hopeful4

Lunchbox, I beg of you to ignore what is not helpful and go forward and draw only from the posts that help you.

I have no criticism of you as I understand feeling like your hands are tied because you don't want your children to experience his vile behavior without you. You never said, what are their ages and what did the attorney advise?

Sending you big hugs!

FireSprite

And ^^THIS is exactly what infuriates me as an adult child of addiction who is in her 40's and still unraveling the mess I was born into.

I had no choice. I developed tools to survive, not thrive. I learned to exist without ever living. Now I'm trying like hell to figure out my sense of Self, do better for my daughter & break all the horrible, ongoing dysfunction that no one in my FOO wants to even acknowledge as Real.

My addict father died more than 2 decades ago & my biggest struggle remains - breaking the self-righteous, victim-mindset of the codependent parent who is STILL perpetuating those horrifying behaviors because they have become such a large part of her Identity.

So here's what that looks like, all these years later..... my mother & I have ZERO relationship because she only accepts me if I interact with her codependently. I cannot go back to those old, broken ways & stay sane. Beyond that, I REFUSE to model it for my daughter, just so SHE can un-learn it herself in about 30 yrs.

All of you parents who are not children of addiction can talk all day long about what you THINK - you have NO idea what it's like to LIVE this or how insidious the damage is throughout every area of our lives & relationships..... what you refer to as "guilt-tripping bile", is my LIFE EXPERIENCE.

Yes, this is hard to hear & accept. It doesn't make it less true. We can take a poll among ACOA - I'm confident the results will agree. I'm watching my very good friend go through this with her 22-yr old.... she didn't want to believe he was in any way affected by his father's addiction way back when & now she cries constantly about how limited her options are to help him & how resistant he is to help from her anyway. He doesn't trust her because why should he?.... she didn't protect him emotionally "then", what is different "now"?

For the record, since you may not know his history - Cy's post was accurate AND he's speaking from the experience of raising a daughter exactly like you talk about - and all of the regrets he has now that she's grown up in that dysfunction and she's an adult he can't "help" any longer. He's not JUST pointing a finger, he's referring to himself as well.

Needabreak

Thank you for this, Firesprite.

It is a thin line that runs between supporting a codependent person who lives with an alcoholic, and coddling / enabling codependency. The former hopefully helps a person along in their recovery. But I don't think the latter helps anyone.

tomsteve

sheewee- one of the only things i can think reading through this thread is:
why are you on this site, Lunchbox? every suggestion has been met with an excuse why it cant be done and a whole lot of playing the victim. ive been there myself. it doesnt show on this site but i did that for a shitton of years as a practicing alcoholic. nope- problem was NEVER me- it was ALWAYS him,her,them,they. THEY all had to change for ME to be happy. i was ALWAYS the victim and it kept me drunk.
by the grace of God i received the gift of desperation- a point where the pain of getting drunk exceeded the pain of reality- and i WANTED help. that didnt mean telling people why i couldnt do what they said i should(didnt have many suggestions- was straight up told how it was- do this or die)- it meant i would DO what they suggested because i didnt want to be what i was any more.
that started 14 years ago today.
a few years later i faced my codependency. by the grace of God the person from this site that helped me tremendously wasnt soft and gentle with her crowbar- told me striaght up how it was- i was the problem and i couldnt do or say a dam thing to make the alkie in my life change a dam thing. helped me realize all the INSANE crap i was doing to get the alkie to "see the light" was destroying me while it wasnt bothering her at all.
then she TOLD me the solutions i would have to ACT on. straight up told me "do this or stay in the misery."no sugar coating that either. i did what she said. i learned a shitton more about myself and am dam greatful for my crowbar wielding friend that cared enough about me to tell me like it was.
at both times- when i got sober and when i faced my codependency- people shouldnt have wasted their time if i just wanted to bitch,moan, and complain- and im an award winning bitcher,moaner, and complainer!
and they didnt waste their time when thats all i wanted to do. however, when i was ready for help, they were willing to help.

im dam greatful i stopped playing the victim. its been an awesome journey since- one with no self induced drama and chaos and i dont allow others to bring drama and chaos into my life because i lover myself that much today.

SparkleKitty

LB, it's my understanding that the only thing keeping you from leaving is that he will sometimes have the kids to himself and you will not be there to protect them.

The other side of that is, most of the time you will have the kids to YOURSELF and there won't be anything they (or YOU!!) need to be protected from. They can have the opportunity to live in a peaceful environment without alcoholic aggression or these frequent arguments the two of you have, and that just might make the difference for them to develop healthy coping skills and a healthy understanding of what relationships and boundaries should be. They can become strong enough to withstand the time they have to spend with him without you.

The sad truth is, as much as you believe you are protecting them now, they are still being constantly exposed to dysfunction. It is their normal. I know, because it was also my normal growing up, and I was unable to even recognize that it was unhealthy until I was well into my thirties and a raging codependent with zero sense of self or ability to validate my own feelings.

You all deserve the option for peace and serenity. Your kids, AND you. I know that feeling like if ONLY he would "get it" everything would be fine...but you could wait decades for that to happen and still be disappointed. Hope is not a bad thing, but it's definitely not a plan, either.

Amaranth

Hi Lunchbox, how are you doing?

When things came to a head with my husband and his drinking a woman I know said to me "have you ever considered that you might be the one with the problem? Why don't you go to Al-Anon?"

I thought "HOW DARE SHE SUGGEST THAT I AM THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM!!! Isn't it so obvious to everyone that HE is the one with the problem and it is HIM that needs to change"

I didn't speak to that woman for about 10 years after that. I did however go to Al-Anon not too much later. Why? Because I couldn't think of anything else to do and I was DESPERATE.

Al-Anon helped me to stay in my marriage and keep the family together for the next 12 years. I did finally leave last year and I wouldn't have had it any other way.

Yes, I wanted him to change. I still do. I want him to stop drinking and to be the amazing person I know he can be. But no amount of wanting and wishing will change him.

It's up to you if you stay or leave. If you stay Al-Anon can teach you so many ways to make your life easier. You will also find many others there who chose to stay too and will understand why you stay.

There is so much love and support in Al-Anon. It's up to you if you take it or leave it.

OpheliaKatz

If he wants unconditional love, he can get a dog, who will love him AS LONG as he feeds it and walks it and cleans it (so I guess those are conditions too). A marriage is a union WITH conditions: love, honor, protect/obey or instead of protect/obey, respect (which is more modern and I don't know anyone who chooses "protect and obey" anymore). Any type of legal spousal relationship is a relationship that legally and emotionally has conditions. This man is not your minor child, where you are forced to care for him, tolerate his moods, and kiss his cuts and bruises until he is old enough to make his own lunch.

He wants to drink. He doesn't care what you think. He only asked you about his drinking so that he can blame you for anything that happens when he messes up -- because he doesn't want it to be ALL on him.

So... what do you do? You can't control him. Let him monkey his own circus. I think you should really get away from this situation... even if for six months. Your kids are really upset with the situation and are not happy with merely detaching. It sounds like they want out.

Lunchbox1

hopeful4

If they are not little kids, then they don't really need your protection. They may get hysterical, but eventually they would understand. Have you been very honest with them about the situation and how bad things are for YOU? That this locks you into a life of misery??

You do have a right to move forward in a healthy way. Sending many hugs.

SparkleKitty

I would have gotten hysterical as a kid, too, if a big change like that had been discussed, even though the day-to-day of our lives was tense, miserable and full of fear and walking on eggshells. It was simply part of the dysfunction to feel safe in the familiarity of the status quo.

Kids are more resilient than we often give them credit for.

SmallButMighty

Of course they get upset at the idea of things as they know it changing. That's scary and painful. It hurts your mama heart thinking you would be responsible for causing them to hurt. I've been there. There is different ways of being hurt.

My own kids were 16 and 20 when they found out their Dad and I had broken up. They were devastated. We all were. But the kids didn't get a say in it. The marriage was toxic and we sure as h*ll were not setting a good example of what a healthy relationship should look like to our young adult children. Yes it sucked to split, yes hearts were broken for a while, and yes we all survived it.

My parents had set bad examples. My AXH's parents had set bad examples. All their parents had set bad examples. They all stayed unhappily married in alkie/codie marriages until death did they part. It was a cycle that was going to continue on through the next generation if I didn't do something to change it. It was the hardest most painful damn thing I've ever done. ..but I don't regret making healthy changes for my life and showing my kids that it's OK to leave a relationship that is making you sick.

I'd never tell someone they must leave their spouse. But I will tell you, once I left my alcoholic husband it opened up a whole lot of good and healthy things that I didn't have room for when my life was filled with our dysfunctioning marriage. I now live a life that my adult children can see as healthy, by comparison their father is still a drunk, blaming everybody and everything else for his hardships in life.

I remember how it felt to be in your shoes. It was all consuming suckage. (In my case I was pretty batcrap crazy.) I'm sorry you are going through this.

Nothing changes if nothing changes.

trailmix

I don't know how to put this any other way so I'll just say it, just know it's said kindly - It doesn't matter what they think or if they get hysterical.

When my older Sister was a young teen we moved to Asia. She was not happy. She cried and cried and when her friends were with her at the airport she cried some more - terrible tragedy! Turns out that move was amazing. She will agree it was the best of times, the experience, the friendships - teens don't know this stuff!

When I got divorced I consulted no-one, not my Mom or my Sister (who is also my best friend), not my child - no one. I made that decision for myself.

A marriage is a union between two people and that is as it should be, it is not a union of all and sundry with a take on it. No one and I mean no one should get a part in this decision you should make for yourself and your children's wellbeing.

You are the adult here and I'm sure over the years your self-worth and self-esteem have taken an absolute beating. Well, time to perhaps not let anyone beat you up anymore. You are important Lunchbox, to the world, to us, to your children and to your other family and friends.

Right now your problems seem insurmountable. Finances, Health Insurance etc. All these things have solutions, they may not be perfect solutions but they may be workable.

You are not a hostage.

PuzzledHeart

Lunchbox, one time when I was a little girl, my abuser got so infuriated at me that she left the house and threatened never to come back. She was gone for what seemed to be an eternity. I was so little back then I didn't know what to do, so I called random numbers on the phone. People would answer, but I was so hysterical that I couldn't talk. Even though this woman beat me up for not eating all of my sandwich, and had left the house because I wasn't awake enough for her satisfaction, I was still devastated by the fact that she had left me. I was afraid because I didn't know any better.

dawnrising

Lunchbox - it does not matter the age of your children, you are modeling behavior for them regardless. When they eventually move out of your home an into adulthood do you want them to find a relationship like the one you are in? This is the pattern you are establishing for your children. If its not good enough for them, its NOT good enough for you. We all repeat patterns in our lives from our childhood, it may look vastly different but the pattern remains the same. What you CHOOSE to model for your children will absolutely affect every future relationship they have. You are not a victim you have choices in every single situation. You may feel that there are no good choices, but there are choices none the less. You are the parent and from what I can tell the only responsible parent. Be the parent, you do not need permission to do what's right for your children. If your children were tied to a train track you would not waffle on doing everything to get them to safety even if they didn't want to go, you would do it because you know what's best. Your AH is driving the train and your kids are tied on the track, your behavior is shaping them as much as your AH's behavior. Nothing but love and hugs for you, but no one here is going to let you off the hook because after all that's all anyone has control over is ourselves, our thoughts, our actions, and our inaction.

OpheliaKatz

No one on this site can force you to leave him. No one can force you to stay. Same goes for your kids: it's not their marriage, it's yours.

1. Are you happy with the status quo in your marriage?
2. Is your marriage (as it currently is) good for your kids?

If you answer no to both, you can decide to change something (if you want to)... but it won't be him cause he doesn't want to change.