Pathwaytofree

That is very true. That's sort of why I was put off a bit when my friend suggested I think of all the good that came out of my former AA group. It's hard to think that when I almost died the day after my 5th step and a ridiculously and unnecessarily long and harsh 4th step. So yes it did take away my physical and emotional health, even though in the end I'm a better person for it. But at what price?????

I know this won't make sense based on what I just wrote above, but my experience wasn't all bad. It's just that the bad was very detrimental to my health. That's a good point that the trauma likely resurfaced as I was talking. I hadn't thought of that. I wasn't emotional while speaking, but I guess just bringing the memory back up was difficult.

I really like how you explained this. I don't think she meant harm, but it was what she was saying plus the memories of my experience.

Thank you!! I am glad I went, too. And I do hope the hospital calls me to do a survey. My doctor's office called today, too, to see how I was feeling, and they were super encouraging, validating, and supportive. Perhaps there is finally a shift going on for those of us with mental health issues to break the shame and blame. I think it helped, too, that I didn't add to my own anxiety with my own shame and self-blame over having an anxiety attack. I was probably an easier patient now to deal with then I used to be.

I am sorry your husband had that experience. Recovery and growth can sometimes be painful, but it is so worth it. My therapist told me how much I've grown since I started to work with her. I am glad your husband sought help. There's nothing to be embarrassed about. This wasn't my first time, either. But this time I handled it so much better.

Your husband is lucky to have you!! Sometimes guilt, people-pleasing, minimizing, thinking "I got this", etc. makes us push ourselves to be in situations that we probably should have said a polite but firm "no" to. My husband early on didn't understand certain family dynamics, but as he saw/heard stuff with his own eyes/ears, he began to understand more. He is supportive and also sees how hard I'm working at this. I also know the more I learn to advocate for myself, the less he has to advocate for me.

Please tell your husband there is absolutely no shame in going no contact with a parent. I went VLC (very low contact) but it was actually recommended at the time I go no contact. If I hadn't done this, I would have never been able to work on myself and grow as much as I have.

Please let your husband know that nothing his mom does or says or his fault. He can't change her, he didn't cause it, and he can't control it (that's Al-anon stuff right there). If anyone thinks it's weird that he's NC with his mother, or starts to act judgy, tell him to stand tall in his truth!! Calmly just smile and say "it's complicated" and then change the subject. I wish I had been able to do this years ago, but I couldn't. I have a better relationship with my family now, but it took a lot of work in AA (yes I said AA) and therapy to get here. Just because *I* changed, didn't mean they'd change. But once I changed how I was when I interacted with them, things changed. But I still am rather low contact for my own sanity and peace of mind. I know they know not what they do. I accept it and have stopped trying to make rational sense out of irrational behavior. It's taken me a looooong time to get here.

I have to think about this more. Unfortunately, no, it doesn't mention limits, personal boundaries, etc. That stuff I've learned from my therapist and stuff online. There's only 1 or 2 sentences in the entire big book that would be indirectly related to that. Being of service to others from what I was taught in my former group would be akin to Mother Teresa. Just my experience....
In hindsight I do wish I had said that. I talked about this in depth with my therapist and I see what I could have done or said differently. It's a learning experience, and I'm sort of grateful I had it so now I know what to do next time it happens.

This is where it gets a little tricky. I am not sure if she was being intentionally manipulative, if that makes sense. She's a pleasant person. But I think she's caught up in this cult-like group and so was just wanting to bring me back there, since I used to go quite often and then stopped. But I got no sense that she was meeting me out of concern like "hey where you've been, are you ok, how's your recovery going?" I felt it was to find out why I left, and to bring me back in. I like what you wrote. However, I would be concerned it would make her defensive. Then again, her response is not my business. I have to think about this a little more.

Pathwaytofree

Thank you for summing that up perfectly, hopeful4!!

I did tell her that the conversation was triggering for me.

I plan to not meet up with her or anyone else from that group. I wish them well, but from a distance. They did help me. I don't mean this to be a black and white thing. But as I've said (although I'm not sure I've been clear) the bad outweighed the good and was harmful for me. That was my experience. I've known 2 other people to have a similar experience. So perhaps we're in the minority. But that doesn't matter. In hindsight, I should've listened to my therapist but the fear of relapse was pounded into me, that I was afraid to leave the group. Once my therapist said "AA isn't the only way", it clicked. I still go to AA, but my current sponsor is much different.

Again I didn't mean this to be about AA. I meant it to be about having a panic attack because I didn't advocate for myself or heed my inner warnings. I am glad I had this experience, because next time I will know better!!

Hugs !

trailmix

You know pathway, in thinking about this, this post is actually about the same thing your post about your sponsees was about.

You do not need permission to take care of yourself. You can say what you mean (just don't say it mean).

It's not easy! It's not easy when you have a pattern of putting others needs before yours all the time, it's something you will have to work on and it seems really contrary to your nature at first.

Just be sure you are being kind and helpful to yourself as well.

Have you read co-dependant no more?

Bernadette

Hey Pathway--
I'm an ER nurse and we see many people having just had a panic attack and yes their pressure can be quite high. Any stress on the body raises bp, so people can come in with elevated bp from a car accident, serious injury, witnessing a trauma or seeing a loved one injured, or having had a panic attack.

Also if a person already has high blood pressure their pressure might be quite high under any of those circumstances.

Lots of evidence that your "lunch" was super stressful! Your body had to work hard to override your mind's attempts to play down the threat you actually felt from this person.

Good on you for seeking medical attention to make sure it wasn't anything cardiac, which doesn't mean those palpitations or tightness in the chest weren't real! Panic causes all those very real and alarming physiological reactions in the body. It is very scary.

Peace,
B.

Pathwaytofree

Thank you, trailmix. This was a helpful post.

It makes me wish there was some sorta combined AA-ACOA-Alanon program out there.

I have thumbed through Codependent No More but really need to sit down and read it thoroughly.

Pathwaytofree

Hi Bernadette,
First let me say thank you for all you do as a nurse--especially an ER nurse.

Ah! So that's why the nurse thought it interesting when I told him I usually am hypotensive. My top number was between 60-70 points higher than it usually is. It didn't give me a headache, though. I'll have to remember that stress can cause high blood pressure.

I can't imagine how someone with already hypertension having it go even higher due to a panic attack. Wow. :-(

That's an interesting way of describing it. And you know what? I did have the awareness in the moment that she was the "threat". It was weird. I sensed that no matter if I sat there taking meditative breaths, have a glass of water, sit, etc., the fact that she was still "there" was going to mean I wasn't going to get better. I had some other physiological stuff going on too. I hadn't realized the mind-body connection.

Thank you for saying that! Now it's 3 for 3! Everyone in the hospital, my doctor's office, and now you said that. :-)

Lesson learned: to avoid another panic attack, I need to not only have the awareness of my warning signals, but I need to always heed them. I have done so in the recent past, so I know I can do it.

Thanks you, Bernadette!!

aliciagr

Very good point. There are usually many paths that can be taken and each will lead to the same destination. But when I was feeling lost/confused, I didn't know what path to take. I regret some of my choices but not sure how to explain it. You know how people sometimes say, "going through all that brought me here to this happier place, and let me grow into the person I am today." I cant change the past and the things that hurt me/weren't positive, but I need to make peace with it and use what I learned to take better care of myself and make healthier choices in the future.


All the professionals Ive dealt with in terms of myself, and my husband have been kind, supportive, encouraging, had a overall positive attitude in how much help there is for depression, anxiety, substance abuse. I feel it helps me to always think in terms of "a person" who has a mental health issue, a substance abuse issue. All these things can be treated. Im not sure how it was years ago, but I know from all I hear a lot of progress has been made. Hope it continues.

I think this is something to be really proud of. Things happen and how we deal with them - its like a pop quiz. Have you been learning and growing? Yes, the proof is right there !

Aww thank you. I was a mess before I started therapy. I was a fish out of water with what I had to deal with in regards to his addiction, behavior changes, and the family dynamics with the inlaws. I disappointed myself in how I reacted and became lost. I was ashamed of myself and that put me on a downward spiral without him even participating. We also did family therapy that was suggested and it helped us talk about some of the tougher issues and feelings. It was hard work, but its brought us closer. I did a screen shot of what you shared for him. He said it was thoughtful. After reading more about ACOA myself, I think he would benefit from exploring it too.

Im clearly not an expert in 12 step, but I see a contrast that is confusing me.

Does being of service to others include things outside of the program? or is it mostly being part of the program: setting up chairs, speaking at a meeting and sharing experience, strength, hope for others to hear, sponsoring others? (because I have always heard the program does not believe in promotion, but relies on attraction)

But does this also extend to being of service to your family, kids, church, community through charity, volunteer work?

Ive always heard charity starts at home. Which to me means take care of self and then work my way outward to those who are part of my world and perimeter. Give what I can without damaging my own health, sanity, important relationships like a marriage, parenting.

I didn't really learn my concept from the programs, more just how I was raised by my parents.

But I find some confusion also because in Alanon from my experience one of the key ideas put forth is - don't do anything for anyone if they can do it for their self. Otherwise its enabling and preventing the person from reaching within and figuring it out alone. But then Alanon is geared for those who are codependent and may have no limits, boundaries on what they give, do, or wrap themselves up in other people.

So I cant see why AA would encourage people to give to a degree like Mother Teresa as that would seem extreme and self sacrificing.

A lot confuses me on this topic. Because also Ive heard it said in Alanon settings that its not ok for a family member to do certain things, but its fine for another person in recovery to do it. I feel like its simply based on the premise that the programs want to encourage a dependence on the individual groups. Addicts helping addicts, and others cant understand so stay away. Ive never really accepted this premise however. I simply believe in having boundaries and staying true to my own personal beliefs.

Here is an example. On that tv show MOM. The other day I saw one where a woman came to the group after being abused by her BF and high on drugs. She left all her stuff there and had no place to stay. So the group told her it was fine they would all work together and she could stay with each of them and they would help her get her clothes or buy her new.

But see, in Alanon I think that would be viewed as codependent and enabling behavior. I personally find it all confusing. For example I think its ok to help someone in small doses if they are trying to change their life, seek help, and you have the means of time/money. But it has to be done in a measured way to see if the person is using it to improve their life and become independent and healthy.

Ive probably confused you more now. Ive always had questions about this topic.

Its hard to judge another persons intent. It doesn't sound like she was really listening to you, but had a goal of encouraging you to come back. But if she is all in' with her group and felt that you left because you weren't getting it' then she may have been trying to help return you to the fold where you could be put back on track. Its interesting to think through, but your right, how it made you feel is whats most important at this point.

Pathwaytofree

This is really great insight that personally took me a long time to learn.

You are very lucky. Speaking as someone who has dealt with depression, anxiety, and addiction for quite some time, that has not been my case. I'm not sure if it's my growth that makes me easier to deal with now, or if times are changing. I still think a stigma exists out there, though.

Give yourself credit for seeking therapy. Cut yourself some slack for how you reacted at first. This was all new to you. Let go of that shame.

I'm assuming you mean couple's therapy vs family therapy? I would hope you don't mean family therapy, as I can't imagine that going well with your inlaws and all. I think couple's therapy is a great idea. I used to think years ago only couples on the verge of divorce went to couple's therapy. But I know now it can be used to improve the relationship and as a springboard for better communication skills and a place to talk out feelings.

I'm glad he found it thoughtful. I know, however, that it comes from my own personal experience. But I thought I'd share it in case it'd help him. FOO issues can run very deep and be difficult to deal with.

ACOA is where I got my start. I wish I had stayed there. Their ACA Fellowship text is very helpful. I don't have their step book. One day when I feel even stronger in my own recovery, I'd like to do the steps via ACA. If I could give your husband another suggestion that I learned in hindsight--focus less on how his parents treated him, acted, etc in the past and focus on how he can respond/act/take care of himself in the present. Also it's helpful to realize that any negative stuff they said to him are all lies based on their warped truths. Our parents' unresolved issues from the past effects how they parent us.

My apologies. It's just *my* experience. People in AA have different experiences. I'm having a much better experience with my new sponsor.

To some AAs, service includes what you mentioned. But in my former AA group, service also meant being kind, loving, forgiving, tolerant, patient with everyone, including spiritually sick people. It meant putting their needs ahead of your own.

Yes that's correct. AA does not believe in promotion. It relies on attraction. One alcoholic telling their story to another alcoholic. It's a miraculous thing that occurs when we do that. It brings a glimmer of hope to a hopeless person.

Well, yes, in my former AA group it did. It makes sense in a way--when we help others, we get out of our own head. But my personal experience was my former sponsor pushed this too much to my own detriment. It's hard to explain. She did not understand where I was coming from.

That's a really healthy way to look at it. If we don't take care of ourselves, how can we possibly take care of others?

Sounds like you were raised by healthy parents.

I don't have experience with Alanon. I can see their points. However, I think there's a benefit in throwing a drowning person a rope, if they are flailing around so much in the water that they can't see that it's there. Or give a person who is lost a roadmap and turn them into the right direction. I'm not sure if Alanon does that. I do agree that the "disease" of the Alanon-er is that he/she tends to wrap themselves up too much into fixing other people. I think the best thing someone in Alanon can do, is to give the AA-er confidence that they have the ability deep within them to help themselves. I started to grow a lot once I began to believe that, with the help of my therapist and new psychiatrist. My former AA sponsor wanted me to rely on God instead of relying on my own personal strength. I probably should stop here because I don't want to hurt my SR AA friends who have helped me tremendously. This is just my experience, that's all. Nothing is right or wrong.

It's been my experience in my former home group/former sponsor/ that this is the message. But other AA meetings/sponsors are different.

I'm not sure if my understanding here is correct, but I think one AA person helping another AA person is more "equal" than a family member helping the alcoholic. I can't find the words to explain this, but to me it does make sense. As long as it's not enabling, it's ok for an alcoholic to help another alcoholic, within reason. We help them stay sober and recover. Family members can't really do that, but they can be supportive and encouraging in other ways. Maybe someone else can explain this better than I can.

I understand what you're saying. It sort of should be addicts helping addicts in the beginning, but then dependence is supposed to be on God. I wasn't taught in my former AA group to have boundaries or stay true to my own personal beliefs. However, my new AA group/sponsor teaches me this and is very supportive of this, as is my therapist. The last contact I had with my former AA group and sponsor involved my own personal beliefs being basically laughed at in a condescending way. Again, I don't fault them because without them I wouldn't have grown by leaps and bounds like I did. But this is where I'm at now.

Personally I don't think TV does an accurate job portraying 12 step groups.

I don't have Alanon experience but wow I would like to think that in an emergency situation like a woman leaving an abusive boyfriend, someone would help her out. Then again, maybe they're thinking if they help her out, would she be able to stand on her own two feet and help herself out, or constantly go to other people to help her. I really am not one to say. I can't speak for Alanon because I don't have the Alanon experience.

I absolutely agree with this.

Nope, not at all. You've brought up some very interesting points. Hopefully people from Alanon or people from both AA/Alanon can help clarify things.

She's a good person. I don't fault her. I don't think she really understood what I was trying to say or what my experience was, because she had a different experience. But I need to take care of myself right now. The fact that our conversation caused a physiological panic attack is telling, and that's what I'm going to focus on for the time being. And I'm going to focus on what my therapist says to me. Maybe things will feel differently in the future.

When I had a panic attack a couple of years ago, my former sponsor said coldly that it was because I didn't ask God into the situation--it was my own fault. Blaming someone for a physiological panic attack is not what I believe the role of a sponsor should be.