Glenjo99

Was browsing the forum and was looking at someone's thread that posted earlier in the year. Her bf had gone into rehab and was distant after coming out, she asked for advice and eventually it turned out he dumped her anyway, even though she didn't drink etc. I thought, wow how many people does this happen to! And the irony of the alcoholic then doing all the things you were asking them to do for so long but now they don't want you as part of it. She was struggling to understand as I have been earlier on how they can just dump someone so quickly after all the promises, always been there etc. I was really relating, it's so unfair and it is.

Now that I'm further down the line of course I know they will put the alcohol/drugs ahead of everything. Being dumped by them as he told me was to avoid any triggers during his recovery so can accept that now (although have moments where I think this was convenient as was no tiny hint of apology).

Then I realised in all my progress in detaching I still, rock around the karpman drama triangle. The one codependents use so much, Rescue, Persecute, Victim.

The Persecutor – We all know the persecutor. The go-to strategies are often controlling, blaming, and criticizing. In arguments, he or she will put you down and try to shame you into forgiveness. The persecutor’s refrain? “It’s all your fault.”

The stance of the victim is “poor me!” Victims see themselves as victimized, oppressed, powerless, helpless, hopeless, dejected, and ashamed, and come across as “super-sensitive,” wanting kid glove treatment from others. They can deny any responsibility for their negative circumstances and deny possession of the power to change those circumstances.

So I can I still have times of persecutor and victim where he is concerned. Just reading others threads, which I find informative, can trigger this in me. Good to know so I can try snap out of the victim or persecutor role.

Pathwaytofree

Thank you for posting this.

I have a question. What if the person who sees themselves as a lot of things you mentioned above under "victim" are actually true? This makes it sound like the victim purposely wants to be a victim. How the heck is the victim supposed to get out of this stance, if the catch-22 is that she is victimized? What if the cycle started in childhood where they were indeed a victim, and as much as she wanted to get out of that predicament, she couldn't?

I just don't like how this description implies that the victim WANTS to be in the role of victim. I wanted anything BUT. I never wanted phony "poor PTF" sympathy from people. I wanted someone to tell me how the f*ck to not be a victim by toxic crazy people. I needed someone to help me find my inner strength, because I was brainwashed to believe it did not exist. I hated every f*cking second of being a victim, and wanted OUT. But I was too afraid to take any advice given me. And I was too depressed or anxious to process advice that was given to me.

If someone was treating me like crap, how was I responsible?
If a person from from early on was made to feel powerless over and over, until it became their default recording in their head, how are they supposed to all of a sudden just believe that they have power to change their circumstances?

I'm not a victim anymore, but it's taken a long time to get here. I needed someone to first tell me that it's them, not me. And someone to help me focus on how I can change, instead of constantly seeking validation and reassurance about abusive people in my life.

I wanted stuff to go right in my life. I didn't understand why certain people kept treating me in certain ways, or why I seemed to always be a magnet for toxic people. I wanted peace, contentment, and for toxic people to stay the f*ck away from me. I wanted to stop letting other people effect my inner peace. I wanted tools to use to be strong, grow, and learn how to stay healthy despite being around toxic people.

I loathed being a part of my family's triangle and wanted nothing more than to get the f*ck out of it and lead a normal life. Whenever they try to pull me back in (happening currently actually) it pisses me off. I won't stand for it anymore, family or not. I will stay grounded in my truth.

They made me feel weak because they saw my strength and it scared them.

I am not a victim. Nor was I a victim on purpose or enjoyed a millisecond of my role. I am a survivor of a bunch of crazy abusive toxic people who would've cracked at the seams if they did 1/100000000th of work in self-awareness, therapy and recovery that I have done.

This just all pisses me off so much.

dandylion

Pathwaytofree…...The way I understand this. is.....I don't think that it is about BLAMING the victim.....just to explain how it can come about.
I think that most of the time, it comes about without conscious awareness....I think that it can start off with the best of intentions, for the rescuer...but, gets all turned around, down the road....

AutumnMama

Yeah I agree, throwing a negative connotation on being a "victim" when the person had no control over whether or not they were being abused is a slippery slope.

I mean, the point is to try to break yourself out of that mindset, so I get it... but it can still be confusing.

It's hard because in other types of recovery, there is an obvious action that you're trying to stop doing (drinking, drugs, gambling). There is a level of denial, but there was always a choice to initially start doing whatever destructive thing turned into an addition. With codependency, or dealing with the effects of being an ACoA, there was never a choice to start doing whatever we need to currently stop doing. Does that make any sense? Whatever led to us needing to be in recovery is typically something that was done TO us and not something we made the conscious decision to do to ourselves.

I gather that a lot of other 12-step groups focus a lot on owning up to your crap, which in general is stuff you did wrong to other people. Which can carry a lot of guilt with it. I get a little confused when that type of discussion is had here because then, in my mind, I'm searching for things I'm doing wrong to other people--but I can't find any. But I think what you're really searching for are things you're doing wrong to YOURSELF. And with that I'm not sure guilt is an appropriate feeling.

Glenjo99

Yes my understanding of it is, it's not to blame the victim, merely bringing awareness to the fact that that's what people feel in that situation, which can be unconscious for most part .

For example lots of my family are codependent. Only last week my mother offered to give me something ( I didn't know she was expecting something back at the time, but this wasn't stated). So she gave me the thing, rescued, then today asked me to do something in return for it (so wasn't given condition free and when I said I couldn't she felt persecuted). After that she tells everyone, why does this always happen to me (victim). She does this unconsciously I believe for most part so not blaming her. Just aware of how she behaves. Always gives with intention to receive something back or get something out of it, which is not the reason to give anything.

Pathwaytofree

Thank you, everyone. I apologize for getting upset in my post. It struck a very raw nerve. I'm having a challenging week due to some family stuff.

I greatly appreciate your comments on victimization. I always thought that therapists and people thought we *wanted* to be victims. I've mentioned my former AA group many times here. My former sponsor would constantly say that I "chose" to be a victim, and my self-seeking behavior was "self-pity'' for attention. She completely misperceived my situation. The truth was, if I did talk about something abusive my family did, I was seeking help out of the pain. Because when a person is bleeding, they can't treat the wound themselves. But I didn't know I had a choice to not let their behavior and words effect me. I cared too much and just wanted love and acceptance. If I didn't care if wouldn't have hurt so much.

I never wanted to be a victim, or asked to be a victim, or wanted that role to perpetuate during my adult life. AA did teach me that how people treat you is not personal. My psychiatrist said the same thing. That does help to remember and makes me feel less of a victim.

Fortunately I have an extremely competent therapist and psychiatrist, even if sometimes I worry they don't get me, because I have a lot of trouble verbalizing stuff. But I trust them and I have to be ok with that.

My therapist recently taught me "the rock" method. I was in absolute awe of it. I think someone else on SR mentioned it as the "gray rock method". She said when a person with BPD in my (co-dependent) family starts in with the push-pull, to be like a rock and not allow them to push or pull me. I love that. I hadn't even realized what they were doing was "push pull". I just always knew to didn't seem normal.

Fortunately with my new mindfulness tool, I was able to for the most part be calm and observe my reactions--verbally and emotionally--with two of these family members recently. I also didn't go into victim mode after the fact, although my OCD took over a little bit in getting stuck on the stuff they said, instead of hanging up the phone and saying "Whatever" or "There they go again." I have to remember to not let them effect me. It's my choice to not let them effect me.

I always felt so invisible, small, and powerless by them. I would get angry because I didn't understand why they kept treating me this way, or why stuff in my external world kept happening. It was like I was a pissed off victim, because I didn't want that role that was forced upon me.

Glenjo99 I am sorry your mother is like that. That is awful. My therapist/psychiatrist would likely say that we have to let go of what others are saying about us (even family). My previous therapist was such a kind man with gentle eyes. He would share some things with me and I think his reasoning was so that I knew he truly understood where I was coming from. At his father's funeral, everyone treated him like sh*t because the father would tell everyone what a bad son he was. He wasn't. The truth was, his father was a bad father, but was good at putting up a front in public. I'm sure it was difficult for him at the time, but he had to stand in his truth.

People like this are so good at portraying themselves to the outside world the way they want to be seen. I once had a friend who met my parents and described them as "such a cute, nice, old Jewish couple." I wanted to gag. It completely invalidated for me the little bit I had told her about my family charades, and the truth that I knew, experienced, and witnessed front and center.

Regarding your mother--I think it is passive aggressive behavior to give something for the motive to receive something in return. It's a controlling manipulative way to get something she wants; to have things her way. To buy love. That's not fair to you. And you have every right to say "no". If she tries to make you feel guilty, that's on HER and not you. It is not your role in life to do things so you don't feel guilty. It's your mother's decision to do things like that. It's her choice. She is responsible for how she treats you and for own feelings. We are not responsible for someone else's feelings (I edited to add that last part--I just remembered it was something else my psychiatrist said that is extremely helpful).

My very awesome psychiatrist said to me, "You can take responsibility for how they make you feel. Taking responsibility for how someone makes you feel gives you a sense of control and takes you away from being a victim." So I plan on working on this with my therapist. What's that saying from The Wizard of Oz? "You had the power all along, my dear." I realized that if I continue to let them upset me, they win. If I stop letting their behavior get to me or internalizing it, then I will have freedom to tear off the Victim label once and for all.

Apologies for the long post. I'm having difficulty condensing my thoughts.

Edit to add: I just realized something else. My mother had lied about something to one of my siblings about me. It was something relatively small, but it's part of how she loves to be puppeteer with her children, say one thing to one of us and something opposite to the other, and part of the latest triangulation and drama she so loves to stir up.

This time, instead of thinking "Why does my mother always lie to me?!" (this was small, but there have been many big things she's lied to me or about me), I thought "My mother is lying." It was more factual. I didn't take it personally, or feel like a victim that she was lying to me, and that my other sister would think I was the one lying. It was rather freeing. And when I shared this with my therapist, she said something like "Just let it be. Don't mention to your siblings that what mom said was a lie." I guess that is a way to make me less of a victim. To just let mom lie if she wants to, and not to let it effect me.

I hope my post helps anyone who is forced into the role of victim in the triangulation and wants to get the f*ck out. Be strong and stand in your truth ALWAYS. Something else my previous therapist used to say (I'm paraphrasing) "I'll give you the validation you need, but one day you're going to have to learn how to validate YOURSELF." His validation was a helpful building block for me and I am finally self-validating. If only society would be an easier place to do that, but I have to let that go, too, because it doesn't matter.

Glenjo99

Great post, and thanks for the supportive words. I agree my mother is passive aggressiveness and codependent. She's trying it more do since I've been detaching from them lately lol.

My mantra for the last couple of months has been "We are not responsible for someone else's feelings". The day I read that in melody beattie book "codependent no more" a fire lit inside me. I was doing that all my life! Taking on and feeling responsible for others feelings and behaviours. No more!!

Pathwaytofree

It helps me know that others understand where I was coming from. I never realized that I had a choice to not have that big "V" for victim tattooed across my back so to speak.

Yes that makes a lot of sense! Thanks for spelling this out. Denial is an interesting topic. For me the denial was there because the compulsion to do my addiction was so strong. It was as if it was a separate entity from me. Denial was also there because I thought my reactions and emotions were just a part of me that I was unable to ever change. If I accepted it, the shame and guilt would magnify and I could hardly live with the amount of shame and guilt I already felt. Yes there is a "choice" before we start engaging in the addiction, but it's not a logical, rational, slow-moving sort of choice. It's not thought through. For me it was more of a compulsion or an immediate reaction. It did not feel like a choice. Now, I have the tool to "pause" in between thought and action.

Yes you bring up such a good point, and my psychiatrist said something about that. When children are in those sorts of situations, there is no choice because we're dependent. That being said, it's up to us to break it once we are no longer dependent. I know even it makes someone angry that I'm not playing their game anymore and allowing myself to be forced into victimization, it's my responsibility to do what I need to do to care for myself, versus doing something to avoid someone (or someones) who I used to be dependent on, getting angry or rageful. If my tearing myself away from the victim role pisses people off because I'm upsetting the apple cart, too f*cking bad.

I greatly appreciate this so much. It was done TO us when we were children but now as adults we can make the conscious decision to not let it perpetuate.

Speaking for myself, as I look back on my AA step 4-9 work, there was tremendous focus on harms I did to others. My sponsor would sort of twist things around to see normal behavior as "harms'' as if she was following a script. Although I made a lot of amends for things that weren't true harms persay, I really only had one big amends and living amends (I would often take my anger out on others, without meaning to, because I was so pissed at being a victim, and then harm myself with the guilt and shame over doing that.) AA doesn't want us to beat ourselves up, though. Then again, that was what was "said" versus how my sponsors wanted me to "be". I wasn't supposed to feel guilt or remorse because then I couldn't be of service to others. Feeling guilty, shame or remorse was "self-centered", was what my AA sponsor taught me.

I found that many times I harmed myself by beating myself up, self-fulfilling prophecy, etc., then harming others. But not always. One of the people helping me with my 5th step got angry with me because as a child I didn't harm anyone but I did harm myself emotionally if that makes sense. She kept screaming at me to tell her how I harmed others.

That wasn't what was taught to me in AA. The harm I was doing to myself was the drinking and living in selfish self-centered guilt, fear, remorse, shame, etc.

No one told me I was harming myself by continuing to deal with sick people. They wanted me to be nice to them, be loving, kind, patient and tolerant. Um, no. That sort of thing continued to harm me.

I realize now that continuing to allow other people to blame me for their feelings, physical ailments, or whatever, sh*t on me, treat me cruelly, or abusively, is harming me. Thank god my therapist and psychiatrist fixed the harm AA did to me. I don't have to stand for any of that anymore or be held responsible for other people's feelings. I don't have to allow them to force me into victim role to make them feel okay about themselves. I was constantly told to "be nice" when around these abusive crazy toxic people. No one ever said to "be nice" to PTF in AA. And if I mentioned something they did or said, I was told "what you see in others is something you see in yourself." Um, really? Would you say that to a woman whose husband was beating her up and she was describing what he was like? There's no difference there. Both are just as terrorizing.

Pathwaytofree

I'm happy I could help. :-) I like to pass along wisdom that was given to me.

The more we detach, the worse they push-pull until eventually the behavior is distinguished. I think. But don't be surprised if she tries again and comes at you from different angles. Be a rock. Or a boulder, lol. I like that visual actually. :-)

That is such a great mantra. Don't believe it when she tells you that you are. You're not. It's her choice to feel the way she does.

I have to read this again. I skimmed it years ago, but I don't think I was ready to see its truth.

I also took on being responsible for other people's feelings and behaviors my entire life, too, from childhood. I hope I don't out my anonymity here, but I'll just share a few things I was told I was responsible for. I'll change minor details to not out myself:

1)According to one of my siblings, when I was very young, my dad was in the kitchen cleaning some fish. I was so happy to see him, that I ran over to him. He didn't want me to get hurt, and so he pointed the knife down and hurt his leg. He has a limp and a scar and it's my fault.

2) According to same sibling, I caused my father's heart disease because of all the stress I caused him. (I didn't cause him any stress, he caused it himself. I was a very good daughter but my mother complained about me & lied about me to get my father's attention, and to get my father to think badly of me. She was jealous.) I wasn't alcoholic while living with them and I was a very high bottom closet drinker later in life. It didn't effect them at all. I was a good kid. Just not in their eyes.)

3) My mother blamed me for my sibling failing out of college, because I "called her too much" and "wrote her too many letters." She also threatened me if I told anyone in the family the truth that she failed out.

4) My mother blamed me for calling her at work in 3rd grade when I had a stomach ache, but then I felt better when she picked me up (I was happy to see her) and how much money it was costing her to take me to the doctor.

5) My mother went into an awful rage at me one morning when I was about 20 years old over something minor in the car as she was driving me to work. (I wasn't allowed to have my own car). She got a speeding ticket and raged at me and blamed me for it.

6) My mother blamed me for how much my wedding cost, when it wasn't even a wedding that I wanted. We wanted to elope but I knew they'd be furious with us, because what would their friends think? Our wedding was soley for them to show off to their friends/family. It had nothing to do with us. And she was lying when she made that comment, because when my sibling told me she said that, and I asked my mother why she said it, she then said, "I never said that.

7) My mother constantly blamed me for raging at me when I was a child. Her rages were my fault, because I didn't sit still, I didn't listen, I didn't talk in the tone of voice she wanted me to talk in, I didn't do do whatever it was that she wanted me to do perfectly. I didn't make her look like a good mother.

8) It was my fault that I made the decision to date an abusive boyfriend and all the stress it caused my family.

9) It was my fault for being "depressed" (and anorexic) because I had nothing to be "depressed" about because I was so fortunate to have a mother who did so much for me, so much more than other mothers.

10) It was my fault that I couldn't get to sleep before the first day of school and my fault that I was anxious. I was causing my parents to lose sleep, and that was bad because they had to go to work.

11) It was my fault for being bullied because I wasn't ignoring them, and I was too sensitive. (When you're a child victim at home, bullies smell it a mile away and you become easy prey).

12) It was my fault I wasn't an A student which meant that people would think they were bad parents.

13) It was my fault that my mother was embarrassed when she didn't know what I did for a living and someone asked her. Truth is, she never gave a sh*t about me, never cared to know anything about me, and I can't think of one single time on the phone she even bothered to ask what was new, how are you, etc.

I wasn't allowed to have my own feelings. It was my responsibility if my parents had negative feelings, it was my responsibility to listen to them go off in raging tirades, or listen to them go off on long boasting and bragging speeches, and I had to do whatever it was they needed to have their precious little fragile egos stroked, from a young age. It was my fault if they couldn't handle my feelings--I was told often "LOOK AT WHAT YOU'RE DOING TO ME!!!" if I just tried to verbalize my feelings. They didn't want to have to deal with my feelings.

I could go on but I'm drained and will stop here.

Pathwaytofree

Sorry everyone I didn't intend to monopolize this thread. The OP was really excellent. I hope we can get back on track with that.

trailmix

Pathway, you might find this video interesting

OpheliaKatz

I am going to press a whole lot of "thanks" buttons when I have time because I'm glad this topic is being discussed, and I agree with a lot of the things said here. In my experience, I have had so many people tell me to shift my boundaries to accommodate another person's selfish, abusive, addict behavior, I felt really trapped. I also often think that codependency is treated a bit like addiction, the idea being that you put yourself in that situation rather than you were manipulated into the situation. I spent so long being squashed by another person's ego that I struggle with feeling okay now... . I'm not saying that you can't get addicted to a cycle -- there was a post earlier about an intermittent chicken -- you just keep trying and trying, you get addicted to hope; but you didn't get addicted the same way that the addict got addicted (does that make sense?)

Pathway, when I read your emotional response, I sort of really "got" it. I understood where you were coming from. Thank you for writing that.

Regarding the family thing... I have to say that since I removed the addict from my life, that my relationship with my family, which I thought was toxic, improved 100%. It took a while for them to trust me again, but I earned it, and I now have a family again. I think I'm working on things, internally, learning to forgive them, learning how to say "no", how to let things go. It helps to let things go. But in my situation, my addict was abusive, he was very manipulative, I become more and more isolated from people, including my immediate family the longer I was with him. I'm still trying to repair damage.

The persecutor, victim, rescuer triangle is taught in domestic violence training too. I see the triangle as... it's like you get trapped in a car with someone and they are driving around in circles cause there is no brake. Sometimes they fall asleep and you have to take the wheel, so you are driving. You may not even want to be driving, you do it because you don't want to die. But until you jump out of the moving car and take that risk, you're probably going to drive in circles until you both starve to death (it's a special car that doesn't run out of gas).

Glenjo99

A very special car that doesn't run out of gas. I ran out of all energy in the end, friends family have since told me I looked tired and worn when I was in contact with him, I had no concept of healthy boundaries so was there for him 24/7. When I first read about the karpman triangle in "codependent no more", it made complete sense. Not only in my ex addicts situation but even with family members. I too became quite isolated, started not going out so I could take his calls, he would suggest I not go places either so he could have me at his Beck and call. Im still not going out like as much as i used to 4 months on but i trust it will come. I now take full responsibility for that as a Codependent, not having boundaries but at the time it all blew up, I thought he was a jerk for treating me like that, none of my needs were met.

Best thing about it now for me is, keeping this triangle in my mind, I am so much more aware that now I have this new knowledge, I cant get away with being a persecutor or victim again! The cat is out of the bag, so if I rescue or fix again......I am completely responsible.

fightingfair

I also started to isolate myself and look very careworn. In addition, I began to make up all sorts of excuses about not going places with the undertone that I thought he would need me at home (subconsciously was it more that I needed to keep an eye on him?). So it was on me too. I just wasn't ready to throw myself out of the special car.

BTW, my skin looks amazing the past couple of days - I think a good cry cleared the complexion and last night I slept a solid 8 hours and woke up three minutes before the alarm! It's so interesting how our mental health really ages us quickly in a way that can be physically perceived.

Glenjo99

Careworn. What a great word. Worn from caring. Glad you got a good night sleep your body needs it. Crying has become second nature for me in the last few months. Comes from out of nowhere and when I least expect it, still! It's grief.

Pathwaytofree

Thank you for the video, Trailmix. I hadn't realized all the things listed here were gaslighting. I thought gaslighting was when family members talked badly about one family member to the rest of the family.