Honesty or Manipulation?? Help
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 34
Honesty or Manipulation?? Help
Hi everyone, I need some help. I have been separated from
my AH for just over a month. We have four young children and I have been working as hard as I can to allow him access to the children but always having boundaries and safety measures in place (breathalyzer tests and random drug/alcohol screening by a professional). He has been attending AA almost daily and working the big book with two sponsors approximately 2-3 hours per week. We have had a difficult day filled with tensions and arguements. Here is a small snippet of text messages exchanged and I would love your advice as to whether he is manipulating me with guilt or actually being honest.
His - “My largest concerns are for the kids, their future, their education,.......,our future plans. My thoughts on what growing old with you would have been.....having big family dinners with our kids and grandchildren.......every thing that I have worked the past 15years for ALL GONE if YOU decide. I don’t think it can be more threatening than that. To know that one person and only one person has that much power and control over me is the most vulnerable I have ever been. I’m completely exposed”
My reply - “Do you not think I wanted the same thing? That is what I signed up for when I married you. Now I am completely vulnerable and threatened by the disease of alcoholism. It has taken over my life, my dreams, etc. It is made me sick, it has taken away my joy, my dreams and plans,
I have become invisible. The chaos has consumed me. Not to mention the affect it is having on our children”
His reply - “I didn’t want to be an alcoholic I didn’t do it on purpose, I definitely didn’t do it to hurt you or our Family. The truth is I didn’t have a choice. I decided to put everything before me again and relapses. There is a solution if I chose to accept it. You do have a choice on what the future holds as far as family is concerned I do not. I have a choice today to let my disease take over or not to. I have that choice today because I am doing what I have to. The deck is stacked against me to succeed if I continue down the road of uncertainty but that’s just something I have to deal with.”
Thank you everyone for listening. I am so so confused. I am attending Alanon again tonight for my second meeting and I have started reading “Codependant No More” so I hope I can find some calm. I feel out of control, stressed and crazy trying to deal with the separation, all four kids and their schedules as well as being lonely and afraid.
my AH for just over a month. We have four young children and I have been working as hard as I can to allow him access to the children but always having boundaries and safety measures in place (breathalyzer tests and random drug/alcohol screening by a professional). He has been attending AA almost daily and working the big book with two sponsors approximately 2-3 hours per week. We have had a difficult day filled with tensions and arguements. Here is a small snippet of text messages exchanged and I would love your advice as to whether he is manipulating me with guilt or actually being honest.
His - “My largest concerns are for the kids, their future, their education,.......,our future plans. My thoughts on what growing old with you would have been.....having big family dinners with our kids and grandchildren.......every thing that I have worked the past 15years for ALL GONE if YOU decide. I don’t think it can be more threatening than that. To know that one person and only one person has that much power and control over me is the most vulnerable I have ever been. I’m completely exposed”
My reply - “Do you not think I wanted the same thing? That is what I signed up for when I married you. Now I am completely vulnerable and threatened by the disease of alcoholism. It has taken over my life, my dreams, etc. It is made me sick, it has taken away my joy, my dreams and plans,
I have become invisible. The chaos has consumed me. Not to mention the affect it is having on our children”
His reply - “I didn’t want to be an alcoholic I didn’t do it on purpose, I definitely didn’t do it to hurt you or our Family. The truth is I didn’t have a choice. I decided to put everything before me again and relapses. There is a solution if I chose to accept it. You do have a choice on what the future holds as far as family is concerned I do not. I have a choice today to let my disease take over or not to. I have that choice today because I am doing what I have to. The deck is stacked against me to succeed if I continue down the road of uncertainty but that’s just something I have to deal with.”
Thank you everyone for listening. I am so so confused. I am attending Alanon again tonight for my second meeting and I have started reading “Codependant No More” so I hope I can find some calm. I feel out of control, stressed and crazy trying to deal with the separation, all four kids and their schedules as well as being lonely and afraid.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 293
It is a little unnerving to read your AH responses. It sounds to me that he is still not taking full responsibility for his actions and trying to make you out as the one to blame.
It is great that your are going to Alanon meetings. They will definitely help you gain perspective in this matter and give you the tools to deal with him without loosing yourself.
It is great that your are going to Alanon meetings. They will definitely help you gain perspective in this matter and give you the tools to deal with him without loosing yourself.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,614
Hi SorNS - well, that's a lot for you to be dealing with, I'm really sorry this is such a hard time. Keep in mind it is temporary and things will get better.
First, what you said about yourself. I understand the lonely (hopefully you can get the numbers of some people in your Al-Anon group and keep in closer touch with those you have more in common with or enjoy talking to). You also have SR!
What do you fear? That's probably a good place to start.
As for him and his texts and your question, Honesty or Manipulation - I think it's probably both.
It is HIS truth, it's what he's thinking. You hold all the cards, you are to blame for his drinking and you are to blame for where he is right now (which according to him is right on the cusp of drinking because of the uncertainty).
The question is, what is your truth?
You are not responsible for him. Please keep repeating this to yourself.
I am going to guess that you have given him many chances to change his behaviour - he chose not to. Now that you have made a boundary and are sticking to it, ie: he actually has consequences, he is somehow hard done by.
It's not that I don't have compassion for him, I'm sure he is in a bad spot himself, but I have to admit when I read the exchange, it kind of made me angry.
Any of this sound familiar?
I'd be OK if it weren't for you!
The addict blames his addictive behavior on his significant other, usually his spouse. He feels resentful and self-pitying about the way he considers himself to be treated and uses this to justify his addiction. Since one of the commonest causes of resentment and self-pity in addicts is criticism by others of their addictive behavior, and since the characteristic response of the addict to such criticism is to escalate addictive behavior, this process tends to be self-perpetuating. The addict is often quite cruel in highlighting, exaggerating and exploiting any and every defect or flaw the significant other may have, or even in fabricating them out of his own mind in order to justify and rationalize his own behavior.
Look at all I have done for you! or This is the thanks I get!
Another "guilt trip" designed to disarm or deflect criticism of addictive behavior. References to the hard work, long hours, job stress and material status of the family are common attempts to win sympathy and understanding for behavior that has become harmful to the addict and others.
Excuses Alcoholics Make
First, what you said about yourself. I understand the lonely (hopefully you can get the numbers of some people in your Al-Anon group and keep in closer touch with those you have more in common with or enjoy talking to). You also have SR!
What do you fear? That's probably a good place to start.
As for him and his texts and your question, Honesty or Manipulation - I think it's probably both.
It is HIS truth, it's what he's thinking. You hold all the cards, you are to blame for his drinking and you are to blame for where he is right now (which according to him is right on the cusp of drinking because of the uncertainty).
The question is, what is your truth?
You are not responsible for him. Please keep repeating this to yourself.
I am going to guess that you have given him many chances to change his behaviour - he chose not to. Now that you have made a boundary and are sticking to it, ie: he actually has consequences, he is somehow hard done by.
It's not that I don't have compassion for him, I'm sure he is in a bad spot himself, but I have to admit when I read the exchange, it kind of made me angry.
Any of this sound familiar?
I'd be OK if it weren't for you!
The addict blames his addictive behavior on his significant other, usually his spouse. He feels resentful and self-pitying about the way he considers himself to be treated and uses this to justify his addiction. Since one of the commonest causes of resentment and self-pity in addicts is criticism by others of their addictive behavior, and since the characteristic response of the addict to such criticism is to escalate addictive behavior, this process tends to be self-perpetuating. The addict is often quite cruel in highlighting, exaggerating and exploiting any and every defect or flaw the significant other may have, or even in fabricating them out of his own mind in order to justify and rationalize his own behavior.
Look at all I have done for you! or This is the thanks I get!
Another "guilt trip" designed to disarm or deflect criticism of addictive behavior. References to the hard work, long hours, job stress and material status of the family are common attempts to win sympathy and understanding for behavior that has become harmful to the addict and others.
Excuses Alcoholics Make
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
he completely abdicated ANY responsibility for what HIS drinking has done to you and the children. what a load of hooey.
every thing that I have worked the past 15years for ALL GONE if YOU decide
puh-leeze. what about the drinking? the drunkeness? the self absorbed numbing out? not being present? spending family funds? on and on and on.........not one word about that.
The truth is I didn’t have a choice.
not exactly true. all addicts have choices along the way to stop - turn, seek help and get clean and sober. we might not be responsible for the disease, but we are responsible for the recovery from that disease.
no humility. no acknowledgement of your feelings, your needs.
every thing that I have worked the past 15years for ALL GONE if YOU decide
puh-leeze. what about the drinking? the drunkeness? the self absorbed numbing out? not being present? spending family funds? on and on and on.........not one word about that.
The truth is I didn’t have a choice.
not exactly true. all addicts have choices along the way to stop - turn, seek help and get clean and sober. we might not be responsible for the disease, but we are responsible for the recovery from that disease.
no humility. no acknowledgement of your feelings, your needs.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 430
I agree with the comments above, and they certainly resonate with my experiences.
Also, it seems to me that your AH is making big statements about future expectations. Isn't there something to be said for going one step, one day at a time? Can he try to focus on staying sober and being the best dad he can today rather than prognosticating about what may or may not happen at some future date? I know that's on him, to change his mindset, not you. But maybe you could suggest something to that effect--honey, please, right now, let's work on today.
Also, it seems to me that your AH is making big statements about future expectations. Isn't there something to be said for going one step, one day at a time? Can he try to focus on staying sober and being the best dad he can today rather than prognosticating about what may or may not happen at some future date? I know that's on him, to change his mindset, not you. But maybe you could suggest something to that effect--honey, please, right now, let's work on today.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,413
How many choices did he make to continue to drink?
Do what is best for the children. They've already been hurt by his addiction.
You are their rock and protection.
Honestly, his words don't sound like recovery to me--what does your heart tell you?
Do what is best for the children. They've already been hurt by his addiction.
You are their rock and protection.
Honestly, his words don't sound like recovery to me--what does your heart tell you?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 66
it's good that you have reached a place of not just falling into feelings about what he says. for me, alcoholism made me feel like I had to answer him right away, even in texts, and I dont have to do that. I can tell the truth, and I dont have to overly worry about his feelings, as long as I don't say it mean which I usually dont. its ok that he feels that way but you do not have to agree and you do not have to change your arrangements based upon any of it.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 34
Thank you everyone for your replies and help. Some days he seems calm and grateful for the time he gets to spend with the kids and the next day he is trying to force me to give him a date and a timeline to when he can come home. I have no idea if I want him to come home. He has left our home before (5 months) and it led to 2.5 years of sobriety but here we are again!! Hence my screen name SorNS - Shocked or Not Surprised. 7 relapses (only one day each) in 1.5 years. He has caused so much pain, mistrust and damage. The children are 12, 11, 9 and 7. They are so hurt and confused.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,614
Yes, it's early days yet though.
The children are probably picking up on your confusion and hurt too (that's not to blame you at all - that's normal).
Just like they picked up on all the uncertainty and tension in the house having an alcoholic present.
At least these are "real" emotions about a real situation and not of someone else's making (from a bottle).
Perhaps this is a time to fake your strength and resolve a bit in front of them. If you are comfortable and acting "normal" they will feel secure. Of course they miss their Dad but they don't realize the damage it was doing to them, how could they.
You have made a decision and there is no use sitting on the fence. Go with it for now, for as long as that takes. He's not in recovery yet, he just has a dry period. He is basically threatening you with this line:
Do as I want or you will have the consequences (ie: he will start drinking again) and you get the blame for it.
I don't know, as someone else mentioned, I don't see any humbleness in his comments, I don't see remorse or any concern for you or your children, it's all about him and how hard done by he is.
The children are probably picking up on your confusion and hurt too (that's not to blame you at all - that's normal).
Just like they picked up on all the uncertainty and tension in the house having an alcoholic present.
At least these are "real" emotions about a real situation and not of someone else's making (from a bottle).
Perhaps this is a time to fake your strength and resolve a bit in front of them. If you are comfortable and acting "normal" they will feel secure. Of course they miss their Dad but they don't realize the damage it was doing to them, how could they.
You have made a decision and there is no use sitting on the fence. Go with it for now, for as long as that takes. He's not in recovery yet, he just has a dry period. He is basically threatening you with this line:
The deck is stacked against me to succeed if I continue down the road of uncertainty but that’s just something I have to deal with.
I don't know, as someone else mentioned, I don't see any humbleness in his comments, I don't see remorse or any concern for you or your children, it's all about him and how hard done by he is.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,618
It sounds like he thinks drinking is something that happened to him - he didn't ask to be an alcoholic, he didn't do anything on purpose, he is completely vulnerable, etc - not something that he does. All the consequences of his drinking - potential divorce, kids unhappy and alienated - aren't his fault because he didn't want to be an addict, he didn't have a choice and so on. So if they aren't his doing, they must be someone else's doing. And that someone else is ... you, his wife! You can be held responsible for the consequences that are following inevitably from his drinking, and he can avoid real ownership of the problem.
It sounds like a twisted/screwed-up interpretation of the first step - powerless over alcohol, life unmanageable. In my understanding, that step doesn't mean you get to blame other people for the misery of your drinking, it means be humble, acknowledge that you're in way over your head and you need help (ideally from someone who is not your wife). Maybe his sponsors can help him clarify?
It sounds like a twisted/screwed-up interpretation of the first step - powerless over alcohol, life unmanageable. In my understanding, that step doesn't mean you get to blame other people for the misery of your drinking, it means be humble, acknowledge that you're in way over your head and you need help (ideally from someone who is not your wife). Maybe his sponsors can help him clarify?
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
SorNS…...I agree with the postings that you have already received.
Seems like he is coming up against the consequences of his actions....and he doesn't like it ...and he is reacting with anger....and, is not yet able or ready to accept his responsibility...
Resist the guilt-trip. Do not got on board the guilt train......
Seems like he is coming up against the consequences of his actions....and he doesn't like it ...and he is reacting with anger....and, is not yet able or ready to accept his responsibility...
Resist the guilt-trip. Do not got on board the guilt train......
Sober since 10th April 2012
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6,047
The first one sounds like pure manipulation - you chose this, not him, and you have power over him. Actually he is the only one who has power over himself.
He could go into deep introspective detail and just confuse the issue. You could cut right through this BS by suggesting sobriety, no relapses, is the key to his dreams whether it's with or without you.
He could go into deep introspective detail and just confuse the issue. You could cut right through this BS by suggesting sobriety, no relapses, is the key to his dreams whether it's with or without you.
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Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 356
His truth with a lot of manipulation. It is great that he is doing AA and works with a sponsor 2-3 hours a week but don’t expect any changes in his behavior anytime soon especially if he has been an alcoholic for a long time, the fact he is taking very little ownership of his behaviors is all telling.
My XRAH had quit several times during our marriage, always on his own/white knuckling it. Never lasted. Even when he quit for a year things weren’t great.
He got sent to rehab for 90 days due to his job. So that means lots of meetings and counseling every single day. Even with that it took him a good 6-7 weeks before he finally started seeing his manipulative ways.hisnletter to me were manipulative and so were a lot of his texts or his communication with my friends (because he knew it would get ack to me) . I did family week around week 6 and it was very stressful. I honestly think that if he had not done inpatient I would have run for the hills a long time ago and it would’ve taken him years probably to make the progress he had mad in about a year.. Even after 90 days I wasn’t ready for him to come home. I actually felt that in a way rehab made things lot worse on us (and it was and already as I had detached big time) . And he was actually ready to quit this time but not happy about having to go to rehab. . Recovery is very tough on both parties but I think especially the non alcoholic person, I had so much guilt when he quit and worked hard on changing etc. Because I just had too much resentment after everything HE had put me through with his disease, and it is true that it is a disease, but is also a choice. A choice to keep drinking or a choice to start drinking again after they have stopped. Just like people with diabetes start taking care of themselves (usually anyway if they care about themselves) once they are diagnosed an alcoholic can chose to seek help for his disease, so i agree he did not chose to be an alcoholic but he chose to not seek help and he cannot blame anyone but himself what his disease did to you and the family.
I never realized (until he went to rehab) that quitting drinking is only a very small part of recovery. Because quitting drinking is easy. But dealing with the underlying issues that they are self medicating (my ex was diagnosed with social anxiety, so nothing major but enough to need to self medicate) as well as the need to learn healthy coping skills is the hard part, because without addressing those the chance that an A will stay clean is not high. And when recovery is taken seriously (for both parties) it does change people.
It took me a long time to not feel guilty about wanting out of the marriage (we tried for a good 1.5 years) be use after all he got clean and did what I asked him to. But too much damage was done. I really like the analogy of the raging tornado. While the A is in active addiction, it is like a tornado is raging and causing damage all around it, taking everything in its path. Then when the A gets sober the tornado stops it is like he (or she) wakes up and wonders where all the damage came from. The people affected by the A lived though it and saw it as it was happening. The A doesn’t understand where all the damage came from. And it takes them a long time to really understand what their disease did to those around him. And of course it is easy to lay the guilt on you, it takes the responsibility away from him. It is easier to blame you than to admit that he was the reason you are where you are now. Of course you had dreams to grow old together. But he has not progressed enough to understand that yet. I don’t know what age your H started drinking but mine started at age 13. And they say that an addition basically stops maturing mentally once they start drinking. So here I had a very successful professional husband but really mentally he was acting like a teenager still. So when they quit they have a lot of learning to do.
If you can find Pleasure Unwoven somewhere (like the library or Amazon, I don’t think it is on YouTube in its entirety ) I very highly recommend watching that. And if your kids are teenagers it would probably be good for them as well. It explains alcoholism very well and discusses the disease vs choice.
How old are your kids? If you have younger ones I highly recommend the Betty Ford children’s program if you are in CO, TX or CA. It is for kids 7-12 and it is awesome. It helps them understand that it is not their fault that their parent was a drinker. It was not their behaviors or anything else they did. They also have a book series called Beamer that is really good at explaining addiction and talking about their own feelings. I am really glad my kid was able to go to that. It also helped to know that she was not the only kid in the world with an alcoholic parent and that some of them had a parent that was in jail because they got into an accident. Some of the stories were really sad.
Anyway, wishing you lots of luck and courage. You can’t help your AH with his recovery. You need to work on your own recovery and take care of you and your kiddos. I also recommend individual therapy if at all possible. All the focus tend to be on the alcoholic but us spouses also need a lot of help working through all of this.
I also wanted to add that you should not shield your kids from what is going on, the unknown will probably create a lot more anxiety and fears than if you give it a name and answer their questions and be honest with them at an age appropriate level. Even if they are young. They know stuff is going on.
My XRAH had quit several times during our marriage, always on his own/white knuckling it. Never lasted. Even when he quit for a year things weren’t great.
He got sent to rehab for 90 days due to his job. So that means lots of meetings and counseling every single day. Even with that it took him a good 6-7 weeks before he finally started seeing his manipulative ways.hisnletter to me were manipulative and so were a lot of his texts or his communication with my friends (because he knew it would get ack to me) . I did family week around week 6 and it was very stressful. I honestly think that if he had not done inpatient I would have run for the hills a long time ago and it would’ve taken him years probably to make the progress he had mad in about a year.. Even after 90 days I wasn’t ready for him to come home. I actually felt that in a way rehab made things lot worse on us (and it was and already as I had detached big time) . And he was actually ready to quit this time but not happy about having to go to rehab. . Recovery is very tough on both parties but I think especially the non alcoholic person, I had so much guilt when he quit and worked hard on changing etc. Because I just had too much resentment after everything HE had put me through with his disease, and it is true that it is a disease, but is also a choice. A choice to keep drinking or a choice to start drinking again after they have stopped. Just like people with diabetes start taking care of themselves (usually anyway if they care about themselves) once they are diagnosed an alcoholic can chose to seek help for his disease, so i agree he did not chose to be an alcoholic but he chose to not seek help and he cannot blame anyone but himself what his disease did to you and the family.
I never realized (until he went to rehab) that quitting drinking is only a very small part of recovery. Because quitting drinking is easy. But dealing with the underlying issues that they are self medicating (my ex was diagnosed with social anxiety, so nothing major but enough to need to self medicate) as well as the need to learn healthy coping skills is the hard part, because without addressing those the chance that an A will stay clean is not high. And when recovery is taken seriously (for both parties) it does change people.
It took me a long time to not feel guilty about wanting out of the marriage (we tried for a good 1.5 years) be use after all he got clean and did what I asked him to. But too much damage was done. I really like the analogy of the raging tornado. While the A is in active addiction, it is like a tornado is raging and causing damage all around it, taking everything in its path. Then when the A gets sober the tornado stops it is like he (or she) wakes up and wonders where all the damage came from. The people affected by the A lived though it and saw it as it was happening. The A doesn’t understand where all the damage came from. And it takes them a long time to really understand what their disease did to those around him. And of course it is easy to lay the guilt on you, it takes the responsibility away from him. It is easier to blame you than to admit that he was the reason you are where you are now. Of course you had dreams to grow old together. But he has not progressed enough to understand that yet. I don’t know what age your H started drinking but mine started at age 13. And they say that an addition basically stops maturing mentally once they start drinking. So here I had a very successful professional husband but really mentally he was acting like a teenager still. So when they quit they have a lot of learning to do.
If you can find Pleasure Unwoven somewhere (like the library or Amazon, I don’t think it is on YouTube in its entirety ) I very highly recommend watching that. And if your kids are teenagers it would probably be good for them as well. It explains alcoholism very well and discusses the disease vs choice.
How old are your kids? If you have younger ones I highly recommend the Betty Ford children’s program if you are in CO, TX or CA. It is for kids 7-12 and it is awesome. It helps them understand that it is not their fault that their parent was a drinker. It was not their behaviors or anything else they did. They also have a book series called Beamer that is really good at explaining addiction and talking about their own feelings. I am really glad my kid was able to go to that. It also helped to know that she was not the only kid in the world with an alcoholic parent and that some of them had a parent that was in jail because they got into an accident. Some of the stories were really sad.
Anyway, wishing you lots of luck and courage. You can’t help your AH with his recovery. You need to work on your own recovery and take care of you and your kiddos. I also recommend individual therapy if at all possible. All the focus tend to be on the alcoholic but us spouses also need a lot of help working through all of this.
I also wanted to add that you should not shield your kids from what is going on, the unknown will probably create a lot more anxiety and fears than if you give it a name and answer their questions and be honest with them at an age appropriate level. Even if they are young. They know stuff is going on.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 356
Btw, they also say not to make any life changing decisions the first year after he gets sober (as long as you are safe of course) and I do agree with that even though we did end up divorcing. We both needed that time to work through all the stuff that had happened due to his alcohol. And I needed that time to come to terms with the fact that I probably did not want to stay in the marriage despite his sobriety. Right now emotions are running high with lots of resentment on both sides. Eventually you probably should do marriage counseling together to at least be able to talk about stuff with a mediator there. Even if you think you don’t want to stay married. It will help clear some stuff up for both of you and hopefully lessen some of the resentment regardless of what happened. Because even if you split you still have to deal with each other since you have kids.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 229
Originally Posted by SorNS 
Hi everyone, I need some help. I have been separated from
my AH for just over a month. We have four young children and I have been working as hard as I can to allow him access to the children but always having boundaries and safety measures in place (breathalyzer tests and random drug/alcohol screening by a professional). He has been attending AA almost daily and working the big book with two sponsors approximately 2-3 hours per week. We have had a difficult day filled with tensions and arguements. Here is a small snippet of text messages exchanged and I would love your advice as to whether he is manipulating me with guilt or actually being honest.
His - “My largest concerns are for the kids, their future, their education,.......,our future plans. My thoughts on what growing old with you would have been.....having big family dinners with our kids and grandchildren.......every thing that I have worked the past 15years for ALL GONE if YOU decide. I don’t think it can be more threatening than that. To know that one person and only one person has that much power and control over me is the most vulnerable I have ever been. I’m completely exposed”
My reply - “Do you not think I wanted the same thing? That is what I signed up for when I married you. Now I am completely vulnerable and threatened by the disease of alcoholism. It has taken over my life, my dreams, etc. It is made me sick, it has taken away my joy, my dreams and plans,
I have become invisible. The chaos has consumed me. Not to mention the affect it is having on our children”
His reply - “I didn’t want to be an alcoholic I didn’t do it on purpose, I definitely didn’t do it to hurt you or our Family. The truth is I didn’t have a choice. I decided to put everything before me again and relapses. There is a solution if I chose to accept it. You do have a choice on what the future holds as far as family is concerned I do not. I have a choice today to let my disease take over or not to. I have that choice today because I am doing what I have to. The deck is stacked against me to succeed if I continue down the road of uncertainty but that’s just something I have to deal with.”
Thank you everyone for listening. I am so so confused. I am attending Alanon again tonight for my second meeting and I have started reading “Codependant No More” so I hope I can find some calm. I feel out of control, stressed and crazy trying to deal with the separation, all four kids and their schedules as well as being lonely and afraid.
my AH for just over a month. We have four young children and I have been working as hard as I can to allow him access to the children but always having boundaries and safety measures in place (breathalyzer tests and random drug/alcohol screening by a professional). He has been attending AA almost daily and working the big book with two sponsors approximately 2-3 hours per week. We have had a difficult day filled with tensions and arguements. Here is a small snippet of text messages exchanged and I would love your advice as to whether he is manipulating me with guilt or actually being honest.
His - “My largest concerns are for the kids, their future, their education,.......,our future plans. My thoughts on what growing old with you would have been.....having big family dinners with our kids and grandchildren.......every thing that I have worked the past 15years for ALL GONE if YOU decide. I don’t think it can be more threatening than that. To know that one person and only one person has that much power and control over me is the most vulnerable I have ever been. I’m completely exposed”
My reply - “Do you not think I wanted the same thing? That is what I signed up for when I married you. Now I am completely vulnerable and threatened by the disease of alcoholism. It has taken over my life, my dreams, etc. It is made me sick, it has taken away my joy, my dreams and plans,
I have become invisible. The chaos has consumed me. Not to mention the affect it is having on our children”
His reply - “I didn’t want to be an alcoholic I didn’t do it on purpose, I definitely didn’t do it to hurt you or our Family. The truth is I didn’t have a choice. I decided to put everything before me again and relapses. There is a solution if I chose to accept it. You do have a choice on what the future holds as far as family is concerned I do not. I have a choice today to let my disease take over or not to. I have that choice today because I am doing what I have to. The deck is stacked against me to succeed if I continue down the road of uncertainty but that’s just something I have to deal with.”
Thank you everyone for listening. I am so so confused. I am attending Alanon again tonight for my second meeting and I have started reading “Codependant No More” so I hope I can find some calm. I feel out of control, stressed and crazy trying to deal with the separation, all four kids and their schedules as well as being lonely and afraid.
He is manipulating you, this is typical A speak. He has not control over his circumstances, it will be all your fault as the future of the family depends on your decision, blah, blah blah. Go over to the quack thread, this is classic example of quacking.
A has so melted his brain and his reasoning, there is no logic. YOU are in this position having to make tough choices to protect yourself and the kids because of HIM and his drinking.
He does have a choice, go to AA and stick with it.
You are doing what is best based on the hand your dealt, please do not let him tell you otherwise.
HE must choose to work his programme and not blame you. HE does have a choice!
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,413
My husband told me when I was drinking that if I didn't quit, the marriage would be over.
So I quit. The relationship was more important to me than alcohol, and it took lots of hard work and tears but things really improved. I haven't been perfect these past five years, but each time I've relapsed, it has been short, I've been accountable, and taken steps to get a better plan in place and do better.
I'm solidly sober now and grateful for his first ultimatum because that was what kicked me in the pants to get it together.
Meanwhile, his own drinking got very bad for a time and he is the one who has more of an issue. So I have gotten the "joy" of living with addiction myself as a spouse--I grew up with it as a child, and I had numbed how horrible the daily uncertainty, blame, and self-pity of the drunk makes the whole family and home toxic.
Recovery looks like recovery. The addict is humble and accepts that they made the choice to drink whatever life "threw" towards them. They come to understand the harm they have caused, and don't expect a red carpet and to try to force their family's emotions to accept them back or to reconnect when the family member(s) rightly feel emotional risk from their past actions.
In short, they grow up and accept that their actions have consequences.
Speaking from both sides of the fence, I know that I would be very cautious about letting someone who is sending emails like that back in the home without at least a year of real recovery so that the children have a place to feel safe and protected in their home with a stable parent.
Growing up in a home with a drunk, or one in early recovery, is a tense and fearful place for anyone, let alone children who are still developing their psyches and relationships to other people.
We support whatever decision you make, but please do look at some research or talk to a child psychologist with training in dealing with alcoholism's effect on the family about how this can impact your kids not just now, but as adults.
Whatever your husband thinks about what he suffers, they have suffered more and their needs are most important.
You also deserve a life of peace and low stress in your own home. Remember what that is like? I know my husband couldn't relax when I was drinking, and now I have the same feeling. It isn't what I want from my home life and marriage--how about you?
So I quit. The relationship was more important to me than alcohol, and it took lots of hard work and tears but things really improved. I haven't been perfect these past five years, but each time I've relapsed, it has been short, I've been accountable, and taken steps to get a better plan in place and do better.
I'm solidly sober now and grateful for his first ultimatum because that was what kicked me in the pants to get it together.
Meanwhile, his own drinking got very bad for a time and he is the one who has more of an issue. So I have gotten the "joy" of living with addiction myself as a spouse--I grew up with it as a child, and I had numbed how horrible the daily uncertainty, blame, and self-pity of the drunk makes the whole family and home toxic.
Recovery looks like recovery. The addict is humble and accepts that they made the choice to drink whatever life "threw" towards them. They come to understand the harm they have caused, and don't expect a red carpet and to try to force their family's emotions to accept them back or to reconnect when the family member(s) rightly feel emotional risk from their past actions.
In short, they grow up and accept that their actions have consequences.
Speaking from both sides of the fence, I know that I would be very cautious about letting someone who is sending emails like that back in the home without at least a year of real recovery so that the children have a place to feel safe and protected in their home with a stable parent.
Growing up in a home with a drunk, or one in early recovery, is a tense and fearful place for anyone, let alone children who are still developing their psyches and relationships to other people.
We support whatever decision you make, but please do look at some research or talk to a child psychologist with training in dealing with alcoholism's effect on the family about how this can impact your kids not just now, but as adults.
Whatever your husband thinks about what he suffers, they have suffered more and their needs are most important.
You also deserve a life of peace and low stress in your own home. Remember what that is like? I know my husband couldn't relax when I was drinking, and now I have the same feeling. It isn't what I want from my home life and marriage--how about you?
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
That's manipulation. He's putting the onus on you, not where it belongs: himself. His actions got you too this point and he doesn't even mention that. I would tell him to check back in a year from now if he's stayed sober.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 34
Thank you everyone. He has been extra manipulative today. He doesn’t like that I am standing my ground and not backing down on my boundaries and not accepting his blame, guilt or threats. I have lived with his chaos for over 12 years now. Our children are 12, 11, 9 and 7. Old enough now to understand that he has a disease that he needs to fight everyday to be well. I want them to see a calm in me and the household. Each day that I get through makes me stronger and empowers me not to rescue and fix the situation. I have been fixing and trying to control for years. I have started the book “codependency no more” on recommendations from all of you and I am astounded by it’s truth in my life. My self worth is so low, I have become invisible in my own world, I do not take care of myself, trust my own feelings and thoughts. I am finding myself withdrawing more and more. This disease has taken away so much from me and my family and I will stand my ground and not let it take anymore. Ha ha. I sound strong but feel so weak - I think that may be part of the process!
One day at a time here I come.
One day at a time here I come.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,052
It's so easy to lie in a text message. No tone, no body language, just words that people will read the way they want to hear them. Texts and Facebook posts seem to be a favorite way for alcoholics to manipulate their spouses and enablers.
Does it benefit your children to see their alcoholic father? If not, why are you working so hard. Most of my best decisions involved keeping my wife away from my daughter. And I didn't make very many good decisions.
Good luck.
Cyranoak
Does it benefit your children to see their alcoholic father? If not, why are you working so hard. Most of my best decisions involved keeping my wife away from my daughter. And I didn't make very many good decisions.
Good luck.
Cyranoak
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
OH. MY. GOD. You are married to my ExAh and he was a master manipulator. Here is his technique:
1. Tell the truth, but only part of it.
2. Play the victim.
3. "School" you in your deficiencies, so you think you are at fault... for everything eventually.
4. Either implement or manipulate YOU to implement a "solution" that actually causes you erode your boundaries further, while still enabling him or making excuses for his behavior towards you, your offspring, your family, and friends.
Your guy is acting out the "victim-rescuer-perpetrator" cycle. He can be either of those roles at any time. This keeps you off balance. It kept me in the relationship for ten years.
I also started to feel like I was nothing.
His - “My largest concerns are for the kids, their future, their education,.......,our future plans. My thoughts on what growing old with you would have been.....having big family dinners with our kids and grandchildren.......every thing that I have worked the past 15years for ALL GONE if YOU decide. I don’t think it can be more threatening than that. To know that one person and only one person has that much power and control over me is the most vulnerable I have ever been. I’m completely exposed”
Translation: I want you to think I cared more about our kids and our marriage than you did. In fact, the little effort I put into any of those things is such a big deal to me because I am actually unable to put effort into anything, including my health. I may be threatened by my own lack of effort into my own recovery and the fact that I alone have thrown our future away... so I am going to blame you... eventually my mother... the AA meetings... the dog... that mole on my left arm... etc. I am completely playing the victim, boo-hoo, I want a drink.
My reply - “Do you not think I wanted the same thing? That is what I signed up for when I married you. Now I am completely vulnerable and threatened by the disease of alcoholism. It has taken over my life, my dreams, etc. It is made me sick, it has taken away my joy, my dreams and plans,
I have become invisible. The chaos has consumed me. Not to mention the affect it is having on our children”
Yeah, I could have written this at one point.
His reply - “I didn’t want to be an alcoholic I didn’t do it on purpose, I definitely didn’t do it to hurt you or our Family. The truth is I didn’t have a choice. I decided to put everything before me again and relapses. There is a solution if I chose to accept it. You do have a choice on what the future holds as far as family is concerned I do not. I have a choice today to let my disease take over or not to. I have that choice today because I am doing what I have to. The deck is stacked against me to succeed if I continue down the road of uncertainty but that’s just something I have to deal with.”
Translation: I am probably going to drink again and I am going to pretend I have no choice. I am probably going to hurt you again and I am going to pretend I have no choice. I am probably going to hurt the kids again and I am going to pretend I have no choice. Your expectation of me to act like a cooperative human being is TOO HARD... I would rather things go back to the way they were and you enable me and the kids and the dog fear me and ME drink away our savings and our future... and I will pretend that I have no choice because drinking IS my choice.
Only stick to talking about arrangements regarding the kids. IGNORE anything else. If you absolutely have to say anything, just say, "I'm sorry you feel that way". Do not engage with crazy. If he keeps up these antics, you may want to read "Why Does He Do That" by Lundy Bancroft. It helped me so much.
Kids need counseling too.
1. Tell the truth, but only part of it.
2. Play the victim.
3. "School" you in your deficiencies, so you think you are at fault... for everything eventually.
4. Either implement or manipulate YOU to implement a "solution" that actually causes you erode your boundaries further, while still enabling him or making excuses for his behavior towards you, your offspring, your family, and friends.
Your guy is acting out the "victim-rescuer-perpetrator" cycle. He can be either of those roles at any time. This keeps you off balance. It kept me in the relationship for ten years.
I also started to feel like I was nothing.
His - “My largest concerns are for the kids, their future, their education,.......,our future plans. My thoughts on what growing old with you would have been.....having big family dinners with our kids and grandchildren.......every thing that I have worked the past 15years for ALL GONE if YOU decide. I don’t think it can be more threatening than that. To know that one person and only one person has that much power and control over me is the most vulnerable I have ever been. I’m completely exposed”
Translation: I want you to think I cared more about our kids and our marriage than you did. In fact, the little effort I put into any of those things is such a big deal to me because I am actually unable to put effort into anything, including my health. I may be threatened by my own lack of effort into my own recovery and the fact that I alone have thrown our future away... so I am going to blame you... eventually my mother... the AA meetings... the dog... that mole on my left arm... etc. I am completely playing the victim, boo-hoo, I want a drink.
My reply - “Do you not think I wanted the same thing? That is what I signed up for when I married you. Now I am completely vulnerable and threatened by the disease of alcoholism. It has taken over my life, my dreams, etc. It is made me sick, it has taken away my joy, my dreams and plans,
I have become invisible. The chaos has consumed me. Not to mention the affect it is having on our children”
Yeah, I could have written this at one point.
His reply - “I didn’t want to be an alcoholic I didn’t do it on purpose, I definitely didn’t do it to hurt you or our Family. The truth is I didn’t have a choice. I decided to put everything before me again and relapses. There is a solution if I chose to accept it. You do have a choice on what the future holds as far as family is concerned I do not. I have a choice today to let my disease take over or not to. I have that choice today because I am doing what I have to. The deck is stacked against me to succeed if I continue down the road of uncertainty but that’s just something I have to deal with.”
Translation: I am probably going to drink again and I am going to pretend I have no choice. I am probably going to hurt you again and I am going to pretend I have no choice. I am probably going to hurt the kids again and I am going to pretend I have no choice. Your expectation of me to act like a cooperative human being is TOO HARD... I would rather things go back to the way they were and you enable me and the kids and the dog fear me and ME drink away our savings and our future... and I will pretend that I have no choice because drinking IS my choice.
Only stick to talking about arrangements regarding the kids. IGNORE anything else. If you absolutely have to say anything, just say, "I'm sorry you feel that way". Do not engage with crazy. If he keeps up these antics, you may want to read "Why Does He Do That" by Lundy Bancroft. It helped me so much.
Kids need counseling too.
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