They’re convinced
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Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 83
Many many times I’ve wished for mine to meet someone else. I’m sure when he does he’ll stop, become the man I wanted, sober up, love bomb them....for a while. I’ll see through it though.
i have no advice on the custody, but I think he’s doing it to hurt you and that’s why he’s so open woth his lady friend. The last gasps of chaos causing before he’s out, misery loves misery
i have no advice on the custody, but I think he’s doing it to hurt you and that’s why he’s so open woth his lady friend. The last gasps of chaos causing before he’s out, misery loves misery
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Englewood
Posts: 76
Thanks all for the responses. I checked on some websites and it seems in my state that one MUST go through mediation first and then arbitration if necessary. And also, unless (as usual) there is hard proof, adultery means little to nothing in the eyes of the court. It could hurt the adulterer financially in regards to alimony, but it doesn’t seem as though, at this moment, he’s renting her a pied-a-terre. I did overhear him mention something about moving her out here to our city as soon as he’s out of my house, but when I asked him about that he, of course said I’d misheard so I’ll try to get some language about having a safe and wholesome environment for my kiddo when/if he has him overnight. I don’t know if that’s going to happen though.
i agree about my lawyer not being as soothing as I want really, I *think* they may be waiting to tell me a strategy until they get his sworn financial statement, which would outline his debt and lack of income. If I feel the same sort of reserve from them as I have been I will start searching for a new lawyer.
So, more deep breaths, more waiting and going about doing my daily business until deadlines get closer.
i agree about my lawyer not being as soothing as I want really, I *think* they may be waiting to tell me a strategy until they get his sworn financial statement, which would outline his debt and lack of income. If I feel the same sort of reserve from them as I have been I will start searching for a new lawyer.
So, more deep breaths, more waiting and going about doing my daily business until deadlines get closer.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,618
Just a couple of thoughts:
1. I have friends who are professional mediators, and a good one won't work with clients who are abusing substances because mediation depends on both parties being willing to stick to what they agreed to, and addicts won't do that. If your state requires that you "go through mediation", I suggest you do the minimum possible - you meet with a mediator, you have one session, neither your nor your ex concede anything, fine thanks very much, you can now tick off "attempted mediation" and move to arbitration or litigation, which produce binding results that have teeth. (That's what I did under similar circumstances).
2. One thing I heard early in my divorce about people trying to assert "their rights" - as a parent, the only "right" you have is to information about your child. Children are the ones who have rights (to safe, secure environments and to their parents' emotional, material and financial resources). Parents have responsibilities (to provide the same and to behave appropriately around children). So if your ex is going on about his rights as a father - as long as he knows where the children are and how they are doing, he has his rights. Everything else is a matter of what is in the children's best interests, which may not include spending a whole lot of time with a narcissistic drunk.
3. Absolutely a court can order sobriety testing as a condition of access. Sobriety testing is not just for catching him drunk, it's also a way for him to prove that he can be around the kids and not drink, which will help if he seeks expanded access to them (unlikely). If someone told me I had to do breathalyzer testing in order to see my daughter, I'd jump on it - because I know I will never test positive and this is my way to prove to the world that I am reliable. There's no good reason for him to object to it.
1. I have friends who are professional mediators, and a good one won't work with clients who are abusing substances because mediation depends on both parties being willing to stick to what they agreed to, and addicts won't do that. If your state requires that you "go through mediation", I suggest you do the minimum possible - you meet with a mediator, you have one session, neither your nor your ex concede anything, fine thanks very much, you can now tick off "attempted mediation" and move to arbitration or litigation, which produce binding results that have teeth. (That's what I did under similar circumstances).
2. One thing I heard early in my divorce about people trying to assert "their rights" - as a parent, the only "right" you have is to information about your child. Children are the ones who have rights (to safe, secure environments and to their parents' emotional, material and financial resources). Parents have responsibilities (to provide the same and to behave appropriately around children). So if your ex is going on about his rights as a father - as long as he knows where the children are and how they are doing, he has his rights. Everything else is a matter of what is in the children's best interests, which may not include spending a whole lot of time with a narcissistic drunk.
3. Absolutely a court can order sobriety testing as a condition of access. Sobriety testing is not just for catching him drunk, it's also a way for him to prove that he can be around the kids and not drink, which will help if he seeks expanded access to them (unlikely). If someone told me I had to do breathalyzer testing in order to see my daughter, I'd jump on it - because I know I will never test positive and this is my way to prove to the world that I am reliable. There's no good reason for him to object to it.
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
i agree about my lawyer not being as soothing as I want really
lawyers aren't exactly famous for being touchy feely. they would not be good lawyers if they allowed emotions to sway them.
my personal attorney is a no nonsense, all business kind of attorney. when i sit across the desk from him he is honed on the legal PURPOSE of our meeting, not how my commute was. of if my cat's digestive disorder has resolved. he's like Joe Friday. and very good at what he does.
i really suggest you stop sharing any information with your future ex about the house or the assets or the financial distribution of anything. don't hand the guy with the gun any more bullets. DO let your attorney take care of the legal stuff.
you also are not obligated to respond to his texts. especially if it's just more blah blah blah. do not attempt to negotiate. or cajole. or defend. them days are long gone.
lawyers aren't exactly famous for being touchy feely. they would not be good lawyers if they allowed emotions to sway them.
my personal attorney is a no nonsense, all business kind of attorney. when i sit across the desk from him he is honed on the legal PURPOSE of our meeting, not how my commute was. of if my cat's digestive disorder has resolved. he's like Joe Friday. and very good at what he does.
i really suggest you stop sharing any information with your future ex about the house or the assets or the financial distribution of anything. don't hand the guy with the gun any more bullets. DO let your attorney take care of the legal stuff.
you also are not obligated to respond to his texts. especially if it's just more blah blah blah. do not attempt to negotiate. or cajole. or defend. them days are long gone.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Englewood
Posts: 76
Yes. You are correct. It’s HARD because he lives here, has no job and does little to nothing during the day- except job search. And this is someone I KNOW and have lived with every day for the last fifteen years.
I did tell him that I want to go straight to mediation and am done talking to him about this stuff, that we can’t reach an agreement (he goes back and forth all the time anyway). If mediation doesn’t work we will set a date for arbitration. And hopefully somewhere in there he will move out.
I did tell him that I want to go straight to mediation and am done talking to him about this stuff, that we can’t reach an agreement (he goes back and forth all the time anyway). If mediation doesn’t work we will set a date for arbitration. And hopefully somewhere in there he will move out.
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
stop doing anything FOR him. not laundry, not groceries, not cooking. not helpful job searches. hopefully you two are not still sharing a bed?
he has a new girlfriend right? he can pack his "two rags and a radio" and go set up shop at her place. or family. or friends if he has any left.
he has a new girlfriend right? he can pack his "two rags and a radio" and go set up shop at her place. or family. or friends if he has any left.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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As he's not going to voluntarily agree to sober link or similar, I hope you're diarising and photographing the empty bottle in situ, and other circumstantial evidence he's drinking, as well as preserving the bottle (wearing gloves) as it will have his fingerprints on it. You don't have to 'prove' he's drinking to build up a case, just have a string of circumstances which point towards him drinking. How does he pay for the liquor? Receipts? CC records?
If you can show you have reasonable grounds for protecting your son, the court may impose testing.
I wouldn't hang on to the adultery thing. You've been making arrangements for him to leave, and even if you're not officially separated it may be seen as reasonable that he's moved on.
Apologies if I'm telling you really basic things you've known for ages. I just thought that as you were talking about proof you might be thinking it has to be definitive.
If you can show you have reasonable grounds for protecting your son, the court may impose testing.
I wouldn't hang on to the adultery thing. You've been making arrangements for him to leave, and even if you're not officially separated it may be seen as reasonable that he's moved on.
Apologies if I'm telling you really basic things you've known for ages. I just thought that as you were talking about proof you might be thinking it has to be definitive.
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Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 223
I had to go to mediation. We settled at first, but when I found out he was drinking again and with my kid there and I filed for a change in custody, the court granted me a temporary order and said if anyone wanted to change it we needed to go to mediation. It is a “recommending jurisdiction” which means that while its mediation in the sense that if you can agree to something that is the first goal and they will write it up, but if not they make a recommendation to the judge about what should happen. This is really for the custody part not the money.
We went because the ex wanted to fight the temporary order (soberlink he was going to stipulate to but he wanted his overnights back immediately). And I went in to “mediation” like I go into court- to prove my point, and I called bull£€£>> on every lie he told. The mediator/custody evaluator eventually told him he would never get what he wanted from her recommendation or from the judge, and he gave up and signed off on me keeping full custody long term.
Long story to say- you 100% do not need to go into mediation planning to roll over to get anything from it. If you are being fair, it’s not supposed to be an exercise in how much you can be browbeat. You can go in with all your ducks in a row about reality, and they may give your ex a realistic sense of what the court will do if you litigate it. Go in like it’s war, don’t give him s**t (or have a short list of things you don’t care about you can roll over on if you need to look like it’s good faith), and see what happens. Maybe it is checking a box, maybe it scares him if he’s being unreasonable. As long as you hold firm it won’t hurt you.
(this is my personal experience and not my legal advice.)
We went because the ex wanted to fight the temporary order (soberlink he was going to stipulate to but he wanted his overnights back immediately). And I went in to “mediation” like I go into court- to prove my point, and I called bull£€£>> on every lie he told. The mediator/custody evaluator eventually told him he would never get what he wanted from her recommendation or from the judge, and he gave up and signed off on me keeping full custody long term.
Long story to say- you 100% do not need to go into mediation planning to roll over to get anything from it. If you are being fair, it’s not supposed to be an exercise in how much you can be browbeat. You can go in with all your ducks in a row about reality, and they may give your ex a realistic sense of what the court will do if you litigate it. Go in like it’s war, don’t give him s**t (or have a short list of things you don’t care about you can roll over on if you need to look like it’s good faith), and see what happens. Maybe it is checking a box, maybe it scares him if he’s being unreasonable. As long as you hold firm it won’t hurt you.
(this is my personal experience and not my legal advice.)
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Originally Posted by Thursdays 
EDIT! Sorry- what’s been helping so far has been NOT broaching the subject of his drinking and basically agreeing to all of his terms. They had seemed reasonable. I sent him my financials today and we were supposed to go over how much I pay him out to leave tomorrow. He would leave when he gets his cash. And we would sign a legal document stating when he would leave. Until then I’m just sort of holding my breath.
We had our initial status conference last Friday. We have a separation agreement and we’re working on the parenting plan. Tonight I found the vodka bottle in one of his hiding spots. He’s still living in the house. He agreed to leave when he gets the cash from me buying him out. I’ve left kiddo home with him alone many times since he had said he’s quit drinking. Now I know he’s still drinking.
We had our initial status conference last Friday. We have a separation agreement and we’re working on the parenting plan. Tonight I found the vodka bottle in one of his hiding spots. He’s still living in the house. He agreed to leave when he gets the cash from me buying him out. I’ve left kiddo home with him alone many times since he had said he’s quit drinking. Now I know he’s still drinking.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Englewood
Posts: 76
Thank you again, all. I should be getting his financial statements today. Then we will set a date for mediation. Unfortunately his girlfriend turned out to be nutty, his family is all out of state and he doesn’t have any friends here on whose couch he can crash. He’s really set himself up for absolutely needing NEEDING the cashout before he makes a single move. It’s such a drag but here we are.
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast
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How much of a cashout would he need if he wasn't burning it through alcohol?
The fact that he has no place to stay is really not your problem anymore. It also is a red flag - how many relationships has he thrown into the trash heap if he can't find ONE friend who could lend a couch?
I'm concerned that if you don't start drawing the lines hard and fast, you'll continue to let him stay at your place even AFTER the divorce is complete.
The fact that he has no place to stay is really not your problem anymore. It also is a red flag - how many relationships has he thrown into the trash heap if he can't find ONE friend who could lend a couch?
I'm concerned that if you don't start drawing the lines hard and fast, you'll continue to let him stay at your place even AFTER the divorce is complete.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Englewood
Posts: 76
Minor update
well his lawyer, who had on consulting asked for another extension to complete his financials, he hemmed and hawed about the mediation dates that I sent them and I missed all the early September dates and am looking now at the end of September. This upset me greatly and I called my lawyer in frustration saying X was totally comfortable in the house doing little to nothing and had plans to “drag this out as long as possible.” She sent him a firm email saying he’d be out of compliance and the angels trumpeted! He retained his lawyer fully who is now communicating with my lawyer. It looks as though things are moving forward. THANK GOD. In the mean time he uses the joint acct to pay his cc bills and takes kiddo to expensive water parks.
Anyway- he has no plans to move out until he gets the cashout and once we get to mediation I am mightily hoping my lawyer, my documentation and his terrible track record since he tried to start the business will play in my favor.
This sucks.
Anyway- he has no plans to move out until he gets the cashout and once we get to mediation I am mightily hoping my lawyer, my documentation and his terrible track record since he tried to start the business will play in my favor.
This sucks.
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
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get money out of harm's way! he may have rights to access the account, but you can limit the amount of funds he can GET to.
what a lousy situation. i think as soon as he heard CASH OUT, he went into "hunker down" mode and just wants the $$. again why it's never good to show your cards. he's totally happy to make your life a living hell. hoping you'll up the ante to get him out sooner.
possibly you can get some type of injunction or emergency order to have him removed. i am not offering legal advice, only know that there ARE some legal options.
if he doesn't have a job and is cash poor, how is he full time hiring an attorney?
watch all your accounts. check your credit. put holds on any credit cards. move funds out of harms way. this guy has an AGENDA.
what a lousy situation. i think as soon as he heard CASH OUT, he went into "hunker down" mode and just wants the $$. again why it's never good to show your cards. he's totally happy to make your life a living hell. hoping you'll up the ante to get him out sooner.
possibly you can get some type of injunction or emergency order to have him removed. i am not offering legal advice, only know that there ARE some legal options.
if he doesn't have a job and is cash poor, how is he full time hiring an attorney?
watch all your accounts. check your credit. put holds on any credit cards. move funds out of harms way. this guy has an AGENDA.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Englewood
Posts: 76
Yes we had a go round in July when I refused to put my entire paycheck in the joint. He flipped out and I asked my lawyer what to do. She said “pay the bills you’d normally pay.” And I had been paying everything for the last three months. So I dutifully put it in there.
Since we’ve submitted our financials we can’t make any major financial moves. I’m in the middle of qualifying for a loan so my credit is on my radar. It’s all shaky and good at the same time.
oh I’m sure he’s hiring an attorney by putting it on his cc.
Since we’ve submitted our financials we can’t make any major financial moves. I’m in the middle of qualifying for a loan so my credit is on my radar. It’s all shaky and good at the same time.
oh I’m sure he’s hiring an attorney by putting it on his cc.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Englewood
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by Zevin
How is he paying down his cc? Your name isn't on it, right?
we we don’t have joint ccs thank god. He uses the joint checking account to make the minimum payments on his cards. Over the course of our marriage we would both put in money to pay household bills. Now that he’s not making any money, I put it all in and he takes what he “needs.”
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Join Date: Sep 2015
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I completely agree with Anvil that he has an AGENDA concerning $$$. I'd be stashing as much cash away as possible.
I'd be afraid that one of these days you will find out your joint account has suddenly been cleaned out and you will have no recourse to get your half of it back.
I'd be afraid that one of these days you will find out your joint account has suddenly been cleaned out and you will have no recourse to get your half of it back.
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Originally Posted by Thursdays
we we don’t have joint ccs thank god. He uses the joint checking account to make the minimum payments on his cards. Over the course of our marriage we would both put in money to pay household bills. Now that he’s not making any money, I put it all in and he takes what he “needs.”
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Englewood
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by FeelingGreat
Hi, have you asked your lawyer about the possibility that you might become responsible for his debts on the card as you're still married?
Our mediation date is set for the end of September (ugh so long!) and we will go from there.
Hopefully between and now he will find a job but I’m not holding my breath.
Sober since 10th April 2012
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Originally Posted by Thursdays
Yes- he wants me to take on at least half his debt. This is debt he’s incurred while we were married and (he’s said) used for the family. He wants me to pay up. I’m going to try and convince him that I shouldn’t have to but the mediator will give a suggestion. Who knows.
Our mediation date is set for the end of September (ugh so long!) and we will go from there.
Hopefully between and now he will find a job but I’m not holding my breath.
Another aspect could be that the CC statements may show that he's been drinking continuously.
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