Pathwaytofree

Hi I'm a "double winner"--AA/ACOA. This thread is for this side of the forums.

I had brunch with an AA friend I haven't seen in a while. She invited me to brunch, "to catch up." She's always been a lovely person. We've seen each other at various recovery meetings over the years.

I've recently had some difficult issues in my personal life. My husband gave me a gentle warning of "Are you sure you're up for this? If you go, keep it brief." He was concerned the conversation with her would be draining.

I told him (and myself) that I'd be fine. I wouldn't talk about anything that may upset me. It was just lunch. We were just going to catch up. The drive to get there wasn't too long.

Unfortunately, conversation was not "catch up" or "what's been new" in the least. The entire conversation was focused on an AA group we used to go to together. I don't go there anymore. It was like a cult. I go somewhere else.

I talked about certain things that weren't healthy for me in my experience when I used to go there. She listened, but then steered the conversation back to how that group was helpful for me. I sense that her motives were to get me back there--not to help myself but to help themselves. I didn't get a single spec of insight that what she said was for my own recovery and well-being.

She talked a lot about God, bible study, church, etc. She wanted me to read a religious book she read recently, and let her know what I thought of it.

I was very uncomfortable. However, because I didn't "feel" anxious, I thought I was feeling okay. I thought I was being polite, allowing her to take the lead in the conversation.

Unfortunately, I had a panic attack. But due to the nature of panic attacks, I wasn't sure if it was cardiac or a panic attack. Plus I was calm during it. It's not like I was hyperventilating or anything like that. It was confusing. Usually with panic attacks, my mind is very anxious, so I know what it is.

I went to the hospital and they ran some tests. They said my heart was fine. They also explained to me later that I was presenting with physiological symptoms of a panic/anxiety attack. They explained some things to me that I was confused about. Like why was my blood pressure sky high? And what was causing the chest pain and palpitations? How was this an anxiety attack, if my voice was calm and I wasn't hyperventilating or something?

Everyone at the hospital was very professional. They didn't make me feel an ounce of shame over it turning out to be a panic attack. However, it was time consuming, expensive, embarrassing, and I'm very angry at myself. Plus I worried my husband unnecessarily.

I did notice during brunch that my gut instinct was sending me little signals/thoughts, but I didn't listen. I kept thinking I was okay with the conversation. That I could handle it. That it wasn't upsetting me. That I could trust her with what I was sharing.

I need to learn the lesson from this. I need to learn how to step it up to advocate for myself, and take care of my own needs. "Being of service" as AA teaches, just isn't going to cut it in situations like this, where it's to my own detriment.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts, experience, suggestions, opinions, etc.

kevlarsjal2

Hi Pathway! Thanks for your post.

I'm sorry to hear about your panic attack. That sounds scary. Good to know that there isn't anything wrong with your heart though.

My therapist thinks that AA isn't for everyone, at least not every aspect of it. And that many of the people in these groups are not healthy themselves and therefore I shouldn't always trust their judgements, motives or advice.

I am very naive when it comes to people I noticed. If it's not obvious, I think that everyone has always just the best intentions and only talks about things they understand, are truthful and reliable. Which is not how people really are in general.
I've had it many times that people would tell me very much what to do because it was what helped them. Or they projected their own problems and needs on me. The possibility that I might not feel or think the same or that some things don't help me the way they helped them was then seen as me being in denial or untruthful. If you think about it, it's pretty ignorant but I understand how they might have come to that conclusion with AA selling itself as a one size fits all solution.
If often been told to read the BB and to focus at whatever paragraph I can't relate to. Because it's the things we can't relate to that are the real hidden truths about ourselves. If I can't relate to being manipulative or having low self esteem, then this must mean that that's what I am most afraid of admitting to myself and therefore it is true and if I don't see it, I am just in denial. It's pretty brainwashy to tell a person that whatever they cannot identify with, is true for them. This in combination with an abusive partner who accused me of being the abusive one got me completely confused about who I am and what is okay behaviour and what not. People in AA would have told me that I had somehow made him be horrible to me (and just refused to look at my part in this) or that I secretly was drawn to that side of him (which I was clearly not).

I ran into those situations again and again and didn't trust my experience and instinct that I can't talk openly about some things. And again and again I was upset by the reactions I received. Now I stopped talking to most AA people I know, which might be a bit drastic, but I think at the moment where I am mostly trying to find myself and am dealing with the emotional aftermath of my abusive relationship, it's not those people who will provide the best help. AA steps are primarily made to stop us from building resentment or self pity which would "make us drink again".

In my therapists opinion the whole program is not designed to learn to trust your own judgements but for the opposite. It's also not designed for being more assertive but the opposite. She even goes so far to saying it is a bit dated. Looking at the people who founded it and comparing it the people who go there now, shows such extreme differences in many cases that it is very unlikely that the same kind of treatment would help in all of those cases.

For now my solution to this is to just step back a little and try to find some other friends. I miss being able to talk someone and just hear their opinion and not get a BB quote or "I think a 4th step would do you some good" , "you should hand this over to your HP" or a suggestion to go to more meetings, another 12 step program or whatnot.

trailmix

First of all pathway, i'm sorry all that happened, must have been a very upsetting day for you.

The part you wrote above stands out to me.

You were feeling very uncomfortable, yet being polite. That's a problem there. Just because 3 alarm bells aren't going off in your head and you aren't hyperventilating doesn't mean you don't need to exit the room/conversation/restaurant.

I don't think you were wrong for going, it is possible it could have turned out to be a nice lunch. As soon as you knew that was not the case perhaps you could have finished up quickly and left, or just left. Why didn't you, what was holding you back?

This person, for whatever reason is not good for you, yet you politely sat there and probably thanked her for the invitation and hey, you should do that again sometime? Did you say you would look up the book and see what it's all about?

You are stuffing your feelings. Please don't do that. Please don't be polite to try to keep things smooth running and avoid ruffling others feathers, it ends up in things like - panic attacks! And no, they don't have to be hyperventilation and anxious thoughts and an actual feeling of panic, they can be an underlying feeling as well.

Do you have a therapist or psychiatrist at all? Having someone to talk to about all of this would probably be a great relief for you and a good place to vent and gain understanding about anxiety. Also, maybe this is a situation where medication is called for?

Your gut feeling on this is probably correct. By the way, how does she know that the group was helpful for you? Is she a mind reader? You left for a reason, you are an adult person with a mind of your own and you can leave any place at any time. It's insulting that she even said that actually, based on the fact that you chose to leave. But that's her circus and her monkeys.

trailmix

I have never been to an AA meeting, so I'm just throwing my opinion out there for what it's worth!

In reading your post it makes me think that AA is working just as it should.

Aside from alcoholism, have you ever been in a position where your you are questioning your judgement? Some emotionally traumatic situation perhaps, a family problem, a break up with someone and you find that you are questioning your judgement because you know you are not in a strong or right thinking place? So you seek counsel from a trusted friend, family or a group (or therapist).

You may not see it but their support is supposed to help you to fly, not to stay stuck in an AA meeting 7 days a week forever. You are now starting to fly and maybe their support and that foundation helped get you there or at least helped you stay sober while you got there?

FireSprite

This is the most important part of your post.

Have you read much about the gut-brain? There are about 6 great links in this thread:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...instincts.html (Listening to our gut instincts)

In my personal experience, I had to retrain myself to notice these signs & signals from my body because I'd gotten so out of balance with hearing myself. (not that I realized that - it was more like, I didn't know what I didn't know?)

Maybe that was a new-ish feeling for some reason - a tickle instead of a scream, for example. Now you KNOW what it means, so next time, you can recognize it for it is, faster & react accordingly. Even faster the next time. As I continue to adjust & grow, so have my internal signs. DD & I have been learning muscle testing & that rocks my world - being able to tune in to my 100% accurate internal magic 8 ball? Yes, please.

kevlarsjal2

I don't think this perspective is very popular in AA. There are a ton of people who have years or even decades of sobriety and they still go almost every day. It's often said that the AA program and is a way of life and nothing where you graduate from. And most people seem to interpret it the way that you have to go for the rest of your life, the more meetings the better. And that as soon as you find yourself unhappy, it must be the so called "alcoholic mind" that wants more than it can have, is chronically irritable, discontent and restless, that you have been bringing the problems onto you by behaving like a typical alcoholic (manipulating, controlling, being selfish, etc) and so on.

I do often not trust my own judgement when it comes to people and social situations because I am somewhat blind for those things. Especially the relationship with my ex was a constant not trusting my judgement as he always told me the opposite was true. I felt controlled, he said I was controlling him, I felt manipulated, he said I was manipulative, I felt scared to say how I feel because he would shout at me and said that he didn't feel comfortable saying how he feels because I dislike his shouting.
So if I have a misunderstanding or someone gets upset, I do ask others what they think.

I'm not sure I really understood your post. Are you saying that AA is supposed to make people question their judgements and that is what it did so it is working like it should?

Then I would agree with you. But the thing is that they don't sell it like this but as a cure for everything. And questioning my judgement again and again while trying to trust my own judgements more again is somewhat counterproductive I think.
It is especially difficult in dealing with the abuse by my expartner because I was really far off from trusting my judgements as he had excuses for all his actions, blamed then on me and twisted things around.

biminiblue

Trailmix, AA is not a very good place for abuse victims. AA is set up to run on fear and control and and NOT trusting ones' own judgement but on trusting and being dependent upon what the sponsors and long-timers say. No questioning "what works."

It is a bad place for abuse victims. I figured that out very quickly in talking and listening. It is about surrendering all you know to other people who are not very healthy themselves, who know nothing about "boundaries" and being told that any problems are of my own doing.

I went to AA after I had already gone through therapy and my own ego was intact already but if I had gone there directly after some abusive situation it would have been disastrous.

I'm with PTF and Kev here - AA isn't all warm and fuzzy and supportive, it's about removing the "victim" status from people. That might work with some who are just your basic narcissists and garden variety sociopathic alcoholics, but it can be really destructive for actual victims who haven't yet processed their abuse. It causes victims to doubt their own thinking, much like most codependents do naturally. Codependency/Al Anon is about the complete opposite as far as Group Conscience/general approach. At least in my experience.

Mango212

Being of service is to be a part of good, healthy actions. Such as making coffee, washing cups, vacuuming or folding chairs at AA or Al-anon meetings. Not all these, not all the time. To pitch in and be a part of.

Being of service can be more, such as being a part of business meetings or holding
an official position in the group for a short period of time. These are all meant to be shared responsibilities that have a natural flow and rotation. In the ebb and flow of things, it helps newcomers to have something to do and be a part of. It can be a healthy routine to bring someone back when they commit to helping out for a few weeks. In Al-anon it can become great opportunities in saying yes, and also in saying no.

Al-anon and open AA meetings worked very well for me mixed in with counseling from domestic abuse help centers.

"God of my own understanding."

No one gave me advice. They showed me what worked for them, and what didn't.

I kept hearing "take what you like and leave the rest." I love both parts of that!

This I posted yesterday:
Choosing to live with laughter, goodness, lightness.

I learned how to have lightness, laughter, fun and joy all while dealing with alcoholism through Al-anon.

Many paths to healing.

kevlarsjal2

Thank you so much for this, Bim! This rang so true to me and I felt finally understood in my struggles with talking AA people about my abusive relationship. It is so good to hear that I am not the only one seeing it this way, I feel such a wave of relief, I am slightly teary.

I would've not dared putting it in such direct words but it is exactly how I felt about AA since the beginning pretty much. I started going when I was already half a year sober after I stopped seeing my therapist who suggested my ex (by then partner) was abusive. My ex was of course very supportive of this decision and he welcomed me doing the AA work (him being a "recovering" alcoholic himself who didn't "need" the program or the steps as he said he is not that kind of alcoholic, him having not ever in his life treated anyone badly and therefore not having any amends to make etc.). So while he was already telling him that all our issues were my fault, that I am the bad one and he is the good one, that I am just to sick to see it, AA was "helping" me to see it this way too. When he was unreliable or unhelpful, it taught me that I am not perfect either and that I am being controlling when I expect him to do the dishes just because I want it that way. That when he went on a trip we planned to do together on his own without discussing it with me, I said I was disappointed we didn't discuss such things as a couple especially since he would not be okay with me doing things on my own, then I learned again that I was controlling and had no right to expect him to discuss these things with me. Which he also told me, that I was just being selfish in not wanting him to have fun on his own (that wasn't a problem for me, just I think when you're in a relationship you don't just suddenly go on holiday on your own when it was the plan to do it together). And when I wanted to discuss things with him that upset me, he broke up with me and gave me the silent treatment for days, weeks or longer until I apologised for everything, saying how it was my fault. How I was being selfish in not allowing him to do whatever he wants and how I do now see that finding his behaviour (insulting, shouting, breaking up, throwing things around, lying, passive aggressiveness) hurtful or scary was just me being oversensitive and how I even provoked it with my nagging and blaming (meaning I said I didn't like it when he lied to me or that I was disappointed he would not make bigger decisions together as a couple etc.) and that I will be working on that and that I learned I can not take my insecurities (is he treating me badly? ) and problems (me not finding it easy to deal with the silent treatment was turned into me having abandonment issues, him lying about being tested for STDs which he wasn't was turned into me being jealous) out on him and have to deal with them myself. So basically AA helped me see things his way, that he isn't to blame for anything and that I have no right to feel like a victim and if I do, it's just me being in my disease and in denial, escaping responsibility. Which then helped him to make me feel like I was responsible for his abuse. Which is what he wanted all along. Perfect.

biminiblue

Kev, did you grow up in an alcoholic family or one where there was a lot of control or other neglect? I know PTF did, and I certainly did - when your every action and thought has to be carefully measured to keep from getting yelled at, beaten or thrown out - it will mess with anyone's ability to trust their emotions or their own thinking.

Then I go to AA where I'm told it's all stinkin' thinkin'. Wait. Which part of it?

I better stop. I'm not a fan.

trailmix

I understand what you are saying and as I mentioned I have never been to an AA meeting (and i'm not an alcoholic) so I am absolutely no expert.

I know what I've read, that's it.

I have read that AA's focus is getting people to stop drinking. They are not therapists they are not counsellors.

One size does not fit all in recovery, be that codependency, addiction, recovery from abuse or whatever the case may be and you all have a right to make decisions which help you, absolutely (and you have, which is great!).

trailmix

Yes, basically that's what I was saying and I agree with you, having that support initially is really helpful, constantly reconsidering your judgement is not helpful, at some point you need to start trusting it, trying it out. But if the group at AA is not the most trustworthy source for other issues (besides alcoholism) then no, that's not a good place to share that.

I guess what I am saying is the focus should be on you and what you get out of it. If that means simply getting alcohol out of your life so you can say - ok that's somewhat under control, what do I need to work on here?

For you that might be abuse or grief support or therapy for PTSD or an anxiety and/or depression support group.

kevlarsjal2

My family wasn't very harmonic, there was a lot of arguing, my dad drank too much quite regularly which has gotten worse over time. One thing I know for sure is that both my parents are emotionally immature and especially my mum is very self centred and can't really understand that I am not her. It was never the case that I constantly had to be on guard and watch my every step. It happened sometimes that my dad was yelling when it wasn't necessary but that wasn't that often.

Generally I trust my thinking when it comes to pretty much anything but social interaction. I trust myself with financial decisions, decisions about my life, with the way I decorate my home, how I dress or what I cook or what I think about a book/film/etc and I'm not much influenced by other's opinions on such things and don't care about their opinions either. The only thing I have no clue about and am very easily confused about is social interaction.

I think my problem is mostly that I am often a bit blind to other's intentions, their moods or what is said between the lines. At the same time I tend to be very direct and people often read things into what I say, thinking there is something between the lines, when there isn't. So I think it's this blindness that makes me feel a bit insecure in my judgements. And when people tell me I was insensitive or came across as selfish I think that I have overlooked something important again or misunderstood them / expressed myself in an inappropriate way.
Also it can be difficult for me to identify my emotions (it happens very delayed) and I am often not sure what caused them so I'm open to suggestions from others. I might have Aspergers but I am not diagnosed with anything so far.

kevlarsjal2

That's a good approach I guess. What I get out of it. I hoped to find a group of supportive people who are interested in improving their lives. I didn't need AA to get sober and not either to stay sober I dare saying but this of course is partly speculation. I started going to meetings when I already had half a year of sobriety. They do say their program isn't just for not drinking but for living a happy and healthy life which sounded good to me. It seemed to work for many so I thought it must work for me too, and this is what they say too. "it works if you work it". If it doesn't work for you, it's cause you're doing it the wrong way. That's what I was told and cause it was so many people telling me this, I believed it.

Not drinking hasn't really been an issue for me since I understood and accepted that drinking will not get me anywhere good. The main reason why I still go to the meetings and reach out to AA people is because I have not many social contacts left besides them. But this is already something I want to change, just not sure how.

FireSprite

I had not even considered this particular dynamic in recovery, but as soon as I read the quoted part I thought, "of course it isn't....."

Thank you all for sharing - it helped me to learn something new.

aliciagr

I think you can do this as long as you understand that other people CAN understand you, and you CAN fit in to other social groups and activities. I used to have a happy social life with friends and family, was part of some organizations and went to events, and outings just for fun. Then we moved. My husband relapsed. I isolated.

And then it happened - I felt like I didn't fit in with normal people anymore. Had some encouragement to think this way also.. have you heard the Normies cant understand line ? but it just wasn't true. I had to get out of my own head and back to finding me and getting involved in things I enjoyed and people who shared the same interests, values and the like. Feeling stigmatized because of my husbands issues, the abusive situation I dealt with was keeping a wall between me and the rest of the world.

aliciagr

Pathwaytofree,

I was always taught that if you don't have your health, then you don't have anything. This goes for both physical and emotional health.

Sounds like you had a very bad experience from your time in the AA group this woman is part of. My thought is that the trauma simply resurfaced as you were talking. Through self awareness you were able to monitor your thoughts and feelings as you were responding to her, but there was a deeper storm brewing: thoughts, feelings, memories, the sense of someone trying to manipulate you..

You did the right thing by going to the ER and Im happy that you were ok !

My husband (who is in recovery) had something like this happen recently. He has been trying to reconcile with his codependant mother and after a family therapy session - he began to breakdown and had to seek medical help. As a spouse : just like your husband, I felt like the stress might be too much for him, but it was his decision to interact, and I respected that. I stood by him at the doctors office, and will continue to offer my support and love as he works through all these emotions and life lessons. I hope your husband is there for you too.

Therapy has been helping my husband. He went no contact with his mom again simply due to his emotional health. He took the experience and is trying to learn from it.

You mentioned "being of service to others". What does that mean to you? When you learn about this step, does it mention having limits, personal boundaries, fitting it in to the totality of your life as a whole ?

Im not sure what I would have done if Id been in your shoes at the lunch with friend. I would like to think that I would have said to her that I came to catch up with HER, whats going on in HER life, and share whats going on in MINE. Apart from AA, meetings, and groups.
I also think, knowing myself - that I would have viewed her manipulative pulls as signs that I was right about my initial feelings to leave that group. Its sounds like she was trying to pull you back in. I probably would have outright said: if that's why you wanted to meet me, then lets just finish lunch and part ways as friends wishing each other well. And please don't contact me again.

hopeful4

Panic attacks are horrible. I am sorry!

I would simply explain that it was triggering for you, and I would not meet up with her again, ever.

Big hugs!

Pathwaytofree

Thanks for this post, Biminblue. I didn't mean for this thread to be about AA but it's interesting reading people's experiences.

Kevlarsjal2 It sounds like you have a really good therapist. I found that once I listened to mine over what people in AA told me, it helped a lot. People in AA are well meaning but they don't understand our individual experiences because they're projecting their own experiences onto others. It's human nature. Therapists don't do that.

Pathwaytofree

I remember when biminiblue first posted something similar, and everything suddenly clicked for me.