kevlarsjal2

I've been thinking about the codependency aspect again. And despite him calling me controlling, I don't think I ever was. I didn't mind what he does or doesn't do, where he goes, who he's friends with, what he likes, if he works on his problems or not. The only thing I did mind is how he treated me and when I felt like he treated me in uncaring or rude ways, I would say so. I didn't want to change him in any other way. I didn't want to change his depression or make him seek help instead of using pills to treat his anxiety. That was never any of my business. But I would tell him what I think is wrong with his behaviour towards me (like lying, leaving without saying good bye, making decisions about the relationship on his own, being unfriendly, not being true to his words, kicking me out when we have an argument instead of talking things through, running away on the street in the middle of a conversation,..). It was only those things I expected him to change and I told him so. He either promised me to change them which kept me hopeful or he confused me so much about the cause (he is very good at twisting things and distorting them so much) that I was no longer sure my point was valid. But after having read Bancroft's book I do think that some of those men are so good at twisting, distorting and excusing things, that most people start questioning their own perspective.

If anything, he (my ex) wanted me to be codependent and take responsibilities that are his, put his needs first etc and it was me not wanting that that made him so angry with me.

trailmix

It's more like, if you are loving and honest that MANY people will treat you like that in return. There are dishonest and odd people out in the world, you need to defend yourself and your feelings. That doesn't mean that you go out guns blazing constantly on the defensive, it does mean when someone crosses one of your boundaries you don't back up.

I'm not all that familiar with Al-Anon, but this sounds wrong? I've never heard anyone talk about it in this way. Perhaps someone with more experience with it will chime in here. I can't see anyone ever advising that being more loving etc would ever work with an alcoholic or an abusive person.

Al-Anon is about you, about focusing on yourself and your life, not that of the alcoholic, not fixing them. If this is what they are talking about at an Al-Anon meeting, I'd find a new meeting.

atalose

And that’s just it, when you find yourself constantly trying to prove your worth to someone, you have already forgotten your value. This can be were codependency rears its ugly head, rather than ending a relationship because someone says we are X,Y or Z and we know we are not, we make a choice to stay and fight to prove our worth to that person attempting to get validation from them, approval from them and hopefully love from them. That is not how healthy relationships work, it’s how toxic ones do.

kevlarsjal2

I talked to an AA friend after a meeting tonight. He has been in abusive / dysfunctional relationship too and his ex girlfriend was apparently very jealous and controlling.

He said that it felt like she was always there, always next to him, even when he was alone.

This stuck out to me. I think I felt the same in my relationship. Whatever I did, I was constantly thinking whether he would get angry about it and if whatever I was doing was okay for him.
I noticed it just when I was talking to that guy that part of my brain, somewhere in the back, where the half-conscious stuff happens, was already thinking about how to best tell him (my ex) that I was talking to another guy and worried about his reaction to that.
I felt the same kind of tension when I send a PM to a male person on here or when I was talking to a guy that works at the supermarket and in hindsight I see how I became very uneasy in all my interaction with men because my ex was so controlling. I'm equally uneasy about other stuff like doing nice things, I then find myself trying to justify why I'm not studying or working all day long, being productive. This constant control and expectations plus punishment when I didn't meet them or didn't let him control me really left a lot of damage.

I'm still seeing more and more ways in which this caused me so much stress and anxiety.

kevlarsjal2

I can't really identify with this. It was never about my worth. I didn't want to prove my worth to him. I just wanted to prove my love to him, that I really mean well and am not trying to "run him over" or whatever he accused me of. I didn't seek validation or approval. How did you get this idea?
I thought he and I had a communication problem. I know I am not manipulative or controlling or any of the things he accused me of. So I thought if I just find better ways to express myself he will see that I genuinely mean well. I stayed because I loved him and because I thought he loved me. And because I thought that if I only find a way to word things better to approach him better, he will no longer feel hurt by me when I say that he hurt me or would no longer fear that I will leave him when I talk to other men etc. Where do you think I am looking for approval or validation? I think maybe you've misunderstood me. Or maybe I am being blind.

Summarising: The reason I stayed wasn't because I needed to show him that I am not as bad as he thinks. I don't care much about people thinking bad about me, I rarely ever think about how others see me and it's nothing that is important to me. There are people I don't like and I think some people don't like me and this is just how things are naturally. I never felt the need to convince someone that I am likeable. That seems completely pointless to me. Is that what codependent people do?

The reason I stayed was because I loved him. The reason why I wanted to prove to him that I am not manipulative etc was because I didn't want him to feel hurt for no reason. I saw he experienced my behaviour as hurtful so obviously I wanted to explain things and show him that I didn't mean to hurt his feelings.
The thing I cared about were his feelings, not how he sees me.

It's the same with others, if they see me as stupid or annoying or lame or selfish or I don't know what, I don't mind it. But when I notice that someone feels hurt because of something I did, even when I didn't mean to hurt that person, I will try to solve the situation because I don't want them to be hurting. They may still see me as selfish or whatever they want. It's just their feelings that I care about.

trailmix

The reason I stayed wasn't because I needed to show him that I am not as bad as he thinks.

I don't care much about people thinking bad about me, I rarely ever think about how others see me and it's nothing that is important to me. I never felt the need to convince someone that I am likeable.

Your two statements are contradictions. You say you don't really care what others think of you - they will think whatever they think. Then you say you needed to show him you are not as bad as he thinks.

I'm guessing your reason was actually:

That's why it's confusing

kevlarsjal2

I think you've misread my quote, they are not contradictions.

1) The reason I stayed wasn't because I needed to show him that I am not as bad as he thinks.

2) I don't care much about people thinking bad about me, I rarely ever think about how others see me and it's nothing that is important to me.I never felt the need to convince someone that I am likeable.

In 1) I say that this was NOT the reason I stayed, maybe that wasn't worded as clearly. But what I meant was the same in both statements.
I guess you misread the "wasn't" for a "was" or maybe poor grammar /wording on my part, I'm not a native speaker. But there wasn't meant to be any contradiction.

I'm not sure what you meant with that last part what my reason was. I said my reason was that I didn't want him to feel hurt. Which is for me not the same as not wanting to be seen as "bad".

trailmix

You are correct, I did misread that, apologies.

I just reread the entire thread. Wanting to prove to him that your intent was not as he saw it (controlling or whatever rather than loving).

You are who you are, you are HOW you are, if he can't understand that, well, you tried!

kevlarsjal2

No need to apologise! And just to make it clear, I value your input very much!

Yes I definitely tried to clarify things between him and me in every way I could think of. The only thing I didn't think of was that he maybe, didn't want to understand. After having read the book by Lundy Bancroft that seems likely to be the case. Not wanting to understand something or not being interested in solving a problem seems so unnatural to me that it never even crossed my mind that this could be the case.

I just send this in a PM to someone but I think it helps me to understand why I was so eager to clarify things:

I am not good with social cues and I have hurt people a lot when I was younger (child / teenager) by saying things in the wrong way, being too direct or not noticing stuff people said between the lines, taking things too literal etc. I was often mistaken for being egocentric, rude or inconsiderate. And I didn't even notice it when someone was hurt unless they told me so. So I am used to accidentally hurting people without noticing it and the reason why they feel hurt not really making sense to me. When my ex then felt hurt or offended all the time, I thought I was just not that good at expressing myself again. I have no real instincts for these things and because I didn't want to continue running through life, stepping on people's toes all the time, I learned to take every complaint seriously and to try and see it from the other's perspective. And in a twisted way, all his explanations were logical so they seemed somewhat reasonable.

It's hard for me to "read" people and I am often not sure what kind of things they are asking for between the lines or judging from their body language. Like if someone would like a hug for example or rather wants to be left alone. This makes me very open for any kind of feedback on the way I interact and communicate cause I would like to do those things more successfully. Generally I got better with these things but knowing that I have some kind of "blindness" when it comes to that, must've made it very easy for my ex to tell me that it was all my fault.

trailmix

He may not have wanted to understand or maybe he just can't. An addict doesn't think the way a regular person does. So when you try (or tried) to approach discussion logically, it's possible he just didn't get it.

Maybe there is no good way to say something to him.

In that case, it becomes (to him) your fault. He wants you to act like X you are acting like Y. Chances are he didn't want to be fixed or fix anything, preferably you would have just gone along with his erratic behaviour and drinking and not complained.

I totally understand what you are saying about stepping on peoples toes by mistake, having non-harmful intent but someone else taking it in a way you didn't intend. I do that sometimes as well. As long as your intent is good, well what can you do. I think everyone does that sometimes.

AnvilheadII

must've made it very easy for my ex to tell me that it was all my fault.

that right there is a big red flag.....it is one thing for someone to say - when you said XXXX, i felt YYYY - and quite another for one to take everything we say and do (or don't say and don't do), that you are bad, faulty, flawed, etc. and that instead of owning any of their OWN behaviors, they deflect and transfer them to YOU.

Surfbee

Kevlarsjal, I hope you will give your inner child (younger you/teenager) a big hug for "being too direct or not noticing stuff people said between the lines, taking things too literal etc." because our heart was clearly always in the right place, your intentions were good.

Yes it sounds like your ex took advantage of that vulnerability in you.

AAH this makes so much sense.

And this!

kevlarsjal2

He was no longer drinking. And I think it was that that made me think he had figured his stuff out. I had not understood the difference between "not drinking" and "being in recovery".
But what you say about there not being a good way to approach him, that he probably expected me to just let him do whatever he does without it having any consequences, that is what impression I had towards the end. He didn't want me to hold up a mirror that shows him his behaviours, he did not want to be confronted with any consequences and did not want to take responsibility for his actions. Which is what active addicts tend to do. Or toddlers. Both aren't able to have a stable and equal relationship.

kevlarsjal2

Yes, it's a shame I didn't see those red flags or ignored them. I think it never seemed quite logical to me that everything should be my fault, especially given the fact that he had all these problems... But he said that his problems don't affect our relationship and if I let them affect me, then that is my issue to work on, that I need to emotionally distance myself from how his actions make me feel because he didn't intend to hurt me. In a way that made sense to me. It didn't make sense to me that he wasn't willing to do the same with me.

Overall this just showed me that I am very naive with people, always believing in the best, assuming that they have good intentions and just are misunderstood somehow (cause that is often the case for me). I also believed that he was "good" to me because he said he only wants to be good to me. When his actions didn't match his behaviour, I then again assumed I was just misunderstanding something again.

Hmm... I guess for the future I could try and pay more attention to what people do rather to what they say. Maybe that would be a good start. I would still worry that I accidentally misjudge someone then.. Maybe I can find a good way to handle this though.

dandylion

Kev.....I am wondering if anyone in a therapist role has ever mentioned the possibility of Asperger....?
Whether, or not....it still remains that he seems to have been a very toxic person for you.....

Surfbee

Your guy sounds a lot like my guy. Very self-centred and callous.... I guess they'll do anything to deflect from their own issues!

I'm overwhelmed with the amount of similarities I'm reading in all these posts and threads... ! Self care is where it's at now! Questioning, exploring, feeling and accepting everything that comes up.

kevlarsjal2

Actually my first therapist mentioned it once I think in relation to me being overly sensitive to light, smell and sound. She said she wasn't sure if it was something neurological (like that would be the case with Aspergers) or psychological like hyper vigilance. I didn't get any appointments for the tests she suggested and then the whole topic was forgotten again.
But one of my ex partners (the only one I ever lived with) was convinced I had some form of autism. I've read a few books about it and I do often think so myself. I definitely meet lots of the criteria. Getting a diagnosis as an adult is more or less impossible in my country. There is only one clinic in my area that does this and their waiting list is so long that it has been closed for years now.

One of the first things my ex (the one I am talking about in this thread) mentioned when we met, was that he suspected himself to be "slightly autistic" and I thought "great! Maybe he will get me!" but later he changed his opinion on that.

Anyway, finding out what the cause of his problems is and how he can treat them if he ever decides to do so, is nothing I can help him with anymore and seemingly nothing he ever wanted help with. I feel like he wanted to have excuses for things rather than solutions.

And like you say, he wasn't good for me. By ending things the way he did, he made that very clear again.

I think slowly I am no longer sad about the relationship being over. A lot of the anxiety I first felt about the end of the relationship was connected to the sudden change in my life that I didn't like. But now I am getting used to the new situation and am slowly able to enjoy all the time I have to myself and all the fun things I can do that he wouldn't have liked much. Like me going to the gym.
What still makes me very sad is how he treated me after the break up and that he didn't seem to care about being respectful of my feelings too.

kevlarsjal2

Yes I noticed that too! Sometimes it sounds almost like we all were in a relationship with the same guy!

When I read that book about abusive men, I sometimes found it hard to believe that the author had never spoken to my ex. There were so many quotes from men and women describing their relationships and more than often they were a perfect description of my relationship or the quotes were exactly the things my ex said so many times. It was mind blowing!

What's even crazier is that while I was in the relationship, I thought my ex was so complex and unique, there seemed to be so many contradictions in his behaviour, so many loose ends, nothing made sense. I thought there could not possibly be someone similar, just because it all seemed to strange and confusing. But surprise, there isn't much uniqueness in his behaviour at all, it's the opposite.

andyh

that rather jumped out at me too - & I have mild Asperger's myself.

atalose

Just wanted to prove my love, prove I was well meaning…………..are those not part of your own self-worth?