FireSprite

This one deals with the Codie side of the street - I'm not talking about manipulation TO friends & family by our qualifiers, but about the way we also use these methods to disguise our own feelings of vulnerability or need to control. I know I've spent years identifying & breaking these habits myself (not to say there's not more to find) - I learned from my mother, the Queen.

You all know my FOO situation is a mess & that I've been LC/NC with them for a while now. I have tried countless times to create bridges for us & eventually had to just cut contact for self preservation & to "walk my talk" as DD14 puts it.... she calls me out when my actions don't match my words & with my FOO I was always somehow accepting unacceptable behavior.

I did however, all but beg my mom to just focus on building a relationship with DD because they don't have the same long history of dysfunction. That if we let things cool down a bit, maybe we could ease into something "new" because our long-established routines & patterns were a disservice to ALL of us & I was no longer going to volunteer for that situation. I've explained this all more than once over the last 2 years.

For a quick timeline - things have been dissolving for years, but I've had to really put my foot down with boundaries 2-3 yrs ago. Last spring things exploded & I tried AGAIN to explain my POV over the summer after giving things time to cool. My mother was away for many weeks & returned in the fall. We texted once over that time when she asked about bringing DD treats from a local chocolatier where she stays. I said, yes, she'll love it -thinking this would be an easy reason for her to contact DD when she returned & DD really does enjoy the stuff. But DD never heard from her about that or anything. Mom lives 5 mins across town.

On Thanksgiving & Christmas all 3 of us rec'd texts wishing us a happy holiday. We all responded politely but I was absolutely crushed that they are willing to ignore DD so fully despite how clearly I've stated that OUR issues are unrelated to THEIR relationship. She's 14 & has had her own phone for years. She is out of school hours before we get home from work & has all kinds of time she could easily spend with her grandmother - I've said this over & over & over. I've told my mother that hell - she can likely even fix our problems by simply working on a better relationship with DD. I've pointed out how she DOES spend this time with my niece & nephew & treats DD differently; she treats her like me.

Yesterday DD received a Valentine's Day card in the mail - we have never celebrated this holiday. The handwriting on the address is angry & BIG & LOUD. It fills almost the entire oversized envelope.

DD says this just feels "weird" & that she feels "pressured" to respond "perfectly". That the whole thing is shallow because she didn't even write anything personal in the card - just signed her name. Of course you feel badly DD - she just threw an emotional bomb in your lap. There IS no right way to handle it - ignore it & you're ungrateful. Call it the manipulation it clearly is & oh jesus, aren't we impossible people to make happy? You're just like your mother!

I'm so angry that I can't do anything right now - I'm reactive & emotional so definitely not the right time. My Mama Bear inside is ROARING her head off that her cub has been injured in this way, even while I know I can never protect her from all of this & that she's probably more capable of managing it than most adults I know.

But why in the world should she HAVE to? She's 14!

Mango212

Burning it sounds like fun.

Would DD perhaps enjoy that?

I was absolutely crushed that they are...

We don't get to choose other peoples actions. We do get to choose our responses to them. This might be a really good one to replay in a new way through meditation by choosing a series of new responses to visualize while going through the same scenario.

The writing on the envelope is weird. It seems like DD is having very normal emotions in response to it.

-----
btw - intents mean more than actions. Sometimes we know intents, sometimes we don't really know. I've sent and received cards with only a signature on them before that still held good, deep meanings. There seems to be a lot more to this, eh?

SparkleKitty

There's a big gulf between "an emotional bomb" (how you perceive the card) and "weird" (how DD states that she perceives the card). There is also a big gulf between "ignoring it" and "calling it out for the manipulation that it is."

You cannot control your mother or how she approaches her relationship with your daughter, a relationship that is separate from either your relationship with mom, or with DD (even though it doesn't feel like it).

If there is any 14-year-old on the planet who can see your mom for who she is--and who she isn't--it's your DD. Step back. Trust her. Let her decide whether and/or how to respond.

FireSprite

You're right SK - I do trust DD & I took a big step back. We talked for just a few minutes, I let her know the door was open & that she should take some time to think about how she feels because I don't want to put words in her mouth. (I came here to rant instead, lol)

The phrase she used to describe it was that it felt like the 'Sword of Damocles" but the wording of "emotional bomb" is mine - because it falls in line with the pattern of behavior she's used with me for decades.

(....and that follows a pattern set in motion by her mother before her which we've talked about before because she can recognize it in the behavior of others toward her, just not in herself.)

AnvilheadII

you cannot redo or fix YOUR relationship with YOUR mother thru your daughter. you cannot control how anyone else thinks, acts or behaves. nor can you force your mother and daughter into a "relationship" that will make you feel better.

i think you are reading wayyyy too much into stuff. and dragging DD into it. you have characterized the handwriting as angry? and an emotional bomb? that's all on you.

why not just back off. show your daughter that we are not obligated to have relationships with anyone, even if they are family. that she does not have to respond at all. and that she likely has an absent grandmother. so be it.

NYCDoglvr

I received a very nasty, cutting birthday card from an aunt. Later my brother visited and when I showed it to him he said: "so why are you hanging on to it?" Suffice to say the clouds parted and I went no contact with her for the rest of her life. She had always been like this, cutting and angry, and I was the last person in the family to try to maintain a relationship with her. That's why Alanon is so helpful..........another person can quickly point out what I don't see about myself. Favorite Alanon saying: "let go or be dragged". And, of course: "I'm powerless over people, places and things."

Big hug. Very tough when a child is involved.

Mango212

Later my brother visited and when I showed it to him he said: "so why are you hanging on to it?" Suffice to say the clouds parted

I'm laughing with this. It feels really good to have laughter in my life!

I ***just*** cut up a small card that has been on my kitchen table for a week. It had obvious meaning, yet today I had a different take on it and it felt super right to cut it up.

FireSprite

Ok - tell me how I'm NOT stepping aside.

Tell me how I'm dragging DD into things?

I've made it a point to stay out of things & let things evolve between them (or not) naturally. I don't make contact with FOO or talk to DD about any of it unless she asks questions (she had a lot over the holidays for instance - I'm not turning her away when she comes to me for answers or explanations & I'm always clear that I can only ever explain things as I perceive them).

I realize I can't fix anything but don't see how I'm trying/forcing anything; and I'm still entitled to my feelings around what happens even if I never act on them - it's not like I called my mother to read her the riot act or told DD how to handle (or not handle) anything. In fact, I told her there was no "right" answer. All I did was come here to vent & yeah, that's muddled with a lot of MY opinions & feelings... but that's not stuff I said to DD, I wasn't directly quoting myself, those were thoughts just happening in my head... sorry if it sounded like part of conversation we had. I never used the phrase 'emotional bomb" with her, for example.

I didn't throw the card out without letting DD know it arrived (which was a thought - to just keep her from having to deal with whatever was inside).

I asked her one thing after she opened the card in her room & then came back out with a sad look & her mood had shifted, half-heartedly holding the edge of the card - "Are you OK? Is there anything you want to talk about?"

What am I missing?

Mango212

I'm not following... ??

I see you leading very well, stepping back often, doing really, really good things for yourself and DD.

Gentle hugs, my friend. (((((hugs)))))

SparkleKitty

I think I was mostly responding to these efforts to explain to your mother, to show her where she's failing your DD...I have to wonder why you even want her to have a relationship with DD at all. Why would you think she is going to be a different person with DD than she is with you?

Let me add that no one understands your issues with your mom better than me. I think the way you've raised your DD is exceptional, simply exceptional considering what you were brought up to believe was normal. But I know that I have years' worth of blind spots when it comes to family. Take what you like and leave the rest.

trailmix

I know someone who has 2 children.

The paternal grandparents all but ignored them. Initially I think there were some birthday cards etc (they lived quite a distance away) and then just - nothing.

Now, the kids actually noticed, their other grandparents were good about remembering such things and happy to celebrate with them, so they saw the contrast.

The Mother, of these two, went totally NC with the paternal grandparents. Now this caused a bit of friction of course because they were still the Father's parents - however she was not interested, if he wanted to keep a relationship with them fine, but the rest of them were out and she never wavered from that (the Husband went very LC).

In some ways I guess I see that as showing them that you won't allow other people to treat them badly either? Or at least you aren't going to participate. Very tough when it's such a close family member.

Anyway FS, as far as the way you handle this with your daughter, it's exemplary in my opinion.

FireSprite

Gotcha - yeah, that was said years ago when I initiated LC. I was trying to be clear with her that my stepping aside didn't mean I was keeping her from DD, that they could still find ways to spend time & bond together & that maybe by changing the focus, things could change. Just giving space & time for things to evolve. Instead it's all gone in the opposite direction. The "over & over" part is because mom has come back to me again & again demanding answers to these same questions over the years; I've run out of new words to explain the same stuff & finally just stopped over the summer when I realized she was never going to get it because she didn't WANT to. She was never actually listening to me & her perspective was never changing.

I guess I struggle because other than me & my husband, DD has no one else in this world. His family has been out of our lives for years & never had any relationship with DD at all, ever. I guess I feel like she deserves more but really, she deserves Better Than What We Have To Offer collectively. It makes me very, very sad. She has all this talent & all these accomplishments & opportunities & no one to care. No one showing up to cheer her on.

Our families both suck in huge, painful ways.

Thanks to all of you for talking me through this stuff. I appreciate the kudos on parenting even though that's not what I was looking for here..... in the end I know I'd rather feel this burn every day & know that it means she's got a brighter future because of it... but, damn. It hurts that they don't value the person that she is separate from me. That they can't put everything aside & just SEE her.

SparkleKitty

Your DD will build her own family. She will gather people around her to support her and cheer her on. You have given her all of the tools she needs to do this, and moreover, the family she gathers around her will be healthy and reflect the best in her.

I moved far from home when I was 22. I'm 47 now and in those 25 years I have built bonds that are far stronger than any blood bonds I was born with. You are not solely responsible for providing her the family that she needs and deserves.

Mango212

I'm having the same experience of having my family created in a new very healthy way.

DD has everone else in this world.

As toxic people drop away, there becomes a beautiful space for new opportunities.

FireSprite

Why did I need to hear this from someone else to see this Fear clearly?


I KNOW this just as well as I know how hard it was for me to get to the same exact place myself. I had to remove hoards of toxic people from my life in order to separate myself from their dysfunction. The difference is that she's not starting out with those kinds of people - so she won't have to go through this same process in the future.

Since posting this the Universe has pointedly shown me how off base I am with this fear.... there have been tons of great little signs but what really hit home was receiving emails from her 1st grade teacher AND her middle school counselor out of the blue, both full of unexpected compliments for both of us & more opportunities for her over the summer. Both teachers are also attending an upcoming musical theater performance she has - she was the only freshman cast & it's her first real show. The entire cast & crew of upperclassmen has taken her under-wing to mentor & coach her in every part of this from vocals to choreography & blocking. It's been overwhelming for her to get this level of support without judgment.

I also thought a bit more about this:

because it's not like me, in most situations. But you know what? Yeah - here, I CAN do this & here's why:

As a child growing up with an emotionally crippled, codependent mother who was so incapable of expressing the slightest emotion properly, I have spent my entire lifetime being finely tuned to every subtle nuance of her behavior.... EXACTLY the same way I learned how to deal with my addict father. She's still the same unrecovering codie, just as if she was an alcoholic that has never stopped drinking. This IS part of how she shows her anger.

This was SURVIVAL in my FOO household. So, no, these aren't assumptions the way it would be if I made the same comment about someone else. This is critical thinking & survival instinct at work - I've been here, done this & recognize the Tee Shirt. She hasn't changed but my awareness HAS.

Sure I might be wrong, but if we look back historically & lay odds it's going to show 99.99% chance of me being right.

For the record, I do believe DD opted to ignore the card & let it go with no response. She left the card in my car the morning we talked about & hasn't brought it up again. (I brought it inside & left it on the kitchen counter for her in our "communication area" & it's been there since)

Mango212

The entire cast & crew of upperclassmen has taken her under-wing to mentor & coach her in every part of this from vocals to choreography & blocking.

Bravo, DD, friends and Universe!!! Good things happen. It's fun, good and necessary to take note of them.

For the record, I do believe DD opted to ignore the card & let it go with no response. She left the card in my car the morning we talked about & hasn't brought it up again. (I brought it inside & left it on the kitchen counter for her in our "communication area" & it's been there since)

The words that stick out to me is "believe DD opted to ignore it", while it's in your communication area.

SmallButMighty

I was away last week so I missed the start of this thread.

Fire, I think you are doing an amazing job of raising that young woman you have been gifted. You've broken the sick cycle and hopefully started a chain reaction of bigger, brighter and better for the future children in your family. You are gonna be such a kick ass grandma!

You know, it's hard raising a kid, even when they get to be young adults we still want to protect them. I think that's normal and not necessarily codependent behavior, at least not the sick kind. It's the parental kind, in that we have had to have been co-mingled with them to keep them alive as they grow to the point that they don't need out protection any more. I think it's a harder transition for us than it is for them. Those mama bear instincts don't stop just because that cub is taller than we are now....

I think for Mamas like you, and me, and many others here who have been painfully codependent, many of us raised in dysfunction, who have or are coming out the other side of it all... maybe its hard to find distinction between our codependent thinking and how it feels to go through the normal progression of watching that child separate. It's hard, because both things are about control, and our lack there of. It's messy.

All that said,

I believe that your mother was being angry and manipulative. She wanted a reaction, any reaction, so SHE could react ( like a toddler, "any attention is good attention" right?)...not getting a reaction has probably been driving her nuts. She has all that codie rage with no where to direct it now. It's likely she was wanting the reaction from YOU, knowing it would get under your skin more then your daughter's. Sucks that she would use your kid like that. And it sucks she would play you like that. And it sucks she did upset you... but you know what?.... You didn't give her what she wanted... Now she has to boil in her own juices and you and daughter are free from it all. You did great!

I'm sorry your daughter doesn't have loving grandparents, but I am so glad to hear she is thriving and growing her own tribe. I think for many of us, it's probably better to have a chosen family anyways.

FireSprite

I really appreciate your input SBM - you and I have chatted a lot about FOO/codie issues so you know a lot of the history that layers behind all of this. I hear you on the normal Mama Bear stuff too - I know it's always more complicated for me when it's coming from FOO FOG.... but let's see how I handle DD being 6000 miles away this summer.

I completely agree with you - 100%. She has only EVER contacted DD as a way to get to me. (with the exception of her birthday) She only calls or texts her when she's been getting NC from me & can't force me to respond. When things blew up last spring, I had to have a conversation with my daughter asking her to ignore grandma's calls in order to remove herself from the middle of the drama. I couldn't stomach the idea of her being used in that way.

After she was in my office last spring for her annual appt, I had to send her paperwork electronically, which she was aware of. I re-sent it SIX times & she still won't reply/respond because she wants me to CALL her or come to her house with this paperwork. I'm following normal procedure for my office, per my boss' instructions but my mom is going to take it personally that I'm not personalizing this service for her. (which is fully unnecessary btw, this is standard account maintenance/management stuff) These are the ways she has always forced contact - like you said, positive or negative attention are interchangeable for her.

I am positive that for the last 6 months, mom's been alternating between boiling in her own angry juices like you said & oh-poor-me'ing about how I'm punishing her. (with me, she's only ever a bully or a victim, there is no in-between) I know she's getting riled up because the contact itself makes NO sense - she ignored DD at Christmas but made it a point to contact her for a holiday we never celebrate & doesn't even lend itself to their relationship. (Especially for a 14 yr old HS freshman, she found the entire thing odd - "I'm grandma's valentine? What am I, 3 yrs old? Why didn't she just call me when I was on school break for 2+wks over the holidays??")

I hate that this got to me the way it did, but I learned from it too (internal work) AND had fantastic conversations with both DD & my husband about it all.

Lately, every time someone drops a bomb in our laps, it ends up opening up great conversations that are needed & relevant in ways where we 3 can support one another, stay (mostly) out of judgment with each other & bond as a result of going through the process of it all together, differently than we have before. Another incident with my friend's husband a couple of months ago netted the same results - we bonded more as a family because we talked openly & honestly from the moment the issue arose. No secrets = no room for shame & blame = we get stronger as a family. I'll take it!

Sasha1972

This really resonates with me. I too have a kind, smart, gifted, hard-working DD who is growing into a very interesting and thoughtful young woman, and I feel really badly that she doesn't have more than me in the way of family. (My parents and two brothers live on the other side of the country - my parents are elderly and infirm, and while I get on very well with one brother, we've never been close). Her father's family seems to have dropped her completely after I left her father - no birthday or Christmas cards, no contact with his siblings (his parents are both deceased). In the almost-three years that Kid has been living with me full-time while her father spirals down, I've heard nothing from any of them. I don't expect them to be very fond of me, but I had hoped that they would have some interest in her.

It wasn't until recently that it occurred to me that this is weird - that in normal families, extended family members might stay in touch with a grandchild or niece or nephew even after a divorce. Ex's family is an alcoholic and addicted mess, and if you're not part of their drama (as Kid and I are not any more), you don't exist for them.

I have been trying to make "chosen family" here, by cultivating relationships between Kid and my friends who are good adult role models and who care about her. But it's hard. I agree with you that our kids deserve better than what they've got. The trick is to try to give them the best we can, without taking on ourselves the responsibility for other people's failures to show up.