OpioPhobe

Dontremember - the person was an ex-pimp with over 23 years clean now. I went to him because the advice I got from AA/NA mainstream was to act in a similar way that I did when I got burned. He is actually a very intelligent person, and it was only after taking his advice that I was not taken advantage of in relationships.

My suicide attempt was over 3 years ago. Your belittling characterization of it being "over a woman" is beyond offensive. Seriously, who do you think you are to judge my reasons for suicide?! I had my reasons, and it was a long list. Do you want me to include a list so I can make sure it passes muster with you?

At the time I didn't believe it to be selfish because I believed my children and everyone else in this world would be better without me. I believed I was doing it for their benefit. Your mind gets really twisted when you are suicidal. You should stick to giving advice on topics you have personal experience with.

And for the record I am taking care of my children as a single father. I work at a job where I make less than a third of what I did 15 years ago when I first graduated college. I am stuck in a miserable city dealing with courts that keep me here. I have no family to help with the children. If I was so selfish, I would have just thrown my hands up and sent them to foster care. Ya, I have problems with women but I am a damn good father who gave up a great deal for his children. So don't get it twisted.

Look, I have been brutally honest about what has been going on with me despite the fact that it is really embarassing. People have given me suggestions and I have taken them. I do want to get better and I am doing something about it.

trailmix

Yes you have been honest about where you are at and I find that commendable OP.

I still think the being too nice advice is terrible. Women who are also kind and compassionate do not respond well to poor treatment. If you find the women in your life responded well, then hey, they are probably not the women for you. That's ok too.

When you read Codependant no more you will read about boundaries and how they are helpful, you might find that information useful. Maybe that is a key component that has been missing.

dandylion

Opio..…..Yep...I think that trailmix is correct that boundaries is a really important subject. The kind of boundaries that are designed to protect one's own welfare. Like basic self esteem...the establishment of such boundaries usually begins in the early growing-up years.

LOl...I am just arrogant enough to give you the following advice about relationships with women--or any other kind of relationship....and, I consider it to be a Universal Truth.....
The most essential ingredient is Respect and Trust. (attraction, of course, is the starting line for a romantic type of relationship---but it takes basic respect and trust for it to grow into something healthy and sustaining).

Gm0824

Just thought I'd chime in and say we (on both sides) have been through our fair share of crap. For me, I feel like I over-corrected after I left the piles of bs that was my life and was no longer to accept anything that even hinted at having an odor of bs. As I have grown and replaced old ways of thinking with a healthier version of myself, my life continues to evolve naturally. People around me have changed, some remain the same. Finding a good balance remains a daily activity for me.

FWIW, some good women still want and truly appreciate a "nice guy", as friends even. I was not looking either and am now seeing someone (aka nice guy) who had been by himself for years on his own accord. We started out as friends and things developed naturally over time. What a difference two semi-normal people in relationship feels like compared to anything else I have experienced!

Keep your chin up. Looking or not looking, keep working on you and taking care of your children. Glad you posted. Here is a quote I like to apply to both platonic friendships and romantic ones:

Someone who is worthy of your love will never put you in a position where you feel you must sacrifice your dignity, your integrity or your self worth to be with them.

OpioPhobe

Well, I definitely opened a pandora's box in my head. I haven't felt this bad since the first couple months of recovery.

I was going to share some poignant life experiences on why I believe what I believe about being perceived as a nice guy. When I went back to those memories I started to feel a terrible rage boiling inside. Suffice it to say that I am not open-minded on that point. We will have to agree to disagree at this juncture.

I am regretting even bringing this up. I think I was a little bit too honest about what is really going on inside. It may have been better to let sleeping dogs lie.

I will read the book once it gets here and see if that helps. As far as therapy goes, I am too afraid to go. I could never admit all this to a therapist. Sharing with my sponsor is one thing. At least my sponsor shares embarassing points of his life with me too. It would be highly inappropriate to share with a female therapist, and I would be too afraid of judgment from a male therapist.

trailmix

Well, you will do what you can when you can/are ready to deal with it.

You didn't share very much so I wouldn't worry awfully much about that. I'm really sorry you find this so disturbing but I'm not surprised. You haven't dealt with it yet, which is why it comes out in your relationship to women. Emotions boil over, whether that is anger, sadness, grief, fear, as you well know.

Hang in there, I hope the book helps you to get a better perspective so that you can feel more comfortable.

Gm0824

I appreciated your honesty about how past relationships/events shape our current views. Gave me a lot to think about myself. Nothing wrong about being real and candid on your thoughts with people whom you can trust. The fact you are able to discern for yourself who those people are says a lot about your character already. I enjoyed your writing, thank you for sharing. Hope you continue to post on the F&F side.

Hawkeye13

Stuffed emotions and experiences will find a way out--directly through drinking / acting out or indirectly through anger, shame, and fear.

I'm sorry for your pain--I can tell you that once I found the strength to get help, I found peace underneath the anger, shame and fear.

I hope you give yourself that gift one day--you deserve it.

Florence

OP, I usually just log in and read on this site anymore, but I felt compelled to respond to this post because it's extremely troubling to me. Women are not all one thing or another, we are individuals with dreams, hopes, goals, experiences, childhoods, traumas, disappointments, successes, failures, commitments, and responsibilities, just like you are, just like men are. Reading your words, I'm seeing a lot of entitlement around women in exchange for your good treatment. This is... troublesome. Women don't owe you anything.

We are responsible for our own behavior. We are responsible to treat others with kindness and respect and to respect their autonomy, and to develop healthy boundaries that work for us. Writing off women as a class of people because of your experiences is not a healthy boundary. Living in the world, you will interact with women - how will you be with them? I urge you, for your kids' sake, for your sake, for the women who are in your life's sake, to consider counseling in the long term to deeply explore and expunge this deep distrust of women from your life. Therapists are trained to handle this stuff and they see it all the time. Don't be ashamed - have the courage to get better and be better.

OpioPhobe

Things are calming down a little bit today. My sponsor had me write out a gratitude list. I wanted to say thanks to everyone who has written on here. I read all of them, and I do appreciate it.

I am not sure that I have a sense of entitlement or not. What exactly qualifies as having a sense of entitlement? Can you give more concrete examples? I am being serious about these questions. Sometimes it is hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic. I think my prior posts show that I am straightforward when I strongly disagree with someone.

I haven't shared any of this to intentionally trouble anyone. The reason I posted it over here was because I assumed that my view of women was similar to how some people feel about addicts/alcoholics. I am guessing that there are people that had terrible experiences with addicts/alcoholics who have decided not to get into relationships with addicts/alcoholics going forward. There are probably people that perceive addicts/alcoholics in a way that is based on their personal experiences with them. I could definitely understand those individuals, and I would probably agree with them in many cases. Addicts are individuals with dreams, hopes, etc., but I wouldn't expect that to dissuade others from their perspectives that are built on the cornerstone of personal experience.


I do want to get better so that I can be a better father to my daughter. She is eight and already talks about how she wants to be married one day. I don't want to poison her with my resentments, but I don't know how to respond to certain questions. I now view relationships as just a power struggle with one person dominant over the other. You better hope you have the upper hand or you are going to get burned. I would be a piece of **** if I told her what I really thought about love and relationships. It wouldn't be fair to dash her childhood dreams. On the other hand, it is my duty to prepare her for the real world, and not an idealized version of it. I am kind of stumped on that one.

The book isn't here yet. Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time to read my rambling thoughts.

aliciagr

Your post is interesting but this doesn't look like codependent behavior to me, instead it looks like something that should be taken up with a professional therapist.

What does you life look like socially apart from your involvement in 12 step, and its members as your social group? Could you not want a relationship because your simply content with the world you live in, and the people who are in it right now?

trailmix

Just wanted to mention that I didn't suggest the book because I think OP is (or isn't) codependent, but that boundaries might be a good tool going forward.

trailmix

I completely understand what you are saying here. I have not been in a relationship like this however I've seen it. Also, really, it's kind of stereotypical. Happy wife, happy life - every comedian has a routine about being bullied by their wife.

Saw a guy tweet in to a TV show today with a picture of his 5 TV screens - comment buy the guys on the show "he mustn't be married". You know what I mean I'm sure.

Honestly, by and large in many relationships I've seen, the women of the house does tend to run the show a lot. I think many times this isn't necessarily by choice but by necessity. While it is probably nice for someone to be carrying that load, there is a trade off. You cannot be uninvolved in the adult responsibilities but feel you an have an equal say in all things. Actions, not words.

To clarify, I'm not saying this about you OP, just generalizing here.

That said, not all relationships are like that. There can be a real balance and equality and respect in relationships, obviously that is not what you have experienced and I think learning about boundaries can help there.

Not sure what you view or viewed your role as in relationships with women (be that romantic or as a friend or co-worker) but you can be non-passive and still be a nice guy.

Awal

When it comes to your daughters hopes and dreams try to think that not all relationships go wrong, l know many people who are very happy after decades together. Your daughter has every chance of being the same as them. As l see it you are doing nothing wrong, you know what you want and what you dont want and thats it.

Gm0824

"I haven't shared any of this to intentionally trouble anyone. The reason I posted it over here was because I assumed that my view of women was similar to how some people feel about addicts/alcoholics. I am guessing that there are people that had terrible experiences with addicts/alcoholics who have decided not to get into relationships with addicts/alcoholics going forward. There are probably people that perceive addicts/alcoholics in a way that is based on their personal experiences with them. I could definitely understand those individuals, and I would probably agree with them in many cases. Addicts are individuals with dreams, hopes, etc., but I wouldn't expect that to dissuade others from their perspectives that are built on the cornerstone of personal experience."

I get it. I was asked to attend a wedding with the man I am seeing. I went into full on panic mode internally, I called a family member and arranged to have them come and pick me up if he got **** faced drunk. Its notable to say, he has never had any addiction issues and is only an occasional drinker but this was MY past experiences of something my ex would have done and I brought my issues forward and put them onto him. An example of how I mentioned previously that I was over correcting, so worried about putting myself in positions I had in the past. We had a great time, he drank maybe two glasses and I felt like crap for plotting an escape from an imaginary scenario of someone who had never given me a reason to doubt him.

My children are young, xah is not involved in their lives anymore. In their short lives, they have witnessed some horrible things living with active addiction, my own actions towards xah included. As their parent I try my best to show what healthy behaviors, boundaries and relationships looks like. My daughter is the same age as yours, we were talking the other night and her criteria for her future (way future!) boyfriend would be they are friends, don't talk ugly to each other, and laugh a lot. Pretty spot on.

FireSprite

I'm having a hard time verbalizing it & I'm sure someone else will come along to help, but for me it's the way you treat every other woman as though she were responsible for the behavior of those that hurt you. Don't close off from being a good guy - figure out why you've historically been drawn to the type of woman that takes advantage of that & work on changing that dynamic - don't punish every other woman walking the planet. That's YOU not THEM spreading your damage around.

I don't think anyone thinks you are intentionally stirring the pot - truth is, tough threads & conversations like these are often where we ALL grow if we can stay civil & open minded. Contrast creates growth.

I can only speak from my experience, but I know that my kid growing up triggers me along the way. When she hits a growth point that hurts somehow for my inner, wounded child, I react from that mentality. But my recovery has taught me to slow down & examine those thoughts because when the trigger goes off, it feels wrong now even if the thought process feels the same. That's what switching over to new programming feels like - it takes a while for that new idea/pattern to take hold. For a while you get stuck between reacting (old behavior ) & consciously choosing new action instead. Eventually it becomes the "new normal" but only after much repetition.

In your shoes, I might be at war between reacting from my life experience & knowing that doesn't "fit" for my daughter.... and in that case, doesn't that also mean it may no longer fit for/serve ME? Can I really be of 2 entirely different mindsets - raising a strong, loving healthy daughter all the while thinking every other woman on the planet is close to worthless?

IMO you should take some time to examine your relationships to women going ALL the way backward in your life - not just those you've dated but every woman that impacted you growing up too - mom, grandma, aunts, favorite cousin, sisters - whatever. All of it - girls you dated & those that said no. What emotions rise in you when you remember them? Now that you're sober you're FEELING this stuff for the first time, all over again, in a way.... uncorking all that buried & repressed pain. It's going to look different because your recovery will have given you new ways of accepting those emotions & processing them in a healthy way. (hopefully, lol) Your ideas of women as a gender can't have only begun with your first romantic relationship.

DontRemember

How often do you speak with your sponsor? The reason I said what I said was I read your past threads..on women. You seem very angry at any/all women because of past trauma..caused,possibly, by women? If you were to get into a relationship in your current state of mind it would be a train wreck for both/all involved. You can get mad a me..I don't care..you can read my post history and see my stuff as far as relationship(s)/sucicidal mindsets go..I don't care. Even in your opening you mention how your "physical stature is intimidating" or something to that effect and "would fight men if they said some of the things women have said to you"...LOL I'm a decent sized guy and would never say that stuff.. Get some therapy,buddy..You really need it.. i'm sure you've heard the phrase "dry dunk" in the rooms..That's what I'm sensing with your posts/tones.

Edit: If I were you, I'd go through the steps again too.

OpioPhobe

Dontremember - I had some down time and decided to read through your past posts. It was interesting.

The way you count your sober time is weird though. In early July you said you had 19 months. Then in late July you said you had 19 months minus one night. After that you tell people you have between a year and 2 years, but you "don`t count days." That isn`t how it works.

You drank in July didn`t you? How many other days of drinking have you had since then? You have been active on the newcomer forum telling them you have a certain amount of sober time after going to AA for a little while and not getting a sponsor. That isn`t right to break people`s trust like that. What if someone decides to follow your advice and dies from a relapse.

You need to stop trying to give everyone else advice. Almost all of your posts were advice to other people. You claim you went to AA, never got a sponsor, and never `formally` worked the steps. Then you try to tell me to go back and rework the steps. How do you even know if the steps work? You never did them.

If you want to work the steps you need to do it with a sponsor. Working a 4th step is almost impossible without a sponsor. By definition, you can`t spot self-delusion without a third party.

A few days of being angry doesn`t make someone a dry drunk. By tomorrow I think the anger will have passed, and things will be ok.

In closing, if you had not been so arrogant and condescending I would have PMd you about your fuzzy math with your sober time. Then you would have had the opportunity to come clean on your own.

OpioPhobe

There were a couple questions raised I thought I would respond to.

1) I don't have a social life. It is working or taking care of the children. I can't really afford a sitter to watch the children so I can have the luxury of social time. Also, I have been becoming more and more antisocial. I have a hard time finding people with things in common. My prior profession was finance and I would watch the stock market the same way other people watch their fantasy football teams. I don't really do that any more. Actually, I don't do much of anything any more as far as hobbies go.

2) The relationships from my past could have something to do with it. The first memory of my life was a sexual act with a girl that was a little older than me. I was 3 or 4 at the time. Looking back on it, I suspect the girl had been getting molested by someone older. That definitely influenced my perception of women, and I have been sexual attracted to girls, women for literally as long as I can remember. I skipped that whole girls are gross stage that most other boys went through. I always wanted to hang out with the girls.

I have brought up the early sexual activity to therapists in the past and they kind of shrugged their shoulders about it. I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing either. That was one of the happiest memories of my life, and I would often replay it in my mind during childhood.


I went to an NA meeting tonight instead of AlAnon. My sponsor told me to get to more meetings so that is higher priority right now. I ran into a friend in recovery there who has been to NarAnon meetings. We made plans to go and check one out soon.

I did listen to an AlAnon speaker tape online. Well, I listened to part of it. The speaker said that she didn't ever have to be embarassed about another person's behavior again. That really struck a chord with me. My ex wife would always start acting crazy in public, and I would get so embarrassed I would want to hide under a chair. Is that a codependent tendency or does everyone feel that way? It was like I was always on edge trying to do damage control so she didn't ruin my relationships with other people. It was stressful and I stopped going out completely in the end. Tonight is the first time I ever connected the dots between my 'damage control' and trying to control another person/situation.

Also, something happened yesterday I thought I would share. About a week ago I couldn't make a meeting because one of my sitters was too distraught to watch the kids. She said that another AA member (who recently went out) came to visit her and tried to get her to go out to the bar with him. Naturally, I wasn't happy about that. So I run into him yesterday and confront him about it. I wasn't physically threatening or anything like that. I just told him that it was messed up and not to do it again. He claimed I was interrogating him, which, in hinsight, was true. Then he tells me that she made it up, that I know how women are, blah blah blah. I did have some doubt after the fact and started worrying that I had gotten manipulated by the women. However, today I was able to corroborate her account. It turns out he had tried that same ******** with another woman in the program earlier this week. I would have acted pretty much the same way if it had been a man in the program that he had been trying to get to out to the bar. The only difference is that I wouldn't have had the moments of self doubt. All-in-all I would say that is progress for me.

The book is supposed to be here this week.

I hope everyone had a good weekend.

trailmix

Wow OpioPhobe, I have to commend you for some serious dot connecting there. Seriously. I also think it's a huge stride to try to see your side of this (I'm not talking about "blame" btw).

I'm not a therapist but the encounter that you had when you were 3 or 4 is probably significant and I think that for a few reasons. You told us and you have told therapists in the past. You are also aware that you "skipped" the gross girls stage.

I never thought boys were gross either, I just ignored them during that stage lol. They were like aliens and I was not interested in aliens.

Being embarrassed when your partner is being a twit, I think is pretty normal for a lot of people but is it a good "normal"? You are separate people, they are entitled to act foolishly if they like, you are entitled to state your opinion about it but it is not fair to think they will change because of your opinion, if that makes sense.

Could be considered co-dependant I suppose.