How much do we let go of?
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
How much do we let go of?
So... this may or may not be OT. It concerns FOO(L). The L stands of "lunacy".
In learning to detach from a self-destructive person, I have also learned to detach from other situations or people whose behavior I could not control (or just didn't want to tolerate). Some guy wants to borrow $50? Sorry, I have no control over poverty. Some kid lost their lunch? Sorry, I'm not giving them my sandwich... etc. A lot of this was good: I get to keep $50, I get to eat. But I am concerned that if I keep doing this, I will simply become a person with no empathy.
Recently one of parents refused to get medical help. They have an obvious melanoma. If it is removed and examined, there is a chance that it won't be cancerous. If it is cancerous and removed, they have a 91% chance of survival. I offered to pay for the appointment, but they refused: "how long do you expect me to live anyway? I'm already 80" etc... They have been like this about other health issues. They think that once you go to the doctor and they label you with a disease, you actually get the disease and that's what kills you. No, they are not mentally incompetent (yet), but the older they get, the more "superstitious" they have become. [I blame myself. My relationship with an addict was really the straw that broke their back -- they wouldn't have been exposed to any of that... if I had chosen a better partner. That, and their remaining parent dying, really affected them negatively. Also, their finances are not great -- part of this is because they thought they could "help" the addict].
So, obviously I can't change their mind. Elders have a right to autonomy and dignity... etc. But this means that if they get sick as a result of lack of self-care, I will send up a carer. I am the only one who will do this. My siblings have their families. I am the only one alone because my ExAh is out of the picture. The parent has made it clear that they never want to be in assisted living or have a visiting nurse... ever. They don't want ANY help... ever. This is not realistic, is it?
I have already spent the best part of my youth and adulthood looking after an irrational, abusive, addict. I don't want to spend the best part of my middle age looking after an irrational, elderly parent. If I do this, I can 100% guarantee that, having spent all my resources caring for others, I will not have much time or energy to make anything else of my life... and I will spend my dotage alone, being eaten alive by domestic cats.
Talk to me. Do I sit back and let things just happen? Am I catastrophizing (is that a word?). Is this codependent thinking? Does anyone have experience with this sort of thing?
In learning to detach from a self-destructive person, I have also learned to detach from other situations or people whose behavior I could not control (or just didn't want to tolerate). Some guy wants to borrow $50? Sorry, I have no control over poverty. Some kid lost their lunch? Sorry, I'm not giving them my sandwich... etc. A lot of this was good: I get to keep $50, I get to eat. But I am concerned that if I keep doing this, I will simply become a person with no empathy.
Recently one of parents refused to get medical help. They have an obvious melanoma. If it is removed and examined, there is a chance that it won't be cancerous. If it is cancerous and removed, they have a 91% chance of survival. I offered to pay for the appointment, but they refused: "how long do you expect me to live anyway? I'm already 80" etc... They have been like this about other health issues. They think that once you go to the doctor and they label you with a disease, you actually get the disease and that's what kills you. No, they are not mentally incompetent (yet), but the older they get, the more "superstitious" they have become. [I blame myself. My relationship with an addict was really the straw that broke their back -- they wouldn't have been exposed to any of that... if I had chosen a better partner. That, and their remaining parent dying, really affected them negatively. Also, their finances are not great -- part of this is because they thought they could "help" the addict].
So, obviously I can't change their mind. Elders have a right to autonomy and dignity... etc. But this means that if they get sick as a result of lack of self-care, I will send up a carer. I am the only one who will do this. My siblings have their families. I am the only one alone because my ExAh is out of the picture. The parent has made it clear that they never want to be in assisted living or have a visiting nurse... ever. They don't want ANY help... ever. This is not realistic, is it?
I have already spent the best part of my youth and adulthood looking after an irrational, abusive, addict. I don't want to spend the best part of my middle age looking after an irrational, elderly parent. If I do this, I can 100% guarantee that, having spent all my resources caring for others, I will not have much time or energy to make anything else of my life... and I will spend my dotage alone, being eaten alive by domestic cats.
Talk to me. Do I sit back and let things just happen? Am I catastrophizing (is that a word?). Is this codependent thinking? Does anyone have experience with this sort of thing?
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
Oh friend. I can understand this. I am at an age that my father has some ailments that are fairly major. As of now, my mother really takes care of him as she is younger than him and able to do so. In the near future, a choice will have to be made. I physically live much closer than my sibling, although not in the same town as my parents. I am well aware of who will be the "helper."
My father is unable to make decisions to take care of himself or not. My mother has medical power of attorney, which greatly helps. He is now doing things like having fits when he has to undergo tests. We have one coming up that I am attending to try to help keep him settled (in the hopes he will not act like a toddler in front of his own child).
Eventually my mother will not be able to continue to do this. They have made it very clear they do not plan to use a nursing home or assisted living. They live at their same home with too much land for them to take care of. It's a very hard situation.
In this case, I don't see how you can make someone seek treatment. I know for my father, we normally go in and speak to the dr w/out him and explain what the issue is, but if you cannot get them to go to the dr what good does it do?
I think you can offer assistance, and that is all you can do. You have to make it clear that you cannot be their care taker on your own, but that you are happy to pay for the dr, go along, etc. I think that is all you can do.
It's so hard. I am sorry, I feel like I just rambled through this post. I just want to say you are in my heart and you are definitely not alone.
My father is unable to make decisions to take care of himself or not. My mother has medical power of attorney, which greatly helps. He is now doing things like having fits when he has to undergo tests. We have one coming up that I am attending to try to help keep him settled (in the hopes he will not act like a toddler in front of his own child).
Eventually my mother will not be able to continue to do this. They have made it very clear they do not plan to use a nursing home or assisted living. They live at their same home with too much land for them to take care of. It's a very hard situation.
In this case, I don't see how you can make someone seek treatment. I know for my father, we normally go in and speak to the dr w/out him and explain what the issue is, but if you cannot get them to go to the dr what good does it do?
I think you can offer assistance, and that is all you can do. You have to make it clear that you cannot be their care taker on your own, but that you are happy to pay for the dr, go along, etc. I think that is all you can do.
It's so hard. I am sorry, I feel like I just rambled through this post. I just want to say you are in my heart and you are definitely not alone.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Thank you hopeful4 for responding. Since my divorce, I have been living with my parents to save money to buy my own house. So that complicates things. I do pay their bills, help maintain the property, and give them spending money... so I guess it works for them. They refuse to downsize... and it's getting difficult for them.
Also, it's a bit concerning that the parent I'm talking about, my father, doesn't actually have a doctor. He plainly refuses to see one. His doctor, a family friend, died about 10 years ago. Since then, he's refused to find a different doctor. He was once hospitalized for a serious condition that needed immediate surgery but he walked straight out of the hospital and got on a long-distance flight for a vacation. When he got back, he was still in pain, and the doctors who saw him after his vacation say that the internal injury "healed" by growing into a cyst, which he refuses to operate.
Sometimes I wonder what I did in the past that means I now spend my entire adulthood watching people hurt themselves. I suppose this is one of those "let go and let god" situations. I did some googling... and one website said something like, "if your elderly parent is refusing any help, allow them to live as they please for a few days... eventually they will realize that not having meals isn't ideal and they will grudgingly accept help/be open to discussing assisted living." This sounds cruel, does it not?
Also, it's a bit concerning that the parent I'm talking about, my father, doesn't actually have a doctor. He plainly refuses to see one. His doctor, a family friend, died about 10 years ago. Since then, he's refused to find a different doctor. He was once hospitalized for a serious condition that needed immediate surgery but he walked straight out of the hospital and got on a long-distance flight for a vacation. When he got back, he was still in pain, and the doctors who saw him after his vacation say that the internal injury "healed" by growing into a cyst, which he refuses to operate.
Sometimes I wonder what I did in the past that means I now spend my entire adulthood watching people hurt themselves. I suppose this is one of those "let go and let god" situations. I did some googling... and one website said something like, "if your elderly parent is refusing any help, allow them to live as they please for a few days... eventually they will realize that not having meals isn't ideal and they will grudgingly accept help/be open to discussing assisted living." This sounds cruel, does it not?
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,144
I am sorry you are going through this. You have empathy because you made a generous offer to pay for his appointment. You can not control people and they have made an informed decision. We will be caretakers at some point in their lives whether it be 80 or 105. I was grieving for the loss of my mother. It was my desire to hold on to her as long as I could. To make her final arrangements. It was ultimately her decision to make. She decided not to have surgery and how to live out her last days. My mother refused assisted care until she had a big enough health scare to accept it. She said in her last days she knew going to the health care place was the best possible.
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Wareham, Mass
Posts: 7,067
This is a tough one, OK, and I sympathize and empathize.
I won't presume to speak to your situation, but I will share my thoughts about my own.
If my mother predeceases my addict sib, in whose house he lives, my other sib and I agree that we will make an effort to find him a nursing home, as that is about the only place he can go. He is too damaged by drink to function on his own.
We are not optimistic as he is an active drinker and I doubt any nursing home would take him.
We could dry him out and try to place him back in the sober house where he lived for a couple of years.
If he resists this, and he probably will, he is on his own.
he has made his choice. He has had multiple opportunities to turn his life around.
I don't believe that we owe family members caregiving rights, particularly when they have made detrimental health choices.
That being said, it sounds like the family member of which you speak has aging mental health issues, maybe some dementia, and is not going to make a good choices as a result.
Sometimes the only thing to do is to turn this over to a professional.
I would check the local elder care services to see if your parents can become their clients.
My mom became a client of our local elder care organization after a fall that landed her in the ER, and I cannot say enough good things about them.
I have been to her case manager several times with mom issues, and she has always been helpful and effective.
Good luck.
I won't presume to speak to your situation, but I will share my thoughts about my own.
If my mother predeceases my addict sib, in whose house he lives, my other sib and I agree that we will make an effort to find him a nursing home, as that is about the only place he can go. He is too damaged by drink to function on his own.
We are not optimistic as he is an active drinker and I doubt any nursing home would take him.
We could dry him out and try to place him back in the sober house where he lived for a couple of years.
If he resists this, and he probably will, he is on his own.
he has made his choice. He has had multiple opportunities to turn his life around.
I don't believe that we owe family members caregiving rights, particularly when they have made detrimental health choices.
That being said, it sounds like the family member of which you speak has aging mental health issues, maybe some dementia, and is not going to make a good choices as a result.
Sometimes the only thing to do is to turn this over to a professional.
I would check the local elder care services to see if your parents can become their clients.
My mom became a client of our local elder care organization after a fall that landed her in the ER, and I cannot say enough good things about them.
I have been to her case manager several times with mom issues, and she has always been helpful and effective.
Good luck.
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
I too was thinking it may end up taking a true emergency for your father and then once in the hospital he will not have a choice.
Living with them certainly makes it harder as I am sure they see you as a crutch. That is not a criticism, it is just reality as anyone would.
I hear you blaming yourself for this and I don't think it's your fault at all. As people age, their decision making skills decline. That is reality, and it's VERY common. See this for what it is and don't take it on your shoulders to accept the blame. That is toxic to your own mentality.
Big hugs friend. It's a process and it's a difficult one at that.
Living with them certainly makes it harder as I am sure they see you as a crutch. That is not a criticism, it is just reality as anyone would.
I hear you blaming yourself for this and I don't think it's your fault at all. As people age, their decision making skills decline. That is reality, and it's VERY common. See this for what it is and don't take it on your shoulders to accept the blame. That is toxic to your own mentality.
Big hugs friend. It's a process and it's a difficult one at that.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
I agree with everything said above. I will have to think about this... but I think it's true that they see me as a crutch. I'm not sure they have as many choices as they think they have. I will check out the elder care around here... I hope this doesn't become expensive.
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Wareham, Mass
Posts: 7,067
I would start with the local senior center or, if there is one, the Council on Aging.
There are resources out there.
Many of us are experiencing the issues associated with aging parents.
And we don't have to go it alone.
It would be great if you could get help for your parents before a medical emergency occurs.
There are resources out there.
Many of us are experiencing the issues associated with aging parents.
And we don't have to go it alone.
It would be great if you could get help for your parents before a medical emergency occurs.
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: maine
Posts: 1,545
You are in my prayers.
My neighbor tried in vain to get her dad to take his diabetes seriously. After he lost a toe, she tried to tell him he *didn't **have** to* lose a foot as well. Of course, he eventually did.
My neighbor tried in vain to get her dad to take his diabetes seriously. After he lost a toe, she tried to tell him he *didn't **have** to* lose a foot as well. Of course, he eventually did.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
My personal spin is that now my mom has "real" physical ailments after a lifetime of emotionally draining me. I had a much, much more dysfunctional relationship with my codie mom than I ever did with my addict father. So even if her needs are "real" now, it triggers me horrendously because giving & giving & giving still feels the same. (triggers also relate to any kind of memory lane trip - we rarely, if ever, agree on the stories or the emotions they bring.)
In my situation, my sister believes I'm just being selfish & not wanting to help mom out. Easy for her to say since her life experience with this woman is completely, 180 degrees different than mine has been. Also, my mom is fairly young for all of this neediness (mid 60's) so I'm looking at decades ahead of this & worse. It is a long, dark, endless well I already know I can never fill.
I do have empathy - but that's not what she wants. That would mean standing beside her & holding her hand & letting her know that she can survive this, that she isn't alone, that I have an understanding of the pain she feels & then moving to solutions. She wants sympathy - me feeling badly for her so that she can saturate in her discomfort - NO solutions, thankyouverymuch. Keep that on your side of the street fire - *I* can't/won't get better.
OTOH - at work we deal with transitioning clients into independent, assisted & memory care units often. A lot can be done ahead of time & there are often long waiting lists depending on the facility, whether it involves medicare planning, etc. We often refer clients to have a meeting with an attorney that specializes in elder law because they are experts on things like VA benefits, Medicare planning, etc.
In my situation, my sister believes I'm just being selfish & not wanting to help mom out. Easy for her to say since her life experience with this woman is completely, 180 degrees different than mine has been. Also, my mom is fairly young for all of this neediness (mid 60's) so I'm looking at decades ahead of this & worse. It is a long, dark, endless well I already know I can never fill.
I do have empathy - but that's not what she wants. That would mean standing beside her & holding her hand & letting her know that she can survive this, that she isn't alone, that I have an understanding of the pain she feels & then moving to solutions. She wants sympathy - me feeling badly for her so that she can saturate in her discomfort - NO solutions, thankyouverymuch. Keep that on your side of the street fire - *I* can't/won't get better.
OTOH - at work we deal with transitioning clients into independent, assisted & memory care units often. A lot can be done ahead of time & there are often long waiting lists depending on the facility, whether it involves medicare planning, etc. We often refer clients to have a meeting with an attorney that specializes in elder law because they are experts on things like VA benefits, Medicare planning, etc.
Life is good
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,036
Higher Power/God/Universe guidance is often illogical and very effective.
There are many paths to healing. Looking for God-signs, asking for guidance and clarity, learning to open my heart and become willing changes everything. Giving of myself can be a really good thing - simply gaining awareness of where this is positive momentum. Yesterday it was chairing a 12 step meeting, giving care and attention to my home, time to inquire about someone's day as I stopped for tea, asking about store policies and being grateful for them - being a grateful, kind customer.
"Thank you" is a powerful phrase.
Home can be many things. A region, a community, an apartment, a house or various other things. As I became willing to open my heart to more concepts of what my home looks like, more clarity and good keeps coming.
There are many paths to healing. Looking for God-signs, asking for guidance and clarity, learning to open my heart and become willing changes everything. Giving of myself can be a really good thing - simply gaining awareness of where this is positive momentum. Yesterday it was chairing a 12 step meeting, giving care and attention to my home, time to inquire about someone's day as I stopped for tea, asking about store policies and being grateful for them - being a grateful, kind customer.
"Thank you" is a powerful phrase.
Home can be many things. A region, a community, an apartment, a house or various other things. As I became willing to open my heart to more concepts of what my home looks like, more clarity and good keeps coming.
Life is good
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,036
Awareness of the trauma bonds I've had helps me see the dysfunction and emotional abuse in new perspectives. New actions of reaching out for help and support for myself, in safe places that understand this, strengthens my healing.
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 11,481
I don't have first-hand experience with this, but I did recently listen to "Being Mortal" by Atul Gawande. I can't say for sure if it will help you with your specific situation, but I know it gave me a number of new viewpoints and ideas that I think are pretty important.
One thing that struck me particularly was when Dr. Gawande talked about how we might discuss w/our parents whether they want this, that or the other thing done--feeding tube, DNR, etc.--but there is really no way we’re going to cover every single eventuality. He said that what is far more important than focusing on specific treatments, which people may or may not fully understand the implications of, is to determine what “quality of life” means to that individual.
He gave the example of one man who, when discussing end-of-life options, told his daughter that he’d be perfectly content to be alive if he was able to eat chocolate ice cream and watch football. The daughter was surprised by this, as it wasn’t what she would have expected her dad to see as an acceptable quality of life for himself.
Later, when her father was undergoing surgery and the surgeon came out to tell her that there were unforeseen major complications and she needed to make a decision as to whether and how to proceed, she started to panic. This wasn’t one of the specific scenarios they’d discussed; this wasn’t anything anyone had expected to happen! Oh, if only he’d told her what he’d want in this situation...and then she realized he HAD told her. She asked the surgeon, “if you proceed in this way, will my dad be able to eat chocolate ice cream and watch football when he recovers?” He thought a moment and then said “no, but if we do this other thing instead, that should be the outcome.” She said, “OK, then that is what I’d like you to do.” And she was able to feel that she’d done what her father wanted.
Dr. Gawande then talked about his end-of-life discussion w/his own father, who had a tremendously different idea about what would be an acceptable quality of life for HIM. There is no judgment presented here, simply the importance of not allowing our own assumptions about what constitutes an acceptable quality of life to color actions we may make on another person's behalf.
Again, as I say, I don’t have direct experience w/this, but the book may be helpful to you in finding a path that allows you to feel that you’re doing what is right for you as well as for the person you're attempting to help in that specific place and time.
One thing that struck me particularly was when Dr. Gawande talked about how we might discuss w/our parents whether they want this, that or the other thing done--feeding tube, DNR, etc.--but there is really no way we’re going to cover every single eventuality. He said that what is far more important than focusing on specific treatments, which people may or may not fully understand the implications of, is to determine what “quality of life” means to that individual.
He gave the example of one man who, when discussing end-of-life options, told his daughter that he’d be perfectly content to be alive if he was able to eat chocolate ice cream and watch football. The daughter was surprised by this, as it wasn’t what she would have expected her dad to see as an acceptable quality of life for himself.
Later, when her father was undergoing surgery and the surgeon came out to tell her that there were unforeseen major complications and she needed to make a decision as to whether and how to proceed, she started to panic. This wasn’t one of the specific scenarios they’d discussed; this wasn’t anything anyone had expected to happen! Oh, if only he’d told her what he’d want in this situation...and then she realized he HAD told her. She asked the surgeon, “if you proceed in this way, will my dad be able to eat chocolate ice cream and watch football when he recovers?” He thought a moment and then said “no, but if we do this other thing instead, that should be the outcome.” She said, “OK, then that is what I’d like you to do.” And she was able to feel that she’d done what her father wanted.
Dr. Gawande then talked about his end-of-life discussion w/his own father, who had a tremendously different idea about what would be an acceptable quality of life for HIM. There is no judgment presented here, simply the importance of not allowing our own assumptions about what constitutes an acceptable quality of life to color actions we may make on another person's behalf.
Again, as I say, I don’t have direct experience w/this, but the book may be helpful to you in finding a path that allows you to feel that you’re doing what is right for you as well as for the person you're attempting to help in that specific place and time.
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Hi all I know where OpheliaKatz ... is coming from.. I don't do a lot in public anymore Eddie Lee has to pull me to go shopping.. really don't like the public or the shopping but it has to be done.. so .. trying to figure out how to say what I saw in a store and not seem like a terrible person..
but I did and went to staff and nothing happened and I had to keep trying to avoid the area of the view and finally had to go to a high pitched BABE WHERE ARE YOU to have Eddie Lee find me hid me a bit and get me out to the car... 9 years of child protection will jade you on places of public and shopping or food.. why because no matter what there is just that one bit of time that all the red flags go up and your tummy goes in a knot and you are pulled. this is my job no babe that was 1996 to 2008 you don't do that anymore. ok God tell me don't show me who is responsible please and there is no answer and the little lady is so afraid that the big cat in me can smell her fear... god you are listening right... no he is not. for he has trouble to day with so many children and people of special care that are being harmed and are just being found today after so many years of the body hidden. ok iam going in circles but I do know what is going around in OpheliaKatz heart... hugs kiddo from an old lady clown a sad lady clown a Mom that just paces.. ardy
but I did and went to staff and nothing happened and I had to keep trying to avoid the area of the view and finally had to go to a high pitched BABE WHERE ARE YOU to have Eddie Lee find me hid me a bit and get me out to the car... 9 years of child protection will jade you on places of public and shopping or food.. why because no matter what there is just that one bit of time that all the red flags go up and your tummy goes in a knot and you are pulled. this is my job no babe that was 1996 to 2008 you don't do that anymore. ok God tell me don't show me who is responsible please and there is no answer and the little lady is so afraid that the big cat in me can smell her fear... god you are listening right... no he is not. for he has trouble to day with so many children and people of special care that are being harmed and are just being found today after so many years of the body hidden. ok iam going in circles but I do know what is going around in OpheliaKatz heart... hugs kiddo from an old lady clown a sad lady clown a Mom that just paces.. ardy
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Join Date: Nov 2016
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Originally Posted by OpheliaKatz 
and I will spend my dotage alone, being eaten alive by domestic cats.
I haven't read all the responses but I hear you on the empathy and the funny thing is I was reading an article about this - I think it was just yesterday.
It mentioned detachment actually and how that relates to empathy (I was actually researching empathy).
It's entirely possible that you can reduce your empathy by detaching. That can go either way, in the article I was reading the issue addressed was that by detaching you don't just let go of the other person's issues, you can also start to detach from your own feelings and start to ignore your own hurts.
I can see how this can also lead where you are saying, so I think it's something to be mindful of for sure.
As for your relative, that's tricky. I 100 percent agree that they get to make their own choices, when it is something that is so easy to be addressed, that's tough. I don't think I would let it go. Again, tough one. Can people live without assisted living and nursing care, absolutely. I don't think it's as rare as it might seem. There are people who can pop in and help with heavy cleaning etc. Sometimes moving in to an adult/older adult living complex is helpful, one that does offer some care IF requested only.
I would certainly be discussing this with siblings though, just because you are single doesn't mean you need be any more responsible than anyone else in your family group.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Atul Gawande. Okay. Sounds like something I should read. I should ask what he thinks "quality of life" means.
Now why is this scenario SO familiar? It must be because very similar things have happened here.
Other siblings don't want to deal with this parent. Why? Because he starts lecturing them about how he knows how to cure all ailments with positive thoughts or Windex (for example). If you ask him to get real, even in the most gentle way possible, he screams, "I'm not spending my hard earned money on some quack who's going to tell me that I'm going to die! I'm OLD, I'm supposed to die!"
With both my parents, we've been at the beginning stages of gradual decline for years now. They forget to lock doors. They don't remember their phone numbers. They have some seemingly minor health issues that could be symptoms of something bigger. So if we deal with these minor issues that keep coming up, my father will be able to live for another 10, 15 years to apply as much Windex to his body as he likes. If he manages his affairs NOW, his offspring won't have to deal with it when he's totally incompetent (instead of partially).
There's also something in this that's about me. The only family I really have right now are my parents... and it may be selfish but I want them to live as long as possible in as healthy a way as possible.
Firesprite, I totally understand the problem you have with your codie mom who refuses to take care of herself. My father is not going to want sympathy. But his offspring ALWAYS have to step in to "fix" his mistakes because it's not just about him. My parents are in a relationship where he's been dominating the wheelhouse for so long, if he had to give it up, my mother would not know how to navigate the ship. So he's just going to be there until he runs into an iceberg.
Originally Posted by velma929
My neighbor tried in vain to get her dad to take his diabetes seriously. After he lost a toe, she tried to tell him he *didn't **have** to* lose a foot as well. Of course, he eventually did.
Other siblings don't want to deal with this parent. Why? Because he starts lecturing them about how he knows how to cure all ailments with positive thoughts or Windex (for example). If you ask him to get real, even in the most gentle way possible, he screams, "I'm not spending my hard earned money on some quack who's going to tell me that I'm going to die! I'm OLD, I'm supposed to die!"
With both my parents, we've been at the beginning stages of gradual decline for years now. They forget to lock doors. They don't remember their phone numbers. They have some seemingly minor health issues that could be symptoms of something bigger. So if we deal with these minor issues that keep coming up, my father will be able to live for another 10, 15 years to apply as much Windex to his body as he likes. If he manages his affairs NOW, his offspring won't have to deal with it when he's totally incompetent (instead of partially).
There's also something in this that's about me. The only family I really have right now are my parents... and it may be selfish but I want them to live as long as possible in as healthy a way as possible.
Firesprite, I totally understand the problem you have with your codie mom who refuses to take care of herself. My father is not going to want sympathy. But his offspring ALWAYS have to step in to "fix" his mistakes because it's not just about him. My parents are in a relationship where he's been dominating the wheelhouse for so long, if he had to give it up, my mother would not know how to navigate the ship. So he's just going to be there until he runs into an iceberg.
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Wareham, Mass
Posts: 7,067
Yep, they are set in their ways.
Sometimes those ways are a bit loony.
In my own family, my mother has become very me-centered, not unexpected but often frustrating.
I had a huge fight with both mom and sib a few weeks back regarding 1) his disrespectful behavior toward mom's housekeeper, who eventually left our employ, and 2) my mother's defense of my sib's bad behavior.
At that time, I recognized that I really needed, for my own serenity and sanity, to step away.
And I have.
(Talked about this in an earlier post, so forgive the repetition.)
Sometimes we just have to take a step back.
It's the only way to stay sane.
Both mother and mil are still living independently, but need help, much like your parents.
I think that if it is possible to keep them safely in their home, and they want to stay there, it's best to do so, tho it means help has to come in different forms.
But it doesn't all have to come from you. There are resources. You simply need to find them.
Expect resistance on this from your parents. They will dislike the intrusion of caregivers, housekeepers, etc, should it come to that.
But.... maybe they will surprise you.
My mil just returned to her apartment after a month in physical rehab after a fall.
She is now using her walker, something she mightily resisted before falling.
And she has agreed to wear a LifeAlert unit, also something she didn't want to do.
She does NOT want to have to go back to rehab, so we are shamelessly using that particular carrot to get her to do her exercises.
I know, it's very wrong of us to trade on that feeling, but if it helps her physically and makes her less of a fall risk, then the end justifies the means.
Sometimes those ways are a bit loony.
In my own family, my mother has become very me-centered, not unexpected but often frustrating.
I had a huge fight with both mom and sib a few weeks back regarding 1) his disrespectful behavior toward mom's housekeeper, who eventually left our employ, and 2) my mother's defense of my sib's bad behavior.
At that time, I recognized that I really needed, for my own serenity and sanity, to step away.
And I have.
(Talked about this in an earlier post, so forgive the repetition.)
Sometimes we just have to take a step back.
It's the only way to stay sane.
Both mother and mil are still living independently, but need help, much like your parents.
I think that if it is possible to keep them safely in their home, and they want to stay there, it's best to do so, tho it means help has to come in different forms.
But it doesn't all have to come from you. There are resources. You simply need to find them.
Expect resistance on this from your parents. They will dislike the intrusion of caregivers, housekeepers, etc, should it come to that.
But.... maybe they will surprise you.
My mil just returned to her apartment after a month in physical rehab after a fall.
She is now using her walker, something she mightily resisted before falling.
And she has agreed to wear a LifeAlert unit, also something she didn't want to do.
She does NOT want to have to go back to rehab, so we are shamelessly using that particular carrot to get her to do her exercises.
I know, it's very wrong of us to trade on that feeling, but if it helps her physically and makes her less of a fall risk, then the end justifies the means.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,609
I guess, really, the question is, are they thinking correctly? Has your Dad always been the "Windex" guy or is this a new approach that doesn't seem - normal.
Now if this is odd behaviour for him (which it doesn't sound like it is), then I wouldn't press the matter. I do realize I contradicted myself above - so in thinking about it I'm correcting myself!
If he's always been the Windex guy, well perhaps just let him be. Even if that will somewhere down the line make your life messier and even if it doesn't do his health any good, that goes back to the - your own side of the street thing I think.
Parents aren't children and I think we do them a disservice by treating them like they are. They still have a right to make their own decisions as they see fit.
Now if this is odd behaviour for him (which it doesn't sound like it is), then I wouldn't press the matter. I do realize I contradicted myself above - so in thinking about it I'm correcting myself!
If he's always been the Windex guy, well perhaps just let him be. Even if that will somewhere down the line make your life messier and even if it doesn't do his health any good, that goes back to the - your own side of the street thing I think.
Parents aren't children and I think we do them a disservice by treating them like they are. They still have a right to make their own decisions as they see fit.
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast
Posts: 1,235
I second honeypig's recommendation. Atul Gawande's book helped me tremendously when I was trying to make sense of my parents' situation.
It was interesting to see how my mom and dad had very different needs when it came to assistance when it came to their cancer treatments. My mom wanted me at all her appointments, whereas my dad wanted nothing more than for me to scram. I had to once convince my dad there was no WAY he was going to pick up his grandchildren after school - he was still in the recovery room tripping on painkillers!
Gawande's book spends a lot of time discussing "quality of life." In my mind, it basically comes down to this - it's up to the individual to define what quality of life actually means. You run into trouble when you don't take the time to define it for yourself, and for many people, they don't want to go through the exercise because it just seems way too morbid.
I know for my dad, he treasures his independence, and he sure as hell doesn't want to be treated as a dummy. He wants to constantly challenge his physical capabilities, because he doesn't want to lose the capabilities he has. So that means doing, IMHO, extremely dumb stuff like climbing trees to chop them down. He's eighty. Climbing trees! WTF!
However, I know how much this means to him. I also know that my concern, in a weird way, is irrelevant. He's going to decline. He's going to die. I can waste my time fighting over something he is determined to do, or I can accept the fact that one day I will most likely get a phone call saying he's fallen off the roof (yes, he's done that too.). One choice insults his dignity and the other accepts who he is.
My dad isn't sure of what will happen if he gets cancer again. He's not certain that he wants to undergo chemo one more time. I know if that happens, there will be a barrage of relatives begging me to convince him otherwise. But there are other ways to take care of my father. If I can help him preserve his dignity, and help him be the person he strives to be each day -independent, stubborn, and strong - that counts too in my book.
THAT said, I can say that the expectation that you will provide all the assistance while your parents live "independently" is a vastly unrealistic one. It is also a recipe for burnout and resentment, and if your siblings aren't willing to acknowledge that fact they are being delusional. In addition, if something happens to you, (ex. an accident), it is way better to figure out the game plan ahead of time. Is there any way that a neutral third party, such as a geriatric case manager, can help your family come up with a plan?
This stuff ain't easy. Sigh.
It was interesting to see how my mom and dad had very different needs when it came to assistance when it came to their cancer treatments. My mom wanted me at all her appointments, whereas my dad wanted nothing more than for me to scram. I had to once convince my dad there was no WAY he was going to pick up his grandchildren after school - he was still in the recovery room tripping on painkillers!
I should ask what he thinks "quality of life" means.
I know for my dad, he treasures his independence, and he sure as hell doesn't want to be treated as a dummy. He wants to constantly challenge his physical capabilities, because he doesn't want to lose the capabilities he has. So that means doing, IMHO, extremely dumb stuff like climbing trees to chop them down. He's eighty. Climbing trees! WTF!
However, I know how much this means to him. I also know that my concern, in a weird way, is irrelevant. He's going to decline. He's going to die. I can waste my time fighting over something he is determined to do, or I can accept the fact that one day I will most likely get a phone call saying he's fallen off the roof (yes, he's done that too.). One choice insults his dignity and the other accepts who he is.
My dad isn't sure of what will happen if he gets cancer again. He's not certain that he wants to undergo chemo one more time. I know if that happens, there will be a barrage of relatives begging me to convince him otherwise. But there are other ways to take care of my father. If I can help him preserve his dignity, and help him be the person he strives to be each day -independent, stubborn, and strong - that counts too in my book.
THAT said, I can say that the expectation that you will provide all the assistance while your parents live "independently" is a vastly unrealistic one. It is also a recipe for burnout and resentment, and if your siblings aren't willing to acknowledge that fact they are being delusional. In addition, if something happens to you, (ex. an accident), it is way better to figure out the game plan ahead of time. Is there any way that a neutral third party, such as a geriatric case manager, can help your family come up with a plan?
This stuff ain't easy. Sigh.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
He's always been a Windex sort of guy, but it's got worse as he's become older. Is he thinking correctly? No, but also, for him, that's "normal". It just has become worse as he's got older. Before, when he was younger, his way of life was eccentric. Now it's a little bit dangerous.
But you have a point. This is going to be another one of those things I can't control.
I think the reason that my siblings are so reluctant to help is because they are facing similar problems with their in-laws and no one has infinite resources. I have no in-laws... anymore. But you're right, at some point there will be a reality check for everyone involved. I also fear the day someone falls off a roof because their balance isn't as good at 80 as it was at 30.
I agree that I will need professional back up... just in case. It's difficult to just step back and watch things happen. Thanks everyone for replying.
But you have a point. This is going to be another one of those things I can't control.
I think the reason that my siblings are so reluctant to help is because they are facing similar problems with their in-laws and no one has infinite resources. I have no in-laws... anymore. But you're right, at some point there will be a reality check for everyone involved. I also fear the day someone falls off a roof because their balance isn't as good at 80 as it was at 30.
I agree that I will need professional back up... just in case. It's difficult to just step back and watch things happen. Thanks everyone for replying.
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