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Old 06-12-2019, 08:20 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Spot on perspective on narcissism


I think that there might be a lot of overlap between A and narcissism. Idk which is the chicken and which is the egg but there seems like there’s some correlation. Maybe booze brings it out? Idk.

I read this explanation of why a narcissist picks fights and it rang true.

“The narcissist craves for you to ask them, “Why are you acting strange, what’s wrong?”

Just so they can reply with, “Nothing!” And a shoulder shrug to dismiss themselves before you start asking more questions.

Narcissist want unsolved problems to exist within their relationships because it fuels the toxic environment that will eventually strip away your virtues, your patience, and inner peace.

The narcissist wishes to keep their victim in an anxious state. They never want you to be able to calculate or predict their next attack on you.

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Old 06-12-2019, 08:25 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Interesting perspective but sometimes I think that some views on narcissism and narcissists gives them too much credit.

I don't believe that narcissists (those with true NPD or just high up on the scale) are born having talent to be some kind of brilliant evil mastermind manipulators.

Sure, they get a lot of practice as they go, but some people are just better at manipulation than others. Some relationships take more manipulation than others.

I'm going to say there can't be a relationship with a narcissist that doesn't have unresolved problems in it, that's a given.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:33 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Makes it about them, the baiting and keeping someone in an anxious state.

Here the anxious state would include constantly putting some kind of pressure on you to make a request or decision go their way. They love to create a sense urgency or dire emergency for a ride to a bar. I must meet them there for a job offer or collect money they owe, can't skip this. More excuses and rationalizations follow. Along with the frantic demeanor.

Don't take the bait. Do not engage. Do not let things turn into a negotiation. Keep those boundaries well defined.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:13 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by trailmix View Post
Interesting perspective but sometimes I think that some views on narcissism and narcissists gives them too much credit.

I don't believe that narcissists (those with true NPD or just high up on the scale) are born having talent to be some kind of brilliant evil mastermind manipulators.

Sure, they get a lot of practice as they go, but some people are just better at manipulation than others. Some relationships take more manipulation than others.

I'm going to say there can't be a relationship with a narcissist that doesn't have unresolved problems in it, that's a given.
Yeah I agree about them not really being brilliant evil masterminds. It seems like most of it isn't quite intentional.

To me, narcissism seems to be a combination of different (toxic) defense mechanisms and the ability to see the type of people they work against (codependents)
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:32 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by pizza67 View Post
I think that there might be a lot of overlap between A and narcissism. Idk which is the chicken and which is the egg but there seems like there’s some correlation. Maybe booze brings it out? Idk.

I read this explanation of why a narcissist picks fights and it rang true.

“The narcissist craves for you to ask them, “Why are you acting strange, what’s wrong?”

Just so they can reply with, “Nothing!” And a shoulder shrug to dismiss themselves before you start asking more questions.

Narcissist want unsolved problems to exist within their relationships because it fuels the toxic environment that will eventually strip away your virtues, your patience, and inner peace.

The narcissist wishes to keep their victim in an anxious state. They never want you to be able to calculate or predict their next attack on you.

How true! Displaying moods and .making an atmosphere so questions will be asked. They just like to keep you on that knife edge.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:50 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Absolutely spot on! I usto be this way with my narcissistic XAH, always anxious, asking whats wrong, typical codie behavior.

It drives him crazy that he does not get that reaction out of me anymore. It took a long time, but it feels oh so good!
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:50 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
I think that there might be a lot of overlap between A and narcissism. Idk which is the chicken and which is the egg but there seems like there’s some correlation. Maybe booze brings it out? Idk.
I am an alcoholic. I just went to the Mayo clinic website to check out their section on narcissistic personality disorder. I don't believe that I fit in the category in either my active drinking years nor in my recovery years. I don't know about other alcoholics but for me narcissistic personality disorder is not applicable.

Narcissistic personality disorder can be found in a wide range of lifestyles, sometimes accompanied by alcoholism, sometimes not.

Alcoholism does however highlight the negative aspects of a person which then overshadow the positive aspects of that person and even sends the positive aspects into hibernation. Hard work and recovery can awaken those positive aspects which can then work on diminishing the negative aspects.
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:28 AM   #8 (permalink)
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we also can't overlook the JERK factor.....
some people are just jerks, drunk or sober.
some people while having the capacity to care about others, choose to not waste the effort.
some people love to be the center of attention and that is where enablers come in super handy.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:06 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I haven't post in ages but read occasionally.

I listen to books on my commute and these are two I just finished.

Becoming the Narcissist's Nightmare
By: Shahida Arabi

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Publisher's Summary

Although clinical research has been conducted on narcissism as a disorder, less is known about its effects on victims who are in toxic relationships with partners with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Individuals with this disorder engage in chronic devaluation and manipulation of their partners, a psychological and emotional phenomenon known as "narcissistic abuse". Unfortunately, the full extent of what narcissistic abuse entails is not taught in any psychology class or diagnostic manual. Since pathological narcissists are unlikely to seek treatment for their disorder, it is difficult to pinpoint what exactly makes a narcissistic abuser tick and the manipulative tactics they use, which are likely to differ from those of other types of abusers as they are more covert and underhanded. What is even more baffling is the addiction we form with our narcissistic abusers, created by biochemical bonds and trauma bonds that are also unlike any other relationship we experience.

Using the latest scientific research as well as thousands of survivor accounts, this book will explore how the emotional manipulation tactics of narcissistic and antisocial partners affect those around them, particularly with regards to its cumulative socioemotional and psychological effects on the victim. It will also address questions such as: What successful techniques, tools, and healing modalities (both traditional and alternative) are available to survivors who have been ridiculed, manipulated, verbally abused, and subject to psychological warfare? What can survivors do to better engage in self-love and self-care? How can they forge the path to healthier relationships, especially if they've been a victim of narcissistic abuse by multiple people or raised by a narcissist? Most importantly, how can they use their experiences of narcissistic abuse to empower themselves towards personal development? What can their interactions with a narcissistic abuser teach them about themselves, their relationship patterns, and the wounds that still need to be healed in order to move forward into the happy relationships and victorious lives they do deserve?
While our qualifiers may or may not be "narcissist's" I do believe that a lot of addicts do have some of the traits (including mine). I tend to not focus on technicalities and labels but searching out for information that helps me learn, grow and heal.

Option B-Facing Adversity, Building Resilience, and Finding Joy
By: Sheryl Sandberg, Adam Grant

Quote:
Publisher's Summary

From Facebook's COO and Wharton's top-rated professor, the number-one New York Times best-selling authors of Lean In and Originals: a powerful, inspiring, and practical book about building resilience and moving forward after life's inevitable setbacks.

After the sudden death of her husband, Sheryl Sandberg felt certain that she and her children would never feel pure joy again. "I was in 'the void,'" she writes, "a vast emptiness that fills your heart and lungs and restricts your ability to think or even breathe." Her friend Adam Grant, a psychologist at Wharton, told her there are concrete steps people can take to recover and rebound from life-shattering experiences. We are not born with a fixed amount of resilience. It is a muscle that everyone can build.

Option B combines Sheryl's personal insights with Adam's eye-opening research on finding strength in the face of adversity. Beginning with the gut-wrenching moment when she finds her husband, Dave Goldberg, collapsed on a gym floor, Sheryl opens up her heart - and her journal - to describe the acute grief and isolation she felt in the wake of his death. But Option B goes beyond Sheryl's loss to explore how a broad range of people have overcome hardships including illness, job loss, sexual assault, natural disasters, and the violence of war. Their stories reveal the capacity of the human spirit to persevere...and to rediscover joy.

Resilience comes from deep within us and from support outside us. Even after the most devastating events, it is possible to grow by finding deeper meaning and gaining greater appreciation in our lives. Option B illuminates how to help others in crisis, develop compassion for ourselves, raise strong children, and create resilient families, communities, and workplaces. Many of these lessons can be applied to everyday struggles, allowing us to brave whatever lies ahead.

Two weeks after losing her husband, Sheryl was preparing for a father-child activity. "I want Dave," she cried. Her friend replied, "Option A is not available," and then promised to help her make the most of Option B.

We all live some form of Option B. This book will help us all make the most of it.
This book is how she dealt with the physical loss (death) of her spouse and adjusting to life (Plan B) without him. Regardless if our loss is from death, divorce or our the loss of our hopes and dreams due to addiction - it is still a loss. There was a lot in this book that spoke to me very deeply.

After I finished both of these I thought of this forum and that these might help some here.

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Old 06-13-2019, 12:12 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Ive been doing a lot of research on narcissim and alcoholism. My xabf dumped me a week ago and I'm trying to wrap my mind around what happened.

My thing is... My xabf fits some of the qualities of narcissism but not all. When we were in a relationship he would frequently say he lacked empathy. He wished he had it but he doesn't.

Also when the relationship was over I had a really hard time wrapping my mind around how he couldn't be sad over the relationship being over. I told him he was my best friend. His response: I don't have best friends. I'm own best friend.

On the flip side he was extremly sweet and giving. He always helped when asked.

So I struggle with labeling my xbaf a narcissit. I don't think he fully is one. Does narcissim exsist on a spectrum like austism?
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:22 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Does it matter? He told you how he truly feels. He is his own best friend. Don't try to diagnose him to find out "why." Just accept that he is who he is and move forward to a more healthy relationship. You deserve more.
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Old 06-13-2019, 01:30 PM   #12 (permalink)
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So I struggle with labeling my xbaf a narcissit. I don't think he fully is one. Does narcissim exsist on a spectrum like austism?
Yes, pretty much all disorders exist on a spectrum. We all possess some narcissism, there is a healthy amount and an unhealthy amount. True NPD is at the top of the scale (then jumps the scale and takes on a life of its own).

If anyone says they have no empathy, regardless of the reason, that would be the ideal time to make a run for the door, hop in your car and get that thing headed down the road, without looking in the rear view mirror.

Also, narcissists can be nice, people with no empathy can still be sympathetic or polite. It's about motivation, you might take a cake next door for the new neighbours because you remember how hard moving day is and they probably need a break. A narcissist takes a cake to weasel his/her way in to their good books.

Narcissism is complicated.

When he said he is his own best friend he wasn't being deep and philosophical. What he was saying is that you were not and never would be because he is all about him.
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Old 06-15-2019, 06:08 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Bill Wilson, founder of AA, describes alcoholics as self-centered in the extreme. It may look like narcissism but it isn't. Narcissism is forever; alcoholics in recovery frequently stop being so self-centered.
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:16 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Bill Wilson, founder of AA, describes alcoholics as self-centered in the extreme. It may look like narcissism but it isn't. Narcissism is forever; alcoholics in recovery frequently stop being so self-centered.
Narcissists sometimes use drugs or alcohol as an excuse to be abusive. So if you're in recovery, and have been in recovery for years, and you're still horrible, you were probably a narcissist before you were an alcoholic -- as Doglvr said.

With the people in my family that are narcissistic... one way I have found to manage them is to simply NOT manage them. When they are upset for seemingly no reason, I just ignore them. If I can't ignore them, I avoid them entirely (grey rock them) for a couple days. These people may be low on the narcissist spectrum though. They are usually benign as long as they are getting enough attention (from people other than me... cause I ain't got time for that no more.)
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Old 06-16-2019, 06:34 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Dual Diagnosis

Unfortunately I am an expert on both NPD and Alcoholism with my qualifier. While A’s are VERY selfish, so are NPD’s. But they ARE VERY DIFFERENT. When the two are combined, Boy-Howdy do you have a sh!t show! I hated my NPD for so long (who is also an A). Now, after learning about NPD, I just feel sorry for her. All that “wanting to get a reaction” is called “supply” - they are desperate for that. And the hatred they spew out is just a reflection of their self-hatred. So try not and take it personally and if you can, walk away. And never try to “correct” them. It doesn’t work and they see no wrong in themselves. They lack empathy. It’s futile to try to right the ship. Save yourself and forget about them.
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Old 06-16-2019, 01:09 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Father's day ( and Mother's day) is hard. We go to church and everyone is praising the parent's role. All the parent's are so exceptional role models. If I don't give him just the right supply then I'm the b though I don't think I could ever do anything right. I will get yelled at or the silent treatment.
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Old 06-16-2019, 01:45 PM   #17 (permalink)
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hearthealth…..it is so wearing to be put down all of the time....it's like you can never relax and just be yourself....
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Old 06-16-2019, 02:58 PM   #18 (permalink)
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It doesn't matter...

...what matters is why you chose this man as your boyfriend and best friend. Please consider attending some Alanon meetings-- they are for you not him, and will teach you another way to look at boyfriends and friendship.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leochic06 View Post
Ive been doing a lot of research on narcissim and alcoholism. My xabf dumped me a week ago and I'm trying to wrap my mind around what happened.

My thing is... My xabf fits some of the qualities of narcissism but not all. When we were in a relationship he would frequently say he lacked empathy. He wished he had it but he doesn't.

Also when the relationship was over I had a really hard time wrapping my mind around how he couldn't be sad over the relationship being over. I told him he was my best friend. His response: I don't have best friends. I'm own best friend.

On the flip side he was extremly sweet and giving. He always helped when asked.

So I struggle with labeling my xbaf a narcissit. I don't think he fully is one. Does narcissim exsist on a spectrum like austism?
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Old 06-17-2019, 03:16 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Yeah, I am (was) an A, and I'm 100% sure I'm not a narcissist. Still, you wouldn't have wanted to get between me and a bottle.
Luckily I did most of my drinking alone so didn't impact on family.
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:47 AM   #20 (permalink)
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...what matters is why you chose this man as your boyfriend and best friend.
Bingo! Alanon taught me the other person is irrelevant, the problem is me and my poor choice. In early recovery (alcoholism) I was complaining about an abusive recovering alcoholic boy friend to my sponsor. Her response: "well you picked him"! Ouch! So it took about ten years for me to really get it.

To really "get" active alcoholics consider that their obsession, the great love of their life and higher power is alcohol. Ultimately it's more important than work, family, relationships, health.
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