Having a conversation with his sponsor

Old 08-15-2018, 03:35 PM
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Having a conversation with his sponsor

Background:
Since I initially discovered my XAH was an alcoholic (post divorce), he's gone back and forth between recovery and relapse every 3-6 months. We've mediated each time, and he's been on and off SoberLink several times. In the wake of each relapse, he has managed to convince everybody that he's serious about recovery, he says he will do whatever it takes, starts monitoring, he'll go to therapy but not meetings, ok fine he'll try meetings, etc.

Then a few months in, he will say he needs to "move forward with his life" and shortly after discontinuing SoberLink, he will relapse.

This past winter, he drove drunk with the kids, and I escalated to formal legal action including a GAL.

I was granted sole custody for most of the school year, he started to see them two days a week this summer, and with the start of the next school year, he'll have them 50% of the time again. He's back on SoberLink, monitoring 5 times a day and successfully. He's been sober about five months.

He says he is attending AA regularly for the first time and working with a sponsor.

Part of our GAL agreement was that I would get to meet and speak with his sponsor.

And now - I'm trying to figure out what exactly I would try to accomplish with a conversation, besides just confirming that he has a sponsor.

If his past pattern holds, he will relapse again in March when his court-ordered monitoring is complete. I am trying to emotionally prepare myself to get back onto that merry-go-round - and I like the idea of there being someone to reach out to when I start to see signs of relapse besides the GAL / my attorney.

I see now so much that I've seen before: he's confident he has control over his alcoholism, he's keeping secrets from his family so they don't find out about his drunk driving or the change in custody, etc.

And now he's about to have the kids 50% of the time, which means half the time he will miss the 7 am meeting he's described as "critical" to his recovery - but not so critical that he'll make arrangements to keep going.

I don't expect a sponsor to assure me that he'll be fine. But I think I would feel better if I got the sense that XAH had been honest with him vs the fleecing he's done with past therapists.

Just trying to wrap my head around a conversation with his sponsor, what I would want to say, if there is any value in a conversation there at all - for me or for him.

Thoughts?
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:42 PM
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I would not make an attempt to talk to the sponsor.

1. AA is anonymous. You're asking someone to out themselves. You're asking your EX to out his sponsor, too.
2. None of your business what your EX talks about with a sponsor.
3. He (your EX) is gonna do what he's gonna do, drinking-wise. It seems really intrusive to expect a non-paid non-professional peer support member to get in the middle of this.

Try looking at it from the sponsor's point of view. Your need to ferret out honesty is not his problem. It's not his circus and not his monkey.

If I was the sponsor, I would not agree to a meeting with a spouse for the purpose of letting an ex wife in on the private sessions. I don't think you can force something like this. Part of the success of the Steps is dependent on discretion on the part of meeting members and sponsors.

I think if I were going to AA for help but I knew someone was going to ask questions that could trip me up in court later, I would not be honest with a sponsor - and that will hurt recovery in the long-term.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:46 PM
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eh....i'm surprised that language was included in the agreement.....without the consent of the sponsor.

it is not a sponsor's job to vouch for their sponsee, or to verify their "sobriety". AA is based on anonymity, and sponsor's role in one's recovery is/should be protected as well. for your ex to even name his sponsor is a violation of the principle of anonymity. sponsors should not be involved in the sponsee's divorce/parenting plan...that is way out of bounds.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:55 PM
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My ex and his sponsor have both agreed to it, and my understanding is that it is not uncommon for an alcoholic's family member to have contact with a sponsor.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:58 PM
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[/I]If I was the sponsor, I would not agree to a meeting with a spouse for the purpose of letting an ex wife in on the private sessions. I don't think you can force something like this. Part of the success of the Steps is dependent on discretion on the part of meeting members and sponsors. [/I]

Really not my intent to "get let in on private sessions" here.

My main motivation is understanding whether my ex actually HAS a sponsor - and if so, to have someone to reach out to if I think he's drinking again.

Look, I know the "rules" of AA.

But I have to say, as a parent of young children whom I seriously CANNOT protect, it's pretty hard to be in a position where the ONLY thing you can do if you're worried they are in danger is file an order with the court, which takes months and thousands of dollars and is only temporary because a charming alcoholic can convince a judge that he's really serious about his recovery this time.

Easy enough to say his recovery is his business, I suppose, when you have zero control over his decision to put two elementary-aged kids into his car and driving them stone drunk.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by CoParentToA View Post
Really not my intent to "get let in on private sessions" here.

My main motivation is understanding whether my ex actually HAS a sponsor - and if so, to have someone to reach out to if I think he's drinking again.
I used to see lots of alcoholics in meetings get their "attendance slips" for the court signed by whoever and then leave. They weren't actually going to meetings. Heck, I've heard of drinkers getting their attendance slips signed by their drinking buddies at the bar. No accountability, really, it's peer support - nothing more.

"Reaching out" to a "sponsor" if your EX husband drinks. How will that work? Do you think a sponsor has any more power over a drunk than the courts or a wife? I mean really?

There is no burden of proof in AA. There are no lie detectors. No one is paid. No one puts one hand on a Bible and the the other one in a salute while saying, "The truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth." No one owes anyone anything. It's like Sunday school. Costs a dollar and you get what you pay for.

Recovery looks like recovery.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CoParentToA View Post
[/I]
But I have to say, as a parent of young children whom I seriously CANNOT protect, it's pretty hard to be in a position where the ONLY thing you can do if you're worried they are in danger is file an order with the court , which takes months and thousands of dollars and is only temporary because a charming alcoholic can convince a judge that he's really serious about his recovery this time.
I'm unsure of how talking to his sponsor will change anything as far as needing to file with the court if he starts drinking again. The sponsor can't grant you any legal 'orders'..you'd still have to file with the courts.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by biminiblue View Post
Do you think a sponsor has any more power over a drunk than the courts or a wife? I mean really?
I guess I'd like to believe that a sponsor has more power over a drunk than an EX wife does.

And would be a more trusted source of advice than a money-hungry attorney.

True that a sponsor has less power than the courts - but they aren't inclined to take any action unless children are in "clear and present danger." Which mine were - but that only mattered for a few months.

If recovery looks like recovery, he will in fact relapse this spring, and I should just resign myself to the fact that my kids will once again be put into a dangerous situation?

Sorry but at a loss.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CoParentToA View Post

Look, I know the "rules" of AA.

But I have to say, as a parent of young children whom I seriously CANNOT protect, it's pretty hard to be in a position where the ONLY thing you can do if you're worried they are in danger is file an order with the court, which takes months and thousands of dollars and is only temporary because a charming alcoholic can convince a judge that he's really serious about his recovery this time.

Easy enough to say his recovery is his business, I suppose, when you have zero control over his decision to put two elementary-aged kids into his car and driving them stone drunk.
You edited...

I understand you are worried about your kids, and rightfully so.

I just think realistically a sponsor has very little power and should not be asked to be in the middle of a contentious custody issue. You asked if you should talk to the sponsor, I'm just telling you what I saw in AA.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DontRemember View Post
I'm unsure of how talking to his sponsor will change anything as far as needing to file with the court if he starts drinking again. The sponsor can't grant you any legal 'orders'..you'd still have to file with the courts.
I'd like to think that if I started to see signs that XAH was drinking, the sponsor would be in a position to reach out to him / offer support in a way that I myself would not be.

Am I not thinking about this correctly?

Right now, the only thing I can do is file something that asserts he is drinking. He responds to say that he is NOT drinking. We work with a GAL to mediate a few more months of SoberLink. Rinse, repeat.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:17 PM
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and how would you know the person he produces as his AA sponsor is really his AA sponsor? it's not like they dispense badges or anything.

no one is trying to downplay the concern you have regarding your ex and the safety of your children. it's just that trying to involve someone else from AA is not going to do a damn thing to truly protect the kids.

you have SoberLink which is designed to assure a sober period.
your own children should be empowered to contact you immediately if things are not right or safe when they are in his care. it's advisable to include the school counselors so the children have another source of safety.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by biminiblue View Post
I just think realistically a sponsor has very little power.
Well maybe that's really the crux of it.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII View Post
your own children should be empowered to contact you immediately if things are not right or safe when they are in his care. it's advisable to include the school counselors so the children have another source of safety.
I've had this conversation with them. But realistically, my children are too young to know if things aren't right. They talk about Daddy being sleepy or napping. It took me years to recognize when he had been drinking, and I too stepped unknowingly into a car with him the night he got a DUI. I was stunned.

The school counselors are aware of the situation. The kids get picked up at the office so he has to check in with an adult before getting them.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CoParentToA View Post
I'd like to think that if I started to see signs that XAH was drinking, the sponsor would be in a position to reach out to him / offer support in a way that I myself would not be.
I have no personal experience with AA but in my opinion the advice you have been given here is really solid.

I'll throw in my opinion of what I see here.

Your plan may actually backfire in that if your goal is for your ex to remain sober having his sponsor in your "camp" voids any security/ trust between the two, ie: if he is thinking about drinking or actually drinking why would he tell his sponsor if he will discuss it with you? I'm thinking his sponsor would then be the second to last person he would approach (besides you).

It's an illusion of control that you don't actually have. Right or wrong that is how it is. In no way do I mean to trivialize your concern for your children, you are right to be concerned, I get it, however in this instance your control is only on your side of the street unless and until he shows his hand as drinking again.


-
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CoParentToA View Post
I'd like to think that if I started to see signs that XAH was drinking, the sponsor would be in a position to reach out to him / offer support in a way that I myself would not be.

Am I not thinking about this correctly?

Right now, the only thing I can do is file something that asserts he is drinking. He responds to say that he is NOT drinking. We work with a GAL to mediate a few more months of SoberLink. Rinse, repeat.
**I've never had a sponsor nor do I sponsor anyone** That said..If I was a sponsor and someone was drinking again..I'd call them one time..If I didn't hear back I'd 'fire' that sponsee. At the same time; I would not be comfortable being involved with a sponsee's family drama. For an extra aside: There's some strange people in(and outside of) the rooms of AA. I'd never trust them with the 'wellbeing' of my daughter. If anything,it'd be the exact opposite had my exAwf tried to go that route.

Edit: If I were you, i'd petition for 1 more year of sober link. Just know..you can not expect him to stay on it forever. At some point you will have to let go of that 'control' and hope for the best from him.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by trailmix View Post
Your plan may actually backfire in that if your goal is for your ex to remain sober having his sponsor in your "camp" voids any security/ trust between the two, ie: if he is thinking about drinking or actually drinking why would he tell his sponsor if he will discuss it with you? I'm thinking his sponsor would then be the second to last person he would approach (besides you).
-
When XAH had a therapist, we had a deal - I could reach out to her with any concern. She might ask me questions, but she would NOT reveal anything he had told her. It was a one-way flow of information. I knew that if I voiced a concern, she would raise it with him, and probably more productively than if I raised it myself. (It worked for a while, and then it all went to pot when she took a turn and started to vouch for the strength of his recovery and defend his decision to discontinue SoberLink. He relapsed immediately thereafter.)

I guess I had sort of been thinking about it in that way. Like just letting him know where my head is.

I have ZERO expectation that a sponsor would call me, for example, if he was aware XAH was drinking. But maybe he would encourage XAH to reach out to me himself to take the kids for a few extra days if he was aware XAH was struggling?
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CoParentToA View Post
I guess I'd like to believe that a sponsor has more power over a drunk than an EX wife does.

And would be a more trusted source of advice than a money-hungry attorney.
Sponsors have no power over addiction or alcoholism.

An attorney who is well-versed in addictions, including alcoholism, could be someone good to have in our corner, as parents looking at protecting our children. Advocates and attorneys can often be found through domestic abuse help centers.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DontRemember View Post
Edit: If I were you, i'd petition for 1 more year of sober link. Just know..you can not expect him to stay on it forever. At some point you will have to let go of that 'control' and hope for the best from him.
The GAL told me at one point that he thought XAH probably would need to be on "some sort of monitoring for the rest of the kids' childhood."

To date, it's the only thing that has keep him sober.

So unless he is pursuing recovery or decides to at some point, I think it's going to be a case of getting on and off the legal merry-go-round for at least the next 4-5 years, at which point I hope the kids will be old enough to accurately assess whether or not they are in danger.

Fun times.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:57 PM
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I have ZERO expectation that a sponsor would call me, for example, if he was aware XAH was drinking. But maybe he would encourage XAH to reach out to me himself to take the kids for a few extra days if he was aware XAH was struggling?

again, that is WAYYYYY outside of the role of sponsor. a sponsor has a single purpose, to help guide a person thru the steps of AA. they are not the booze police. they are not therapists. they are not mediators. they are not life coaches.

this is from an AA pamphlet on sponsorship:

What does a sponsor do and not do?
• A sponsor does everything possible, within the
limits of personal experience and knowledge,
to help the newcomer get sober and stay sober
through the A.A. program.
• Shows by present example and drinking history
what A.A. has meant in the sponsor’s life.
• Encourages and helps the newcomer to attend
a variety of A.A. meetings — to get a number
of viewpoints and interpretations of the A.A.
program.
• Suggests keeping an open mind about A.A. if
the newcomer isn’t sure at first whether he or she
is an alcoholic.
• Introduces the newcomer to other members.
• Sees that the newcomer is aware of A.A. literature,
in particular the Big Book, Twelve Steps
and Twelve Traditions, Grapevine, As Bill Sees It,
Living Sober and suitable pamphlets.
• Is available to the newcomer when the latter has
special problems.
• Goes over the meaning of the Twelve Steps, and
emphasizes their importance.
• Urges the newcomer to join in group activities
as soon as possible.
• Impresses upon the newcomer the importance
of all our Traditions.
• Tries to give the newcomer some picture of
the scope of A.A., beyond the group, and directs
attention to A.A. literature about the history of
the Fellowship, the Three Legacies, the service
structure, and the worldwide availability of A.A. —
wherever the newcomer may go.
Explains the program to relatives of the alcoholic,
if this appears to be useful, and tells them about
Al-Anon Family Groups and Alateen.

• Quickly admits, “I don’t know” when that is the
case, and helps the newcomer find a good source
of information.
• The sponsor encourages the newcomer to work
with other alcoholics as soon as possible, and
sometimes begins by taking the newcomer along
on Twelfth Step calls.
• Never takes the newcomer’s inventory except
when asked.
• Never tries to impose personal views on
the newcomer. A good sponsor who is an
atheist does not try to persuade a religious newcomer
to abandon faith, nor does a religious sponsor
argue theological matters with an agnostic
newcomer.
• Does not pretend to know all the answers, and
does not keep up a pretense of being right all
the time.
An A.A. sponsor does not offer professional services
such as those provided by counselors, the
legal, medical or social work comunities, but may
sometimes help the newcomer to access professional
help if assistance outside the scope of A.A.
is needed.

The sponsor underscores the fact that it is the
A.A. recovery program — not the sponsor’s personality
or position — that is important. Thus, the
newcomer learns to rely on the A.A. program, not
on the sponsor. A sponsor well-grounded in the
A.A. program will not be offended if the newcomer goes to other A.A. members for additional guidance
or even decides to change sponsors.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CoParentToA View Post
I guess I'd like to believe that a sponsor has more power over a drunk than an EX wife does.
I'd like to share my experience as a sponsor.

My life is based on step 1, that I am powerless over alcohol (and people), and that my life has become unmanageable.

I can carry the message. I can't carry the alcoholic.

I lead by example. That doesn't mean others will follow.

I carry no illusions that I have power over anyone else, including my sponsees.

I understand your concerns for your children. You have every right to be concerned.

If the sponsor has agreed, then talk to him. If he's worth his weight in gold, anything said between him and your EX stays between the two of them.

Sending you hugs of support.
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