Relationships Question
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Western NY
Posts: 1,209
Relationships Question
Hey F&F, I had a question for you guys. I am an alcoholic/addict in recovery with a little over 3 years clean and sober now. In addition to being an alcoholic/addict, I have a lot codependent tendencies. I guess I am a double winner.
My question is regarding romantic relationships. I have been voluntarily celibate for almost two years now. The reason for that is because I got fed up with relationships. I decided to build a life without them. It took a while but I eventually got comfortable being by myself. I am fine with that going forward.
Over the past few months I have found myself internally going through some changes though. At work for example I am always short with the women at work and I am very distant. I was a fairly friendly person in the past though to everyone. Sometimes I will talk to a woman after a meeting and get a positive impression of her in the moment. Then it is like a part of my mind catches myself and I immediately start beating myself internally. I start thinking that I just allowed myself to get tricked. It is like I get mad at myself if I ever let my guard down for a moment.
I don't want to have any relationships, but I don't want to feel this angst over letting my guard down either.
I hope I am not posting this in the wrong spot. I have asked some other people in recovery about it, but they don't seem to understand. My sponsor keeps saying things like 'you will eventually find someone'. I don't think he understands that I don't want anyone.
Has anyone else had any experiences like this or am I just going crazy?
My question is regarding romantic relationships. I have been voluntarily celibate for almost two years now. The reason for that is because I got fed up with relationships. I decided to build a life without them. It took a while but I eventually got comfortable being by myself. I am fine with that going forward.
Over the past few months I have found myself internally going through some changes though. At work for example I am always short with the women at work and I am very distant. I was a fairly friendly person in the past though to everyone. Sometimes I will talk to a woman after a meeting and get a positive impression of her in the moment. Then it is like a part of my mind catches myself and I immediately start beating myself internally. I start thinking that I just allowed myself to get tricked. It is like I get mad at myself if I ever let my guard down for a moment.
I don't want to have any relationships, but I don't want to feel this angst over letting my guard down either.
I hope I am not posting this in the wrong spot. I have asked some other people in recovery about it, but they don't seem to understand. My sponsor keeps saying things like 'you will eventually find someone'. I don't think he understands that I don't want anyone.
Has anyone else had any experiences like this or am I just going crazy?
Life is good
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,036
Hi OP,
Have you been to Al-anon yet? My first instinct would to be pray about it and check out several different meetings. Same steps with a different experience. My home group has a lot of double winners. We have a AA and Al-anon meeting at the same time and there's a natural flow between some of the members attending one more often than the other, depending on what area of their recovery they're drawn to on any given day -- or sometimes depending on what other meetings their schedule allows during the week.
I noticed one of your sponsees passed on less than a year ago. I am sorry. This, in itself, is a lot to process. Grief has it's own timeline.
Have you been to Al-anon yet? My first instinct would to be pray about it and check out several different meetings. Same steps with a different experience. My home group has a lot of double winners. We have a AA and Al-anon meeting at the same time and there's a natural flow between some of the members attending one more often than the other, depending on what area of their recovery they're drawn to on any given day -- or sometimes depending on what other meetings their schedule allows during the week.
I noticed one of your sponsees passed on less than a year ago. I am sorry. This, in itself, is a lot to process. Grief has it's own timeline.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Western NY
Posts: 1,209
Mango - thanks for the quick reply. I think I'll take your suggestion and check out AlAnon. It would be cool to check out something new.
Yes, it was a hard loss when my Sponsee passed. I am not sure that I have ever really processed it. Yesterday I got a new Sponsee who is on fire though. He already wrote out a couple notebooks full on steps 1, 2 and 3 when he was in rehab. I love his enthusiasm so far.
Yes, it was a hard loss when my Sponsee passed. I am not sure that I have ever really processed it. Yesterday I got a new Sponsee who is on fire though. He already wrote out a couple notebooks full on steps 1, 2 and 3 when he was in rehab. I love his enthusiasm so far.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,629
Hi Opiophobe. I took a look at some of your former posts because, of course, where are you at now in terms of your reaction to women, might come from your previous experiences and I see you have been put through the wringer!
I didn't read far enough to see what happened after your first, short, relationship in rehab, you were seeing someone but I did see that was over.
Absolutely nothing wrong with being single and happy but there is obviously something that is off in your relationship to women.
How have you dealt with the previous relationships? Did you or do you attend counselling or therapy? Who have you talked to about it, if anyone?
I didn't read far enough to see what happened after your first, short, relationship in rehab, you were seeing someone but I did see that was over.
Absolutely nothing wrong with being single and happy but there is obviously something that is off in your relationship to women.
How have you dealt with the previous relationships? Did you or do you attend counselling or therapy? Who have you talked to about it, if anyone?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,355
I would also add, reading codependent no more, a book by melody beattie, if you haven't already, she calls herself a double winner too having been an addict and codependent. In fact SHE says that underneath every addiction is codependency.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 543
You choose not to get into a relationship which if it works for you is great. It's ok to see positives in women without wanting to take it further. Instead of seeing women as a breed apart why not view them as you do men? Just people. Gay straight black white Asian Christian Catholic atheist boy girl man woman...they are all just people no matter who they are. If you think well of someone be it male female transgender whatever ... it only means they have values you respect...don't over think it!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,792
Dear Opiophobe
You and I have some stuff in common, in that I am also content to be my myself.
What I hear YOU saying, though, is that you have two choices: either be romantically involved with a woman or have nothing to do with women at all. We all have more than just two choices, my friend, if I am reading you right.
I am friends with several fine women, one of whom could be something more later. I am taking that VERY slow if it is to happen at all.
You and I have some stuff in common, in that I am also content to be my myself.
What I hear YOU saying, though, is that you have two choices: either be romantically involved with a woman or have nothing to do with women at all. We all have more than just two choices, my friend, if I am reading you right.
I am friends with several fine women, one of whom could be something more later. I am taking that VERY slow if it is to happen at all.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Right here, right now!
Posts: 3,424
Opio-
I have not dated yet after getting divorced in early 2011.
For me it has been about healing myself.
I had been unwilling to feel anger in my disease, and when I did first start a number of years ago it took away my shiny veneer of pretending all was okay. I was not mean to people per say, but I was more reserved, pulled into myself and less willing to not say what I felt. It was a challenging time for me.
For me I had to go through the anger to come out the other side. I had stuffed it for so long that it took awhile, but I am so grateful I did.
I still have some work to do before considering dating again (mainly around boundaries) but I have a number of relationships in my life that I am grateful are teaching me that. It will come.
Also the other thing I learned was that for some time I was ashamed that I was not dating. Now I am not. Hurt people, hurt people and I would have done a lot of hurting if I had not taken the time to heal myself.
I think you will make the best decisions for you, and even if you don't it is typically a great learning experience that helps you to make a better decision down the road.
Best of luck.
I have not dated yet after getting divorced in early 2011.
For me it has been about healing myself.
I had been unwilling to feel anger in my disease, and when I did first start a number of years ago it took away my shiny veneer of pretending all was okay. I was not mean to people per say, but I was more reserved, pulled into myself and less willing to not say what I felt. It was a challenging time for me.
For me I had to go through the anger to come out the other side. I had stuffed it for so long that it took awhile, but I am so grateful I did.
I still have some work to do before considering dating again (mainly around boundaries) but I have a number of relationships in my life that I am grateful are teaching me that. It will come.
Also the other thing I learned was that for some time I was ashamed that I was not dating. Now I am not. Hurt people, hurt people and I would have done a lot of hurting if I had not taken the time to heal myself.
I think you will make the best decisions for you, and even if you don't it is typically a great learning experience that helps you to make a better decision down the road.
Best of luck.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Western NY
Posts: 1,209
Wow. Thanks for everyone's responses. I really do appreciate it. I am at work on lunch break so I can't write as much in response as I would like. I'll be able to write more tonight.
As far as interactions with women go, I would love to get to a point where I am able to interact the same way I do with men. I would like to be indifferent as to whether the person is male or female. It isn't as easy as just flipping a switch for me though. I think part of it has to do with an underlying fear with women. The women I have been close to are much more skilled than I am at inflicting emotional pain, and I am not good at spotting deception in women. I am afraid of getting hurt with no recourse.
With men it is very straightforward. There is always a path of recourse that I can take through physical violence. It almost never ever gets to that point. I am a physically intimidating person, which probably helps. Still, it gives me comfort to know that I have that as the ultimate backup. Women have said things to me on many different occasions that I would have IMMEDIATELY fought a man over without a second thought.
As far as being a friend with women goes I used to do that, but I stopped doing that a couple years ago. I found that my women friends thought I was going to be an emotional rag that they could bitch too when their current boyfriend was treating them nasty. Also, I found it demeaning to be friends with women. It felt like a judgment towards me that I am good enough to hang out with, but not good enough to be their boyfriend. I have goid, solid friendships with men anyway. To be blunt, I haven't found any women that have the level of loyalty and selflessness that I offer and expect in friendships.
I am going to order the Codependency No More on Amazon right now. Any other book suggestions? I love to read.
As far as interactions with women go, I would love to get to a point where I am able to interact the same way I do with men. I would like to be indifferent as to whether the person is male or female. It isn't as easy as just flipping a switch for me though. I think part of it has to do with an underlying fear with women. The women I have been close to are much more skilled than I am at inflicting emotional pain, and I am not good at spotting deception in women. I am afraid of getting hurt with no recourse.
With men it is very straightforward. There is always a path of recourse that I can take through physical violence. It almost never ever gets to that point. I am a physically intimidating person, which probably helps. Still, it gives me comfort to know that I have that as the ultimate backup. Women have said things to me on many different occasions that I would have IMMEDIATELY fought a man over without a second thought.
As far as being a friend with women goes I used to do that, but I stopped doing that a couple years ago. I found that my women friends thought I was going to be an emotional rag that they could bitch too when their current boyfriend was treating them nasty. Also, I found it demeaning to be friends with women. It felt like a judgment towards me that I am good enough to hang out with, but not good enough to be their boyfriend. I have goid, solid friendships with men anyway. To be blunt, I haven't found any women that have the level of loyalty and selflessness that I offer and expect in friendships.
I am going to order the Codependency No More on Amazon right now. Any other book suggestions? I love to read.
Life is good
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,036
Hi OP,
Seems like a lot of good inner awareness opening up and a willingness to change the dynamics of this. Great stuff there!
Al-anon, God/Higher Power and law of attraction have a great way of re-directing me to living in the solution. The rest gets shook out along the way.
No need to figure out the why or how things aren't working. By taking new actions, things start to change. Learning the why's can come a whole lot quicker as we also grab hold of new actions and keep much more of the focus on where we're going.
Just for today, make a decision to treat all people with a very similar dignity, respect and kindness. Nothing else involved. Let HP guide this. Open your heart to the world and start living in new ways. This isn't a long-term thing. Just for today. One day at a time.
Prayer: Great Spirit of this beautiful life,
Thank you for this day. Thank you for all people you bring into my life today. Please guide my thoughts and actions.
Meditation: I open my heart to this new day.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
Seems like a lot of good inner awareness opening up and a willingness to change the dynamics of this. Great stuff there!
Al-anon, God/Higher Power and law of attraction have a great way of re-directing me to living in the solution. The rest gets shook out along the way.
No need to figure out the why or how things aren't working. By taking new actions, things start to change. Learning the why's can come a whole lot quicker as we also grab hold of new actions and keep much more of the focus on where we're going.
Just for today, make a decision to treat all people with a very similar dignity, respect and kindness. Nothing else involved. Let HP guide this. Open your heart to the world and start living in new ways. This isn't a long-term thing. Just for today. One day at a time.
Prayer: Great Spirit of this beautiful life,
Thank you for this day. Thank you for all people you bring into my life today. Please guide my thoughts and actions.
Meditation: I open my heart to this new day.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
Community Greeter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Opio..…..well....it sure does look like you have built up some defensive wall, for some reason. It sounds so complex. I think it is something that deserves some delving into by a good therapist.....lots of material to work with.
Why?....simply because it seems to be bothering you so much....that is all the reason that one needs...in my opinion....
A couple of questions for you to "chew" on.....How do you feel when relating to lesbian women....where there is no opportunity for romantic type relationships...?
What was your relationship with your female caretakers, as you were growing up?
One other thought---I don't think that it is necessary to relate to women in the same "style" as you relate to men. Men and women do have differences in how they relate, in groups. One can still be civil and respectful to women...without them becoming your "best friend"....you don't have to have slumber parties or quilting circles.
question---is it only a conflict when it is with women who could, potentially, qualify for a more intimate relationship? In other words...is is possible that, you really would fancy a male-female relationship...but, have told yourself that it forbidden because it represents the fires of hell for you?....
LOl...I can see that I have asked lots of questions...but, don't offer any answers (except that it seems fertile soil for good therapy)…..
I do think that you will find some peace with this, if you keep digging....
Why?....simply because it seems to be bothering you so much....that is all the reason that one needs...in my opinion....
A couple of questions for you to "chew" on.....How do you feel when relating to lesbian women....where there is no opportunity for romantic type relationships...?
What was your relationship with your female caretakers, as you were growing up?
One other thought---I don't think that it is necessary to relate to women in the same "style" as you relate to men. Men and women do have differences in how they relate, in groups. One can still be civil and respectful to women...without them becoming your "best friend"....you don't have to have slumber parties or quilting circles.
question---is it only a conflict when it is with women who could, potentially, qualify for a more intimate relationship? In other words...is is possible that, you really would fancy a male-female relationship...but, have told yourself that it forbidden because it represents the fires of hell for you?....
LOl...I can see that I have asked lots of questions...but, don't offer any answers (except that it seems fertile soil for good therapy)…..
I do think that you will find some peace with this, if you keep digging....
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Western NY
Posts: 1,209
Originally Posted by trailmix 
How have you dealt with the previous relationships? Did you or do you attend counselling or therapy? Who have you talked to about it, if anyone?
The girl from rehab caused a lot of extreme emotions. She ended up playing me like a complete fool. It was probably the most humiliating experience of my life, which is saying a lot. I have done a lot of ridiculously stupid things in my life, but it all pales in comparison to how I set myself up on that one.
On the other hand, I would have likely committed suicide if I didn't meet her at that point in my life. I was fully intent on finishing my suicide upon release from the hospital. When I met her I felt loved and accepted, and it gave me a spark to want to live for something. Over the relatively short period that things were good with her I felt happy. I don't think I ever felt happy like that except for my early drug use / drinking.
So, it is a really complicated situation. Some days I think about her and loath her. Other days I think about her and I am grateful that I met her. Some days I hate myself for being do naive and other days I chalk it up to just being in a feeble, weak state of mind.
After that I went on a tear and slept with every woman that would have me. I became a man-****. The one thing that kept holding me back was getting pigeon holed as a "nice guy". I take that as the worst insult someone could call me. My interpretation of it is someone calling me a *****, and a lot of women called me that when I got dumped. It felt like I was going to have to get a flaming dick tattooed on my forehead for a woman to stop that "nice guy" ********.
I even went to two ex-pimps to ask for their advice on what the problem was. This was in the middle of the man-**** phase. One of them basically told me I was treating them too well. So over time I would get meaner and more of a dick with each relationship. The disturbing part was that it was effective. It was alarmingly more effective than being kind and compassionate to them. I still shake my head over this fact, but my personal experience corroborate it.
Eventually I got tired of sleeping around. I had already changed considerably from being a decent guy to starting to become fairly mean person. To finish my transformation I was going to have to become a vicious, cold-blooded person. It was at that point I started to realize that I am just not cut out for relationships. I feel a sense of guilt when I hurt someone, and I would have to constantly do that to keep someone around.
So, ya. I am totally ****** up when it comes to relationships. I could probably keep a therapist busy for decades.
Member
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 184
Hi OP,
I'm going to try and say this as respectfully as I can:
This was in the middle of the man-**** phase. One of them basically told me I was treating them too well. So over time I would get meaner and more of a dick with each relationship. The disturbing part was that it was effective. It was alarmingly more effective than being kind and compassionate to them. I still shake my head over this fact, but my personal experience corroborate it.
You were being abusive so that is why they "complied". It's better for women that you do not want relationships with them. And yes, as you stated, you could keep a therapist busy for decades.
Source: I was abused by my alcoholic ex-fiance. #NEVERAGAIN
I'm going to try and say this as respectfully as I can:
This was in the middle of the man-**** phase. One of them basically told me I was treating them too well. So over time I would get meaner and more of a dick with each relationship. The disturbing part was that it was effective. It was alarmingly more effective than being kind and compassionate to them. I still shake my head over this fact, but my personal experience corroborate it.
You were being abusive so that is why they "complied". It's better for women that you do not want relationships with them. And yes, as you stated, you could keep a therapist busy for decades.
Source: I was abused by my alcoholic ex-fiance. #NEVERAGAIN
Last edited by Leelee168; 10-08-2018 at 04:12 PM. Reason: Clarification of EX-fiance
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Western NY
Posts: 1,209
Originally Posted by dandylion
A couple of questions for you to "chew" on.....How do you feel when relating to lesbian women....where there is no opportunity for romantic type relationships...?
What was your relationship with your female caretakers, as you were growing up?
One other thought---I don't think that it is necessary to relate to women in the same "style" as you relate to men. Men and women do have differences in how they relate, in groups. One can still be civil and respectful to women...without them becoming your "best friend"....you don't have to have slumber parties or quilting circles.
question---is it only a conflict when it is with women who could, potentially, qualify for a more intimate relationship? In other words...is is possible that, you really would fancy a male-female relationship...but, have told yourself that it forbidden because it represents the fires of hell
What was your relationship with your female caretakers, as you were growing up?
One other thought---I don't think that it is necessary to relate to women in the same "style" as you relate to men. Men and women do have differences in how they relate, in groups. One can still be civil and respectful to women...without them becoming your "best friend"....you don't have to have slumber parties or quilting circles.
question---is it only a conflict when it is with women who could, potentially, qualify for a more intimate relationship? In other words...is is possible that, you really would fancy a male-female relationship...but, have told yourself that it forbidden because it represents the fires of hell
As far as the male-female relationship I still find women physically attractive sometimes. It is much less than it used to be and it is fleeting though. I am still hetero, but it feels like I am headed to being asexual. Beyond that fleeting physical attraction I no longer have any interest in a real relationship - i.e. love / companionship. I never fantasize about having someone in a relationship or anything like that.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Western NY
Posts: 1,209
Originally Posted by Leelee168
Hi OP,
I'm going to try and say this as respectfully as I can:
This was in the middle of the man-**** phase. One of them basically told me I was treating them too well. So over time I would get meaner and more of a dick with each relationship. The disturbing part was that it was effective. It was alarmingly more effective than being kind and compassionate to them. I still shake my head over this fact, but my personal experience corroborate it.
You were being abusive so that is why they "complied". It's better for women that you do not want relationships with them. And yes, as you stated, you could keep a therapist busy for decades.
Source: I was abused by my alcoholic ex-fiance. #NEVERAGAIN
I'm going to try and say this as respectfully as I can:
This was in the middle of the man-**** phase. One of them basically told me I was treating them too well. So over time I would get meaner and more of a dick with each relationship. The disturbing part was that it was effective. It was alarmingly more effective than being kind and compassionate to them. I still shake my head over this fact, but my personal experience corroborate it.
You were being abusive so that is why they "complied". It's better for women that you do not want relationships with them. And yes, as you stated, you could keep a therapist busy for decades.
Source: I was abused by my alcoholic ex-fiance. #NEVERAGAIN
So, ya. I would rather dish it out than receive it!
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ashburn, VA
Posts: 30,196
Does Al-Anon have any men only groups?
I hope gender-segregated groups exist there like they do in AA.
I bet you would find other decent men who have gone through some of the horrors you’ve gone through and maybe have come through to a sense of calm balance.
At least it would be a place where you would be unhesitatingly welcomed.
I wish you the best.
(And you are not abnormal for preferring to be relationship free.)
I hope gender-segregated groups exist there like they do in AA.
I bet you would find other decent men who have gone through some of the horrors you’ve gone through and maybe have come through to a sense of calm balance.
At least it would be a place where you would be unhesitatingly welcomed.
I wish you the best.
(And you are not abnormal for preferring to be relationship free.)
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Western NY
Posts: 1,209
Good idea Gilmer. I looked up the schedule and it looks like they do have one on Sundays that I can actually make. The AL anon meetings are sparse in my area compared to the AA/NA schedules.
Community Greeter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Opio.....reading through this thread....I am going to go out on a limb, and, say....that I can only imagine that you came, already carrying some damaged baggage to your first adult romantic relationships......not to say that those relationships didn't add more fuel to the already existing fire.
The seeds of damaged self esteem are almost always sown in the growing -up years.
I actually think it might be a gift to yourself to devote a few years to just working on yourself, in therapy, and any other types of self exploration---without engaging in romantic relationships. At this time, I don't think it would be fair to you or the other person.....
So...lol....I am in agreement with you...
The seeds of damaged self esteem are almost always sown in the growing -up years.
I actually think it might be a gift to yourself to devote a few years to just working on yourself, in therapy, and any other types of self exploration---without engaging in romantic relationships. At this time, I don't think it would be fair to you or the other person.....
So...lol....I am in agreement with you...
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,629
As Glenjo mentioned, you will probably find the book helpful.
Yes, there is baggage there for sure and you haven't had a good experience with women.
The pimp's advice is completely wrong, unless you want an abusive relationship. Why is that not surprising?
Perhaps it's not that you are running in to the wrong women, perhaps your choosing is not quite spot on. What is your criteria? Honesty, trust, kindness, compassion?
If you find that woman are not so nice to you at work (perhaps even especially married women) it is probably because they are picking up on your vibe. Women, generally, are sensitive to that kind of thing and if they pick up on aggro you are not going to get a good response. I call it a "dark side".
Anyway, I would strongly suggest that working with a therapist on this would be a really good idea, not so you can high-tail it in to a relationship but so you can get along happily with the other 50 percent of the population!
Yes, there is baggage there for sure and you haven't had a good experience with women.
The pimp's advice is completely wrong, unless you want an abusive relationship. Why is that not surprising?
Perhaps it's not that you are running in to the wrong women, perhaps your choosing is not quite spot on. What is your criteria? Honesty, trust, kindness, compassion?
If you find that woman are not so nice to you at work (perhaps even especially married women) it is probably because they are picking up on your vibe. Women, generally, are sensitive to that kind of thing and if they pick up on aggro you are not going to get a good response. I call it a "dark side".
Anyway, I would strongly suggest that working with a therapist on this would be a really good idea, not so you can high-tail it in to a relationship but so you can get along happily with the other 50 percent of the population!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 2,966
I've known a few pimps and their advice is f'n stupid. If they were good "business men" they wouldn't be pimps..Come'on! Once I saw how they lived and 'treated' women, I cut ties with those idiots...pretty sure both are dead now..anyways.. IMO..you need more therapy/work to get down to whatever 'it' is making you feel this way and 'act out' against your children and yourself(suicide attempt) over a woman(no offense ladies)..You say you do not want a relationship,but your post,to me, sceam that you think you need one to be happy and content in life. Maybe you're not happy with your current life position..maybe you're pissed/resenting past nonsense that doesn't happen in a happy/'normal' ralationship..Get some therapy and stay away from shady ass people..male and female, is my thoughts.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
