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Originally Posted by dandylion 
Awal.....suppose you do find his stash and place it on a table , in front of him...and say...."There, I found you were hiding a bottle and drinking from it, so you didn't fool me, on bit."......exactly, what do you expect will happen, at that point?
There is, also, the option of telling him straight to his face, when he is sober.....
"You haven't fooled me--I know that you are drinking a lot more than your are admitting to me. I know that you are hiding your liquor and drinking after I go to bed....because I saw you."...…..that is even easier than the cat and mouse exercise.
lol...I get the feeling that you don't believe those of us who have been through all of this.....and, you strongly believe that you can logic or shame or guilt him into stopping.
Here are some more likely responses that you might expect, after you confront him with a mountain of evidence.....
1. He will deny---like dawnrising said---"That is an old bottle". "It isn't mine".
"I forgot it was there, from last year".
2. He might break down in sorrow and tears and say that, yes, he is a "lying pig" (your words)..and that he is going to change his ways and it won't happen again, and that he will never lie about his drinking again. And, he might even try to white knuckle it for a little while, and, then go back to hiding and drinking, again.....because the alcoholic voice, in his brain will be pushing him....
I think that this might be the most likely....
3. He might (depending on his personality)….feel threatened and humiliated, and get really angry....and, maybe, call you a controlling *itch.
What, exactly are you expecting, after you present the evidence?
There is, also, the option of telling him straight to his face, when he is sober.....
"You haven't fooled me--I know that you are drinking a lot more than your are admitting to me. I know that you are hiding your liquor and drinking after I go to bed....because I saw you."...…..that is even easier than the cat and mouse exercise.
lol...I get the feeling that you don't believe those of us who have been through all of this.....and, you strongly believe that you can logic or shame or guilt him into stopping.
Here are some more likely responses that you might expect, after you confront him with a mountain of evidence.....
1. He will deny---like dawnrising said---"That is an old bottle". "It isn't mine".
"I forgot it was there, from last year".
2. He might break down in sorrow and tears and say that, yes, he is a "lying pig" (your words)..and that he is going to change his ways and it won't happen again, and that he will never lie about his drinking again. And, he might even try to white knuckle it for a little while, and, then go back to hiding and drinking, again.....because the alcoholic voice, in his brain will be pushing him....
I think that this might be the most likely....
3. He might (depending on his personality)….feel threatened and humiliated, and get really angry....and, maybe, call you a controlling *itch.
What, exactly are you expecting, after you present the evidence?
As for believing the info on here, of course l do, but alcoholics are individuals too, there are levels of severity..there are the blind drunks...the aggressive...maintenance drinkers...binge drinkers...and so on so maybe one persons experience may differ from another's obviously.
Im sure he may well think lm a controlling b*tch...but wishing someone could make the best of the prescious life they have been given isnt be controlling...its called CARING.
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Originally Posted by Awal
...but wishing someone could make the best of the prescious life they have been given isnt be controlling...its called CARING.
Otherwise it's generally unhealthy & we arrogantly believe we can force someone to wake up/own up/get out of denial/whatever. We presume to know where someone's bottom "should" be or how their lives "should" be led, what they are "capable" of, etc.
All this keeps us enmeshed while pointing the finger of blame at everyone but ourselves.
He has every right to drink & lie about it whether you like it or not. You don't have to tolerate or accept it - that's up to you.
Im sure even as an alcoholic he can see the difference between truth and deception.
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Posts: 543
Originally Posted by dandylion
Awal.....suppose you do find his stash and place it on a table , in front of him...and say...."There, I found you were hiding a bottle and drinking from it, so you didn't fool me, on bit."......exactly, what do you expect will happen, at that point?
There is, also, the option of telling him straight to his face, when he is sober.....
"You haven't fooled me--I know that you are drinking a lot more than your are admitting to me. I know that you are hiding your liquor and drinking after I go to bed....because I saw you."...…..that is even easier than the cat and mouse exercise.
lol...I get the feeling that you don't believe those of us who have been through all of this.....and, you strongly believe that you can logic or shame or guilt him into stopping.
Here are some more likely responses that you might expect, after you confront him with a mountain of evidence.....
1. He will deny---like dawnrising said---"That is an old bottle". "It isn't mine".
"I forgot it was there, from last year".
2. He might break down in sorrow and tears and say that, yes, he is a "lying pig" (your words)..and that he is going to change his ways and it won't happen again, and that he will never lie about his drinking again. And, he might even try to white knuckle it for a little while, and, then go back to hiding and drinking, again.....because the alcoholic voice, in his brain will be pushing him....
I think that this might be the most likely....
3. He might (depending on his personality)….feel threatened and humiliated, and get really angry....and, maybe, call you a controlling *itch.
What, exactly are you expecting, after you present the evidence?
There is, also, the option of telling him straight to his face, when he is sober.....
"You haven't fooled me--I know that you are drinking a lot more than your are admitting to me. I know that you are hiding your liquor and drinking after I go to bed....because I saw you."...…..that is even easier than the cat and mouse exercise.
lol...I get the feeling that you don't believe those of us who have been through all of this.....and, you strongly believe that you can logic or shame or guilt him into stopping.
Here are some more likely responses that you might expect, after you confront him with a mountain of evidence.....
1. He will deny---like dawnrising said---"That is an old bottle". "It isn't mine".
"I forgot it was there, from last year".
2. He might break down in sorrow and tears and say that, yes, he is a "lying pig" (your words)..and that he is going to change his ways and it won't happen again, and that he will never lie about his drinking again. And, he might even try to white knuckle it for a little while, and, then go back to hiding and drinking, again.....because the alcoholic voice, in his brain will be pushing him....
I think that this might be the most likely....
3. He might (depending on his personality)….feel threatened and humiliated, and get really angry....and, maybe, call you a controlling *itch.
What, exactly are you expecting, after you present the evidence?
As for believing the info on here, of course l do, but alcoholics are individuals too, there are levels of severity..there are the blind drunks...the aggressive...maintenance drinkers...binge drinkers...and so on so maybe one persons experience may differ from another's obviously.
Im sure he may well think lm a controlling b*tch...but wishing someone could make the best of the prescious life they have been given isnt be controlling...its called CARING.
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,103
Its not the booze so much as the lying..
He is deceiving you with his drinking, he knows that, and you know that, so what’s the point in pointing out the obvious here?
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Posts: 151
Originally Posted by FireSprite
I think this is exactly why ultimatums suck & learning to rely more on boundaries is a win-win. I'm always left frustrated when I rely on ultimatums, but with boundaries I can feel measured progress. (even in dealing with crossed boundaries)
His admission and/or acceptance of his behavior doesn't change anything you already know or your ability to change things on your side.
So, you get to be right. You're already right. You already know that. Now what? It's frustrating, or at least it feels that way to me when I've been stuck in this loop...
You don't want his "permission" - you want him to have a shift of perspective & "see" things clearly enough to have accountability & acceptance. You want him to change & if he was ready for that, you wouldn't be upset about *this* today.
I'm sorry, these situations just plain suck.
His admission and/or acceptance of his behavior doesn't change anything you already know or your ability to change things on your side.
So, you get to be right. You're already right. You already know that. Now what? It's frustrating, or at least it feels that way to me when I've been stuck in this loop...
You don't want his "permission" - you want him to have a shift of perspective & "see" things clearly enough to have accountability & acceptance. You want him to change & if he was ready for that, you wouldn't be upset about *this* today.
I'm sorry, these situations just plain suck.
AW just got arrested for 4th DWI - this time driving with our child. Told her after last DWI (no child involved), I wasn't picking her up from jail. And didn't.
I guess her brother and sister in law did. Told them she was not welcome in the house.
I guess her parents put her up in a hotel room for a few days and, I gather, she entered (another) rehab program (in house).
Not my circus, not my monkeys anymore.
MCESaint
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by suki44883
Ego/pride.
Having boundaries and holding firm to them, has been better than being right or assuaging my ego.
Your mileage may vary . . . and god knows I went through my own "I'm right" stage.
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Posts: 39,896
Originally Posted by MCESaint
In my experience - and it's only MY experience - I've found that me "being right" didn't end the chaos. In fact, it just fueled more of it.
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awal…...lol...I may be repeating some of the things that I said in some other posts to you...so, I hope you can be patient with me....
You say that even an alcoholic can tell the difference between truth and deception---but, as Firesprite pointed out---that is an assumption. What you see as a lie...the alcoholic sees as self preservation. It is the Denial of alcoholism. It is what alcoholics do, due to their alcoholic thinking. Your logic is not going to cut through th at, even if you tie yourself into a pretzel.
Yes, it is true that every person has a different personality...some are aggressive, some are passive, etc. But, the disease characteristics and patterns are well known and can be described. How do you think that those of us, who have lived through it, are all telling you the same thing? lol...it is almost like all alcoholics use the same handbook....
I get it that you are Caring. (and angry and scared). I am sure that we all get that. However, the alcoholic does not see being on their back about their drinking as caring. To the alcoholic, they see any interference in their ability to drink, freely, as the Enemy. Even though they may love you. Even if it is their mother, or their wife, or their child, or friend or employer---they are seen as the enemy. It is just a fact.
The first thing that you will learn is the 3 Cs.
You didn't Cause it. You can't Cure it. And, you can't Control it.
You will need to wrap your head around that and come to accept that...especially if you are staying with him. It is one of the first things that you will learn in alanon……
"Acceptance" is a big word....and there are some things that will have to be accepted if one lives with an active alcoholic that is not in genuine recovery. I am not saying that it is easy....it will mean that you will have to educate yourself about alcoholism and work on detaching and building a life for yourself that does not have your husband at the center of it. He sounds like he has progressed pretty far into his disease....so, the disease is the center of his life, and has a grip on him. He cannot just turn about and become like you wish he would be....considering that alcoholism is progressive and gets worse over time...unless it is arrested by a diligent program of recovery.
Another thing....he has been drinking for a long time...so, he may not be able to stop without extreme discomfort and dangerous withdrawl symptoms....which set in with a number of hours.
I have worked with alcoholics for several years and I would never ask an alcoholic to just stop...cold turkey. They need medical supervision...preferably I a detox facility...like a hospital...or, at least, visit a doctor's office and let the doctor advise and manage him.
Everybody has different tolerances and goals. Some choose to stay. Alanon is full of spouses who stay. It is a personal decision that every person is, of course entitled to take. For some, it seems that all they require is a warm body...and that is o.k. For others, they would rather live in a nest in a hollow tree than endure it.
I have seen others who seem to straddle a middle ground...where they remain married for their own reasons...but, live separately, and maintain some contact and co-operation.
One thing to consider, is his age...about 66? that is one reason that I would be concerned about withdrawl….I imagine that he has been drinking for at least 30yrs. I believe that his ex wife revealed that he drank heavily when they were together (I hope my memory is correct on this). Eventually the body begins to suffer the effects of the drinking...even if they haven't, yet. One has to consider that they may become the caretaker of the alcoholic....-and, caretaking is very, very stressful on the mental and physical health of the caretaker.
so, in your decision making...it is important to consider your own self care and welfare...….
You say that even an alcoholic can tell the difference between truth and deception---but, as Firesprite pointed out---that is an assumption. What you see as a lie...the alcoholic sees as self preservation. It is the Denial of alcoholism. It is what alcoholics do, due to their alcoholic thinking. Your logic is not going to cut through th at, even if you tie yourself into a pretzel.
Yes, it is true that every person has a different personality...some are aggressive, some are passive, etc. But, the disease characteristics and patterns are well known and can be described. How do you think that those of us, who have lived through it, are all telling you the same thing? lol...it is almost like all alcoholics use the same handbook....
I get it that you are Caring. (and angry and scared). I am sure that we all get that. However, the alcoholic does not see being on their back about their drinking as caring. To the alcoholic, they see any interference in their ability to drink, freely, as the Enemy. Even though they may love you. Even if it is their mother, or their wife, or their child, or friend or employer---they are seen as the enemy. It is just a fact.
The first thing that you will learn is the 3 Cs.
You didn't Cause it. You can't Cure it. And, you can't Control it.
You will need to wrap your head around that and come to accept that...especially if you are staying with him. It is one of the first things that you will learn in alanon……
"Acceptance" is a big word....and there are some things that will have to be accepted if one lives with an active alcoholic that is not in genuine recovery. I am not saying that it is easy....it will mean that you will have to educate yourself about alcoholism and work on detaching and building a life for yourself that does not have your husband at the center of it. He sounds like he has progressed pretty far into his disease....so, the disease is the center of his life, and has a grip on him. He cannot just turn about and become like you wish he would be....considering that alcoholism is progressive and gets worse over time...unless it is arrested by a diligent program of recovery.
Another thing....he has been drinking for a long time...so, he may not be able to stop without extreme discomfort and dangerous withdrawl symptoms....which set in with a number of hours.
I have worked with alcoholics for several years and I would never ask an alcoholic to just stop...cold turkey. They need medical supervision...preferably I a detox facility...like a hospital...or, at least, visit a doctor's office and let the doctor advise and manage him.
Everybody has different tolerances and goals. Some choose to stay. Alanon is full of spouses who stay. It is a personal decision that every person is, of course entitled to take. For some, it seems that all they require is a warm body...and that is o.k. For others, they would rather live in a nest in a hollow tree than endure it.
I have seen others who seem to straddle a middle ground...where they remain married for their own reasons...but, live separately, and maintain some contact and co-operation.
One thing to consider, is his age...about 66? that is one reason that I would be concerned about withdrawl….I imagine that he has been drinking for at least 30yrs. I believe that his ex wife revealed that he drank heavily when they were together (I hope my memory is correct on this). Eventually the body begins to suffer the effects of the drinking...even if they haven't, yet. One has to consider that they may become the caretaker of the alcoholic....-and, caretaking is very, very stressful on the mental and physical health of the caretaker.
so, in your decision making...it is important to consider your own self care and welfare...….
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Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 543
Originally Posted by dandylion
awal…...lol...I may be repeating some of the things that I said in some other posts to you...so, I hope you can be patient with me....
You say that even an alcoholic can tell the difference between truth and deception---but, as Firesprite pointed out---that is an assumption. What you see as a lie...the alcoholic sees as self preservation. It is the Denial of alcoholism. It is what alcoholics do, due to their alcoholic thinking. Your logic is not going to cut through th at, even if you tie yourself into a pretzel.
Yes, it is true that every person has a different personality...some are aggressive, some are passive, etc. But, the disease characteristics and patterns are well known and can be described. How do you think that those of us, who have lived through it, are all telling you the same thing? lol...it is almost like all alcoholics use the same handbook....
I get it that you are Caring. (and angry and scared). I am sure that we all get that. However, the alcoholic does not see being on their back about their drinking as caring. To the alcoholic, they see any interference in their ability to drink, freely, as the Enemy. Even though they may love you. Even if it is their mother, or their wife, or their child, or friend or employer---they are seen as the enemy. It is just a fact.
The first thing that you will learn is the 3 Cs.
You didn't Cause it. You can't Cure it. And, you can't Control it.
You will need to wrap your head around that and come to accept that...especially if you are staying with him. It is one of the first things that you will learn in alanon……
"Acceptance" is a big word....and there are some things that will have to be accepted if one lives with an active alcoholic that is not in genuine recovery. I am not saying that it is easy....it will mean that you will have to educate yourself about alcoholism and work on detaching and building a life for yourself that does not have your husband at the center of it. He sounds like he has progressed pretty far into his disease....so, the disease is the center of his life, and has a grip on him. He cannot just turn about and become like you wish he would be....considering that alcoholism is progressive and gets worse over time...unless it is arrested by a diligent program of recovery.
Another thing....he has been drinking for a long time...so, he may not be able to stop without extreme discomfort and dangerous withdrawl symptoms....which set in with a number of hours.
I have worked with alcoholics for several years and I would never ask an alcoholic to just stop...cold turkey. They need medical supervision...preferably I a detox facility...like a hospital...or, at least, visit a doctor's office and let the doctor advise and manage him.
Everybody has different tolerances and goals. Some choose to stay. Alanon is full of spouses who stay. It is a personal decision that every person is, of course entitled to take. For some, it seems that all they require is a warm body...and that is o.k. For others, they would rather live in a nest in a hollow tree than endure it.
I have seen others who seem to straddle a middle ground...where they remain married for their own reasons...but, live separately, and maintain some contact and co-operation.
One thing to consider, is his age...about 66? that is one reason that I would be concerned about withdrawl….I imagine that he has been drinking for at least 30yrs. I believe that his ex wife revealed that he drank heavily when they were together (I hope my memory is correct on this). Eventually the body begins to suffer the effects of the drinking...even if they haven't, yet. One has to consider that they may become the caretaker of the alcoholic....-and, caretaking is very, very stressful on the mental and physical health of the caretaker.
so, in your decision making...it is important to consider your own self care and welfare...….
You say that even an alcoholic can tell the difference between truth and deception---but, as Firesprite pointed out---that is an assumption. What you see as a lie...the alcoholic sees as self preservation. It is the Denial of alcoholism. It is what alcoholics do, due to their alcoholic thinking. Your logic is not going to cut through th at, even if you tie yourself into a pretzel.
Yes, it is true that every person has a different personality...some are aggressive, some are passive, etc. But, the disease characteristics and patterns are well known and can be described. How do you think that those of us, who have lived through it, are all telling you the same thing? lol...it is almost like all alcoholics use the same handbook....
I get it that you are Caring. (and angry and scared). I am sure that we all get that. However, the alcoholic does not see being on their back about their drinking as caring. To the alcoholic, they see any interference in their ability to drink, freely, as the Enemy. Even though they may love you. Even if it is their mother, or their wife, or their child, or friend or employer---they are seen as the enemy. It is just a fact.
The first thing that you will learn is the 3 Cs.
You didn't Cause it. You can't Cure it. And, you can't Control it.
You will need to wrap your head around that and come to accept that...especially if you are staying with him. It is one of the first things that you will learn in alanon……
"Acceptance" is a big word....and there are some things that will have to be accepted if one lives with an active alcoholic that is not in genuine recovery. I am not saying that it is easy....it will mean that you will have to educate yourself about alcoholism and work on detaching and building a life for yourself that does not have your husband at the center of it. He sounds like he has progressed pretty far into his disease....so, the disease is the center of his life, and has a grip on him. He cannot just turn about and become like you wish he would be....considering that alcoholism is progressive and gets worse over time...unless it is arrested by a diligent program of recovery.
Another thing....he has been drinking for a long time...so, he may not be able to stop without extreme discomfort and dangerous withdrawl symptoms....which set in with a number of hours.
I have worked with alcoholics for several years and I would never ask an alcoholic to just stop...cold turkey. They need medical supervision...preferably I a detox facility...like a hospital...or, at least, visit a doctor's office and let the doctor advise and manage him.
Everybody has different tolerances and goals. Some choose to stay. Alanon is full of spouses who stay. It is a personal decision that every person is, of course entitled to take. For some, it seems that all they require is a warm body...and that is o.k. For others, they would rather live in a nest in a hollow tree than endure it.
I have seen others who seem to straddle a middle ground...where they remain married for their own reasons...but, live separately, and maintain some contact and co-operation.
One thing to consider, is his age...about 66? that is one reason that I would be concerned about withdrawl….I imagine that he has been drinking for at least 30yrs. I believe that his ex wife revealed that he drank heavily when they were together (I hope my memory is correct on this). Eventually the body begins to suffer the effects of the drinking...even if they haven't, yet. One has to consider that they may become the caretaker of the alcoholic....-and, caretaking is very, very stressful on the mental and physical health of the caretaker.
so, in your decision making...it is important to consider your own self care and welfare...….
I wouldn't dream of suggesting he gets help. That's up to him. You have a good memory and your statements are correct, l only found out from his ex recently that this is a long standing problem...he probably hid some of it from her too.
I have a break with my dog booked in a couple of weeks...l call them sanity breaks...they clear my mind and lift me out of this negative whirlpool. AH stays home.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,450
Originally Posted by Awal
Because he even lies about being a liar.
It seems you have a choice here: accept that he lies about this, and that is who he is, and make your decisions accordingly; or continue to try to get him to change into something else (even though you are the only one with a problem with how he behaves--he's fine with it).
I get that this is frustrating, and it seems like common sense to call someone out on being a liar. But when a behavior is habitual, and denial is strong, shaming someone more often than not makes them double down on the bad behavior or attempt to hide it better from their accuser. I wasted a lot of years trying to get other people to "see the light" and everyone was miserable because of it.
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
Posts: 816
Having a front row seat to watch someone destroy their health
& withdraw due to addiction is excruciatingly painful. It is what fuels our
attempts to "change" the addict. We will obsess over it and try
different angles until the realization hits that we can only
control and change ourselves. Caring and controlling can get
jumbled up in the dysfunctional relationships with addicts.
& withdraw due to addiction is excruciatingly painful. It is what fuels our
attempts to "change" the addict. We will obsess over it and try
different angles until the realization hits that we can only
control and change ourselves. Caring and controlling can get
jumbled up in the dysfunctional relationships with addicts.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,629
Originally Posted by Awal
Im sure he may well think lm a controlling b*tch...but wishing someone could make the best of the prescious life they have been given isnt be controlling...its called CARING.
You stated this in an earlier thread:
Originally Posted by Awal
I just need to catch him out one more time...Because now he has made me a promise to always be honest...finding another secret will confirm a serious problem and he cannot excuse his way out of it!
How many confessions do you really need?
You know, this may sound harsh but I absolutely have compassion for you and for him. I know how hard this must be for you.
He isn't changing because he doesn't want to. He wants to drink (see dandylion's post about how alcoholics think). You may not have been mentioning his drinking, but he surely knows you disapprove or would disapprove if he thought you knew how much he really drinks.
Kind of like when you are trying to lose weight and grab an ice cream bar and your partner looks at you out of the corner of their eye. Does nothing but cause passive/aggressive hurt.
So my suggestion, if you are not fearful of him for any reason, start talking about alcohol and alcoholism and how this is all affecting you. Otherwise you could spend months or years on your fact finding mission which really bears no results other than to prove you are "right". Which you are by the way, he is drinking and he is lying.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
Originally Posted by suki44883
Ego/pride.
However, once I was able to wrap my mind around it, it led to a great parenting growth point for me & DD because I developed the saying, "if you can be right without being self-righteous DD, then say it."
If not - hold the thought & examine it further because as hard as it is to see at that moment, it's really about You, not Them. Hard stuff.
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,103
I think pride and ego play a big part on both sides of the alcohol issue. The alcoholic may hide the booze because of pride and ego and probably shame – he needs to stick to his story of not drinking or not drinking as much and protect his addiction anyway he can.
The spouse’s pride is in not being played for a fool, because they know the hiding is happening. And ego because they know they are right and want the other to know they know.
The spouse’s pride is in not being played for a fool, because they know the hiding is happening. And ego because they know they are right and want the other to know they know.
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
Posts: 816
There is also a great deal of fear.....
The codependent is as afraid to leave the alcoholic
as the alcoholic is to "leave" the alcohol and face life without it.
No judgement - everyone has the right to do what they believe
is best for them in this difficult situation.
The codependent is as afraid to leave the alcoholic
as the alcoholic is to "leave" the alcohol and face life without it.
No judgement - everyone has the right to do what they believe
is best for them in this difficult situation.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,629
Awal, I noticed you mentioned the alcohol discussion in your other thread and why you don't have it:
You know, in thinking about this, I feel like we are going in circles here lol
He lies to you, you know he drinks. You want him to admit his lying which he has but you do want to stay with him to maintain your current lifestyle.
So I'm not sure what the issue is anymore?
For the record I'm not being snarky here, I'm actually really unsure.
Originally Posted by Awal
There is no point in mentioning alcohol to him because he will just deny it..say im making a mountain out of a mole hill etc.
He lies to you, you know he drinks. You want him to admit his lying which he has but you do want to stay with him to maintain your current lifestyle.
So I'm not sure what the issue is anymore?
For the record I'm not being snarky here, I'm actually really unsure.
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