When you find it hard to love yourself.

Old 01-31-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by trailmix View Post
Ah if only you could erase every insult he has every cast your way.

And that is just what it is you know, a controlling way to put someone down. I mean what can you do with that statement?

So there you are, in this really dysfunctional relationship. He is narcissistic and controlling and then he says - "you are too needy".

Well isn't that just the icing on the cake.

What he was really saying is you need to NOT need anything from me, ever. Don't put your feelings or needs on my plate, no room here, I'm really busy focusing on myself. All you are left with is no support and a nice "label". Nice guy.

Here is a book you might find interesting, don't know if it will speak to you but it might. I've only read the sample but I have read about the author:

Whole Again: Healing Your Heart and Rediscovering Your True Self After Toxic Relationships and Emotional Abuse
by Jackson MacKenzie
Thanks I'll check it out. Yes he has left me with a lovely label. Still happy with that decision to have him blocked at least. Maybe this new guy would be open to hearing about my needs, well maybe not now 😥.
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Old 01-31-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Glenjo99 View Post
Thanks I'll check it out. Yes he has left me with a lovely label. Still happy with that decision to have him blocked at least. Maybe this new guy would be open to hearing about my needs, well maybe not now ��.
It's important to remember the source and shake it off.

Now if your Grandfather sat you down and said, grandson, we need to talk about how you try to monopolize everyone's time and demand so much - then you have a heart to heart with someone you respect and you act accordingly. Deciding for yourself if this is true and if it is, you do the work (IF you want to).

When a self-serving addict throws out an insult, let that slide right off your back, it is meaningless. That's where having that grounding, knowing who you are comes in to play, then when someone like the addict decides to have a go at you it can't hurt you because you know who and what you are.

As for texting or not. Just ask yourself why you aren't? I mean I already know- you are scared. Scared of what? That he won't respond the way you want him to? If he doesn't so be it, you are not married you are dating him and while it might be a bit sad, you'll get through it.

If he doesn't respond in kind, count yourself lucky that you found out early what HE is looking for which might not match up with what you are looking for. Imagine if you had cut off the texting with the addict at a much earlier date.
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Old 01-31-2019, 12:56 PM
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When you are getting to know someone, a person’s attachment style comes into play too (secure, anxious preoccupied, dismissive avoidant, fearful avoidant). Maybe you guys have different attachment styles, and it’s bringing stuff up (along with everything else you’ve been going through)?

I also agree it’s a very basic and real human need to love and to be loved, and to feel accepted and included. We are social creatures after all. Maybe you weren’t getting this from the ex, and maybe you will or maybe you won’t get what you need from this new guy. Maybe your friends, or other types of supports, will end up being what’s most helpful for you?
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Old 01-31-2019, 01:10 PM
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This has all got me to thinking (in case that isn't obvious lol).

Yes, attachment style as pdm mentions, you haven't known him long enough to find out what his is.

One other thing I thought of. Let's turn the story around for a minute.

Mr. Date texts Saturday to cancel - Mom needs help with her house.

You say, np, talk to you again soon!

Mr. Date reschedules for the next day.

Is Mr. Date needy? I mean you missed one date, he wanted to see you within hours, how needy is that, could he not have waited until the next evening or Sunday??

Well no it doesn't mean anything of the sort, but I bet if it were you, you would have been asking, should I ask him for lunch? I mean we just missed one date, maybe I should wait and call him on Sunday?

See what I mean.

Also, what you perceived he was like on Saturday may well be him picking up on your emotions because of Saturday. You are now wary of him.
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Old 01-31-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by trailmix View Post
This has all got me to thinking (in case that isn't obvious lol).

Yes, attachment style as pdm mentions, you haven't known him long enough to find out what his is.

One other thing I thought of. Let's turn the story around for a minute.

Mr. Date texts Saturday to cancel - Mom needs help with her house.

You say, np, talk to you again soon!

Mr. Date reschedules for the next day.

Is Mr. Date needy? I mean you missed one date, he wanted to see you within hours, how needy is that, could he not have waited until the next evening or Sunday??

Well no it doesn't mean anything of the sort, but I bet if it were you, you would have been asking, should I ask him for lunch? I mean we just missed one date, maybe I should wait and call him on Sunday?

See what I mean.

Also, what you perceived he was like on Saturday may well be him picking up on your emotions because of Saturday. You are now wary of him.
​​​​​​

So accurate. I am now wary of texting opening up to him now! Hit nail on head.
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Old 01-31-2019, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by pdm22 View Post
When you are getting to know someone, a person’s attachment style comes into play too (secure, anxious preoccupied, dismissive avoidant, fearful avoidant). Maybe you guys have different attachment styles, and it’s bringing stuff up (along with everything else you’ve been going through)?

I also agree it’s a very basic and real human need to love and to be loved, and to feel accepted and included. We are social creatures after all. Maybe you weren’t getting this from the ex, and maybe you will or maybe you won’t get what you need from this new guy. Maybe your friends, or other types of supports, will end up being what’s most helpful for you?
Good point I think we have different attachment styles. His is more secure. Neither is right.
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Old 01-31-2019, 02:41 PM
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Old 02-01-2019, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII View Post
.
Very profound anvilhead. 😀
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Old 02-01-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Glenjo99 View Post
Good point I think we have different attachment styles. His is more secure. Neither is right.
I'm wondering why you don't think a secure attachment style is a positive thing? I've worked hard to move from anxious to secure, and I've seen many positive changes in my life as a result.

I take it that your attachment style is Anxious? Most people with secure attachment will back off from someone who comes across as anxiously attached, and they will do it with a slow fade, just like this guy who you have been dating for the past few weeks.

You may find that your chemistry is great with people who are avoidantly attached. But they have their own attachment issues, and will start with deactivation behavior as soon as you trigger them with your anxiety.

For me, the only solution to a happier life was to work on my own attachment style and to figure out what was at the root of it. Once I really understood my own attachment style and why I was often triggered in such strange and automatic ways, I was able to move toward secure attachment.

Believe me, it's a much better place to operate from. Until you work through this stuff Glenjo, you'll just be bounced around from unhappy relationship to unhappy relationship by your triggers like a ping pong ball.

But, if you're anything like me, you won't make progress until you are just bone tired of spinning around in your own thought processes. I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing 20s? Took me till my late 40s to value these insights.

Jeb Kinnison has a very useful site on attachment issues. Google attachment type jeb kinnison. They have a forum that I found very helpful too.
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Old 02-01-2019, 09:42 AM
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This attachment stuff you guys are sharing is fascinating & new to me - thanks!!

here's a link to the online test: http://www.web-research-design.net/cgi-bin/crq/crq.pl
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Old 02-01-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by FireSprite View Post
This attachment stuff you guys are sharing is fascinating & new to me - thanks!!

here's a link to the online test: Attachment Styles and Close Relationships

It’s interesting stuff. They say securely attached people tend to pair off and do well in stable relationships, and avoidant/ anxiously attachment people tend to be attracted to each other. What looks like and gets labeled as codependency, is often the dance between avoidants/ anxious types.

So much can be mishandled the first year of infancy, I cringe when I hear people say an infant (who isn’t even aware that they aren’t a part of the mother’s body for the first few months!) should just “cry it out”; “they gotta learn”. I often wonder if some people who are labeled as “borderline” really don’t have reactive attachment disorder. You hear about it with people who were raised in orphanages and weren’t held enough, but I think it happens in environments where caregivers just lacked parenting skills and ignored babies too, and in cases of abuse/ neglect. I read some studies where kids who were securely attached, particularly to the mother, the first 5 years of life faired better long term, even if some tragedy happened to them after that. Very interesting- I think I still have a foot in the avoidant side, but I was worse when I was younger.


Glenjo- another thing, is with the texting, people are so different about that. Some people don’t like to text, others like that as a means of communication. Then some people do that thing, where they don’t respond, and make contact later when they have time? But they sometimes take, like, days (or more)? So if you don’t know someone well, or how they are, and what they do with texting, it can get misinterpreted?

Also, you know how they say over 90% of communication is non verbal? I think that can get confusing with texting as well, since you don’t have the person in front of you to pick up on facial expressions and body language ...
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:32 PM
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Attachment makes so much sense. Something I never heard of before. I wonder if on my path to healing I am pulling further away from avoiding husband.
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Old 02-01-2019, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by pdm22 View Post
I often wonder if some people who are labeled as “borderline” really don’t have reactive attachment disorder.
I believe that there is a lot of correlation between attachment issues and Cluster B personality disorders.

People who are fearful avoidant tend toward borderline personality disorder characteristics as you move out along the fearful avoidant spectrum. That "I hate you, don't leave me!" trait.

Dismissive avoidants tend to have more self confidence than fearful avoidants, and further out on the dismissive avoidant spectrum you go, the more narcissistic traits you find.

Anxious Pre-occupieds (the attachment type of many who post in Friends and Family) tend toward codependency the further along the spectrum one goes.

Attachment theory is a fascinating subject. The whole codependency thing came up as a way to explain how partners could be just as sick as the addicts that they love, back in the 1980s and 1990s. A lot of work has been done in attachment theory since then, and it has done much to deepen my own understanding of how we can get so wrapped up in the drama of relationships with addicts. Anxious and Dismissive are on opposite ends of the attachment spectrum, but really we are like different sides of the same coin. There is a deep attraction between the two, but it usually ends in misery.
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Old 02-01-2019, 06:34 PM
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^ yeah the whole opposites attracting thing can cause a lot of grief for sure, especially when both people have unresolved childhood traumas /issues that are being acted out. Getting out of that, and finding some healing & stability can seem like such an out-of- reach thing when you’re in it, but it can be done .
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Old 02-01-2019, 09:16 PM
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This is **just me**..BUT..I've lost count how many times you compared your ex and the way he treated you and your concerns(after only 9 dates)about this new guy...**for me**..9 dates is quite a lot in the 1st month'ish when I'm actively dating and I'm NOT comitting to anyone in a month's time,when I have zero clue who that real person is. If you're getting this 'worked up' after only 9 dates, all the while comparing his every 'move/non-move' to your ex..**I'd** say you're not ready to date and need to focus on yourself and your healing...again..**just me** and the way I approach new relationships/dating.
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Old 02-01-2019, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FireSprite View Post
This attachment stuff you guys are sharing is fascinating & new to me - thanks!!

here's a link to the online test: Attachment Styles and Close Relationships
How interesting! Never heard of that and it pretty much got me to a 'T'!
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Old 02-02-2019, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by DontRemember View Post
This is **just me**..BUT..I've lost count how many times you compared your ex and the way he treated you and your concerns(after only 9 dates)about this new guy...**for me**..9 dates is quite a lot in the 1st month'ish when I'm actively dating and I'm NOT comitting to anyone in a month's time,when I have zero clue who that real person is. If you're getting this 'worked up' after only 9 dates, all the while comparing his every 'move/non-move' to your ex..**I'd** say you're not ready to date and need to focus on yourself and your healing...again..**just me** and the way I approach new relationships/dating.

Yes fair point I know I have a lot of healing to do.
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Old 02-02-2019, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Needabreak View Post
I'm wondering why you don't think a secure attachment style is a positive thing? I've worked hard to move from anxious to secure, and I've seen many positive changes in my life as a result.

I take it that your attachment style is Anxious? Most people with secure attachment will back off from someone who comes across as anxiously attached, and they will do it with a slow fade, just like this guy who you have been dating for the past few weeks.

You may find that your chemistry is great with people who are avoidantly attached. But they have their own attachment issues, and will start with deactivation behavior as soon as you trigger them with your anxiety.

For me, the only solution to a happier life was to work on my own attachment style and to figure out what was at the root of it. Once I really understood my own attachment style and why I was often triggered in such strange and automatic ways, I was able to move toward secure attachment.

Believe me, it's a much better place to operate from. Until you work through this stuff Glenjo, you'll just be bounced around from unhappy relationship to unhappy relationship by your triggers like a ping pong ball.

But, if you're anything like me, you won't make progress until you are just bone tired of spinning around in your own thought processes. I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing 20s? Took me till my late 40s to value these insights.

Jeb Kinnison has a very useful site on attachment issues. Google attachment type jeb kinnison. They have a forum that I found very helpful too.
Of course a secure attachment styles is positive! What I mean was because I don't have secure style doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me (was trying to be gentle with myself lol) but ideally one would like to be secure. I'm 44 years of age. So would you say your secure now?

When you said "You may find that your chemistry is great with people who are avoidantly attached" I totally agree. I had huge chemistry with my ex who was avoidant. I do believe I was attracted to him subconsciously because I knew he could not love me back and I believed I didn't deserve love.

I am working on this believe me. After all the crap I've been through I'm trying to change my beliefs that I do deserve to be loved, treated with dignity and that I am loveable. This new guy is total opposite. I don't have any real what one might call fireworks/chemistry with him but he is kind, asks me stuff about myself and takes me on dates. It's so nice to go to dinner cinema etc and have conversations. This is why I'm working on giving this a shot. It's completely different from anything I've done before and I'm looking at how someone treats me as oppossed to looks/chemistry.

I know I have to work on my insecurities if I want this to work.
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Old 02-02-2019, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by pdm22 View Post
It’s interesting stuff. They say securely attached people tend to pair off and do well in stable relationships, and avoidant/ anxiously attachment people tend to be attracted to each other. What looks like and gets labeled as codependency, is often the dance between avoidants/ anxious types.

So much can be mishandled the first year of infancy, I cringe when I hear people say an infant (who isn’t even aware that they aren’t a part of the mother’s body for the first few months!) should just “cry it out”; “they gotta learn”. I often wonder if some people who are labeled as “borderline” really don’t have reactive attachment disorder. You hear about it with people who were raised in orphanages and weren’t held enough, but I think it happens in environments where caregivers just lacked parenting skills and ignored babies too, and in cases of abuse/ neglect. I read some studies where kids who were securely attached, particularly to the mother, the first 5 years of life faired better long term, even if some tragedy happened to them after that. Very interesting- I think I still have a foot in the avoidant side, but I was worse when I was younger.


Glenjo- another thing, is with the texting, people are so different about that. Some people don’t like to text, others like that as a means of communication. Then some people do that thing, where they don’t respond, and make contact later when they have time? But they sometimes take, like, days (or more)? So if you don’t know someone well, or how they are, and what they do with texting, it can get misinterpreted?

Also, you know how they say over 90% of communication is non verbal? I think that can get confusing with texting as well, since you don’t have the person in front of you to pick up on facial expressions and body language ...
I know what you mean about people being different about texting. I decided to be the bigger person and texted him. He said he was very busy all week and that's why he didn't text. So we met up last night, went to dinner and cinema after and back to his after. I mentioned some things to him, explained that I get anxious from time to time and how I'm used to someone texting more, he is not a big texter. So he said he would like to be exclusive at the moment with me which is nice, and it's up to me now how I handle the texting side of things. Just have to accept it or move on but I'm sticking with him for now.
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Old 02-02-2019, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Glenjo99 View Post
I know what you mean about people being different about texting. I decided to be the bigger person and texted him. He said he was very busy all week and that's why he didn't text. So we met up last night, went to dinner and cinema after and back to his after. I mentioned some things to him, explained that I get anxious from time to time and how I'm used to someone texting more, he is not a big texter. So he said he would like to be exclusive at the moment with me which is nice, and it's up to me now how I handle the texting side of things. Just have to accept it or move on but I'm sticking with him for now.
Oh good, he sounds really nice. When you express your concerns to someone, and they try to help you and meet you where you are at, that’s actually a sign of a securely attached person, which would probably be a nice change of pace for you. I see things similar to you about how all of the different styles just are- I think it’s something like 50% of people come out of childhood securely attached, the other 50% a mix of anxious and avoidant, and it’s all pretty much within the range of „normal”, especially when you look at what people go through in early childhood/ childhood.

If we weren’t in the lucky 50% to come out of childhood securely attached, it’s good to have people in our lives who were, to help model that, and to help us learn how to attach and bond in a trusting way. That’s part of the reason why it’s good to have therapeutic relationships like that, especially if we don’t have other people in our lives who can model that, and provide that support for us.
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