Can I ever believe...
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
Yes this! Prepare!
Originally Posted by Ariesagain 
I’m giving that tent situation a big old eyeroll...
So what are you going to do when she’s at your door drink in hand saying it’s too hot/too cold/too rainy/too buggy/too lonely/too crowded and can’t she puleeeeeze stay with you “on the couch” just for one little night?
You’re going to need some ground rules, yes? And the fortitude to stick to them.
I kind of hope that her plan changes...
Hang in there. Enjoy your time with your dog!
So what are you going to do when she’s at your door drink in hand saying it’s too hot/too cold/too rainy/too buggy/too lonely/too crowded and can’t she puleeeeeze stay with you “on the couch” just for one little night?
You’re going to need some ground rules, yes? And the fortitude to stick to them.
I kind of hope that her plan changes...
Hang in there. Enjoy your time with your dog!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 395
Woodlandlost, yeah... the more I think about this “tent living situation” the more I keep screaming “keep your boundaries” in my mind!! Honestly that sounds like a dysfunctional living environment (of course... great for drinking all day & night!) that unfortunately could cause big issues for both your daughter & you!
Let us know how you’re doing?
Let us know how you’re doing?
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,426
I have to agree-it seems like she's setting up to get back in your house and your life no matter what you want.
I would be extremely clear that she will not be welcome to stop by and she will have to manage entirely on her own. I think taking a hard line from the outset and putting it in writing / email may save you hassle in the long term. She may even back off if she gets a serious vibe from you that coming back into the home is a no-go right now.
Remember, she's pretty used manipulating you effectively and has done so with success for years. Why wouldn't she try it? My addicts also were really good at doing this to me, so I understand how easy it is to just "slip back" against your better judgement into old grooves.
Right now, given your daughter is part of the picture, I don't think that is a good call at all, whatever your personal feelings are about your wife.
She's unstable / early in sobriety, and it sounds like there is a plethora of other issues which are toxic in the situation right now as well.
Put daughter's interest first, yours second, and wife only after that right now. She needs to be in charge of herself, and you are the responsible parent making decisions that will have life-long impact on your daughter's emotional health.
I would be extremely clear that she will not be welcome to stop by and she will have to manage entirely on her own. I think taking a hard line from the outset and putting it in writing / email may save you hassle in the long term. She may even back off if she gets a serious vibe from you that coming back into the home is a no-go right now.
Remember, she's pretty used manipulating you effectively and has done so with success for years. Why wouldn't she try it? My addicts also were really good at doing this to me, so I understand how easy it is to just "slip back" against your better judgement into old grooves.
Right now, given your daughter is part of the picture, I don't think that is a good call at all, whatever your personal feelings are about your wife.
She's unstable / early in sobriety, and it sounds like there is a plethora of other issues which are toxic in the situation right now as well.
Put daughter's interest first, yours second, and wife only after that right now. She needs to be in charge of herself, and you are the responsible parent making decisions that will have life-long impact on your daughter's emotional health.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,637
What Anvil said is spot on.
I would also add that if you can't value the Father of your child just yet - how about just not enabling your wife?
You say you love her but you are supporting her lifestyle. You are saying it's all ok with you! You can lie you can cheat you can sleep around you can drug yourself in to oblivion, but want to go out for a romantic dinner on our anniversary? You are saying, with your actions, that everything is A-OK.
Ah, the tent. Well I think everyone has said what I'm thinking about the tent. Just makes you shake your head doesn't it.
Sometimes people around here say you can love an alcoholic to death. It's sounds dramatic and final and horrible - because it is, it's also true I think.
I would also add that if you can't value the Father of your child just yet - how about just not enabling your wife?
You say you love her but you are supporting her lifestyle. You are saying it's all ok with you! You can lie you can cheat you can sleep around you can drug yourself in to oblivion, but want to go out for a romantic dinner on our anniversary? You are saying, with your actions, that everything is A-OK.
Ah, the tent. Well I think everyone has said what I'm thinking about the tent. Just makes you shake your head doesn't it.
Sometimes people around here say you can love an alcoholic to death. It's sounds dramatic and final and horrible - because it is, it's also true I think.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,618
What everybody else said about the tent ...
She has all but told you she’s going to be showing up a lot this summer, so you’ve been forewarned.
Two thoughts:
1. Would it help to imagine what it would be like the day or the week after you did the sex thing with her (if you decided to take her up on her kind offer)? Do you think you would feel happy, at peace, looking forward to a brighter future (not likely)? Or do you think you’d be upset with yourself and in even more turmoil than you are now (likely)? I know Al Anon tells up not to future-trip, but I think that sometimes imagining what is likely to happen (not what you wish would happen) can prevent us from doing things we will inevitably regret.
2. About respect and your daughter ... you don’t say how old she is, but her mother is probably her most important female role model, right? Are you doing your daughter (a future young woman) any favors by exposing her to her mother at her worst? Do you want her to see the most important woman in her life behaving so badly, and risk her internalizing the idea that this is just what women do (including, possibly, your daughter herself)? You may be protecting your daughter’s future relationship with and respect for her mother by keeping said mother at a distance while she’s in an alcoholic tailspin.
She has all but told you she’s going to be showing up a lot this summer, so you’ve been forewarned.
Two thoughts:
1. Would it help to imagine what it would be like the day or the week after you did the sex thing with her (if you decided to take her up on her kind offer)? Do you think you would feel happy, at peace, looking forward to a brighter future (not likely)? Or do you think you’d be upset with yourself and in even more turmoil than you are now (likely)? I know Al Anon tells up not to future-trip, but I think that sometimes imagining what is likely to happen (not what you wish would happen) can prevent us from doing things we will inevitably regret.
2. About respect and your daughter ... you don’t say how old she is, but her mother is probably her most important female role model, right? Are you doing your daughter (a future young woman) any favors by exposing her to her mother at her worst? Do you want her to see the most important woman in her life behaving so badly, and risk her internalizing the idea that this is just what women do (including, possibly, your daughter herself)? You may be protecting your daughter’s future relationship with and respect for her mother by keeping said mother at a distance while she’s in an alcoholic tailspin.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,637
woodlandlost, I wanted to clarify my earlier post, which seemed kind of harsh.
In NO way am I blaming your for your wife's self destructive intent or for her drinking, I hope you know that.
If she were seeking recovery, trying, thinking about trying, well then it's negligible whether you having her live with you would be so very destructive (I'm talking if it were only you two).
But you do have a child and your wife isn't even thinking about recovery and she is in a very precarious state. That is her choice, of course. You seem like a nice person who has been through the wringer and you have been hurt.
I didn't mean to imply there is no hope. She could seek recovery at any time. Whether you want to wait for that is, of course, your choice.
In NO way am I blaming your for your wife's self destructive intent or for her drinking, I hope you know that.
If she were seeking recovery, trying, thinking about trying, well then it's negligible whether you having her live with you would be so very destructive (I'm talking if it were only you two).
But you do have a child and your wife isn't even thinking about recovery and she is in a very precarious state. That is her choice, of course. You seem like a nice person who has been through the wringer and you have been hurt.
I didn't mean to imply there is no hope. She could seek recovery at any time. Whether you want to wait for that is, of course, your choice.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 276
Trail:
I never felt your comment was harsh at all. Very insightful and helpful. This is a huge issue for me because addiction is all about illusion...the sweet side she projects, well intentioned is an illusion. For the moment.
I never felt your comment was harsh at all. Very insightful and helpful. This is a huge issue for me because addiction is all about illusion...the sweet side she projects, well intentioned is an illusion. For the moment.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
the sweet side
perhaps you need to work on what "being sweet" looks like to you?
it's like the joke of how good it feels when we stop hitting ourselves with a hammer. the temporary cessation of PAIN is not really what FEELING GOOD looks like.
perhaps you need to work on what "being sweet" looks like to you?
it's like the joke of how good it feels when we stop hitting ourselves with a hammer. the temporary cessation of PAIN is not really what FEELING GOOD looks like.
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Northwest
Posts: 4,215
My 15th wedding anniv. is on July 10th...that will be a hard day for sure. Every time I surf the web looking for help I always hear about the ways to love an alcoholic and the do's and don'ts...well what about when it all falls apart...somehow it seems that more people can salvage it...why I could not disturbs me and makes me feel like garbage.
I wanted to go back to this bolded part...I don’t know where you’re getting your data but at least from my experience, “more people can salvage it” just isn’t reality. Especially at the stage where the spouse has been cheating for years.
The second part is even more concerning...again, this is not yours to salvage. Yes, you have your own stuff, big stuff, to address from the fallout of this situation. But until she steps up to proactively and aggressively addressing her addictions (her affair is another one, probably), there’s nothing you can do to fix her or this marriage.
Sending you strength and whatever comfort there is...
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,637
Good point!
I meant to go back to that as well. I think perhaps what you are probably reading is some information on rehab sites? I've seen those and initially wondered why they would post such things, such unicorn stuff.
Well, they are selling something. Not only can we fix the addiction, you get to participate AND we will fix your family up for you!
I'm not saying rehab is good or bad or does or doesn't work, I'm sure there are a lot of really good ones. Just noticed that some of the postings can be quite - unrealistic. You will note they never go in to the description of the long haul that recovery is.
You didn't Cause it, can't Control it, can't Cure it.
I meant to go back to that as well. I think perhaps what you are probably reading is some information on rehab sites? I've seen those and initially wondered why they would post such things, such unicorn stuff.
Well, they are selling something. Not only can we fix the addiction, you get to participate AND we will fix your family up for you!
I'm not saying rehab is good or bad or does or doesn't work, I'm sure there are a lot of really good ones. Just noticed that some of the postings can be quite - unrealistic. You will note they never go in to the description of the long haul that recovery is.
You didn't Cause it, can't Control it, can't Cure it.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
Posts: 816
Do you attend alanon meetings? Does your daughter attend alateen?
Sorry if you have previously posted. I hope you are both going and
possibly getting counseling as well- it would be life changing for
you with a counselor that specializes in addiction.
The thing that screams at me when I read your posts is what your
DD is formulating in her belief system about what love is, what
a good relationship is, and most of all, how you should expect
someone who says they love you to treat you.
You and DD have been through alot with your AW. If you think
you are heart broken and sad now, envision a future where your
daughter has chosen a mate like your wife and is accepting the
same treatment she watched you accept all these years.
Many of us on this board are here because we chose poorly because
that was what was familiar to us and what we had modeled to us
in our formative years as children and teens.
You still have time to demonstrate to your DD what kind of behavior
she should accept in a relationship and still time to teach her through
alateen meetings and counseling how this does not have to affect
the rest of her life negatively, that she did not cause it and she
cannot control it or cure it.
Sorry if you have previously posted. I hope you are both going and
possibly getting counseling as well- it would be life changing for
you with a counselor that specializes in addiction.
The thing that screams at me when I read your posts is what your
DD is formulating in her belief system about what love is, what
a good relationship is, and most of all, how you should expect
someone who says they love you to treat you.
You and DD have been through alot with your AW. If you think
you are heart broken and sad now, envision a future where your
daughter has chosen a mate like your wife and is accepting the
same treatment she watched you accept all these years.
Many of us on this board are here because we chose poorly because
that was what was familiar to us and what we had modeled to us
in our formative years as children and teens.
You still have time to demonstrate to your DD what kind of behavior
she should accept in a relationship and still time to teach her through
alateen meetings and counseling how this does not have to affect
the rest of her life negatively, that she did not cause it and she
cannot control it or cure it.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 276
Thanks again...
Yes I had been reading rehab site testimonials and fluffy internet articles...seems like people just magically resolve all the pain and become happier ever after. I chuckle because we can't go a minute without a jab or a barb....thank you for the reality check. Most reputable people who have been through the process advise not even to live with the recovering spouse for the first year of sobriety because things are still insane albeit on a path towards recovery.
It was my 15th wedding anniversary today. I haven't been too bad because I have kept myself insanely busy, cleaning the house, getting the airbnb suite ready for guests, cleaned out a goat pen, levelled some ground, built a goat playground...now I am going out for dinner with a friend. I know the reality will hit me at some point, but whatever...I feel pain and sadness a lot, I can handle it.
Thanks to all.
Yes I had been reading rehab site testimonials and fluffy internet articles...seems like people just magically resolve all the pain and become happier ever after. I chuckle because we can't go a minute without a jab or a barb....thank you for the reality check. Most reputable people who have been through the process advise not even to live with the recovering spouse for the first year of sobriety because things are still insane albeit on a path towards recovery.
It was my 15th wedding anniversary today. I haven't been too bad because I have kept myself insanely busy, cleaning the house, getting the airbnb suite ready for guests, cleaned out a goat pen, levelled some ground, built a goat playground...now I am going out for dinner with a friend. I know the reality will hit me at some point, but whatever...I feel pain and sadness a lot, I can handle it.
Thanks to all.
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Northwest
Posts: 4,215
I hope this is an okay time to say this to you...
Of those fifteen years, your wife was drinking problematically for ten? And had at least one long-term affair that’s lasted for two and a half years?
The marriage may be fifteen years chronologically, but how many of those years were good ones? Even halfway okay ones?
You seem like a really good guy. At some point, I hope soon, you will decide if you really want to spend any more of your precious time on earth this way. There’s another life out there for you that isn’t spent dancing around insanity.
Thanks for posting and I hope you had a lovely evening.
Of those fifteen years, your wife was drinking problematically for ten? And had at least one long-term affair that’s lasted for two and a half years?
The marriage may be fifteen years chronologically, but how many of those years were good ones? Even halfway okay ones?
You seem like a really good guy. At some point, I hope soon, you will decide if you really want to spend any more of your precious time on earth this way. There’s another life out there for you that isn’t spent dancing around insanity.
Thanks for posting and I hope you had a lovely evening.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 223
As far as whether other people manage to make it through the other side of addiction with their relationships intact, I think it’s worth considering that keeping a relationship together isn’t always a better outcome.
When I was realizing I needed to leave my XAH I would do things like Google “leaving your alcoholic husband“ and all I would get would be advice about how to save a marriage. I think there’s a lot of value to Al-Anon, but I think a lot of people approach it from the perspective of surviving through a marriage to an alcoholic, rather than getting the hell out when that is the right decision for you.
are there a lot of people who stay with their addicts? Absolutely. Are they making the right decision? Not so clear. My divorce ended up being rather public because I needed to activate my emergency childcare network which consisted significantly of coworkers while my ex was in the hospital and uncertain to make it. Since then I have had several conversations with people I have known for a long time, who I learned during that process that they had been married to an alcoholic or a recovering alcoholic for a long time. Many of them told me they envied my strength in making the decision I did.
by the time you are ready to rip your heart out and start over, I think there’s a darn good chance you are doing the right thing, and when you come out the other side of the storm and see past the messaging of “marriage before self” you will know you did the right thing.
When I was realizing I needed to leave my XAH I would do things like Google “leaving your alcoholic husband“ and all I would get would be advice about how to save a marriage. I think there’s a lot of value to Al-Anon, but I think a lot of people approach it from the perspective of surviving through a marriage to an alcoholic, rather than getting the hell out when that is the right decision for you.
are there a lot of people who stay with their addicts? Absolutely. Are they making the right decision? Not so clear. My divorce ended up being rather public because I needed to activate my emergency childcare network which consisted significantly of coworkers while my ex was in the hospital and uncertain to make it. Since then I have had several conversations with people I have known for a long time, who I learned during that process that they had been married to an alcoholic or a recovering alcoholic for a long time. Many of them told me they envied my strength in making the decision I did.
by the time you are ready to rip your heart out and start over, I think there’s a darn good chance you are doing the right thing, and when you come out the other side of the storm and see past the messaging of “marriage before self” you will know you did the right thing.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 276
Holy cow. I really needed that tonight. Got home from my dinner. Too much pasta and appys. Daughter with my parents until Sunday. Just me and the dog now. Starting to feel it a bit now. The advice tonight was amazing. The part of me still hanging on, I need to look at that. How much more of my precious life do I want to spend in the land on insane...well no more really.
Just gonna sit here with the sadness and see how it goes. Thank you
Just gonna sit here with the sadness and see how it goes. Thank you
Member
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 395
Today was no doubt very overwhelming for you. But I’m unclear as to what you really want? We have all provided solid, constructive advice for many weeks but it doesn’t seem like you’re quite ready to implement any boundaries and/or what you’re actually planning to do to help yourself... & most importantly, help your daughter sort through the chaos of her parents’ constant rollercoaster ride.
Listen, I feel your pain... that it’s so overwhelming... I understand. We all have struggled with the insane addicts in (or once in) our lives. The question is: what do you truly want? You’ve not mentioned any concrete decisions or boundaries you are planning to create. Maybe you’re just not ready to let go.... this is what I’m feeling from you.
Could be wrong...?
If that’s the case, she’ll just continue doing what she’s doing. And you’ll keep accepting what she’s doing. And your daughter will assume accepting intolerable behavior is what she should be doing as well.
We all make choices. You have a choice.
Listen, I feel your pain... that it’s so overwhelming... I understand. We all have struggled with the insane addicts in (or once in) our lives. The question is: what do you truly want? You’ve not mentioned any concrete decisions or boundaries you are planning to create. Maybe you’re just not ready to let go.... this is what I’m feeling from you.
Could be wrong...?
If that’s the case, she’ll just continue doing what she’s doing. And you’ll keep accepting what she’s doing. And your daughter will assume accepting intolerable behavior is what she should be doing as well.
We all make choices. You have a choice.
Community Greeter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
wll…...for what it is worth----Some time ago I read that of those who had been through a long rocky road of hell with their alcoholic...that the marriages tended to end AFTER the alcoholic quit drinking --more frequently than they did before the alcoholic stopped drinking....
There were lots of reasons...dynamics that supported why that m ight be true....
I can't, for the life of me, remember where I read or heard about this....
Of course, we all know that there are not any good statistics of alcoholism and outcomes, for obvious reasons....
However, I can tend to believe this might be true...especially for the marriages that have been eroded for a long time....
And, we have seen many testimonies that recovery is not exactly a Maypole Dance for the alcoholic or the partner...…
We see here, on this forum, that the fantasy that all will be well if the alcoholic just stops drinking, is what keeps the partner hanging on through thick and thin...When this does not prove to be the case,I think that is, often, the straw that breaks the camels back....
these are some of my musings on the subject....
***I have a suspicion that you may bein the process of grieving (or pre-grieving) the loss of the relationship that you wanted it to be....and, grieving takes time and has many stages and can be very confusing and disorienting....like a kalidescope of emotions...
There were lots of reasons...dynamics that supported why that m ight be true....
I can't, for the life of me, remember where I read or heard about this....
Of course, we all know that there are not any good statistics of alcoholism and outcomes, for obvious reasons....
However, I can tend to believe this might be true...especially for the marriages that have been eroded for a long time....
And, we have seen many testimonies that recovery is not exactly a Maypole Dance for the alcoholic or the partner...…
We see here, on this forum, that the fantasy that all will be well if the alcoholic just stops drinking, is what keeps the partner hanging on through thick and thin...When this does not prove to be the case,I think that is, often, the straw that breaks the camels back....
these are some of my musings on the subject....
***I have a suspicion that you may bein the process of grieving (or pre-grieving) the loss of the relationship that you wanted it to be....and, grieving takes time and has many stages and can be very confusing and disorienting....like a kalidescope of emotions...
Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 868
Woodland, these folks here are the best! Hang tough buddy. Believe me I know the pain. Ripping your heart out is a kind way of saying what we feel. You HAVE to put yourself first. Tough love is the only way you can gain some clarity and see the manipulations for what it is. Keep posting and stay focused on yourself. All the love...❤️
Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 821
Originally Posted by DiggingForFire
I think there’s a lot of value to Al-Anon, but I think a lot of people approach it from the perspective of surviving through a marriage to an alcoholic, rather than getting the hell out when that is the right decision for you.
None of this is what AlAnon is all about. AlAnon is where we learn to re-orient ourselves away from fearful obsession over others and toward a firm foundation in our spirituality and ourselves. AlAnon does not recommend a course of action or any attitude other than looking with ourselves for guidance. I go to many meetings in our area and the situations vary greatly. AlAnon is about fellowship and strengthening our connection to our own spiritual guidance. The program is not about saving anything other than our own serenity.
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