Struggling with My Codependent Mother

Old 09-04-2018, 10:16 AM
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Struggling with My Codependent Mother

We hear a lot about AdultChildrenofAlcoholics... why do we almost never talk about AdultChildrenofCodependents ?

So, many of us here understand having an alcoholic parent. My Dad was an alcoholic. He died as a result of his unhealthy lifestyle. He was not a violent man, he loved us, provided for us and protected us, but he was a broken man.. and pretty checked-out as a parent. My mother was definitely THEE parent. I don't harbour any resentments towards my Dad, I cherish the good memories and have learned from the not good ones. I feel I have a full understanding of his demons and why they existed. I wish he had gotten help for the underlying issues, but he didn't, and that can not be changed now. I am at peace where my Dad is concerned.

My mother is a different situation. I am so frustrated with her recently. And it seems to get worse every time I talk to her. I've mentioned many times that she is a raging codependent. I know a few people do not care for that label, but I really don't know what else you could call it. She embodies the word. There is not a single codie trait that she does not display.

I honestly believe my mother's codependency affected me a lot more negatively then my father's alcoholism. I didn't grow up to be an alcoholic, I grew up to be a codependent, married to an alcoholic. This isn't to say I blame my mother, I don't. I know she did/does the best she can based on her upbringing and what she has been exposed to. I get all that, I'm not bashing her.But I am so frustrated with her behaviour.

Last year she started going to S.M.A.R.T. meetings and she loves them! I was excited and hopeful that she would maybe start seeing aspects of her life she could approach differently. Unfortunately, as she doesn't consider herself a codependent anymore "because her alcoholic husband is gone", she hasn't seen this as something she needs to work on. (She doesn't seem to realize that codependency doesn't just mean being married to an alcoholic .... hahahah.. ahhh Mum!)... I realize that whatever work she is doing on herself is her business, her side of the street. We are both grown women, living on opposite coasts. I don't need to worry about how much she worries...or what she concerns herself with, or gets angry about, or what situations she injects herself into, who she is judging or who she is trying to "help"... It's her choice to drive herself nuts with worry.. I get that. I do not live in F.O.G anymore. If she wants to be a martyr, I don't have to attend that party.

She does try to involve me. I've gotten very good at not dancing that dance, not with her and not for her. I won't be codependent to her codependence. I absolutely refuse to enable her addiction of codependence. But she keeps trying! She keeps filling me in on all the details of this, that and the other...that she has no business being a part of. She is getting worse! She has started injecting a righteousness and an entitlement into the relationships with people she is trying to manage and control... and then plays the inconvenienced victim when people don't rise 100% to her expectations. She is constantly annoyed that she "has" to help people all the time.

I usually avoid engaging with her when she babbles this kind of stuff at me... yesterday she dragged someone we both love into the chaos. This person has M.S., is disabled and just lost a loved one. My hackles went up and I responded. She was being so unreasonable. I should not have reacted, but I did, I pointed out what she was being unreasonable about. I poked holes in her "reasonings" and I probably made her feel quite guilty by pointing out some cold hard facts. I was shocked at the audacity of what she was expecting... totally gobsmacked. I am now waiting for the fall out. I know I should not have engaged.

I know I can't change the way she behaves. That's not my job. I can realize how sick it is, I can be glad I no longer display that behavior and that my life is no longer on that same trajectory. I am glad I have been able to talk openly and honestly with my daughter about the codependent mistakes I made as she and her brother were growing up. I hope one day my son gives me the same opportunity. I have faith that the cycle will stop. I have to believe that.

I am travelling to visit my mum (for the first time in more then a year) at the end of next month. I am already getting anxious and annoyed. I've already made some alternative plans so I don't spend the entire two weeks gritting my teeth and chomping at the bit. I don't want to feel this way about my mum. She's getting older, she is in her 70s... I want to feel tender towards her, I want to want to spend time with her, but she makes me feel crazy. I don't want to be around her. This makes me very upset, I don't want to feel this way towards her.

So why does my Mum's codependency behaviour bother me more then my Dad's drinking did? Is it because I can relate to the codependency and don't want to be around that dysfunction anymore? Is it because it is still in real time? Is it because I'm blaming her for molding me in her image?( I like to think I was beyond this at this point in my own recovery).... And how the heck am I going to deal with all this negativity I'm feeling towards my mother whom I love so deeply?

*sigh* I don't expect any answers, I think I just needed a place to pour out my feelings where maybe someone would understand what I'm feeling...even though people rarely talk about the codependents in their lives...

Alcoholism affects us all so negatively
So does Codependence
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Old 09-04-2018, 12:10 PM
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I see a lot of similarities in our stories. My mother is committed to her codependence more so than anything else in her life. She's also more blind to it & all it's correlating behaviors than anything else. Worse is that my sister seems to be determined to follow her horrendous path, leaving me completely disconnected from my family in order to keep healthy boundaries for myself & DD.

I know that for me, my father got sober & made active amends for our situation before his death. He & I spoke at length about his addictions & poor choices & consequences.

The difference is that he took accountability in a way she still refuses to consider. She's given that blanket apology of being "sorry for everything" but refuses to change going forward (or really see how/why it's necessary). And even that apology was sort of spit out in haste because she's so uncomfortable with apologizing. She owes my husband an apology right now but chooses to choke on those words instead.

Last time we spoke to her even DD wanted to know why she makes everything (like basic convo) SO hard? It's almost like she's incapable of focusing on anything positive or forward-moving. Every time we try to turn a conversation toward something good, her frustration is obvious & borders on anger & she stays restless until she can bend the convo back into some grievance or complaint.

Her way of managing life is to internalize everything & hold tightly to her sense of Victimization. She speaks Wound-ology & as long as you are coddling her ever-increasing aches & pains, you're in good graces with her. Mind you - her physical problems continue to ramp up in direct relation to her emotional internalization so she's getting sicker & more physically incapable every single day.... and she's only in her early 60's.... so when I played this tape forward I knew I would struggle for decades to come if I didn't find a way to put my foot down now. She feels that I don't make enough time to help her out in life - I should be carving time out of my evenings & weekends to help her in whatever ways she needs.

But - wait, that's also been my entire life up to a couple of years ago when I had my AHA moments around this issue. The "thing" needing my immediate attention may change but she/they have always "needed" from me in ways that cross boundaries for most people.

When I try to explain things like how inappropriate is was for my father to sit me down at 19 & show me how to manage the household because he was dying & felt that my mother would break down & be unable to do it herself..... how he basically told me that her grief superseded my own & that my job was to be there for her...... (She wasn't even 40 at the time - with 2 teen daughters) .....she got huffy & said, "you know!!?? Other families just call that playing to their strengths when they just help each other out like that!!" That's not what this was AT ALL.

She also has a very twisted memory - she essentially blocked out or edited every memory that displays her in a bad light or makes her uncomfortable. (likely she recorded the memories "wrong" to begin with as a defense mechanism) So when she brings up something ridiculous that is SO far out of line with reality, I can't catch my jaw fast enough before it shatters on the floor. Triggers are everywhere in situations like this - and while she's laughing & elbowing me, thinking she's sharing a bonding memory, I'm rabidly trying to find a way to sidestep it or correct it without making her feel badly about the "real" memory. I come off like the bad guy because, god, I can't even LAUGH about stuff anymore??

The only thing that gives me peace is Limited-to-No Contact. She refuses to hear me & I refuse to sacrifice my daughter on the altar of my mother's dysfunction, because here's the thing that goes unsaid: She views her history of sexual abuse to be far worse than anything I've had to deal with in life so she is constantly judging my issues as "not as damaging" or "less-than" her own & by that logic, I don't really have anything to complain about at all. In her opinion (said in almost these words) it's time for me to "just get over it already".
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Old 09-04-2018, 12:24 PM
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ACoA. Never thought it applied to me until I wound up at a meeting one day. I thought I was going to an Al-anon, yet went to a different meeting place where an ACoA meeting was. No coincidence.

The opening was read and when they said "Adult Children of Alcoholics and Other Dysfunctional Families" I felt right at home.

Keep an open mind. Healing happens in unexpected ways. As I have more fun with life, the less other people's toxicity affects me.
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Old 09-04-2018, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by FireSprite View Post
Triggers are everywhere in situations like this - and while she's laughing & elbowing me, thinking she's sharing a bonding memory, I'm rabidly trying to find a way to sidestep it or correcting it without making her feel badly about the "real" memory. I come off like the bad guy because, god, I can't even LAUGH about stuff anymore??
Oh boy, do I get that!

My mother has recently taken to telling me family secrets. Of course they are all from my Dad's side of the family and the people involved are all dead... these stories do not enhance my life and they do not explain any family issues.. they are just salacious drivvel. No reason what-so-ever do I need to know these things, but she relays them to me in a high and mighty manner as though she wants me to think less of my Dad's family now that I am "old" enough to know the truth. It's not my dead relatives I am disappointed in MUM... uggggg

She also blames all the issues my Dad had on his family... when I used to try and talk to her, by somewhat agreeing, but pointing out how his parents were also very damaged by their FOOs, she nods like she understands and then goes right back to crap talking my Dad's family... talking about how they should have taken responsibility, changed and been better blah blah blah.. when I would ask why she didn't feel the same way about my Dad... she would just sputter for a bit and then goes back to the bad-mouthing my Grandma. It's a circular discussion I will no longer engage in. Doesn't stop her from trying though....

Having limited contact with my mum has helped alleviate some of the negativity she brings in to my life. I just wish I didn't feel I need to buffer myself from her. It sucks to feel this way about an elderly lady who loves me as only my mommy can.

*sigh*
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Old 09-04-2018, 12:38 PM
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To every person who has posted on this thread so far.....I absolutely hear you....
There were some episodes with my mother, that if I were to type them out...would reduce me to another river of tears......
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Old 09-04-2018, 01:50 PM
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Hey SmallButMighty,
Wow, yeah I can really relate to your struggle.

I honestly believe my mother's codependency affected me a lot more negatively then my father's alcoholism.

THIS.

After I had been attending AlAnon for a while I started going to therapy. I came in there just assuming that all my "troubles" were related to my alcoholic father and, while I recognized my mother was codependent, I hadn't connected all the dots to how their dual dynamic had affected me. Pretty quickly the therapist was pointing out things about how my Mom's codie ways had deeply affected me and my siblings, and I spent a good deal of that year in therapy unraveling what I had learned from Mom and what it all meant.

During this time one unique thing going on in real time was my father had found recovery, so I had started recognizing how my father was making this pretty amazing transformation (he worked his AA program and really did change so much and grow) but I was recognizing that Mom was not changing, was still raging, still invested in her worry and disappointment, still acting the martyr and living in phony denial and drama land.

She went to AlAnon briefly and would brag to me about how enlightened she was compared to other women in the group, and how Dad "wasn't as bad" as some of the stories she was hearing, and my favorite: what a good job she did preventing us kids from "knowing" about Dad's drinking when we were "little." OMG. maddening. This become like, solidified in her "version of herself." That mis-remembered memory thing..she always paints herself smelling like a rose, knowing better than everyone else, denying our lived experience to my face.

I think even as I was shining the bright lights on my upbringing I just had no idea how deep my codie indoctrination had gone, because I couldn't accept her as she is for a long time.

What did I want her to change into? A Mom that suited my needs, I didn't expect perfect I just wanted authentic and open. Well, that's just not her.

I am grateful that she was sober and responsible (to the best of her ability) while I was a kid. I do want to be in her life but in keeping with the reality of who she is I have to keep it very light and superficial. I dread seeing her and I'm definitely on guard the whole time with her and do not let myself get sucked into her bs as best I can, then when I leave I feel pity for her and sad...

I have recently found that doing any kind of guided forgiveness meditation before seeing her has helped me maintain a kind of zen detachment! I like this one a lot by Tara Brach https://www.tarabrach.com/guided-for...ss-meditation/

I plan mindless activities with her, like a movie or shopping, visiting with her friends. When she tells her old stories in public company I literally just look down and stay silent and let the moment pass, she looks to me for validation, and I do not participate in that bs. This has led to a decrease in her "storytelling" in front of me.

My mother has deeply hurt me, with words and actions. But I don't wish to go no contact with her. She's an old lady now. I've accepted there will be no transformation so it's helped me to tolerate her. But there is still this big sad space for me around her....

Peace,
B.
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Old 09-04-2018, 02:14 PM
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Wow, B, it sounds like you and I have had pretty parallel experiences with our mothers. I love my mum, I'm grateful for the good mothering she provided.. but I guess I'm still upset about the codependent tendencies... I hope this wont always be the case as I advance in my own recovery from codependence.


I'd like to thank everyone who has posted... I'm grateful for this SR family that always wraps their arms around me and makes me feel understood when I'm feeling fragile. It's a relief not to feel alone in this stuff I'm working through.

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Old 09-04-2018, 02:24 PM
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I am the codependent mother. Or I was.

I absolutely have damaged my children and will spend a long time trying to heal that. It makes me so sad.

I think the reality is with the elderly the likelihood of them realizing any of this and actually changing their ways is next to none. The only thing left to do is to keep your own boundaries and not engage in it.

Give yourself a break. It's hard. Try not to focus on only that, and maybe make plans so you are both relatively busy for the visit.

Big hugs.
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Old 09-04-2018, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by hopeful4 View Post
I am the codependent mother. Or I was.

I absolutely have damaged my children and will spend a long time trying to heal that. It makes me so sad.
hopeful, we are in the same boat with this. Some times the guilt eats me up. That isn't what I want for my mum, so I don't ever tell her everything she did "wrong"... that would just be mean at this point in our lives.

Like you, I just try to be a better example to my kids, now that I know better, I do better.
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Old 09-04-2018, 02:52 PM
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It's one step forward and ten steps back. In counseling with my children is when it really became a realization. Some codie was I believe are ingrained in who we are, so it does rear it's head sometimes. That, and being so usto having to run our lives for my entire adult life. You are so usto controlling everything that it becomes second nature, and truly causes a panic when it's not possible.

I cannot ever say I am 100% better, but I can sure say I recognize it quickly, admit it, and try to correct it as best as I can.
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Old 09-04-2018, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SmallButMighty View Post
We hear a lot about AdultChildrenofAlcoholics... why do we almost never talk about AdultChildrenofCodependents ?
something Ive wondered is why are there hardly any posts where codependents discuss how they can improve their own parenting skills and not teach their kids unhealthy behaviors and ways to cope with life. (Im doing a lot of reading on parenting right now)

She has started injecting a righteousness and an entitlement into the relationships with people she is trying to manage and control... and then plays the inconvenienced victim when people don't rise 100% to her expectations. She is constantly annoyed that she "has" to help people all the time.
But.. like my Codependent Im sure she needs to help because she needs the high of feeling like she is needed, looked up to, wise, and in control of the situation which the other person couldnt handle without her, That's my MIL

And I know DIL and MIL don't always have good relationships. But my anger towards her lately is stemming from the last emotional breakdown that my husband had while trying to participate in family therapy with her. He is NC again, but its all so sad, frustrating and dysfunctional. My last convo with her left me feeling angry instead of having compassion.

She cannot accept that her behaviors had a negative impact on her parenting. Obviously if she couldn't control her emotions, or cope in healthy ways then she also couldn't teach these things to her kids. But she takes no responsibility as a parent for causing him emotional harm.

My MIL is not married to an alcoholic. The family therapist says most likely her codependency developed when her other son suffered a head injury in an accident. She became worrisome, doting, a caregiver who then turned caretaker, and then formed her identity around this and began her addiction to controlling others and needing to rule everyone around her. Her husband worked a lot and delegated the home to her - in some ways like an alcoholic leaves responsibility to the partner. I get it, I do. But its not an excuse any more than being lost in an addiction to drugs or alcohol.

My MIL attends Alanon but has not used it to recover from her own issues. She has used it in my opinion to shield herself from accepting any responsibility for how she parented her kids (the 3 C's) and for allowing herself more leeway in thinking she can set unreasonable boundaries that others have to follow or she is being victimized. (I know that not the description of a boundary but its how she uses them)

She cannot see the dysfunction that was, cannot fathom how my husband needed counseling when he was a kid, before he was 16, 17 and began to experiment with drugs. The dysfunction he grew up with caused him to seek escape and ways to cope. As an adult he is working on it, and no, isn't using drugs or alcohol now. But he struggles with depression and other issues still.

I know I can't change the way she behaves. That's not my job. I can realize how sick it is, I can be glad I no longer display that behavior and that my life is no longer on that same trajectory. I am glad I have been able to talk openly and honestly with my daughter about the codependent mistakes I made as she and her brother were growing up. I hope one day my son gives me the same opportunity. I have faith that the cycle will stop. I have to believe that.

I am travelling to visit my mum (for the first time in more then a year) at the end of next month. I am already getting anxious and annoyed. I've already made some alternative plans so I don't spend the entire two weeks gritting my teeth and chomping at the bit. I don't want to feel this way about my mum. She's getting older, she is in her 70s... I want to feel tender towards her, I want to want to spend time with her, but she makes me feel crazy. I don't want to be around her. This makes me very upset, I don't want to feel this way towards her.

So why does my Mum's codependency behaviour bother me more then my Dad's drinking did? Is it because I can relate to the codependency and don't want to be around that dysfunction anymore? Is it because it is still in real time? Is it because I'm blaming her for molding me in her image?( I like to think I was beyond this at this point in my own recovery).... And how the heck am I going to deal with all this negativity I'm feeling towards my mother whom I love so deeply?
This is much of what my husband struggles with. And we BOTH want her in our life. And she wants so badly to be a grandma to our son.
My husband has been working through feelings about her that relate not just to codependency but also to narcissism. Its rather a confusing situation for him when his mom is a mix between kind/sweet/giving - but does so when she is getting what she wants and feels the high and the needed acceptance. But then emotional, using guilt and tears, with anger if he dares to go against her, leave her out of something.

He's having a hard time with how codependency contains elements of narcissism. Its easier to sympathize over her being needy, but not her wanting to take and control for her own emotional needs.
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Old 09-04-2018, 07:33 PM
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From Aliciagr: something Ive wondered is why are there hardly any posts where codependents discuss how they can improve their own parenting skills and not teach their kids unhealthy behaviors and ways to cope with life. (Im doing a lot of reading on parenting right now)

I brought full on codie nuttiness into my first marriage, I was so smug that I hadn't married an A, thought that would prevent me from turning into my Mother. Ha ha ha, that gold level alcoholic family/codie training infects everything until you face it and deal with it! I perfectly recreated the dynamic in my parents' marriage. I wanted that man to change so badly. He was emotionally unavailable, an absent father, destroyer of financial health, unable to wake up in the morning or get anywhere on time. Could I accept any of that? No. My short-lived warped belief was I could get him to change and I hinged my happiness in the relationship on him changing.

As my marriage crumbled a good friend said to me, "If he was a drug addict I would better understand his behavior!" DING! Well that helped me understand MY behavior. Back to therapy for me. Especially because I really did not want to perpetuate that codie blueprint for the boys.

Therapy helped me release the well-rehearsed control focus, to just be more open, more loose and forgiving, and to listen more, and to be responsible to myself in my behavior.

Some books that really helped me become a better parent (boys were young when we split, 7 and 3) were "Between Parent and Child" by Haim Ginott, and "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk" by Faber and Mazlish.

I know I have made great (and bungling and imperfect) strides in breaking the codie chain with my boys. They are all grown up now. When I have my sh*t together I try to say "I love you, I'm listening." and then just listen, don't offer a different version, or advice. Just answer questions honestly. I try to show interest and ask questions. I let things be, don't rush to have every trouble or argument wrapped up neat in a bow that satisfies me! When I don't have my sh*t together and I'm wrong I apologize without being dramatic or turning the apology into a pat need for reassuring words so that I feel some immediate gratification.

I guess listening was a big big theme for me. I think as a small child in an alcoholic home I just didn't feel heard at all. My direct questions about what the heck was going on were ignored, met with anger, or answered with walls and layers of lies and cover ups. So I learned to hold it all in since no one seemed to hear me. But boy I was listening! And learning! Yikes.

Even now if my Mom could just LISTEN, genuinely listen, and show interest in what I am saying. If she genuinely apologized for any of the hurts she caused me and my siblings, for her sometimes insane behavior when we were kids, and then gave me space to forgive her, not expect an instant flurry of words of reassurance and praise. As my father recovered he made his amends to me, we had some amazing conversations, he never contradicted my experiences, he listened to painful memories and he genuinely apologized. That was very healing, and we were close until he died.

It's tough stuff anyway parenting, and every parent with any self-awareness from an A home or not has done things or said things they regret. I can still keep myself awake at night if I perseverate on regretful moments in my boys' childhood. My mom always brags how she sleeps so well, so maybe her continuing denial protects her! I'm OK with my occasional sleepless nights and authentic relationship with my kids. I just try to keep an open mind and keep it real. Forgiving myself is still the hardest and most elusive thing....
Peace,
B.
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Old 09-04-2018, 08:01 PM
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Families.
Arrrgghhh!
This is a thoughtful and thought provoking thread.
I have my own codie mom issues, as many of you know, complicated by dementia in both mom and addict sib.
The one thing I know is that no one is changing. They are in an enmeshed relationship that I cannot touch.
There is hurt, resentment, anger.
I try to rise above, and will continue to do so.
Nothin else to say, save let’s keep talking and sharing.
Knowing that others are trying to cope is comforting and helpful.
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Old 09-05-2018, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by aliciagr View Post
But.. like my Codependent Im sure she needs to help because she needs the high of feeling like she is needed, looked up to, wise, and in control of the situation which the other person couldnt handle without her, That's my MIL



She cannot accept that her behaviors had a negative impact on her parenting. Obviously if she couldn't control her emotions, or cope in healthy ways then she also couldn't teach these things to her kids. But she takes no responsibility as a parent for causing him emotional harm.
Alicia, those parts I quoted from you really ring true for me about my mother.

She needs to be needed. She can not for the life of her see that her behavior has negatively affected anyone How could it ( in her own mind) since she does everything she does from a place of love?

My mum was raised by a mentally ill mother who was emotionally and mentally abusive. I don't think she meant to be, but grandma herself was sick. At 20 my mum married my already alcoholic 22yr old Dad and that 50yr long alky/codie ride began. A few years later when we were born she tied her whole identity into being Wonder Mother... she was never able to cut those apron strings once we grew up. I gnawed threw the ones she was strangling me with and escaped... but my 44yr old brother is still fully entangled. The relationship between my mother and brother is insanely sick. I've written about it on other people's "sibling woe" threads so I wont spill it all over again.. but it is an enmeshment dysfunction to the highest degree. It WILL kill both of them, I have zero doubt about that. No, I'm not psychic, but my mother is going to love my brother to death and that will in turn kill her.

My mother still thinks of my brother and I as her babies. She SAYS this out loud! I have argued with her about this since I was a teenager. I will concede that I will always be her "child" but that I am NOT a baby nor an actual child, I am an adult who has children old enough to have their own darn children! Recently I've quit engaging in this endless conversation. I will hang up or walk away. I will not be infantalized to meet some sick need in her. If she wants to hang on to that delusion to make herself feel vindicated in her behavior then she can fill her boots, but I wont play the part. My brother on the other hand is very resentfully allowing her to very resentfully baby him.

For the life of her my mother can not see that "helping" my brother has caused him immeasurable harm. Never allowing him to fully face a consequence or act like a man in his own right has done irreversible damage as far as I can see. I hate being witness to it.

It is such a mess. So many unhealthy dynamics at play. It's no wonder I don't want to go visit... my brother still sleeps with his head laid down not 30 feet from hers...

uuugggggggg
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Old 09-05-2018, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Bernadette View Post
Even now if my Mom could just LISTEN, genuinely listen, and show interest in what I am saying. If she genuinely apologized for any of the hurts she caused me and my siblings, for her sometimes insane behavior when we were kids, and then gave me space to forgive her, not expect an instant flurry of words of reassurance and praise.
SIGH

yeah this resonates....

My mum does not LISTEN

Oh she talks a LOT... she will briefly pause,pretend to listen to me, and then keep on going on about whatever her version of events is that she wants to believe. It's infuriating.

She also repeats her old stories a lot, and no it's not a getting older thing, its a "her" thing, I can remember it my whole life. I will try to tell her some adventure or happenstance in my life and I will get steamrolled by one of these stories, that I've known by heart since before my adolescence... if I try to redirect her by saying, "yes I know about this", and quickly try to summerize her story to prove it, so that I can get on with what *I* have to say, she just gets louder and keeps on going, talking right over top of me ... so rude and so frustrating. (Not to mention I really do not care about all these stories that are almost always from before I was born and always told like I've never heard them before.... makes me want to scream!)

The child in me, the one she keeps wanting to mother, wants to stomp my feet and yell at her to listen to me!
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Old 09-05-2018, 09:05 AM
  # 16 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SmallButMighty View Post
I gnawed threw the ones she was strangling me with and escaped... but my 44yr old brother is still fully entangled.
(nodding along) Yes - except it's my 42-yr old sister & she's just independent enough to think she's "dealt with her stuff just fine, thank you very much".

In her case, mom has helped her out so much over all the years that she can't stop from reacting through guilt.

I'm the oldest & always have been treated like an adult while my sister is still somewhat coddled as the "baby", although it's less obvious now.

My niece is the oldest granddaughter but because she's my sister's daughter (following? ) she gets treated like my sister.

My younger daughter, who was the actual baby for years, gets treated like *me* - mini adult, no coddling, no efforts to bond. Our DD's are our mini-me's & mom treats them as such. As a result, my niece is less mature & capable than my daughter, who is younger by 5 yrs.

She still only invites my daughter over when/because she already has plans with my niece &/or nephew.... does DD want to "join them"? Insulting. If it's just my nephew, it's because she needs DD's help - he's very high maintenance, and has zero respect for her. But he adores DD & will listen to every word she says.

Originally Posted by hopeful4
I am the codependent mother. Or I was.
Me too girl, me too. Don't get down on yourself - we ALL do better when we know better. The fact that you are aware of it is Huge.


Originally Posted by SmallButMighty
I honestly believe my mother's codependency affected me a lot more negatively then my father's alcoholism.
I'm glad B highlighted this statement again - I have expressed this opinion many times & I know it isn't likely to be well-received here for the most part...... but it's the biggest truth in this thread.

Her Codependency is far, far harder to deal with & IMO I think it's because with addicts, we develop our reactive behaviors over time but with a Codie Mom, I was In Training for these behaviors literally from the day I was born. And when I break a habit, she takes it as a personal statement directed at her own parenting. DD & I tried to share about an amazing seminar we attended over the summer & you could watch mom just shut down the more we spoke. I think I have it alllll figured out, don't I? I'm just *so smart*. Sigh.

I've often said the perfect scenario for her would be if she had had 10 kids, because there would be so many of us, she could stay busy running from one to another & could spiral in her dysfunction all around. Needing to be needed is huge with her too - but only in the negative sense..... when you need her help, her money, her time, have a crisis - she kicks into her highest functioning mode. She embraces drama even while she complains about it - overinvolving herself in all kinds of stuff (condo board) but refusing to actually DO anything to create change (like run for the board) other than complaining loudly - she expertly abdicates responsibility for every possible thing & then bitches loudly when it goes awry.

When I cut my dad's FOO off after his death because they were being emotionally abusive to her ~again~ she acted like a wounded child needing protection & then turned around years later & told other family members that I kept her from being able to have a relationship with them. WHAT?? Why weren't you the adult taking care of it to being with?? Why did your 19 yr old have to step in & HOW does she have *that much* control over things???

Messes with my mind, it does! Even now!

The greatest tragedy is that I fully see how she did the best she could at the time with what she was working & dealing with - but that can't be the behavior we carry forward - ESPECIALLY me because I live, work, eat & breathe my recovery. No secret keeping with me - not even about Codie Ways.

What makes it so hard, again, is her lack of acceptance & awareness about herself. It's not my job to decide she needs to change, but I also refuse to volunteer to expose myself to trigger after trigger & create stress & anxiety for myself. She can stay this way forever if she really wants to! She just can't get angry at me for not wanting to be witness to it. The few times we've talked about her using resources she just dissolves into exasperated sputtering - nothing is available or affordable & WTF do I expect her to do???? Her fury grew exponentially as I shared resource after resource after resource - she did not want to hear that, she wanted ongoing sympathy & allowances for her poor behavior.

And truthfully, everyone deserves to be free from whatever demons devour them from the inside out - I so wish that for her because she might actually start LIVING if she were to realize it. She's in control of that - she can do it any time she chooses.
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Old 09-05-2018, 09:58 AM
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I nodded through your hole post FireSprite.

My mum has been miserable her whole life because she has spent her entire 72 years trying to make everybody else around her happy.

-She is not happy...
-Her parents were not happy...
-My Dad was not happy...
-My brother is not happy...

-I was not happy in my former marriage, which if she had her way, I would still be suffering in because you know, I made a promise when I was 20 and I should have stuck with it forever and ever despite the dysfunction...

-My kids love their Grandma but she drives them nuts with her interference and opinions on how they should be living their lives. Like she is some ultimate authority on today's youth.

She has wasted her entire life trying to make people happy, with zero real results, but she keeps at it. It's REALLY sad. No amount of trying to talk to her about this has ever gotten anywhere. I don't upset her by trying anymore. She wasn't receptive and didn't believe me, so it wasn't worth beating that horse.

She keeps making these destructive choices and being angry with everyone else that life sucks, if we'd all just do what she said we'd all be living on a pink cloud dontchaknow!? *SIGH*

I really try not to live in the F.O.G. anymore but I guess the truth of it is that I still get a bit mired in it sometimes. She's getting older, her health isn't good, and she lives 3K miles away. I know she misses me, the guilt kicks in because I really don't miss her, or rather having to tolerate her behavior. I'm really much more comfortable with several emails a week from afar vs. entire days of non stop Codie Mum when we are face to face.

I don't think she is going to change. She is pathologically stuck in her ways. It's going to have to be me that finds a way to deal with this in a way that doesn't intentionally add to her misery... OR MINE.

Families are "fun"
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Old 09-05-2018, 11:28 AM
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She also repeats her old stories a lot, and no it's not a getting older thing, its a "her" thing, I can remember it my whole life. I will try to tell her some adventure or happenstance in my life and I will get steamrolled by one of these stories, that I've known by heart since before my adolescence... if I try to redirect her by saying, "yes I know about this", and quickly try to summerize her story to prove it, so that I can get on with what *I* have to say, she just gets louder and keeps on going, talking right over top of me ... so rude and so frustrating.

OMG we must be sisters! Reading this whole thread is like that AlAnon meeting saying "I can reminisce with total strangers!"

The child in me, the one she keeps wanting to mother, wants to stomp my feet and yell at her to listen to me

Oooooph yes. I have the same feelings and it is challenging to own them....and I hate them....and if I just went off on her and said all the things I really want to say I would absolutely just crush her like a jelly...and I'd be the monster then, and no better off.

Last Spring after a week long visit with her I parked my car in a deserted parking lot and I just went off and screamed and yelled and shrieked and sobbed and said all the really really intense things I've ever wanted to say to her about everything.

It did feel really good, and I did have less frustration with her the next time we spoke -- but a few days after my private rant I got a raging UTI, needed antibiotics, hadn't had one in decades, and when I looked it up in my Louise Hay "Heal Your Body" book for the underlying psychological cause it said, "Pissed off. Blaming others. Burning with anger." GULP!! Food for thought as always, thanks Louise! So who knows if ranting was "good" for me or not LOL.

Peace,
B
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Old 09-05-2018, 11:56 AM
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From Firesprite: And when I break a habit, she takes it as a personal statement directed at her own parenting. DD & I tried to share about an amazing seminar we attended over the summer & you could watch mom just shut down the more we spoke. I think I have it alllll figured out, don't I? I'm just *so smart*. Sigh.

Oh man....I recognize this kind of crap in my Mom too...and I can be several sentences into something before I realize she thinks I'm talking abut her...more of her not really listening habit...

Is it because a codependent tendency is to always be trying to influence others' behavior that she assumes everything I say has a hidden message, a push, an agenda?

Not taking things personally in relation to my kids is a good reminder for me, a powerful codie impulse to keep breaking.

Peace,
B
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Old 09-05-2018, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernadette View Post
From Aliciagr: [

Therapy helped me release the well-rehearsed control focus, to just be more open, more loose and forgiving, and to listen more, and to be responsible to myself in my behavior.

Some books that really helped me become a better parent (boys were young when we split, 7 and 3) were "Between Parent and Child" by Haim Ginott, and "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk" by Faber and Mazlish.

I know I have made great (and bungling and imperfect) strides in breaking the codie chain with my boys. They are all grown up now. When I have my sh*t together I try to say "I love you, I'm listening." and then just listen, don't offer a different version, or advice. Just answer questions honestly. I try to show interest and ask questions. I let things be, don't rush to have every trouble or argument wrapped up neat in a bow that satisfies me! When I don't have my sh*t together and I'm wrong I apologize without being dramatic or turning the apology into a pat need for reassuring words so that I feel some immediate gratification.

I guess listening was a big big theme for me. I think as a small child in an alcoholic home I just didn't feel heard at all. My direct questions about what the heck was going on were ignored, met with anger, or answered with walls and layers of lies and cover ups. So I learned to hold it all in since no one seemed to hear me. But boy I was listening! And learning! Yikes.

Even now if my Mom could just LISTEN, genuinely listen, and show interest in what I am saying. If she genuinely apologized for any of the hurts she caused me and my siblings, for her sometimes insane behavior when we were kids, and then gave me space to forgive her, not expect an instant flurry of words of reassurance and praise. As my father recovered he made his amends to me, we had some amazing conversations, he never contradicted my experiences, he listened to painful memories and he genuinely apologized. That was very healing, and we were close until he died.

It's tough stuff anyway parenting, and every parent with any self-awareness from an A home or not has done things or said things they regret. I can still keep myself awake at night if I perseverate on regretful moments in my boys' childhood. My mom always brags how she sleeps so well, so maybe her continuing denial protects her! I'm OK with my occasional sleepless nights and authentic relationship with my kids. I just try to keep an open mind and keep it real. Forgiving myself is still the hardest and most elusive thing....
Peace,
B.
Thank you for the books. I love to read.

Several posts on here have talked about the inability of the codependent to actually LISTEN. Agree very much. One of the biggest differences I see between my mom and my MIL is that my mom listens and she understands that I have the ability to form my own opinions, process things in my own way and time. We can discuss differences in opinion and talk about why we feel a certain way. Its a calm and respectful interaction and has led me to value my moms input, and feel comfortable sharing with her because I feel respected, loved and like she listens and does want to help me, but it comes from a place of wisdom, of knowing the values that were instilled in me, and these types of things. She is ok if I make a decision she doesn't agree with.

She listens to ME. And views me as having my own identity. Its changed over time as Ive become an adult, married and the like. But even when I was a kid I felt this from both my parents. The other thing is my parents would tell me when they felt I had done something wrong. But they separated the action from who I was as a person and so I still felt loved and respected - although I often did feel I had disappointed them (as in I didn't hold to the values I believe in)

But its the exact opposite with my MIL. She see's her kids as an extension of her and of course that control factor. She doesn't need to listen because she knows what the problem is, what they are thinking, how they are processing the information, that the action taken will be wrong unless she inserts herself into the issue. She also did the opposite of my parents and according to my husband didn't separate a behavior from the person. He was bad, he was stupid. And once a person lives with this type of thing long enough it does affect them in my opinion.

My FIL while he was detached from so much of this. The one good thing he did was push both his kids to get an education and believed they could do anything. But that created two different extremes with low self esteem on the one hand, and pressure to be successful and not make mistakes or fail or he was bad!
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