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Co-Parenting Plan No Longer Works, Legal Limbo, Need Advice

Old 08-23-2019, 11:41 AM
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Co-Parenting Plan No Longer Works, Legal Limbo, Need Advice

Longtime lurker, but I rarely post any more because I am long-divorced from my XAH and we have for many years had a functional co-parenting plan for DD8 that resulted from the divorce. I'm writing this up to ask for some insight and to tell me if there is some legal/rhetorical strategy I'm not seeing.

The current visitation plan is that all of his visitation must be supervised, his parents are the supervisors, he cannot drive her anywhere, he has no extended time visits and the longest visit is about two overnights at a time.

My ex is as bad an alcoholic as it gets. He's 41, unemployed and declining for the better part of the decade, a drink-vodka-to-live kind of guy. We have shared custody -- I have custodial rights and basically do everything -- with him responsible for paying support and visiting her on scheduled visits. His parents, the supervisors are elderly, rich and live in a big house. He lives in their basement, in a locked bedroom, doing god knows what 24 hours a day, and comes out to eat, to go to the bathroom, and when he has his regularly scheduled visitations with DD8. His parents pay his child support every month. His parents are 100% responsible for carrying out the parenting plan and have taken all duties from him. They have taken over all of his personal responsibilities and saved him from legal consequences for 25 years. Which puts me in a bind, legally, because "he" is exercising his visitation plans flawlessly, even though it's obvious to anyone with eyes that he is going downhill and his parents are doing everything for him.

They have a unified front and have told me that XAH is not drinking - he's practically a saint! - so I have been unable to accurately or deeply gauge my daughter's risk levels as she's been going over there for the last five years or so. I have sat on my hands, let a good thing be, and minded my own business. As long as my daughter is okay, I let it go. Not my circus. She has developed some anxiety for which I have us seeing a regular counselor, but there have been no incidents of abuse or neglect that I can see that would indicate a clear and obvious need for a petition for change of custody.

This Monday, he had a big "medical incident" that rocked me. His dad called me Monday night because there was no way we could have our regular Tuesday visit because he was hospitalized. It gave me a real glimpse of what is going on and I think it's very concerning. XAH had a seizure resulting from delerium tremens. The hospital didn't even bother to do any scans because ultimately the issue is he's an alcoholic and needs to be in inpatient rehab. I visited him in the hospital so I could assess what was happening, and because I still care for his family even if I think they are delusional. He looks like hell, he is clearly declining.

Ultimately, the picture that I gathered confirms that not only is he definitely not sober, he probably never was. So either he and his parents are lying to me, or they aren't capable of seeing him as he is, which is just as bad to me, since they're the supervisors. I spoke with them several times this week and heard all kinds of excuses and bargaining as to why I shouldn't interrupt or change our visitation agreement, even though my ultimate concern is safety. Is a person who has alcoholic seizures "safe" to parent? Their argument is that I can't prove he's been drinking during visitations. So okay, the story is that he quits drinking for her visits.... so he's in withdrawl the whole time she's there? This is when seizures happen???

She is patently not safe with him - and with granpda being a former cop and grandma being a former teacher, both "mandatory reporters" for the welfare of children, I am genuinely shocked that they disagree that a man who has seizures from his alcoholism is not safe to take care of their granddaughter. I shouldn't be shocked, but I am shocked. My god.

Their current plan is that he will "probably" go into a 21 day inpatient program next week. After that? Who knows? They are expecting me to go right back to the regular visitation plan, with XAH and DD8 sharing a bedroom in the basement - the one they just had to break into to perform lifesaving measures on XAH during his withdrawl episode. This seems INSANE to me and I am out of my mind thinking I might have to put my daughter back in this situation.

I spoke to DD8's counselor and my counselor about this and they agree that this is no longer a safe situation and I need to intervene. So I spoke to my divorce lawyer and gave him the quick and dirty version and he said that the family court, barring evidence that DD8 has legally suffered in some way, will say that I don't have grounds to change anything. "Suffering" includes "abuse" and "neglect" of the child.

What am I missing here? Do I revisit the situation with my lawyer now that I know more? Should I consult with another lawyer? Is this just how it's going to be? Call CPS? Do I have any right to his medical records or discharge papers so I can have an accurate picture of what's going on?
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Old 08-23-2019, 12:06 PM
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just to me is sounds like the grandparents are protecting the visitation so that THEY have time with their grandchild? not to protect the drunk in the basement so much?

do you trust THEM to care for her? he sounds beyond useless and inept, and possibly even cultivated that way by the grandparents. he can do little harm to society or to reputations if he is full time snockered.
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Old 08-23-2019, 12:13 PM
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My best impression is that they are invested in protecting their rosy vision of him. To them, he is a "great dad" because he puts on a good face and plays with DD8. They've lowered the bar so low it's on the floor.

I have offered to work with them on grandparent visitation if there were changes to their circumstances -- they have implied that the supervisory agreement was a trap for them and I'm sure it's an imposition -- but they ultimately haven't made or initiated any changes. If I am 100% honest, I don't think they really want to have her - their language is that she's an incentive for XAH to keep it together, which I HATE. When she is there I get the impression that she and dad are in their basement apartment area, functionally unsupervised.

We made these agreements early on when it looked like XAH might get it together. But it's been like five years and he's been unemployed, drunk, and a basement dweller all that time. And now this, ugh.

So what do you think? Leave it alone, see what unfolds from all this?
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Old 08-23-2019, 12:36 PM
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how DOES the kiddo seem after visits?
i know we are not supposed to hold an inquisition or use them as spies - but in general - how is her mood? behavior? anything like acting out or being super withdrawn? super clingy? hiding in her room? does she seem normal/ok? not traumatized or displaying some other emotional response?
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Old 08-23-2019, 01:23 PM
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Children aren't supposed to have jobs. It is not your DD's job to make her dad not want to drink. (And obviously, it's not working!)

I'm in aggreement with your DD's counselor that something different needs to be done. I've seen my AH have a seizure - - it was one of the scariest things I've ever seen in my life. I'd hate for your daughter to see that.
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:16 PM
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You need a meaner lawyer.

Itís not supervised if your daughter is in a separate living area alone with your ex.

Itís not appropriate that sheís sharing a bedroom with him, let alone locked in.

He just had to be hospitalized due to an alcohol-induced medical emergency. He is now going into inpatient treatment for...wait for it...alcoholism. Your daughterís therapist says this is not good for her.

If this isnít the time to take him back into court, when is?

This isnít about your ex, his parents or whatever lies they want to tell themselves. This is about protecting your daughter, yes?
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:51 PM
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I had this issue with my ex (alcohol-related seizures, leading me to pull back unsupervised parenting). I/my lawyer made the argument that someone with uncontrolled seizures will have periods when they are not capable of exercising good judgment in parenting (because they are seizing and/or passed out). A child cannot be left with no adult capable of parenting. So unless there is evidence that the seizures are being successfully controlled and/or predictable, I as a responsible parent cannot leave my child in that situation.

This was a no-brainer for the judge who heard the case, and my daughter was a lot older than yours.

I think you need a meaner lawyer too.
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:56 PM
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I think you need a meaner lawyer too.
Me too!!!!! This is not koombaya time. This is kick-in-the-pants time.
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Old 08-23-2019, 07:04 PM
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I haven't dealt with visitation as my child was older when I divorced.

However, I completely agree you need a meaner lawyer, preferably one with experience with alcoholism or at the very least child abuse.

The situation you describe is quite sickening really. An 8 year old locked up in a basement with an active alcoholic?

Now is the time to step in absolutely. This is dysfunctional at best.

The Grandparent's sound like enablers of the worst kind, willing to use your child to "save" their own grown up Son.

If nothing else comes from this, I should think you should at least be able to get an order for Soberlink to be used before and during ALL visitation. You now have proof that he is currently drinking. I would ask your new, mean, lawyer to attempt to get the medical records.

I would also absolutely have it put in the order that there be zero overnight visitation and if that isn't possible, that she needs her own sleeping quarters, upstairs.

Good luck to you, please keep us updated.
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Old 08-23-2019, 07:22 PM
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Agree with everyone else. I donít know where you live, but my state requires evidence of substance abuse in order to have that be the basis of a custody determination. Inpatient rehab is absolutely considered hard evidence of drinking. You donít have to see him do the drinking. Sometimes when rehab is in the past, it is hard to show a current problem. But you should absolutely strike while the iron is hot. I consulted with a custody attorney who was pretty straight with me about when I did or did not have a shot at full custody, so maybe there are facts I donít know that make it particularly hard for you. But at the very least seek a consult with someone else for a gut check. I did better than she thought I was going to when I requested a change- sometimes practitioners can be jaded and overly cautious.
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Old 08-24-2019, 07:08 AM
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A friend of mine is a divorce lawyer. She said to me once that it could be incredibly frustrating to practice family law, because the field was riddled with people who decided to go into it because either 1) that's where the demand is and/or 2) they were no good at anything else.

It's funny - I'm just about to attend a birthday party for another friend of mine who is a lawyer. We've been friends for years, and I know now to prepare myself for a day of lively debate amongst people who love nothing more than to argue, argue, argue. It's not my modus operandi, but it's actually kind of fun to pose questions to see what happens. It's like spinning multiple tops at once.
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Old 08-24-2019, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by PuzzledHeart View Post
A friend of mine is a divorce lawyer. She said to me once that it could be incredibly frustrating to practice family law, because the field was riddled with people who decided to go into it because either 1) that's where the demand is and/or 2) they were no good at anything else.

It's funny - I'm just about to attend a birthday party for another friend of mine who is a lawyer. We've been friends for years, and I know now to prepare myself for a day of lively debate amongst people who love nothing more than to argue, argue, argue. It's not my modus operandi, but it's actually kind of fun to pose questions to see what happens. It's like spinning multiple tops at once.
haha. I am a lawyer (not family law) and I would never date a lawyer. I feel like for the most part the women are cool (circumstantially most of my friends are lawyers), but I feel like most of the dudes donít know how to shut that part off.

Immigration law is the other area that doesnít always draw superstars. If you are bad enough at your job, you client gets deported. Not a whole lot of accountability.
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Old 08-27-2019, 06:59 AM
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DD8's post-visit feelings are complicated. She loves him so much and the grandparents' house is a Disneyland. It's huge, has a pool table, swimming pool, a pantry full of junk food. But she is frustrated with being stuck with him in the basement, not being able to see her friends on weekends and have playdates, embarrassed that he is long-term unemployed, ashamed of his drinking problem. He is at the core not a bad dude, and for all of his problems he demonstrably loves her. But he, and his parents, are so deep in this that they have lost touch with reality.

I think there's a time limit on how long she's going to be satisfied with this arrangement. We're already seeing signs that she's ready to spend time on other things. Also, for all the toys and snacks, how healthy is an environment for children when it's being run by an active alcoholic and his enablers?

XAH is *supposedly* going to rehab this week, and then to a long-term residential step-down place after. So I have reread our old agreement and see some issues with it anyway and if he's not coming back to his folk's place, there are changes that should be made anyway. I have scheduled to consult with a second lawyer just to see what I should do and how I should do it.

A new advancement is that his family totally hates my guts. They're suspicious that I went to the hospital -- literally every one of them invited me to go, in part to beg XAH to go into inpatient. So I did and I'm the villain now? Okay.

Apparently one of the big issues between them and me is that I have asked for them to separate XAH and DD8's sleeping arrangements. Despite having a gigantic five bedroom house, they have my daughter sharing a basement bedroom with an active alcoholic. So they're talking about how they broke down the door to the bedroom to save him, they are searching "his" bedroom for alcohol -- that's HER BEDROOM TOO. I am practically panicked when I think about her going back over there for an overnight with this situation, and they are livid - LIVID - with me for saying that this is ****** up and demanding another solution. Drunk people do awful things, why are you dangling a child in this situation? It disgusts me to be told that I have to wait for DD8 to be demonstrably traumatized to make a petition for custody. But of all the things to go ham over -- the bedroom is what pushes the grandparents over the edge?

I have a feeling - seeing how they are completely bungling this situation - that I won't have to do a whole lot and this whole situation is going to resolve itself... XAH shouldn't have come home from the hospital last week. They wanted him to come home before rehab for one last party - DD8's birthday, which was a whole other disaster. He doesn't know where he's going to rehab. The place he's talking about going to isn't great. Basically the only reason he's going anywhere or doing anything is that he got caught - and it's not like all of us didn't know what was going on, it's that they couldn't prove it, or that they can't hide it from me anymore, and as the custodial parent of DD8 they have to make a show for me of managing this even though we all know it's bull ****. But all that said, he hasn't made any real plans.

The other issue is that I didn't want this stupid birthday plan to happen. They expected me to drop her off last weekend like none of this happened and I said hell no. After a LONG talk with her counselor, I spoke with XAH's dad, who gave me the appearance of "speaking for the family," about how this would be a short visit, one afternoon, and there was to be zero talk about how dad's going away 1) because it's her birthday and it's our job to make it about her, and 2) because we don't know what's happening and why would you fill a child with a bunch of anxious unknowns? So of course, after they unwrap presents, XAH takes DD8 downstairs and tells her he's going away for awhile, doesn't know where or how long. And when I pick her up later, they don't tell me they had this conversation or that she was upset. She comes home, starts crying, spends all of Sunday in a frustrated, upset snit, crying off and on, and I went back to them angry about it. Apparently that was the last straw for them: openly expressing my disapproval of doing the opposite thing that we'd agreed on - that I was doing as a favor to them in a time of a crisis of their own making. I'm persona non grata.

I still don't even know for sure what he was in the hospital for. His dad said high blood pressure. XAH said a seizure. *big shrug* Sounds like DTs to me, y'all.

I saw my counselor last night and it was good. Lawyer later this week, and DD8's counselor later this week.

But this is crazy. I have taken great steps in my life to put real distance between me and this kind of craziness, and I had almost forgotten how weird and confusing and awful it can get in such a short time. Sometimes my good memories about XAH - and we do have some - overshadow the reality of the situation he's in. Even if he goes to rehab, this is his fifth or sixth or more rehab depending on how you count. We've all done this before. And while I truly - truly - hope that he is able to clean up and rebuild his life, none of the signs are there that it's any more real this time than it was the last time or the time before or the time before.
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Old 08-27-2019, 07:10 AM
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Like, when I think about best-case scenarios, the best case scenario is that he gets clean and surrenders to long-term sobriety with the support of a strong recovery community. That his family consults with recovery experts, gets the help they need to make better decisions and boundaries that are informed by the same recovery ethos that he is learning. And that is 100% never going to happen, so why even pretend.
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Old 08-27-2019, 07:28 AM
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Speaking from my own experience, it’s terrible for children to grow up watching the adults in their family living a lie. Kids know...they always know...and having people who are supposed to love and protect them tell them that down is up, wrong is right, and daddy is just fine....it teaches kids not to trust their own judgment. Now that the in-laws have decided you’re the villain here? Even worse.

That whole crowd is dangerously delusional and not to be trusted to care for your child. The end.

You tried being cooperative. This is what happened. Time to go Mama Bear. If this lawyer isn’t a shark, find someone who is.

I can tell you that I hated being alone with my father in the car,...being locked into his bedroom would have been devastating.

Sic ‘em.

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Old 08-27-2019, 07:51 AM
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P.S. Would they have been talking about a three-week inpatient program...for high blood pressure?
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Old 08-27-2019, 08:34 AM
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Lol, I mean. If they're talking, they are either lying, minimizing, diverting, or trying to convince themselves of how completely normal and fine this all is. They are the "This is Fine" dog being licked with flames.
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Old 08-27-2019, 08:39 AM
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That whole crowd is dangerously delusional and not to be trusted to care for your child. The end.

You tried being cooperative. This is what happened. Time to go Mama Bear. If this lawyer isnít a shark, find someone who is.

I can tell you that I hated being alone with my father in the car,...being locked into his bedroom would have been devastating.

Sic Ďem.
YES! You've been nice, Florence. Time to go to the mattresses.
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Old 08-27-2019, 08:50 AM
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You are not missing anything. He is not safe to parent, and now you have the documentation you need to prove it. Protect your child.
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Old 08-27-2019, 09:12 AM
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Your AH's family could be my extended family. I had one particularly abusive cousin who would, on occasion, mess around with me for kicks. One time, when I was around 8 or 9, he told me he was going to kill me after physically forcing a kite out of my hands and hitting me and so I told him that I hated him.

They saw what had happened and my parents expected to apologize because he was "our guest". Although I was very young, I also realize that this was extremely screwed up thinking, so I made it clear that I did NOT want to issue out an apology. My father remembers this moment and it is one of his greatest regrets. (My cousin continued his violence into his adult years and should probably be institutionalized.)

I had to rely on books and TV to see what happy, functional families could look like, to remind myself that my extended family could hold itself to a higher standard.

Your daughter is so lucky because she has you.
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