Bernadette

As much as I desperately want to stay and feign the happy family, how can I knowing my presence enables him? He screws up, apologizes, and we try again the next day. And so on and so on.

And this pattern and dynamic is so unhealthy for children to live through and be a part of, and just like alcoholism this pattern, which while it may help the codependent spouse function through another day, this pattern, just like alcoholism, gets worse and worse and uglier and uglier over the years and is so damaging to the children. I know, because I lived through it with my A Father and Codie Mom. It damaged all 5 of us kids. And yeah yeah my father also loved us and was an awesome person when sober etc. That's why this cr@p is so hard, if they were just fire breathing dragons 24/7 we'd all know what to do in an instant. But here's the rub: life with an active alcoholic? Your house IS on fire. Respond appropriately.

Talk is talk. Yes it would be great if he joins AA and maintains sobriety and you see him recover (which is a recognizable thing). But you cannot make that happen and certainly you cannot make that happen soon enough in the lives of children. My Dad ultimately started recovering when I was a teenager, 3 of my older siblings were grown and out of the house, but the damage was done, and that damage included warped relationships between my Mom and all us children who had been forced to live through not only the hell of an alcoholic father but the hell of Mom's denial and covering up and rage and controlling codie behaviors our whole lives. It damaged her so much.

Life in the A home is Crazy Town. And I'm always astonished to read on this board how many of the non-drinking parents really belive that they have somehow "shielded" their kids or that their kids don't know much. That's denial. I knew in 1st grade, so what's that 5 or 6 years old, that something was very wrong and different in our family.

What a huge difference it would have made in all us kids' lives if some thoughtful sober adult (wow if it had been Mom then the whole world would have been better!) had just told us, "This is alcoholism. You didn't Cause it, you can't Control it, and you Can't Cure it. It doesn;t mean your Dad doesn't love you or that you can't love him; but it does mean that we all need to be honest about it and have our boundaries in firm place. And it's very confusing and I'm here to talk to you about it anytime you need to ask a question." That would have given us a shot at healthier lives. We were all well educated, lived in a nice neighborhood, dad never lost his job, we were encouraged to go to college etc. 3/3 brothers became alcoholics! Might they have had a different road if someone had been honest with us as children? Well, we'll just never know.

Protect the minor children. The adult alcoholic knows where to go to get healthy. Addiction may prevent them from getting healthy and recovering, it is a formidable foe. But that's all on their side of the street.

Once I accepted that my loved ones were alcoholics and they were just doing what alcoholics do (which is drink and lie), then I discovered with AlAnon's help that I was free, in each moment, to make MY choices of what I wanted to do. I could focus on things I can control: my problems, my goals, my dreams. Life got 100% better by practicing that!

Peace,
B.

atalose

Good father’s don’t drive drunk with their children in a car and not in a car seat. His poor decision making skills have been corrupted by the progression of his disease of alcoholism making him a dangerous father right now.

Actions not words are what you gauge the truth on. He’s using “words” words he knows you want to hear but no real actions have taken place. It’s those actions and with a long period of time consistently doing those actions to remain sober is how you will gauge if he’s serious or not. Many talk a good game, say all the things we want to hear but lack on any real sustainable actions.

Protecting the alcoholic is not helping you and doesn’t really help him either. I guess you have to figure out what is more important to you, keeping the illusion alive or dealing with reality and getting loving support from people who love you. You don't have to shout it from the rooftops that your husband has a drinking problem but you need support, support from wonderful friends.

No, it’s not easy and it is a lot to take in and a lot to think about. I’m glad you have a therapist you can talk with. And glad you found SR. You might want to think about checking out an al-anon meeting which are for the family and friends of alcoholics.

So sorry you are going through this.

Bernadette

From atalose: I guess you have to figure out what is more important to you, keeping the illusion alive or dealing with reality and getting loving support from people who love you.

Yes this!

fortworthnative I'm so glad you're here and reaching out to people who get what you;re going through. Collectively we've seen it all on SR - you are not alone - and just posting here and reaching out is a huge step on what we all know is a tough, tough road for you! (((hugs)))

My mother also had a great circle of friends, dear friends, and family. Years after my father recovered and I was in AlAnon I asked her if she ever confided in anyone during Dad's drinking years and she said, "No, my friends never knew."

This made me so sad, because of course her friends knew! You couldn't be at a party or any event with my Dad and not notice that he was drunk and that he drank 10x as much as anyone else! So, of course they knew, and they also knew that Mom was trying to hide it, pretend it wasn't happening, pretend it wasn't so bad, and that she was ashamed of it and so invested in denial and covering up.

As an adult, when I read about the hallmarks of alcoholism in families I learned that denial is #1, and each time the sober spouse engages in denial they are actually scoring points for Team Alcohol! The addiction thrives in secrecy and shame. And so does the codependent behavior. A tandem dynamic that keeps the status quo and serves the addiction.

peace,
B.

DiggingForFire

FWN

atalose

I don’t think anyone is telling you to not forgive him and to leave him right now. I think we are just trying to tell you what the path of living with active alcoholism looks like and often it’s not pretty. Those stressful things you witness, the lies the deception those are the cornerstone of alcoholism.

If he doesn’t stop drinking then you’ll have to find a way to live with those things and not take them personally. You may have to find other ways to cope by not being around him in the evenings when he drinks.

Not to scare you but something you may need to prepare yourself for is, I’m sure the police had to report the incident to child services. Then there is the DUI issue to deal with. How will losing his license impact his job? How will that impact your life?

hopeful4

As always, hope and pray for the best, plan and protect for the worst.

Bernadette

Hi DiggingForFire - not to hijack this thread but it sounds to me like you are answering your daughter age appropriately. As she gets older and as you keep lines of communication open she deserves more information. Honest and accurate words really matter I think. As well as compassion, for we all know the A is struggling, and as miserable as they can make our lives I wouldn't ever want to be caught in the deadly misery of addiction. So we can express compassion for the sick parent but explain how addiction works and why that leads to very strict non-enabling behaviors and boundaries etc.

But as I mentioned, my Mom, nor any other adult in our lives ever addressed it directly - so maybe start a new thread and ask for ppl's experiences - there are definitely some parents on here who have been having these conversations with their kids so they will offer good ESH (experience, strength, hope!).

Peace,
B.

trailmix

One I think that really helps is to always remember they are not "two" people. He is one person, the guy at lunch and the guy after work, this is the same man.

As mentioned, no one here is suggesting you leave. I hear that a lot here when people first arrive. The negative picture painted (and lets be honest here, there is nothing positive about alcoholism in a relationship) can sometimes be a bit shocking to someone who has just arrived at SR.

I think it's somewhat thinking - these people have obviously given up on their spouse/family member/loved one! They don't think it can be healed.

Well, I think it can, I believe it. There are people who post in this very forum who have come through the fire to the other side and are living proof that it can happen.

There are also many who post here that are still with their Husband or Wife - while the SO continues along in active addiction.

I think what you are seeing here is a mix of different experiences and that can be very helpful.

dandylion

fwn…...most everybody you know will have someone in their family who is an alxoholic or know someone, close to them, who is or is married to an alcoholic....you are just not aware of it, because they are hiding it or not talking, openly, about it....

Just so you know....Early Reciovery is considered, at the very minimum, one year. More like 2 or 3. 4. 5.....depending on who you talk to.
Heck...it takes 6 months before the brain, itself to return to normal neurological functioning....sometimes, more.. For the thinking, attitude, and behaviors...it takes much longer.
There is much more to this than just putting down the bottle...that is "sobriety" (an alcohol blood level of zero). It requires a pivotal life-style change, for it to last a lifetime.
this takes commitment to working a vigorous program as a person's number one priority, over everything else...It takes a big investment in time and effort....and it is not easy. Meetings most every day...working with a sponsor and a therapist or counselor, in addition....and, doing 'give back" work....and working all of the 12 steps...…
It doesn't end...as one must live by these principles for a lifetime.....
And...every alcoholic proceeds according to their own needs....no one can give you a timeline....

It is said that you can tell when an alcoholic is getting into genuine recovery...not just sober...by sensing a deep change in the way they behave.....they will demonstrate an effort to be h onest in all of their endeavors...they will not be taking other people's inventory...they will demonstrate a humility that is no previously seen.....etc...…

Now, he probably won't know these things...but, it is important that YOU know these things...so that you can protect yourself by naïve hope.....
By the way...lol....they are not AA "classes"....that is way to passive.....they are meetings where one is actively involved in the process.....that is what makes AA so effective....being involved in the group dynamic...…

If you have good support where you are, right now. it sounds like it would be the most healthy place for you to be....

You may love him...but, you may have to learn to love from a safe distance....

pizza67

Sleepyhollo

Hi FWN
I could’ve written the same story pretty much. First of all, your husband is definitely an alcoholic and he is far from being functional. He might be functional at work and when he is out and about with friends but at home is clearly dysfunctional. He is not there for you emotionally and I am betting you are not getting your emotional/physical needs met. He is drinking vodka because it is pretty much odorless. Wine and beer smell too much to he is getting his fix with vodka. He drove drunk with your kid who was unrestrained and feel asleep at the side of the road. That is inexcusable and also DUI are very expensive. And what if he drives drunk and kills someone’s?
My ex stopped several times over the years, never sought therapy because he couldn’t possible go to AA because he has a professional job and knows a ton of people in this town. Al sot 5 years ago he was getting out of control again. He was studying for his boards, he was stressed at work, always tired and grumpy. A couple of days before he had to take his boards (they are only once a year) he went to the office to study, all day. We were supposed to go to dinner with a few friends and kids that night. I called him because he was cutting it close. He came home and I could tell by his behavior that he was drunk. I was really fuming mad! He drive home completely wasted, I found a bottle of vodka in his bag. He was too drunk to even realize he hadn’t gotten rid of it. I didn’t say anything and was just short with him. We went to dinner, and of course no one realized he was wasted. He is a happy mellow drunk so hard to know unless you know. I knew all of his little behaviors, the way he walks, he gets overly friendly with people and sort of touchy feels (not in a sexual way at all but it bothered my a lot because I knew it was because he was drunk). I didn’t say anything because he had to take his boards and I knew if I brought it up he would likely not do well because he goes into a deep depression everytime I got him to stop drinking (like going to be after work kind of a thing and letting me fend for myself, which truthfully I have done since our kid was born anyway). The evening after the boards I brought it up with him. I myself had to take boards a few days later and I did not want to leave my kid with a drunk (she was just 4 at the time). He felt sorry, understood he could never drink again, didn’t realize how isolating it was for me (like you I never talked to anyone about it to protect him) etc. I suggested maybe treatment and he wanted to try on his own one more time. He quit, for 13 months, but it was still miserable. I learned later it was because he was a dry drunk. His behaviors has not changed he just no lo get had his one coping skill, when he quit that time I was still optimistic that it would work (I was clueless about the progression of addiction and addiction in general ) . However slowly but surely I started really doing my own thing and no longer caring if he joined us for get together BBQ etc. Unknowingly I started to detach. Fast forward to a year alter when he started again and that is when things went really downhill. Somehow I realized (again I still had not had the sense to educate myself) that confronting him again would just lead to him stopping for a while, then restarting, rinse and repeat. So I let it go. Almost a year later I knew something had to happen because I could no longer handle it. I couldn’t trust him with our kid, I checked his levels constantly, was getting disgusted by him, he soiled the end a few times and would pass out on the couch regularly because he was so tired from work. No one knew including our high school age niece and adult daughter who were living with us. We went on vacation to Europe to visit family l would be staying 2 additional weeks with my kid alone. The last few days together he was drunk the whole time. He left and I was so relieved, it was the most relaxed I had been in a long time even though I was stressed about that something would need to happen after vacation. About a month after we had come home (because we had several things going on that I didn’t want to ruin....) I confronted him. I was done and ready to leave, I have him an ultimatum. Later he admitted that he himself had gotten to the point that he knew he could not continue and that is the only reason the ultimatum worked. 2 years earlier it would not have worked at all (but I had not reached my limit so ther was no ultimatum). Long story short, he was sent to mandatory rehab for 90 days which really did not help our relationship. It made it worse. Rehab was hard for both of us (and not because I was on my own for 90 days because really it didn’t make much of a difference ). He has worked very hard at recovery and has been sober for 2.5 years but our marriage did not survive. I was too far gone and could not come back from all of that. It sucks for my kids but I’m not regretting it.

Recovery is really hard. And unlesss your husband is doing it for him he will not succeed (my ex quit several times because I asked him to). It took my ex 7 weeks of rehab before he finally started understanding his manipulative behaviors and he had done his share of gaslighting as well. And that was with daily therapy and lots of meeting, from what you are describing your husband will need a lot more than just AA meetings. And if he is serious and working hard at it i would still give it a year before you know if he has really changed for the better or not, they are good about keeping up appearances for a while without being truly recovered, but that won’t last if they aren’t doing the work. Your kids are already being affected, they just don’t know why. My kid remembers daddy always being tired and cranky but she didn’t know why.
Pleas don’t protect him any longer, talk to your close friends and family. Don’t keep it a secret. It weighs very heavily and is a huge reason why I ended up with an enormous amount of resentment. Once people knew I felt so much better. You also realize that lots of people are affected by alcoholism. Don’t let him be alone with your kids anymore. Once I had my kid I did most of the driving because “I had the newer car”. Subconsciously it was because did not want him driving my kid really even though he only had a couple of glasses of wine if we went out. That last year especially I basically did not leave him alone with my kid. If I had to go do something she would go to a friend for a play date because it was fun (but really because I didn’t trust him). I was a pro at covering for him. I regret that now but I didn’t know any better. I’m glad you are in therapy, from the little you have said your therapist seems to know about addiction. I wish I would have sought therapy before everything blew up. You are education get yourself, again something I didn’t do until he went to rehab. So you are ahead of the game really and that is good.
My ex also was a good man and father (or so I thought ) he never laid a hand on my but really was emotionally abusive in retrospect. Not because he is a bad person but because he was a drunk. I was emotionally neglected really as well, but I just kept plugging along. Hoping that one day he would quit drinking and all would be well. Except it doesn’t work that way. Quitting drinking is only a small part, I learned later that some really important convos we had about sensitive issues he does not remember having at all, and at the time of the convo he totally minimized my feeling and gaslit me making me feel like the person at fault. So I quit bringing up issues which of course is bad for the relationship,
Read codependent no more and watch Pleasure Unwoven if you can, it explains addiction and alcoholism really well.
Find kid friendly books about alcoholism and talk to your kids about it. They know something is up and will make their own reality which is likely much worse than the actual issue (which is bad enough). Once your oldest can read see if you can go to Betty fords children’s program. They have it in Texas, not sure where. My kid went to it right before she turned 7 and it was really good. She knows all about addiction and it helps teach them about emotions, that it is a disease and that daddy (or whoever) cannot control it, that it isn’t anything they did or anyone did that made him drink, that they cannot help him etc. I highly recommend it.
Sorry for the long post. The recognize myself in much of what you write other than I just have one kid and she was 6 when everything blew up.
Your husband needs to show you he is working it, telling you what he is going to do is useless. Plus 2 weeks sober of even 2 months is just a drop in a bucket. It will take longer than that to know if he is truly recovering.
I wish you luck, I bet you found that when you weren’t at home that your stress level went down a lot. Your H will do what he is gonna do whether you are home or not, don’t let him make you believe that you being at home will make him quit easier. Take care of you and the kids. You have no control over him. He needs to do it all himself the quitting that is. He ha slickly been drinking a lot more than you think for along time, he just got worse at hiding it.

honeypig

FWN, I just want to say that if you do in fact realize that your being present isn't going to get him sober, that he doesn't "need you" for his recovery, you are many steps ahead of where many of us were when we first came here. Good for you!

And that IS the absolute truth--your presence hasn't changed anything so far, why would it be necessary for him to get sober NOW? While recovery doesn't happen in a vacuum, it's also not going to happen b/c of anyone's efforts but his own.

Wishing you the clarity to see your path and the courage and strength to follow it.

velma929

You assessment that your FIL became an alcoholic after his children were grown may or may not be accurate. My dad was functional until he was in his sixties or seventies. In retrospect, there were incidents when he drank too much before I was out of high school. It probably is why I didn't consider my late husband's drinking a problem or unusual.

It's not clear if you work or not. If you can leave home and are free to stay away for an indeterminate amount of time, I'm guessing you don't? I'm wondering if his business becomes unmanageable or unprofitable, what happens then to all of you?

Perhaps I'm missing something, but you paint this as living in another city without him, or going back to live with him. Is there some reason you can't live in the same area or near him, but the two of you in separate homes?

I won't go into the whole thing here, but when Dad was 76, he went to prison for DWI manslaughter. My parents lost half their life's savings in the civil suit that followed. Unless one has OJ Simpson-like wealth, no lawyer will represent you on that civil suit. You're looking at losing most of your money, so of course he or she won't be paid. There are certain things that *can't* be taken. Since it sounds like you intend to stay married, I would see a lawyer about how to protect yourself, financially.

dandylion

fortworthnative…...We are not saying that "he cannot be saved".....
It is just that HE will have to be the one to save himself. You cannot do it, for him. And, he does not need your support, by his side, either....In fact, that might even get in his way...by allowing him to maintain the status-quo,,,where he can drink in more comfort and secrecy.....
You don't have to stop loving him...but, you may have to love him from a safe distance....
Him being your confidant...and "best friend"....and partner...has not prevented him from bringing misery into the home and family.....
It may be that you will need to use your wonderful family and support system to become those that you confide in, and seek the comforts that friendship offers.....You may not be able to get all of your interpersonal needs met from just him.....The alcoholism has/will cut into his ability to be all of that....
Your necessity to protect yourself and your children from the ravages of untreated alcoholism will necessitate changes on your own part...…..
Perhaps, it is too soon to expect you to process all of this and to welcome necessary changes with open arms....but, change will, inevitably, become necessary......

FWN

A couple more pieces of helpful information... I do work from home and I make a good income, so I have the ability to work remote anywhere and fortunately do not feel 'stuck' financially. My friends and family live about 5 hours away where I grew up, we moved where we live now for my husbands job 3 years ago.

Update: my husband took it very hard that we were gone from him for a week and having no idea when we'd be back. We talked several times on the phone and I matter of fact told him my stance at this point. I'm not interested in continuing on this way anymore. The lying and false promises of 'trying harder' and kicking the can down the road are too much for me. Because we've had the conversation on multiple occasions where he had made it CLEAR that he would never move out of our house (we just moved in 8 months ago, I spent 2 years of my life designing and building the house and we both are very attached to it) I told him we'd be staying where we were and building our home there.

Well, this week of me being away looking at schools for our children and figuring out where we'd live made him change his mind on his willingness to move out. He said he didn't want to lose his family and that if he cannot get this under control than he'd move out until he had it under control.

Me and the kids came back to live with him yesterday and he knows his deadline. I take the boys on a vacation with my parents next week and if he's not actively seeking sobriety with outside help by the time we are back, then will have to move out or we will. And even if he is seeking help, there will be no more drinking in this house or he will have to move out. Or we will.

Part of me feels like a cold hearted B at this point but honestly I don't know how else to react to all of this. I cannot live with someone who lies to me and selfishly puts me through all of this stress and heart ache. My main feelings right now
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wrote the above and then...
He came home from work last night and spent time with the boys outside and in the garage. My older child came inside asking where his dad was and I said he should either be outside or in the garage. I walk outside to see him coming out of the garage and my first instinct is that he was quickly drinking in there.
He comes inside and I asked him 'were you drinking in the garage?' and he said yes, he drank 2 beers. He said he didn't want to lie to me about it and that I was right, he started rationalizing in his head that he should drink and went for it. We talked later after the boys went down and he says that while he feels like this was a set back (he'd agreed not to drink), he says he's beginning to understand what I've been telling him, that his mind is playing tricks on him and in the moment he doesn't feel he has control over his choices. So maybe that's progress.
He told me he'd look into and attend 2 out of the 3 options here in town while we are on our trip and understands the ramifications if he decides he's not going to pursue sobriety. That he will have to move out and only see his kids when he makes the choice not to drink. Baby steps in the right direction I hope.

hopeful4

Maybe so. "Checking out" and "thinking about" attending meetings is not going. My XAH would have agreed to anything, and did so, when I put those kind of rules on him as well. It never lasted because I wanted it, not him.

Thing is, recovery is about YOU. You have to want it, and be willing to work for it, every single day, forever. It's not a commitment many can make unless they really want it badly for themselves. Time will tell of course.

The thing to do now is to take good care of you and your children. Let him figure out what he is going to do, and do it, or not.

Sending a big hug to you!

trailmix

Yes, the fact that he realizes that his mind isn't thinking about this clearly is a good thing.

The fact that he quickly slipped in to the garage for a couple of beers when he was spending time with the kids is not.

I think your timing of all this is spot on. You have told him your boundaries, you are now exiting the house to go on holiday next week.

I don't mean to be a downer here, but you have said to this man that you are exiting the house with the children if he doesn't sober up and now. First thing he does is get a drink, second he didn't say I am on my way to an AA meeting, he is going to look in to it "next week".

As they say, more will be revealed.

ladyscribbler

I did a temporary separation from my ex, during which he was supposed to get sober and pursue a program of recovery.

The night I came back he was sitting there with a beer in his hand and a pile of empties by his side. I was devastated and told him so.

"You were supposed to be getting sober! That's why I came back."

"When was that ever a condition?"

"It was always the only condition!"

To this day he denies that I left because of his drinking behavior. Try not to be surprised if he unilaterally changes the "agreement" you have.
I had so many seemingly productive conversations with him where I thought that I had really gotten through to him, but like Hopeful said, he would have said anything to get me off his back and keep drinking in peace.

Hawkeye13

Actions are speaking much louder than his rhetoric right now.

Drinking around his kids right when you get back in the home?
"Checking out" a meeting instead of having already been several times?

Any therapy or outpatient lined up? Even one phone call made by him on his own behalf?

He's full of something and right now it isn't "actively seeking sobriety" or recovery.

You are doing great setting your boundary--you must stick to it despite all the excuses you are most likely to hear about why things didn't / couldn't / don't need to happen on the agreed-upon timetable.

Wishing all of your family the best and I really hope he gets how serious this is and gets moving on his recovery.