Sasha1972

Wait a minute, whose goal is this? Yours? Hers? Your goal, which you think ought to be her goal too?

suki44883

Um, this is not your place and no reputable doctor can or would admit an adult to any program just on your say so.

August252015

So, yeah, I see those same issues with the most recent posts.

Her being sober is, humbly, my opinion on the only way the whole picture can start to make sense.

You can't do that for her - make her sit in AA, nor get any dr to take her to treatment. That's up to her, as it should be.

I didn't mean getting help for you both - I meant for YOU.

You can only control you, and you can only be one parent in this equation. So you only get to impact THAT. Families - everyone- need help, and I'd put your child in there big time as well.

wehav2day

Hi Bob,

I’m glad your son is thriving and that you feel somewhat better about your situation.

There are a few things that stuck out to me that you said, and hopefully since you want support and feedback I can be one of many to help.

You mentioned that you haven’t been to counseling because you were told it’s not a good time for couples counseling. Counseling for you and couples are two different things. Your mental and emotional well being is not dependent on her sobriety or program success. It may feel like it is, but it’s actually not.

You have certain benchmarks in your mind of what success for her in your eyes will look like. Boundaries and benchmarks are also two different things. You can set boundaries (things you will and won’t accept for yourself). But benchmarks like her saying she’s an alcoholic at an aa meeting are meaningless. I know plenty of folks who were able to say out loud in a room full of alkies that they’re an alkie too, then went home and drank. I was one of them. Admitting is a STEP TOWARDS recovery, but it’s hardly recovery itself.

Outing herself to friends and family isn’t really recovery either. There are a lot of folks in my life who don’t know WHY I don’t drink, only THAT I don’t drink.

The key factor is the not drinking. The desire to be and do better has to be stronger than the desire to drink. That desire has to lead her to a program. And she has to work the hell out of that program. Get out of her comfort zone.

Because the comfort zone of an alcoholic is a bottle full of alcohol.

I hope she has success, and I hope your life gets much much better. Her recovery is hers alone though. As is yours.

TheBob1

Very good points made here. I do have trouble grasping the concept that its a MARRIAGE but that this is hers alone to conquer (and mine, as it relates to my own life and her effects on it).

"Outing" oneself to friends and family? I guess it helps to have that support, and I've heard in some places that's what "should" be done (believe her doc, who has an alcoholic sibling, suggested?). I totally agree its fine not to tell anyone why they don't drink, but in her case, everyone knows her as a drinker, so this allows her lots and lots of freedom to "blend in" and feel no social/familial pressure or remorse.

Her doc, by the way, suggested she might actually put her in a recovery facility for health reasons, so my suggestion I would "have her do it" was more a reference to going along with or suggesting from my end.

I might be caught up with replies, but not much to report, sadly. She has to drop her program for lack of attendance (was caring for needy/elderly parents two weeks, then didn't go right back. Overall, she's not trying to be sober, but managing her consumption. Still hides it. Kinda stupid. On a personal level, I enjoy her company a little more when she is less drunk, or maybe the term is mildly buzzed(?). Ugh...
I do what I can to enjoy things and don't laser focus on her drinking - unless it becomes a nuisance. Can't change the past, but that doesn't mean I accept it as okay. It sucks in a number of ways and always will.
No idea how life will go in the coming year....

Kokoro

Hiya, I hope you are taking good care of yourself. I think talking it out to loved ones about what is happening will really help. Are you going al-anon/ some other self help group if you are uncomfortable about telling anyone you know?
If you are okay with her drinking then that is your choice ultimately, and honestly everyone is different. I would be wary because of the progressiveness of the disease hence why I would probably look for a group. All the best!

TheBob1

Nope, not okay with her drinking. As you said, its progressive and she was actually hospitalized for liver issues some months back - the only thing that seemed to get her attention. But she scaled back, had some okay blood test results, so now feels embolden to manage drinking vs abstaining.
Unless a health issues forces it, I don't expect her to stop; Its part of her life and she has no desire to change it, husband and son be damned if we don't like it.

TheBob1

We've been 'semi emotionally divorced' for some years now, tho she seems to think otherwise despite lack of intimacy or common joy btw us. I'm existing and holding things together for our son. As older couples often will, I have my interests and she has hers. Only common one is our son. If she keeps drinking, I am not emotionally present for her.

Anyone been here - when the home becomes an empty nest with one sober and one alcoholic together? Its coming and I have no idea what it will look like or how to prepare for it. I had imagined traveling or having a small cottage or timeshare in the special place we love to visit, but not if she's not sober. Oh well, traveling alone is half the price and easier to meet new and interesting - even sexy - people.

FeelingGreat

Bob I predict things might fall apart with your marriage once your son leaves for college. Empty nests can be challenging for families without substance abuse, but as she has no intention of becoming sober, I think you can tick that off your hope list.

Are you in a financial position to separate? Because your DS will be building his own life progressively from next year onwards, and staying together for him will make less and less sense. It would probably we worth sorting a few things now, just in case you decide to make the move. I hate to think of you in a physically and emotionally sterile partnership for the indefinite future, because you sound kinda sad.

TheBob1

Financially able - I suppose. Logistically, damn nearly impossible unless I forced her out (home and property to care for, and no, I'll never sell).
And yes, somewhat hopeless-sounding, huh? Yours and the previous post were pretty much dead-on about empty-nesting and the like, but adding to the misery now of course is the pandemic. Son went to college, classes went online, son came home from college.
**NEW TWIST**
Son told Mom, "Keep drinking and I will leave". She did... and he left. She still believes as long as she is not getting "drunk" that she can "manage drinking" and that she isn't truly an alcoholic (even tho she cannot or will not stop for more than a few days). Strangely, she does not get withdrawals (she went to rehab for 3 weeks and oddly had no ill feelings).

Anyone want to chime in on whether our son should come back and try to be part of "recovery" (she's in IOP program and AA)? Being online is hard enough for a college freshman, but doing so in someone else's home only adds to the stress; As does being in a home with an alcoholic parent. I've told him he will not be 'going back on his word' by returning, but he feels he would be. He only said he would leave if she drank, not that he would stay away. My boy is a man of his word, and I am so proud... and so sad.

BTW, and catching up: FINALLY, family and friends are involved. Over the summer, she actually binge drank one weekend with everyone at our home. I spilled the beans when asked "what's going on" and they have all vowed to "help". And so it goes...

TheBob1

Need to add one thing:

I started this thread 5 1/2 years ago and am still here. Let this be a warning to anyone who feels they may be facing addiction issues in their home or relationship: Nip it in the bud! If not, you may end up like me. A life full of unanticipated (and unnecessary) challenges and obstacles on top of responsibilities (yes, including taking wedding vows seriously) too great to just walk away from even if you are so inclined. If you perceive something troubling early-on, act swiftly and decisively, even if it has "been coming on" for a long time, as in my situation.
Like with most addictions, it can come on innocently and/or slowly enough - like watching a tree grow. You may perceive it, but doesn't seem enough to warrant action - or strong action. But chances are, it is and it does.

SparkleKitty

Is she still drinking?

If so, there is no "recovery" for him to be part of, and his choice to stay away should in no way center or even involve how she feels about him being gone. He will not make a difference in her recovery either way--ONLY she will.

TheBob1

Hi SK and thanks for the response.
"Recovery" is an interesting concept in this territory. How does one define it, or even define "still drinking"? A couple days, weeks, months? For her, she drank 2-3 times in the past month, so unless you count the last 4-5 days, she is "still drinking".
Agree with your assessment and that of her doctor and all those wise in the way of alcoholism: SHE is in control of her own destiny. But its hard to argue that having family and friends around to kick your butt back on track if you fall off can't be a bad thing.
As for our son, he feels he needs to stay away as incentive for her to stop. This may or may not be wise or true, but I do know that in doing so, he is not doing himself any favors with the extra stress. The question is whether it is MORE stressful being home - I doubt it is, but only he can answer that.
This dialogue helped. Son's being here or away will probably not incentivize Mom, tho he is convinced it is worth his efforts. Frankly, I want my son home, and agree that my wife's recovery is not likely going to hinge on where our son (or I) happen to be, tho she will certainly feel the pain if we are both 'gone'.

SparkleKitty

Well, I define "still drinking" as...still drinking.

For an alcoholic, there isn't any such thing as "moderation". Drinking is either an option, or it isn't.

I actually don't find it hard to argue that having a family to fall back on could be a bad thing. It depends on the family, of course, but in some cases, that can be the very definition of enabling. Anything that takes responsibility and accountability away from the addict in recovery does them no service at all.

I'm sorry your son is wrapped up in an illusion that anything he does or says can influence her drinking or not. I can tell you, however, as the daughter of an alcoholic mother, being home with an active addict was PHENOMENALLY stressful--often in ways it would be ten, twenty years before I was even able to begin to process. One's mother is supposed to be active, loving, and present in one's life. It is incredibly damaging to one's self esteem, at a very important stage of development, to be receiving constant subliminal and overt messages that one is less important to one's mother than drinking is.

trailmix

Hi Bob, thanks for the update.

Yes, I'm sorry your Son has flown the coop and who knows if he thinks it will have an effect on his Mother's drinking or if he just can't stand to be around it anymore - or a bit of both. It won't work, obviously, she's still drinking. At least he knows he is not enabling her, that might give him some small bit of consolation.

Yes she is still drinking and no, she's not in recovery. "Recovery" in terms of alcoholism has a start with putting down the drink, for sure, but that is just the very first step. Recovery is about realizations and healing. She will stop drinking and start recovery when she decides and not a moment before.

I suppose it can be, depends on the person being kicked? Personally, I would resent the hell out of this, but that's my personality, I hate being pushed around by anyone at anytime. The person being pushed is usually at a disadvantage, they have come clean about some problem, be that drinking or wanting to lose weight or whatever and the "group" decides to police that. When you are at a disadvantage, in your perception, it's hard to push back. If she ever does reach recovery though, who knows, that strength might come back.

This is ongoing though, I am interested to see how this unfolds.

TheBob1

Indeed. Making the "control" issue worse, she did not decide to stop. She went on a bender - first time in all these years she just got wasted and was worthless all weekend while her family was here. I finally broke it to them and we had an impromptu "intervention". No experience, uneducated on the ways of doing so, but we all chimed in and basically said "this needs to end, and we wonlt be around you (or vice-versa) if you;re going to keep up. SO yeah, she still resents being "told what to do", yes, even by her doctor and one in the ER where she once was told she was destroying her liver (she has cut back enough to get somewhat "normal" liver enzyme tests). So yeah, she has not even completed step one.

Son did come home. On the good news (and after her doctor's appt that day) apparently she decided to "celebrate" and ran a modest buzz Friday/Saturday. Not sure if son could tell in the short time they saw each other, but I could (and found there was vodka in her juice drink).
What a champ.

TheBob1

Yes, I've been speaking with him about this. He had really hoped he might be able to get her to stop in the same way he got her to agree to rehab by threatening to leave. Obviously this didn't work. She bore the shame of having to tell family and friends, but apparently that was a small price to pay to keep her monkey happy.

(My question about "what does 'still drinking' mean?", I suppose was partly rhetorical, in that if someone has stopped for a week or a month, when is it considered "not drinking"?) Seems to be as much a mindset as actual behavior. I keep hearing "one day at a time" from her, which makes me want to explode. That approach, I am sure, is fine for someone suffering thru a rough and GENUINE recovery, but not someone using it as an excuse to stop-and-go, as in "quitting" for a few days or a week or two, fall (jump!) off the wagon, then say "That's in the past".)

TheBob1

Sorry for multiple posts, but I have one more question:

What does responsibility and accountability for alcoholism look like... aside from what life does to an alcoholic (poor health, loss of a job, DUI, etc.). In my case, she drinks, I give her sh--, she shrugs it off, life goes on. How does one adult hold another accountable other than doing what people seem to say is "wrong", like leaving or imposing other "penalties"? Im confused, especially in an environment where everyone is saying "You can't make her stop - only she can". Be supportive but do not "enable". With all that in mind, how does one adult hold another "accountable"? Let's be blunt, the answer must be to punish them like a child, only with adult consequences - correct? Divorce, leave them, kick them out, etc. What else could be considered letting someone be accountable/responsible?

SparkleKitty

I don't try to hold others accountable.. I hold myself accountable for maintaining MY boundaries. How that affects others is their concern, not mine.

When I left my alcoholic, it was not to punish him. It was not to hold him accountable. It was not to attempt to control his behavior in the slightest. It was because *his* way of living was not compatible with the life *I* wanted to have.

It's hard, but shifting your perspective to what is best for you and the children you are responsible for, and AWAY from the alcoholic whom you cannot control, is a start.

SparkleKitty

So when you ask what does accountability and responsibility for alcoholism look like...to me, it looks like an addict putting their own recovery first, above everything else, and doing whatever they have to do to sustain that recovery.

What it doesn't look like is other people trying to coerce her into recovery. Trying to guilt her, shame her, love her, intimidate her, support her, encourage her, blackmail her or anything her into recovery. It doesn't have anything to do with other people at all.

And when it comes to "letting someone be accountable/responsible", you are the one labeling it "divorce, leave them, kick them out, etc." I don't see how we have the power to LET anyone else do anything, and it's usually our egos that insist otherwise. To me, letting someone be accountable is the same as letting them live their life without attempting to control them, or to control the consquences of their actions. And to me, accepting someone for exactly who they are, right now, warts and all, is the most loving thing I can do for another person. But that does not mean that who they are is someone I can have in my life on a day-to-day basis, not an maintain my own mental and emotional well-being.