Even after leaving, I still struggle with denial and minimization
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Join Date: Aug 2015
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Even after leaving, I still struggle with denial and minimization
As school is starting up, I now drop my kid off instead of him walking the two blocks with all the other neighborhood kids like last year when we all still lived in our house. I see the neighborhood moms I lived close to and I've managed to stay connected so far with a couple of them even though we don't live in the neighborhood anymore. But the loss feels so big right now. It's way more for the kids that I'm saying this than for my own feelings. I'm personally more happy in this smaller place. But the house and neighborhood was supposed to be this stable, safe, big and fun place for our boys to grow up. Now it's not. The boys and I are all adapting but the loss of our family and of our house and neighborhood feels deeply painful.
As I feel all this, I keep thinking maybe things really weren't that bad. I've re-read all my posts and replies and I know, though, that it was bad. The emotional distance between STBXAH and me alone was enough to negatively impact the kids' emotional and social development. But on top of that, his style of drinking where he was treating the boys like friends in a bar was really the breaking point. I could not allow that to go on. I could not allow my kids to grow up thinking it was normal to slam a six-pack in 1/2 an hour or put down 2 bottles of wine in an evening 2 or more times per week. And for them to see the mood swings when STBXAH was needing a drink - that was bad too. Not to mention STBXAH's inability to parent or correct our older son in any way except by yelling at him.
Okay. I just really needed to get all those reasons out there again. Sometimes I really doubt myself hard because there were no outward signs of alcoholism - I sometimes feel like I was making it all up. But yet I know I wasn't.
I want to end on a positive note. We are adapting but it's hard. Boys miss their dad. I miss giving the boys what I thought was going to be a stable and happy home. But I do know we are resilient and I am working on fostering connections within our community and keeping in contact with the boys' friends' parents. And I'm working on me, going to Al-anon, and nurturing friendships that I have.
As I feel all this, I keep thinking maybe things really weren't that bad. I've re-read all my posts and replies and I know, though, that it was bad. The emotional distance between STBXAH and me alone was enough to negatively impact the kids' emotional and social development. But on top of that, his style of drinking where he was treating the boys like friends in a bar was really the breaking point. I could not allow that to go on. I could not allow my kids to grow up thinking it was normal to slam a six-pack in 1/2 an hour or put down 2 bottles of wine in an evening 2 or more times per week. And for them to see the mood swings when STBXAH was needing a drink - that was bad too. Not to mention STBXAH's inability to parent or correct our older son in any way except by yelling at him.
Okay. I just really needed to get all those reasons out there again. Sometimes I really doubt myself hard because there were no outward signs of alcoholism - I sometimes feel like I was making it all up. But yet I know I wasn't.
I want to end on a positive note. We are adapting but it's hard. Boys miss their dad. I miss giving the boys what I thought was going to be a stable and happy home. But I do know we are resilient and I am working on fostering connections within our community and keeping in contact with the boys' friends' parents. And I'm working on me, going to Al-anon, and nurturing friendships that I have.
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That's bad enough lol
That's a beer every 10 minutes, that's rather impressive really (if one is in a beer drinking contest).
If that doesn't seem like a lot, perhaps an experiment is in order! Try it. Try drinking 6 beers in an hour. If you are of smaller statue than your stbxh, try 4.
If alcohol is really not your thing, try drinking 6 bottles of water in an hour.
You have doubted your perceptions all along perse and I don't blame you at all. You had a person you loved and trusted and they stood there in front of you and told you that you were over dramatizing and that your perception was way off and that you were making too much of it all.
Above is part of another post you made. He is mystified! Mystified!
I'm pretty sure that he has been mystified by this all along? Every time you brought it up weren't you making a mountain out of - nothing? Please correct me if I'm wrong. But if you have your Husband being mystified and it's also a situation you don't want and don't want to believe, it can take a while to come out of that fog. You are working on it, you will get clarity.
I totally get almost wishing to go back. None of this is easy.
But you didn't want your children raised as drinking buddies (you were not off base there). Also, when you stopped being a drinking buddy there came the emotional distance and you could feel resentment from him as well.
Those are not things that you can/could change and I know that you would if you could.
If you could wave a magical wand and make him stop drinking or not be an alcoholic. If he would not drink around the children more than a beer after mowing the lawn. If he could engage emotionally with you and not look at you like an enemy.
But all of those things are on his side of the street.
It's a slippery slope for the boys as well and you have been very clear on them not being groomed to be his drinking buddies, that alone is worth getting out of the situation in my opinion.
That's a beer every 10 minutes, that's rather impressive really (if one is in a beer drinking contest).
If that doesn't seem like a lot, perhaps an experiment is in order! Try it. Try drinking 6 beers in an hour. If you are of smaller statue than your stbxh, try 4.
If alcohol is really not your thing, try drinking 6 bottles of water in an hour.
You have doubted your perceptions all along perse and I don't blame you at all. You had a person you loved and trusted and they stood there in front of you and told you that you were over dramatizing and that your perception was way off and that you were making too much of it all.
He is just so mystified at how I can even think there's a problem. Except I know it's a problem. I cannot sit by and let our boys grow up learning how it's so fun to party with dad, and that drinking whole bottles of wine and whole 6-packs alone is normal.
I'm pretty sure that he has been mystified by this all along? Every time you brought it up weren't you making a mountain out of - nothing? Please correct me if I'm wrong. But if you have your Husband being mystified and it's also a situation you don't want and don't want to believe, it can take a while to come out of that fog. You are working on it, you will get clarity.
I totally get almost wishing to go back. None of this is easy.
But you didn't want your children raised as drinking buddies (you were not off base there). Also, when you stopped being a drinking buddy there came the emotional distance and you could feel resentment from him as well.
Those are not things that you can/could change and I know that you would if you could.
If you could wave a magical wand and make him stop drinking or not be an alcoholic. If he would not drink around the children more than a beer after mowing the lawn. If he could engage emotionally with you and not look at you like an enemy.
But all of those things are on his side of the street.
It's a slippery slope for the boys as well and you have been very clear on them not being groomed to be his drinking buddies, that alone is worth getting out of the situation in my opinion.
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It does get better. With all the emotions going into leaving then settling into your own...missing what you had hoped for in a marriage. Just keep remembering why you left and time makes it easier. Hang in there.
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Originally Posted by PerSe 
I exaggerated- he has drank a 6-pack in an hour before but not really in half an hour.
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I think you have admirable foresight in seeing what was down the road for your sons (let's hang out with Dad and all get wasted! Because that's what adults do!). If they've got a genetic predisposition to addiction (which is not unlikely) plus growing up in an environment dominated by substance abuse, the odds of them not developing a problem are low. I'm not an ACOA but have read enough by/about them to know that a lot of their stories start out that way and end with another generation slurped into the bottle. You're giving your boys a chance to break the intergeneration cycle, which means you did the right thing.
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when i had a good drinking pace going, i could knock back a beer every 15 minutes. that's about as fast as i can "sip quickly" and still have time to hit the potty........twice. i could keep that pace up thru a 12 pack....so three hours or less.
Sometimes I really doubt myself hard because there were no outward signs of alcoholism - I sometimes feel like I was making it all up. But yet I know I wasn't.
what do you think alcoholism LOOKS like?
I could not allow my kids to grow up thinking it was normal to slam a six-pack in 1/2 an hour or put down 2 bottles of wine in an evening 2 or more times per week. And for them to see the mood swings when STBXAH was needing a drink - that was bad too. Not to mention STBXAH's inability to parent or correct our older son in any way except by yelling at him.
non-alcoholics don't get edgy/moody/distressed if they can't DRINK. it's just not an issue.
there is nothing stable or nurturing about growing up with active addiction. you did the right thing to get the kids OUT of that environment.
Sometimes I really doubt myself hard because there were no outward signs of alcoholism - I sometimes feel like I was making it all up. But yet I know I wasn't.
what do you think alcoholism LOOKS like?
I could not allow my kids to grow up thinking it was normal to slam a six-pack in 1/2 an hour or put down 2 bottles of wine in an evening 2 or more times per week. And for them to see the mood swings when STBXAH was needing a drink - that was bad too. Not to mention STBXAH's inability to parent or correct our older son in any way except by yelling at him.
non-alcoholics don't get edgy/moody/distressed if they can't DRINK. it's just not an issue.
there is nothing stable or nurturing about growing up with active addiction. you did the right thing to get the kids OUT of that environment.
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Join Date: Aug 2015
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Thanks all, so very much. I hope that eventually I will be strong enough and confident enough to not need external validation for my thoughts, opinions, and decisions, and I'm working on getting there, I'm just not there quite yet. I really appreciate the support.
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII
what do you think alcoholism LOOKS like?
And then I look and see well, he did spend many a night on the couch, he did end up in the ER recently for a "drunken bar fight", and his complete stonewalling every time I tried to gently say anything about his drinking may possibly have qualified as some type of emotional abuse but not anything like what articles describe as emotional abuse. And then there was that thing in early July where he mixed alcohol and meds and acted so weird the kids called me all upset. Sigh. So yeah I guess those were the "outward signs".
I just need to get more sure of myself and this decision and my way ahead. Whatever was or wasn't matters not so much now because it's over.
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Thanks all, so very much. I hope that eventually I will be strong enough and confident enough to not need external validation for my thoughts, opinions, and decisions, and I'm working on getting there, I'm just not there quite yet.
You take your time and be kind to yourself....in your own head, just be friendly with yourself, this is a major upheaval so it will take time to adjust. You're doing great, you did the right thing for your innocent impressionable children! Just think, even though you feel crappy about all that's happened, and about the big changes, you never have to feel crappy about continuing on in denial and raising kids in an actively alcoholic household. Do you know how huge that is????
You have taken a real stand for your own and your children's mental health. Very uncomfortable and not easy, but so worth it!!! If you think about what really matters in life and gives it meaning then you might allow yourself a little praise for doing the right thing.
(((hugs)))
Peace,
B.
You take your time and be kind to yourself....in your own head, just be friendly with yourself, this is a major upheaval so it will take time to adjust. You're doing great, you did the right thing for your innocent impressionable children! Just think, even though you feel crappy about all that's happened, and about the big changes, you never have to feel crappy about continuing on in denial and raising kids in an actively alcoholic household. Do you know how huge that is????
You have taken a real stand for your own and your children's mental health. Very uncomfortable and not easy, but so worth it!!! If you think about what really matters in life and gives it meaning then you might allow yourself a little praise for doing the right thing.
(((hugs)))
Peace,
B.
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And then I look and see well, he did spend many a night on the couch, he did end up in the ER recently for a "drunken bar fight", and his complete stonewalling every time I tried to gently say anything about his drinking may possibly have qualified as some type of emotional abuse but not anything like what articles describe as emotional abuse. And then there was that thing in early July where he mixed alcohol and meds and acted so weird the kids called me all upset. Sigh. So yeah I guess those were the "outward signs".
And just to reassure you and keep you in REALITY, everything you describe above is really really bad. Not normal. Not OK. It is a codependent trait and a common theme in alcoholic families to minimize how bad things are, all of that was learned in the A dynamic and only kept the ball in the air for Team Alcohol.
It is clear that on some level you finally trusted yourself and your own eyes! Again show yourself some love for getting out. The past is gone...you are free in this moment.
Peace,
B.
And just to reassure you and keep you in REALITY, everything you describe above is really really bad. Not normal. Not OK. It is a codependent trait and a common theme in alcoholic families to minimize how bad things are, all of that was learned in the A dynamic and only kept the ball in the air for Team Alcohol.
It is clear that on some level you finally trusted yourself and your own eyes! Again show yourself some love for getting out. The past is gone...you are free in this moment.
Peace,
B.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
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I have quoted you below because you really said so much when you posted that.
One thing I have noticed is that when you talk about this you talk about the number of drinks he might consume on any given day (questioning yourself) or how his drinking around the boys was very negative for them, but you rarely speak about the emotional side of your marriage and how that affected you.
Maybe it's just not something you want to talk about much, maybe it's still too painful and that's fine, of course. Or maybe that's something that was a huge part of the end of that relationship but you just took it all on board, as many do. You weren't complaining, you were doing your thing and trying to be a good partner, because that is what marriage is about right?
You released him from that emotional obligation? Then when you finally had enough you confronted him and, it all crumbled because, as you knew alcohol was always his first priority above all else and always would be.
No, you didn't make this up in your head.
Addiction, Lies and Relationships
"Those unfortunates who attempt to preserve a human relationship to individuals in the throes of progressive addiction almost always sense their own secondary "less than" status in relation to the addiction - and despite the addict's passionate and indignant denials of this reality, they are right: the addict does indeed love his addiction more than he loves them".
One thing I have noticed is that when you talk about this you talk about the number of drinks he might consume on any given day (questioning yourself) or how his drinking around the boys was very negative for them, but you rarely speak about the emotional side of your marriage and how that affected you.
Maybe it's just not something you want to talk about much, maybe it's still too painful and that's fine, of course. Or maybe that's something that was a huge part of the end of that relationship but you just took it all on board, as many do. You weren't complaining, you were doing your thing and trying to be a good partner, because that is what marriage is about right?
You released him from that emotional obligation? Then when you finally had enough you confronted him and, it all crumbled because, as you knew alcohol was always his first priority above all else and always would be.
No, you didn't make this up in your head.
Addiction, Lies and Relationships
"Those unfortunates who attempt to preserve a human relationship to individuals in the throes of progressive addiction almost always sense their own secondary "less than" status in relation to the addiction - and despite the addict's passionate and indignant denials of this reality, they are right: the addict does indeed love his addiction more than he loves them".
Originally Posted by PerSe
But that moment back in February when I set a boundary that "I cannot live with the level of drinking you are doing" it - my marriage of 20 years - just crumbled at my feet. It's like he switched - it felt like I was suddenly the enemy, and though there was lots of ongoing emotional distance for years, he was suddenly cold as ice and I was out (with STBXAH you are either in or out, liked or disliked, good or bad - not much middle ground with him).
I recently heard someone use the analogy that alcohol was like a third partner in their relationship and I really really identified with that. I realize now that is how it has felt for me for so many years, for our whole marriage really. It's not that there were DUIs, abuse, missing work (but actually there was a bit of that), or other irresponsible behavior - it's that drinking was always his first love. I was always second. As long as I was there to support that, I guess I was in. When I became unwilling to support it, I was out. I guess he loved me in his own way but it hurts because I feel like I have been dumped for alcohol. I do realize this is the nature of alcoholism and I try to accept that.
I recently heard someone use the analogy that alcohol was like a third partner in their relationship and I really really identified with that. I realize now that is how it has felt for me for so many years, for our whole marriage really. It's not that there were DUIs, abuse, missing work (but actually there was a bit of that), or other irresponsible behavior - it's that drinking was always his first love. I was always second. As long as I was there to support that, I guess I was in. When I became unwilling to support it, I was out. I guess he loved me in his own way but it hurts because I feel like I have been dumped for alcohol. I do realize this is the nature of alcoholism and I try to accept that.
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Originally Posted by PerSe
I guess I always think it looks like getting at least one DUI, some type of abuse involved, passing out on the lawn, me calling in to his work saying he's sick, him going out to bars, possible infidelity ... but none of these things ever happened. (It is true that he might have gotten a DUI once before I met him, it seems like he may have casually mentioned that a long time ago, but I can't remember for sure - he's never gotten one in the 23 years I've known him.)
And then I look and see well, he did spend many a night on the couch, he did end up in the ER recently for a "drunken bar fight", and his complete stonewalling every time I tried to gently say anything about his drinking may possibly have qualified as some type of emotional abuse but not anything like what articles describe as emotional abuse. And then there was that thing in early July where he mixed alcohol and meds and acted so weird the kids called me all upset. Sigh. So yeah I guess those were the "outward signs".
I just need to get more sure of myself and this decision and my way ahead. Whatever was or wasn't matters not so much now because it's over.
And then I look and see well, he did spend many a night on the couch, he did end up in the ER recently for a "drunken bar fight", and his complete stonewalling every time I tried to gently say anything about his drinking may possibly have qualified as some type of emotional abuse but not anything like what articles describe as emotional abuse. And then there was that thing in early July where he mixed alcohol and meds and acted so weird the kids called me all upset. Sigh. So yeah I guess those were the "outward signs".
I just need to get more sure of myself and this decision and my way ahead. Whatever was or wasn't matters not so much now because it's over.
Please remember that this is a progressive disease. He will get worse. Other people are either already aware that something isn't right.. Or they will be soon. He will get so much worse but you'll be free, physically, emotionally and spiritually.
Give him enough rope..
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PerSe - my heart breaks for you, I know exactly how you feel questioning yourself and your decision, minimizing what’s really happened here. Just know from the outside looking in (and we only know what you’ve shared, I’m sure there’s more that’s happened along with the emotional trauma you’ve endured over the years). You did the right thing.
I still cannot get over how similar our stories are. And then you brought up the time he mixed pills and alcohol... OMG how did I manage to forget that MY AH did that too?!?!? I even took a video of him, I’d never seen him so disoriented, he’s drank and taken waayyyy too much adderall and driven. How did I not see??? I continued to listen to his excuses. How did either of us walk away from that still questioning ourselves?!
i think we want to believe our “other husband” that exists when he’s sober. It’s such a mind f*ck excuse my language.
I think all you need here is time in your new normal. You did the right thing, for yourself and your boys.
I still cannot get over how similar our stories are. And then you brought up the time he mixed pills and alcohol... OMG how did I manage to forget that MY AH did that too?!?!? I even took a video of him, I’d never seen him so disoriented, he’s drank and taken waayyyy too much adderall and driven. How did I not see??? I continued to listen to his excuses. How did either of us walk away from that still questioning ourselves?!
i think we want to believe our “other husband” that exists when he’s sober. It’s such a mind f*ck excuse my language.
I think all you need here is time in your new normal. You did the right thing, for yourself and your boys.
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Originally Posted by PerSe
I guess I always think it looks like getting at least one DUI, some type of abuse involved, passing out on the lawn, me calling in to his work saying he's sick, him going out to bars, possible infidelity ... but none of these things ever happened. (It is true that he might have gotten a DUI once before I met him, it seems like he may have casually mentioned that a long time ago, but I can't remember for sure - he's never gotten one in the 23 years I've known him.)
A wise member of SR in my early days here pointed out that we need to add the word "yet" to statements like you made above - that just because these things haven't happened YET doesn't mean they won't. And when it eventually does happen, you won't have any more advance notice than you do right now, but you will most likely be knee-deep in a crisis moment.
(And pssssttt!!! 6 beers in an hour is no small deal!!)
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Been there, done that. Minimizing. XAH told me he didn't have a problem and I believed him. Often after I left I wondered if I overreacted. I realize now that I underreacted while I was in the marriage. I wish I had left him when I first noticed there was a problem. As time passes I am trusting myself and my decisions more and more. Things are turning out okay.
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Their part in the minimization and denial is really Alcoholism 101. It's hard not to buy in to, when someone is standing in front of your telling you THEIR truth, because it is their truth.
Excuses Alcoholics Make
Common stereotyped addictive defenses include but are by no means limited to the following:
Problem? WHAT problem?
Primitive and unconscious denial is classified as a psychotic defense mechanism because it denies or distorts reality itself. Those in the grip of psychotic denial are literally out of touch with reality. Thus an alcoholic with multiple and perfectly obvious negative consequences from his pathological drinking (legal, health, marital and job problems) may, difficult as this is to believe, indignantly and -from his perspective- honestly deny that he has a serious problem with alcohol. He doesn't know what people who criticize his drinking are talking about - and he is genuinely hurt and offended at what he perceives to be their unfair and unreasonable attacks upon him. He often reacts to expressions of concern about his drinking with self-pity, resentment, and -of course- more drinking.
I'm not THAT bad!
Minimization and downplaying of the problems connected with addiction fill in the gaps and take up the slack left by the failure of psychotic denial to adjust reality completely to the requirements of the addiction. The addict admits that difficulties exist - but he stoutly maintains, frequently in the face of an astonishing and rapidly accumulating mountain of evidence to the contrary, that they are not really as bad as others make them out to be.
Excuses Alcoholics Make
Common stereotyped addictive defenses include but are by no means limited to the following:
Problem? WHAT problem?
Primitive and unconscious denial is classified as a psychotic defense mechanism because it denies or distorts reality itself. Those in the grip of psychotic denial are literally out of touch with reality. Thus an alcoholic with multiple and perfectly obvious negative consequences from his pathological drinking (legal, health, marital and job problems) may, difficult as this is to believe, indignantly and -from his perspective- honestly deny that he has a serious problem with alcohol. He doesn't know what people who criticize his drinking are talking about - and he is genuinely hurt and offended at what he perceives to be their unfair and unreasonable attacks upon him. He often reacts to expressions of concern about his drinking with self-pity, resentment, and -of course- more drinking.
I'm not THAT bad!
Minimization and downplaying of the problems connected with addiction fill in the gaps and take up the slack left by the failure of psychotic denial to adjust reality completely to the requirements of the addiction. The addict admits that difficulties exist - but he stoutly maintains, frequently in the face of an astonishing and rapidly accumulating mountain of evidence to the contrary, that they are not really as bad as others make them out to be.
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I get what you are saying 100%
While it's not quite the same, I will share this. My child goes to a small private school. All of us parents are super close, and our children are super close. They have grown up together. The school only goes through 8th grade, so at the end of this school year, the kids will scatter to different places. Some private HS, some at various other schools. Point being, I am freaking out because our little group will be split. Our way of life will change, and it's hard. It will be hard for my child as well.
That being said, kids are resilient (sp?) beings. They adapt. You are providing them love and the stability they need. That is what really matters. You did, and are doing, the right thing.
Huge hugs.
While it's not quite the same, I will share this. My child goes to a small private school. All of us parents are super close, and our children are super close. They have grown up together. The school only goes through 8th grade, so at the end of this school year, the kids will scatter to different places. Some private HS, some at various other schools. Point being, I am freaking out because our little group will be split. Our way of life will change, and it's hard. It will be hard for my child as well.
That being said, kids are resilient (sp?) beings. They adapt. You are providing them love and the stability they need. That is what really matters. You did, and are doing, the right thing.
Huge hugs.
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Minimization/denial are powerful enemies - don’t underestimate what you’re up against (I guess I’m saying don’t minimize minimization or underestimate underestimation. Ha!). It’s normal to feel a pull towards pretending things are basically okay and aren’t so bad ... but from what you’ve written here, things are NOT remotely okay and they ARE that bad.
I can still remember the surge of relief I felt when ex’s wife called me to tell me that ex wouldn’t be taking my daughter to her karate class because he was passed out drunk. I wasn’t happy that he was passed out, I was happy that someone else saw it and so I could tell myself my concerns about ex and alcohol were not just me overreacting and making a big deal out of a few extra drinks here and there. That’s how powerful the pull towards minimization can be - I needed that extra validation (from ex-wife #2!) to bolster my perception that ex drank too much around Kid.
I can still remember the surge of relief I felt when ex’s wife called me to tell me that ex wouldn’t be taking my daughter to her karate class because he was passed out drunk. I wasn’t happy that he was passed out, I was happy that someone else saw it and so I could tell myself my concerns about ex and alcohol were not just me overreacting and making a big deal out of a few extra drinks here and there. That’s how powerful the pull towards minimization can be - I needed that extra validation (from ex-wife #2!) to bolster my perception that ex drank too much around Kid.
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