AnvilheadII

I think I need a new conception of God
my 2nd ex, who was very involved in NA (maybe still is....he's an ex tho, so i don't keep track!) said that when he got to step 3 his sponsor had him write a Want Ad for a Higher Power....just like you would for a good prospective employee......i have always thought that was an amazing suggestion.

Mango212

First, I'm finding in retrospect that being in No Contact has been a way to be kind, loving and tolerant to my toxic FOO.

I am no longer judging them or trying to change them.

I am no longer engaging in the dysfunctional dynamics.

I'm not adding to the chaos.

Karma and law of attraction: as I'm open to living life in new ways, as I kindly remain in No Contact and give my anger/fears/doubts to God for transformation, they are. I am.

Mango212

AA teaches kindness, love and tolerance. Yes.

To be the better person. Yes.

Perhaps leave out the "reply to the email" part? Sometimes walking away from potential conflicts can be a way of being the better person. To not engage. To not respond when being provoked.

Prayer, meditation, more will be revealed.

Prayer is a powerful action.

Pathwaytofree

Thanks everyone! You've given me excellent food for thought.

I decided to answer the email with a neutral sort of kindness that I'd treat an acquaintance with. And I kept it brief. I realized this was being kind to myself and her.

FireSprite

I like to follow the idea to "Do no harm, but take no sh$t".

I measure everyone the same when it comes to toxic vs healthy behavior. If I'm acting from a place of fear, guilt or obligation, it's not ok no matter WHO it is.

You do not get indulged in your toxicity simply because we share some DNA. If I won't tolerate it in another relationship, I won't tolerate it from family either.

And every time someone tries to tell me that's not loving, I tell them you're right - it's NOT loving to accept BS from others. Not loving toward me or them. We teach others how we want to be treated, right?

It sounds like you handled it great!

Ladybird579

Two words. Delete. Block.

NYCDoglvr

Sounds like you're carrying around quite a resentment. When I get a resentment I ask myself "what's MY part in this?" Perhaps you don't have to have any interaction with her........? I've learned to let people who annoy the hell out of my go, life is just too short. Ignore emails other contact.

Pathwaytofree

I LOVE THIS!!

This is fantastic advice. Thank you.
And every time someone tries to tell me that's not loving, I tell them you're right - it's NOT loving to accept BS from others. Not loving toward me or them. We teach others how we want to be treated, right?

It sounds like you handled it great! [/QUOTE]

Pathwaytofree

I just found a post it note in one of my big books. I wish I knew where I heard this, but I thought I'd share it here:

Be strong, but not rude
Be kind, but not weak
Be bold, but not a bully
Be humble, but not timid
Be proud, but not arrogant.

hopeful4

I would simply stay away from her. If forced, have a very casual, surface relationship and leave it at that. She sounds toxic.

Pathwaytofree

This is a very helpful reminder to me. Thank you. She starts out all nicey-nice, and then likes to pull me in with getting me alone and asking me personal questions or talking to me about our family stuff to get information out of me. Then she tells that information to my mother, or just walks around with evil pride that she got information out of me. It always makes me super uncomfortable. I told my therapist once that it feels like "emotional rape". I wonder if anyone can relate. The messages every since childhood from my siblings and mother was that PTF has no right to trust her own instincts, her own individualism, or her own boundaries and privacy. It was very harmful. Thank god for good therapists, because my former AA sponsor did not understand this situation at all, and could have caused a lot of harm if I followed her suggestions.

What you wrote reminds me of something one of my therapists said to me once, very firmly: "PTF, you and [toxic sister's name] should just be chatting about a new t.v. show or something light like that!" I guess he had difficulty getting it through to me, that I am under NO obligation to have a relationship with a anyone who is toxic, family or otherwise.

Back then, I blamed myself, believed the lies they told about me to me in order to keep me down, and I felt too "guilty" to not do what they wanted. Thank goodness after a lot of hard work in therapy and recovery, I am well passed that. But every now and then it's still a bit uncomfortable to remind myself to take care of ME FIRST and that this person is TOXIC and will likely never change.

I want to add that the last time I saw her, I instinctively did something really cool. Over my entire lifetime, she has to know every little personal thing about my life and has had zero respect about limits. True, I now see my part--so WHAT if she got angry if I didn't tell her personal stuff. That would've been on HER, not ME.

Anyway, she had recently asked some personal questions about a medical condition I have. I told her way too much. It's just what I was "brainwashed to do". I regret that, and I will not do that again, no matter how she spins it (acting like she really cares about my health, wanting to help her husband's family member with a similar condition, etc).

It then came out in conversation that she's got a new health condition. But she shut down the conversation immediately and harshly. I calmly pointed out to her the observation I made about how interesting it is that she needs to get every ounce of information out of me about my medical condition, and yet doesn't share anything with us about hers. She turned bright red. I felt so extremely empowered when I pointed this out to her. Of course my former sponsor wouldn't be happy with me that I did this, but my therapist was. It's called EMPOWERMENT!!!! It's been an extremely important part of my growth.

Someone like her will never see how she treats other people. In a way, that's sad. But I will not feel badly for her and let her continue to treat me like a doormat. I'm sure if I was homeless or going through a rough time or something, she'd say it was my own fault, and would slam the door on me, smirking on the other side of the door. That's who she is. Finds evil joy out of kicking people when they're down. Why am I under any obligation to continue to be kind to her??? I'm not.

FireSprite

Reminds me of Brene Brown's mantra for times when she struggles with this kind of stuff:

"Don't shrink. Don't Puff Up. Just stand your Sacred Ground."

Wow. I can't believe how much *I* needed to hear all this following the crazy interaction I got into first thing this morning with my very first phone call of the day. I haven't had to take a walk around the building for something like that in a long, long time!

Pathwaytofree

I LOVE Brene Brown!! That reminds me I just got her book "Rising Strong". I think I'll move it to the top of my reading pile.

Good for you for taking a breather and walking around the building!
Don't let anyone destroy your inner peace.

FireSprite

She changed my recovery game completely. I adore her.

Her next book is hitting the shelves in a couple of months!

https://www.amazon.com/Dare-Lead-Bra.../dp/0399592520


(I was just the 1st to sign up for it on my library's waiting list, lol!)

aliciagr

Your post is very interesting. In disclosure I stopped going to Alanon, but have to say Ive never ran across people in 12 step who oozed the kindness/compassion as you are describing has been instructed by your group/sponsor. I have however spent a bit of time in therapy, and I think your therapist was on the right track.. my therapist would say that much depends on the relationship between family members, and how deeply these interactions affected me. For example, I have family members who are annoying, but I can deal with them and let it go. Its a once in a while kind of thing. A good example was the professional advice requests... I have others like my MIL who may make a comment which is actually right on the border of lets bring up a sore subject or difference of opinion and have a go at it.. Or please do this for me, regardless of how it affects you. Yeah no thanks. I got to the point of having to discuss how her behaviors were affecting me, let her know I had an issue with it, and that we had to set some boundaries on topics and our relationship. Not the F'You, but in a kinder, gentler way just saying I cant have a relationship like this and if we are to continue which is something I did want - then work with me here - lets respect EACH OTHER and our individual values, ethics, feelings, outside relationships, etc.

My therapist would have encouraged this. There are people who are so far out there that this would not be possible I realize. They would not even respect or acknowledge that a relationship involves 2 people -- for those people I think maybe NC is best.

I can see a possible situation where what your AA group said may fit. Remember many people in recovery are dealing with impulse control issues.. say you have a work situation and are really stuck - then I can see where kindness, praying, working on my own coping skills, how I self internalization may be the best way to handle things. How I look at the situation and what I can find to be positive from the experience.

I am a Christian and I do believe in God bringing things my way so that I can grow as a person, and sometimes it may be so that I can have a positive impact on another person. Influence so to speak.

Pathwaytofree

That helps to hear. I've come to realize she may have had a Mother Teresa complex or something. The amends she suggested I make were ridiculous. And the behavior she expected me to put up with from people. vs standing up for myself, was nonsense.

I've been very fortunate that my recent therapists have been excellent. Well, that plus I've been a lot more open to processing what therapists say and understanding it all more. I do see in hindsight how much I let my interactions with family effect today. Interestingly enough, just today my psychiatrist said that self esteem should come from within, and not from other people. He said a person shouldn't let someone else's criticism of them effect how they feel about themselves. My first thought was my mother (she has extremely thin skin and would rage about something someone said about her). My second thought was myself. I used to let my family push my buttons. I do not know why how they treated me effected me so much.

I have family like that, too. My therapist would say, "Don't take the bait." My husband would say, "Don't get into a pissing match with a skunk." lol. Toxic people can't play their game if we are unwilling to play along with them.

Yup I have family (and friends, too) like that, and now I know that helping someone is one thing, but allowing myself to be manipulated by someone is something else, that I will not stand for.

Did she even care? I don't think people like that really care. Is she respecting your boundaries?

Wow. I don't think my family members would be capable of doing this. They'd view it as a threat to their power/control/selfishness. So I just boundaries without them realizing it.

Yup good point. I hope your MIL wasn't one of those.

That's a really good example and difference.

I love to hear that you're Christian but still stand on your own two feet and set boundaries so you're not kind to toxic people at your expense.

aliciagr

Oh this ! totally ! Same thing with my MIL and my husband. Now she is more old school in her understanding of substance use disorder but she FEELS that the ADDICT should be willing to basically get down and hands and knees and beg repentance for anything that went on while in active addiction. Be humble, have some superhuman sense of humility and such, She feels things are OWED to her, and its also a matter of his not practicing his recovery because hes not doing it right. Well his recovery hasn't been the vision of what she has in her head - and that has brought about all kinds of tears, drama, and unnecessary family interactions.

He had to go NC with her, and then tried again, and is now back to NC after some very emotional things happened. He is just not at a point to handle it.. but I now understand more about the dynamics of family, parenting, and how it all influences children, and adults.

For example, his self esteem and inner voice are so negative that it becomes basically deadly for him. A simple example of the differences between a situation with my parents vs with his mom (his dad pretty much stayed silent and worked and was a non participant in most of his childhood it seems). But if I did something wrong as a kid - or even now - LOL - my parents will look at the issue, will clearly state that they feel what I did was wrong, and this was a learning opportunity for me. And they would continue by telling my that even though what I did wasn't good - I am good. They love me.
But my husband would get the YOU are Bad, YOU did THIS. I as your mother feel you are bad... he grew up with that and it really made deep impressions in his psyche.


For the most part with me she is. we don't live near each other so mostly its by phone, email, text..
We have made some good overall progress as a family. Her husband filed for divorce but has put it on hold because she agreed to enter therapy. So many things seem to have blown up due to my husbands relapse a couple of years ago. Maybe it was meant to be for this reason - to find healing - so maybe our son can have a overall healthy family dynamic and know all his grandparents and do all the normal kid things with them. I hope so !

PuzzledHeart

I posted something about the gray rock method before:

https://lovefraud.com/the-gray-rock-...h-psychopaths/

Your family member may not be a psychopath, but she sure sounds like a vampire.

My sister has on occasion said some pretty nasty things to me in public. In the end, I just let it slide, knowing that she's just dug her ditch a little deeper. It's further proof for me that the best thing to do is avoid her.

This sounds crazy, but when I run on hot days, I bless the heat and the sun. "Thank you for teaching me how to run in the heat," I say every time I encounter an unshaded area. So when your family member goes at you, you can silently bless her for teaching you how to deal with drama queens while standing tall.

Pathwaytofree

I cannot stand this sort of attitude. My mother has this, too. It's disgusting. No one should have to put up with "tears, drama, and unnecessary family interactions" no matter what.

If your husband had to go NC for his own sanity and yours, then he did the right thing. About your point regarding family, parenting, and how it influences children & adults.... dysfunctional families have a great deal of an effect. Key for me was separating myself from it all and seeing it in hindsight.

I had that experience too, until therapy, psychiatry, step work helped teach me that my inner voice was a lie put there by sick, toxic people, and that my self esteem should come from within, and not be based on other people--especially toxic abusive people.

Your parents sounded like they were healthy parents.

I had the same exact experience and it led to a lifetime of pain, anxiety, depression, OCD, addiction, self-defeated attitude, low self esteem, low self worth, and decades of therapy trying to make rational sense of their irrational behavior. I am now free of it all.

I see them for what they were--people who didn't have a clue how to talk to their children, but who did the best they could with what they had. People who were carrying a great deal of their own emotional baggage, hurts, and pain.

As children we believe what our parents say. As adults we can look back and see what was lies and what was truth, and stand firmly in our truth today.

In my experience geographical distance helped. I set boundaries/limits with the phone, email, text. I didn't let them push my buttons. They love to push buttons and get a rise out of you. They are addicted to drama, chaos, and all that nonsense.

That's rare for the spouse to file for divorce. My dad would never had. He was the passive one who just believed everything my mother said.
That's interesting she's entering therapy. Usually people that toxic will not enter therapy. If she does it to bitch about you, your husband, and her husband, she'll get nothing out of it. If she does it to truly look within and be able to deal with the painful truth and grow, there's hope.

I keep my recovery between myself and my husband. It's not any of my parents' or family's business. And if I relapsed, they'd be the last people I would tell. Why feed the drama and chaos addicts more feed for them to create more drama and chaos?

Pathwaytofree

Thank you for that link.

These people are so miserable, they have to bring everyone around them down with them.

That's a great way to view it. It reminds me of something a sponsor once said to me: "People are either teachers or mirrors."