And he's wanting me to give him another chance, one more chance, to allow him to try and/or fail so that he's sure inside himself that he falls under this alcoholic category and then he'll know it's best that he should just give it up altogether. Not just because I'm threatening to leave him, but because he now knows he simply cannot handle it because he has this disease.
I told him that I've put in enough time with him these past 10 years making promises, having heart to heart conversations about how he's going to change and promising he won't disappointment again and me believing him just to have him screw up and start the cycle over again that I just don't have it in me to give him this one more time. I told him that I know all of those mornings we had serious conversations about him changing and making better choices that he MEANT what he was saying at the time, he was not blowing smoke, he's given it a good honest try SO MANY TIMES and the only reason this is different is because I'm finally done giving him chances which has somehow allowed him to open his mind to the possibility that he is an alcoholic.
He seems to be convinced that he needs to prove it to himself one more time that he can/can't do this and either way, if he can I'm going to be stuck back where we were always wondering if he's drinking more than he says, lying to me about whether or not he's drank, sneaking drinks, etc. and I just cannot do it anymore. I told him this and he says he understands completely why and how I'd feel that way and apologizes once again for destroying my trust.
I just don't know how marriages come back from something like this if his choice is to drink again... I know he's an A, even if it worked for a period of time I'll always end up disappointed. Unless he chooses to just give it up, our relationship won't work.
He says he's still using this time to evaluate his feelings on all of this. That he's not sure even now that he wants to go back to drinking because he's afraid he won't be able to moderate. That he's scared he's an A and that he doesn't want to fail with me and then ruin his life as he has it now just to end up down the road with someone else and have the same problems.
I made it clear once again that I'll give him the space (away from us) to figure all of this out if he wants to 'try' to moderate, but I cannot handle putting myself willingly back into that situation. And of course he says he's not interested in this plan because it's not 'real life' if we separate and he tries it on his own.
Catch 22 here.
Thanks for listening, that's my update. No idea what's going to happen. I know he's happier not drinking, he says so himself that he sees a difference in our day to day lives. Everyone is happier, and there's no emotional rollercoaster for me to ride.
He's still making it very clear that he's not completely convinced inside himself that he cannot commit to 'drinking sometimes' and 'always in moderation' because he keeps saying up until now he's never been more serious about changing his alcohol habits. And he's wanting me to give him another chance, one more chance, to allow him to try and/or fail so that he's sure inside himself that he falls under this alcoholic category and then he'll know it's best that he should just give it up altogether. Not just because I'm threatening to leave him, but because he now knows he simply cannot handle it because he has this disease.
I told him that I've put in enough time with him these past 10 years making promises, having heart to heart conversations about how he's going to change and promising he won't disappointment again and me believing him just to have him screw up and start the cycle over again that I just don't have it in me to give him this one more time. I told him that I know all of those mornings we had serious conversations about him changing and making better choices that he MEANT what he was saying at the time, he was not blowing smoke, he's given it a good honest try SO MANY TIMES and the only reason this is different is because I'm finally done giving him chances which has somehow allowed him to open his mind to the possibility that he is an alcoholic.
He seems to be convinced that he needs to prove it to himself one more time that he can/can't do this and either way, if he can I'm going to be stuck back where we were always wondering if he's drinking more than he says, lying to me about whether or not he's drank, sneaking drinks, etc. and I just cannot do it anymore. I told him this and he says he understands completely why and how I'd feel that way and apologizes once again for destroying my trust.
I just don't know how marriages come back from something like this if his choice is to drink again... I know he's an A, even if it worked for a period of time I'll always end up disappointed. Unless he chooses to just give it up, our relationship won't work.
He says he's still using this time to evaluate his feelings on all of this. That he's not sure even now that he wants to go back to drinking because he's afraid he won't be able to moderate. That he's scared he's an A and that he doesn't want to fail with me and then ruin his life as he has it now just to end up down the road with someone else and have the same problems.
I made it clear once again that I'll give him the space (away from us) to figure all of this out if he wants to 'try' to moderate, but I cannot handle putting myself willingly back into that situation. And of course he says he's not interested in this plan because it's not 'real life' if we separate and he tries it on his own.
Catch 22 here.
Thanks for listening, that's my update. No idea what's going to happen. I know he's happier not drinking, he says so himself that he sees a difference in our day to day lives. Everyone is happier, and there's no emotional rollercoaster for me to ride.
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I wonder if he's ever stopped to think that they very fact that he's struggling with the idea of straight up give up drinking to save his marriage speaks volumes that he is, in fact, an alcoholic. Denile....it ain't just a river in Egypt.
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Well, it's good that you talked about it again I suppose?
Do you see what he is saying though, I mean truly?
Your boundary is, you will not live with him if he chooses to drink. period.
"he's still using this time to evaluate his feelings on all of this"
Translation: I hope if I drag this out long enough and talk about it enough she will agree I should give this moderating a try (again) hoping you will eventually see his side and he will be able to drink.
"That he's not sure even now that he wants to go back to drinking because he's afraid he won't be able to moderate".
This has nothing to do with you at all. He is not even considering you in this part of it. You have been clear about the whole "moderation" thing. He's already thinking past that.
"he's scared he's an A and that he doesn't want to fail with me and then ruin his life as he has it now just to end up down the road with someone else and have the same problems".
Excuse me? He's worried that his next relationship with another woman could be ruined by alcohol too.
Are you kidding me.
While all of his "thoughtfulness" may seem encouraging at best, honest at least, it all sounds very disingenuous to me. He is making it sound like he has been thinking this through and looking at all angles and etc etc
All I hear is - I really need a drink.
Do you see what he is saying though, I mean truly?
Your boundary is, you will not live with him if he chooses to drink. period.
"he's still using this time to evaluate his feelings on all of this"
Translation: I hope if I drag this out long enough and talk about it enough she will agree I should give this moderating a try (again) hoping you will eventually see his side and he will be able to drink.
"That he's not sure even now that he wants to go back to drinking because he's afraid he won't be able to moderate".
This has nothing to do with you at all. He is not even considering you in this part of it. You have been clear about the whole "moderation" thing. He's already thinking past that.
"he's scared he's an A and that he doesn't want to fail with me and then ruin his life as he has it now just to end up down the road with someone else and have the same problems".
Excuse me? He's worried that his next relationship with another woman could be ruined by alcohol too.
Are you kidding me.
While all of his "thoughtfulness" may seem encouraging at best, honest at least, it all sounds very disingenuous to me. He is making it sound like he has been thinking this through and looking at all angles and etc etc
All I hear is - I really need a drink.
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Originally Posted by LovePeaceSushi 
I wonder if he's ever stopped to think that they very fact that he's struggling with the idea of straight up give up drinking to save his marriage speaks volumes that he is, in fact, an alcoholic. Denile....it ain't just a river in Egypt.
I'm not going to tell him what he wants to hear, that sure we'll give it another try. I know that's what he wants to hear, it would be too damaging to me at this point. And his honest response is that 'he's not sure this is going to turn out like either of us want'... whatever that means.
Clearly he's wrestling with this in his head and that's a lot further than we've ever gotten before so I'll take it. If he chooses the drinking route, so be it. I'm done with my partner/spouse relationship resolving around alcohol, I deserve more.
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Originally Posted by fortworthnative
And his honest response is that 'he's not sure this is going to turn out like either of us want'... whatever that means.
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Originally Posted by trailmix
Well, it's good that you talked about it again I suppose?
Do you see what he is saying though, I mean truly?
Your boundary is, you will not live with him if he chooses to drink. period.
"he's still using this time to evaluate his feelings on all of this"
Translation: I hope if I drag this out long enough and talk about it enough she will agree I should give this moderating a try (again) hoping you will eventually see his side and he will be able to drink.
"That he's not sure even now that he wants to go back to drinking because he's afraid he won't be able to moderate".
This has nothing to do with you at all. He is not even considering you in this part of it. You have been clear about the whole "moderation" thing. He's already thinking past that.
"he's scared he's an A and that he doesn't want to fail with me and then ruin his life as he has it now just to end up down the road with someone else and have the same problems".
Excuse me? He's worried that his next relationship with another woman could be ruined by alcohol too.
Are you kidding me.
While all of his "thoughtfulness" may seem encouraging at best, honest at least, it all sounds very disingenuous to me. He is making it sound like he has been thinking this through and looking at all angles and etc etc
All I hear is - I really need a drink.
Do you see what he is saying though, I mean truly?
Your boundary is, you will not live with him if he chooses to drink. period.
"he's still using this time to evaluate his feelings on all of this"
Translation: I hope if I drag this out long enough and talk about it enough she will agree I should give this moderating a try (again) hoping you will eventually see his side and he will be able to drink.
"That he's not sure even now that he wants to go back to drinking because he's afraid he won't be able to moderate".
This has nothing to do with you at all. He is not even considering you in this part of it. You have been clear about the whole "moderation" thing. He's already thinking past that.
"he's scared he's an A and that he doesn't want to fail with me and then ruin his life as he has it now just to end up down the road with someone else and have the same problems".
Excuse me? He's worried that his next relationship with another woman could be ruined by alcohol too.
Are you kidding me.
While all of his "thoughtfulness" may seem encouraging at best, honest at least, it all sounds very disingenuous to me. He is making it sound like he has been thinking this through and looking at all angles and etc etc
All I hear is - I really need a drink.
Your translations are spot on, truly. He's in complete denial. And I guess all I'm doing at this point is waiting for him to finally choose to go ahead and keep alcohol in his life?? I guess that's what I'm doing here huh. That's definitely where it sounds like this is headed.
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The ability to find new ways to say “yeah but this time I really mean it” in ways that sound convincing (to others and to themselves) still impresses me. I am glad for your sake you are seeing this as yet another “give me one more chance” speech, with an interesting added twist of “give me one more chance to keep you AND keep drinking.”
I feel like it’s a pretty common manipulation to admit more, and trying to parlay that into another shot when you have run out. Mine once admitted his conduct toward me was awful and that he understood it had been emotionally abusive and he wasn’t sure why I hadn’t left him already. That was the day I met him at the rehab and reiterated what I had told him right before he went in that we were over, right after I told him I wanted a divorce. Once the “admission” didn’t work he went right back to blaming me for abandoning the marriage.
Good for your for being strong for yourself and your kiddos. It sounds like you know exactly where this path leads if you buy his line. You may be in for one more round either way if you stay (it sounds like he is going to drink again eventually even if he can’t get your blessing to try ooooooone more time to moderate), but holding firm will make it crystal clear what is up if and when that happens.
I feel like it’s a pretty common manipulation to admit more, and trying to parlay that into another shot when you have run out. Mine once admitted his conduct toward me was awful and that he understood it had been emotionally abusive and he wasn’t sure why I hadn’t left him already. That was the day I met him at the rehab and reiterated what I had told him right before he went in that we were over, right after I told him I wanted a divorce. Once the “admission” didn’t work he went right back to blaming me for abandoning the marriage.
Good for your for being strong for yourself and your kiddos. It sounds like you know exactly where this path leads if you buy his line. You may be in for one more round either way if you stay (it sounds like he is going to drink again eventually even if he can’t get your blessing to try ooooooone more time to moderate), but holding firm will make it crystal clear what is up if and when that happens.
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Originally Posted by DiggingForFire
The ability to find new ways to say “yeah but this time I really mean it” in ways that sound convincing (to others and to themselves) still impresses me. I am glad for your sake you are seeing this as yet another “give me one more chance” speech, with an interesting added twist of “give me one more chance to keep you AND keep drinking.”
I feel like it’s a pretty common manipulation to admit more, and trying to parlay that into another shot when you have run out. Mine once admitted his conduct toward me was awful and that he understood it had been emotionally abusive and he wasn’t sure why I hadn’t left him already. That was the day I met him at the rehab and reiterated what I had told him right before he went in that we were over, right after I told him I wanted a divorce. Once the “admission” didn’t work he went right back to blaming me for abandoning the marriage.
Good for your for being strong for yourself and your kiddos. It sounds like you know exactly where this path leads if you buy his line. You may be in for one more round either way if you stay (it sounds like he is going to drink again eventually even if he can’t get your blessing to try ooooooone more time to moderate), but holding firm will make it crystal clear what is up if and when that happens.
I feel like it’s a pretty common manipulation to admit more, and trying to parlay that into another shot when you have run out. Mine once admitted his conduct toward me was awful and that he understood it had been emotionally abusive and he wasn’t sure why I hadn’t left him already. That was the day I met him at the rehab and reiterated what I had told him right before he went in that we were over, right after I told him I wanted a divorce. Once the “admission” didn’t work he went right back to blaming me for abandoning the marriage.
Good for your for being strong for yourself and your kiddos. It sounds like you know exactly where this path leads if you buy his line. You may be in for one more round either way if you stay (it sounds like he is going to drink again eventually even if he can’t get your blessing to try ooooooone more time to moderate), but holding firm will make it crystal clear what is up if and when that happens.
I did tell my dad just yesterday morning before we left their house that I don't want him to be surprised if I leave my AH in the next couple of months, that things are good right now and he's not drinking but I've drawn a hard line and I'm not giving in. He's 100% supportive. Funny he keeps asking me if I'm sure alcohol is our 'only' problem, making sure it's not also women or money etc. and I guess from the mind of someone who hasn't learned about this yes, it's our 'only' problem but it's a BIG one.
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Originally Posted by fortworthnative
And I guess all I'm doing at this point is waiting for him to finally choose to go ahead and keep alcohol in his life?? I guess that's what I'm doing here huh. That's definitely where it sounds like this is headed.
I think in a way, after years of this, you have probably become a bit numb to it and why wouldn't you? A person can only put up with the BS for so long before they start to build their own defenses. It's self protection and that's normal if not particularly helpful when the time has come, perhaps, to jump ship.
Whether you choose to have him leave now or you choose to wait until he drinks, well that is most certainly up to you, but I would bet my next paycheque he is going to drink.
I hate it for you. I am not a soothsayer and I could be wrong and I hope I am, but all signs point to him drinking.
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I'm going to be a little crass here...
Replace the phrase "drink with them" with the phrase "visit prostitutes with them". Just because someone else is visiting a prostitute doesn't mean you have to participate. And just because someone is drinking doesn't mean you have to join in. You have made it quite clear how his drinking has eroded your trust and your marriage, and still he wants to sacrifice that for a drink with the guys.
The fact that he has turned alcohol has turned into some sort of god does not bode well. When I read your thread, I just can't help but think of second commandment "Thou shalt not have false gods before me." He's got the alcohol holding him in its thrall.
He even said so the other day, that one day he's going to have some event with the guys and say 'screw it' and go out and drink with them because he cannot give up alcohol just because I want him to, that he has to be convinced in his own mind that he's an A with this 'one more try' thing he's trying to get me to agree to.
The fact that he has turned alcohol has turned into some sort of god does not bode well. When I read your thread, I just can't help but think of second commandment "Thou shalt not have false gods before me." He's got the alcohol holding him in its thrall.
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Chapter 3 - Big Book of AA
More about alcoholism
Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics.
No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows.
Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people.
The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker.
The persistence of this illusion is astonishing.
Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.
https://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt3.pdf
More about alcoholism
Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics.
No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows.
Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people.
The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker.
The persistence of this illusion is astonishing.
Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.
https://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt3.pdf
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Originally Posted by LovePeaceSushi
I wonder if he's ever stopped to think that they very fact that he's struggling with the idea of straight up give up drinking to save his marriage speaks volumes that he is, in fact, an alcoholic. Denile....it ain't just a river in Egypt.
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fwn…...He is on a "fools journey"....and, you, now, know it.
You, thankfully,, have got your boundary to protect your own mental health...and, your plan. You know that you can't live with his drinking, under any circumstance.
There is nothing more for you to do.....
You will not convince him of anything, if you talk until you are purple in the face. It simply cannot be done.
***His defense that trying to moderate or quit drinking while out of the house, in his "own space" is "not real life".....is the biggest crock of BS ! All that he is saying is that he wants to stay and have his own way....for his own desires....
Real Life is wherever one finds themselves.
You, thankfully,, have got your boundary to protect your own mental health...and, your plan. You know that you can't live with his drinking, under any circumstance.
There is nothing more for you to do.....
You will not convince him of anything, if you talk until you are purple in the face. It simply cannot be done.
***His defense that trying to moderate or quit drinking while out of the house, in his "own space" is "not real life".....is the biggest crock of BS ! All that he is saying is that he wants to stay and have his own way....for his own desires....
Real Life is wherever one finds themselves.
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He may not be drinking, but he is definitely in relapse mode.
After all the talking you have done, his action is to equivocate.
He may never accept he has a problem, many don't. Or they
do, stay sober for a period of time and drink again. It's a daily,
sometimes hourly, sometimes minute to minute decision,
for the rest of their lives that they alone control.
After all the talking you have done, his action is to equivocate.
He may never accept he has a problem, many don't. Or they
do, stay sober for a period of time and drink again. It's a daily,
sometimes hourly, sometimes minute to minute decision,
for the rest of their lives that they alone control.
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Originally Posted by fortworthnative
He's still making it very clear that he's not completely convinced inside himself that he cannot commit to 'drinking sometimes' and 'always in moderation' because he keeps saying up until now he's never been more serious about changing his alcohol habits. And he's wanting me to give him another chance, one more chance, to allow him to try and/or fail so that he's sure inside himself that he falls under this alcoholic category and then he'll know it's best that he should just give it up altogether.
He seems to be convinced that he needs to prove it to himself one more time that he can/can't do this and either way, if he can I'm going to be stuck back where we were always wondering if he's drinking more than he says, lying to me about whether or not he's drank, sneaking drinks, etc. and I just cannot do it anymore. I told him this and he says he understands completely why and how I'd feel that way and apologizes once again for destroying my trust.
He says he's still using this time to evaluate his feelings on all of this. That he's not sure even now that he wants to go back to drinking because he's afraid he won't be able to moderate. That he's scared he's an A and that he doesn't want to fail with me and then ruin his life as he has it now just to end up down the road with someone else and have the same problems.
It's not 'real life' if we separate and he tries it on his own.
"I'm not going to stop drinking. Here are eight million incoherent and misleading musings about how I'm not going to stop drinking".
And that last sentence - what does he mean, it's not "real life" if you separate? It's only "real" if you don't separate? I can't even ...
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