He’s perfect, but.....
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
In order to stop any form of abuse or violence against women one must address the cause, not the symptoms. The cause of abuse or violence against women are the perpetrators not the victims. While self-esteem is wonderful and necessary, it is not the victim's self-esteem or lack thereof that causes the perpetrator to choose his/her actions. Daily microagressions from society and unconscious internalized misogyny make life difficult for women... regardless of how far we have progressed... we still have a way to go.
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Join Date: Mar 2018
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As much as I agree with the above , I still strongly believe that curing or understanding every abuser and what their cause is is impossible. I can only work on myself and to find ways to not be a magnet for abusers. I know a lot of girls my age who have primary goals like finding a rich guy to marry. In 2018, if that's your goal , then personally they have not progressed much. Well kind of comes back to , if you're not going to spend time understanding your partner but rather spend time understanding his money , then you don't know what you're marrying.
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I had this internal battle a few decades ago and my decision was to stay out of relationships with men who show ANY sign of aggression.
It's so complicated, Ophelia. I mean, I'm sure you've read a lot about this.
As long as women are willing to set up house with these men, the men will continue to be the way they are.
I decided not to sleep with anyone again unless I was married to them. Well, I haven't found someone I would marry. Heck, I rarely go out with someone more than a handful of times. I'm older and wiser, not sure if that's a good thing. School of Hard Knocks. If every woman did that, it would force change - or rampant homosexuality. That's not going to happen.
If law enforcement was stronger, that would help - but our society has a lot of legitimate problems that cannot be cured by the justice system, we can't afford it.
I really believe it is because men are biologically larger and more aggressive (greater testosterone.) I mean, watch a gorilla family or chimps. To be fair, other primates aren't usually as cruel but they also don't have the complicated society we have, nor substance abuse. But they do fight over special treats and to the death over land/territory and family.
Until and unless women selectively start procreating only with the sensitive and kind men, there is no other way for this to go. Evolution proves it to be the case. Women are biologically in search of the guy with the brightest feathers and the biggest nest: best provider/best genetic possibility of strong offspring. We make these choices when we are young, mostly - ruled by instinct, hormones and inexperience.
It's a lot to overcome.
It's so complicated, Ophelia. I mean, I'm sure you've read a lot about this.
As long as women are willing to set up house with these men, the men will continue to be the way they are.
I decided not to sleep with anyone again unless I was married to them. Well, I haven't found someone I would marry. Heck, I rarely go out with someone more than a handful of times. I'm older and wiser, not sure if that's a good thing. School of Hard Knocks. If every woman did that, it would force change - or rampant homosexuality. That's not going to happen.
If law enforcement was stronger, that would help - but our society has a lot of legitimate problems that cannot be cured by the justice system, we can't afford it.
I really believe it is because men are biologically larger and more aggressive (greater testosterone.) I mean, watch a gorilla family or chimps. To be fair, other primates aren't usually as cruel but they also don't have the complicated society we have, nor substance abuse. But they do fight over special treats and to the death over land/territory and family.
Until and unless women selectively start procreating only with the sensitive and kind men, there is no other way for this to go. Evolution proves it to be the case. Women are biologically in search of the guy with the brightest feathers and the biggest nest: best provider/best genetic possibility of strong offspring. We make these choices when we are young, mostly - ruled by instinct, hormones and inexperience.
It's a lot to overcome.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Originally Posted by Raindrops 
I still strongly believe that curing or understanding every abuser and what their cause is is impossible
I agree that you can change your behavior to protect yourself, although I think it is very unequal that women have to change their behaviors just to be safe. Women end up adopting levels of self-vigilance that men do not even have to think about. Women spend so much time thinking about how to not "attract" perpetrators. Unfortunately domestic violence happens to woman of all economic backgrounds, education levels, and races, whether they marry rich or poor.
For example, the only thing I did wrong in my relationship was trust someone I was supposed to be able to trust. I can honestly say that. I wasn't young and naive either, I thought I was choosing well. He was a long-term family friend. My stbxAhusband, when I first met him, seemed "safe". There were some things that were "red flags" in hindsight, but it also seemed as if he was suffering from depression -- he was very sensitive, he was a victim (he had survived some things), he felt sorry for himself a lot. I now see that as a red flag, as something that could become abuse. It was when I later found out he was dishonest that the abuse started, and by then I had invested so much in the relationship both financially and emotionally, it was difficult to leave and attempts at detachment made my situation dangerous. I now do not trust men that act like the beta male and know it... because it can be an act. Not all abusers have big, colorful feathers, and teeth. Some of them hide in the bushes until it's time to strike.
My point is sometimes you simply can't know. The best you can do is get away when you find out. Personally, if I ever get involved with anyone ever again, I'm going to do a background check on them. I'd hire a P.I. Those are my current feelings about the issue. I hope I never change my mind if it keeps me safe.
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Fair point.
One of the frustrations too is that women are loathe to throw them back and men biologically want to sow their seed, so it's a system set up for conflict. Apparently they can't control that. ::eyeroll::
Birth control for women made a huge impact. At least now women have the choice to play the field sexually without the life-altering consequence of unplanned children.
One of the frustrations too is that women are loathe to throw them back and men biologically want to sow their seed, so it's a system set up for conflict. Apparently they can't control that. ::eyeroll::
Birth control for women made a huge impact. At least now women have the choice to play the field sexually without the life-altering consequence of unplanned children.
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Join Date: Oct 2017
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Originally Posted by OpheliaKatz
This is why I completely disagree with the whole: "She went back to an abusive relationship because she's a codependent" line. This puts the blame on the victim, when it's actually the perpetrator of abuse that deserves the blame. Women who are victims of abuse don't go back because they're codependent. That is too simplistic an explanation.
Women who are victims of abuse sometimes go back because he f***** with her brain... because he tells her that he'll kill himself if she does... and he tries to or has tried to multiple times (because this is his control strategy). Women go back because the intermittent cycle of reward and abuse are so extreme, that it creates an addiction to the occasional "good times" (abuse creates its own addictive cycle). Because he isolated her so much from her friends and family that he's all she knows now, the only company she has. Because he controls her money, her pets, her offspring. So she goes back. She goes back because he makes co-parenting difficult and he tries to turn her children against her. She goes back because she thinks she has no choice but to cooperate... even if she doesn't love him anymore. For some women, the only way they can leave is to kill themselves. So they do. There are many, many reasons why an abused woman keeps "going back". In fact, there's really no such thing as going back. There's "still trapped" and "free". Anyone who goes back was never really freed to begin with.
If you have ever been in a relationship like this, you'd know that they break you down so much, make you doubt yourself so much, manipulate and brainwash you and then put on their masks when they are in public so your friends and family also think that they're the sane ones and you're crazy, that you end up doubting ALL your decisions... including your decision to leave. I know a woman who ended up in jail because when her abusive husband was trying to choke her, she tried to peel his hands off her throat and her fingernail marks on his hands (and his crocodile tears) convinced the police that he was doing nothing wrong and that she was violent towards him. So she stays because she can't go to the police for safety... because she's been isolated from every avenue of rescue (she's financially dependent, her friends and family think her addict husband is a "great fun guy", and even the law are against her).
Some women side with their abusers because doing otherwise is dangerous -- fear controls their decisions, not logic. Enough exposure to fearful situations cause trauma, which can have symptoms like dissociation and depersonalisation, which makes decisions difficult. If they are made to side with their abusers often enough, it becomes a habit that's hard to break. Abusers are master manipulators.
The physical scars you see on an abused woman in the ER are only the scars you can see. You don't see the scars on her brain. You don't see the holes in her self-esteem. This is not codependency. Any treatment for codependency (like detachment), can actually put an abused woman in danger because trying to detach can actually provoke violence.
The reason you see more women in ER for injuries due to abuse, the reason that more women report it (even though it is under-reported), the reason that it's always women, women, women... is because the perpetrators of violence are mostly men. This is because of heterosexual, white, male entitlement. If you don't think this exists, TAKE A GOOD LOOK at society -- who holds the power in society. Women who speak up about abuse are NOT doormats. I have known more "happy" marriages where the wives put up with all kinds of jackassery with a smile (these women would never call this jack-ass behavior abuse) and then they say to me, "but men are like that, Okatz." Umm... no, your man, because you accept his man-child behavior, is like that. I tried to have boundaries about his man-child behavior, and then he tried to make me pay.
Women who are victims of abuse sometimes go back because he f***** with her brain... because he tells her that he'll kill himself if she does... and he tries to or has tried to multiple times (because this is his control strategy). Women go back because the intermittent cycle of reward and abuse are so extreme, that it creates an addiction to the occasional "good times" (abuse creates its own addictive cycle). Because he isolated her so much from her friends and family that he's all she knows now, the only company she has. Because he controls her money, her pets, her offspring. So she goes back. She goes back because he makes co-parenting difficult and he tries to turn her children against her. She goes back because she thinks she has no choice but to cooperate... even if she doesn't love him anymore. For some women, the only way they can leave is to kill themselves. So they do. There are many, many reasons why an abused woman keeps "going back". In fact, there's really no such thing as going back. There's "still trapped" and "free". Anyone who goes back was never really freed to begin with.
If you have ever been in a relationship like this, you'd know that they break you down so much, make you doubt yourself so much, manipulate and brainwash you and then put on their masks when they are in public so your friends and family also think that they're the sane ones and you're crazy, that you end up doubting ALL your decisions... including your decision to leave. I know a woman who ended up in jail because when her abusive husband was trying to choke her, she tried to peel his hands off her throat and her fingernail marks on his hands (and his crocodile tears) convinced the police that he was doing nothing wrong and that she was violent towards him. So she stays because she can't go to the police for safety... because she's been isolated from every avenue of rescue (she's financially dependent, her friends and family think her addict husband is a "great fun guy", and even the law are against her).
Some women side with their abusers because doing otherwise is dangerous -- fear controls their decisions, not logic. Enough exposure to fearful situations cause trauma, which can have symptoms like dissociation and depersonalisation, which makes decisions difficult. If they are made to side with their abusers often enough, it becomes a habit that's hard to break. Abusers are master manipulators.
The physical scars you see on an abused woman in the ER are only the scars you can see. You don't see the scars on her brain. You don't see the holes in her self-esteem. This is not codependency. Any treatment for codependency (like detachment), can actually put an abused woman in danger because trying to detach can actually provoke violence.
The reason you see more women in ER for injuries due to abuse, the reason that more women report it (even though it is under-reported), the reason that it's always women, women, women... is because the perpetrators of violence are mostly men. This is because of heterosexual, white, male entitlement. If you don't think this exists, TAKE A GOOD LOOK at society -- who holds the power in society. Women who speak up about abuse are NOT doormats. I have known more "happy" marriages where the wives put up with all kinds of jackassery with a smile (these women would never call this jack-ass behavior abuse) and then they say to me, "but men are like that, Okatz." Umm... no, your man, because you accept his man-child behavior, is like that. I tried to have boundaries about his man-child behavior, and then he tried to make me pay.
And many women are at this point socially isolated - and at times from family too. And yes that being controlled thing is sexy and means he cares about you m
Someone very close to me (a man) is in a terribly abusive relationship. He keeps going back time and time again as well as staying in it. His reactions are often sick too - he almost eggs it on at times. It's sad to watch really.
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When I was leaving the house my husband was at work. I was so scared that he might come back home early for some reason and at this point I did not know what his reaction would be. I called the cops to ask for security. They refused. They said if he shows up and creates a scene , to call them. I was like sir, if he pulls out a gun and shoots me - who will I call at that point ? And will it even matter ? Here I was calling a police officer , laying out my fear and he told me that he could not support me because if I was stealing something , he'd become a part of it. I was aghast. I had 4 friends helping me that day move my stuff out. I was putting everyone at risk. This is a guy who had threatened to chop me into pieces if I ever tried leaving. This is a guy who had a security camera inside the house only to keep track of everything and refused to give me access to the software.
His family and him don't even see their behavior as abuse. No matter what the consequences and how many times they are held accountable, they just don't see it as abuse. For them , they are the victims because I left them. Oblivious to the reasons of why I left. If you go into the psychology of some people, you will read about how resistant they are to even therapy. Some people lack the ability to self reflect and they lack empathy. So I have to do what I can do best- learn to read the red flags better. Unfortunately, sometimes the only way of learning is going through a situation. My husband was never an outwardly alpha male with big feathers and teeth. He comes across as the most docile , loving person. But then the mask slowly came off. He still thought he was doing all of the controlling to protect me. I needed to be protected from the big bad world outside. What I needed was to be protected from my protector.
His family and him don't even see their behavior as abuse. No matter what the consequences and how many times they are held accountable, they just don't see it as abuse. For them , they are the victims because I left them. Oblivious to the reasons of why I left. If you go into the psychology of some people, you will read about how resistant they are to even therapy. Some people lack the ability to self reflect and they lack empathy. So I have to do what I can do best- learn to read the red flags better. Unfortunately, sometimes the only way of learning is going through a situation. My husband was never an outwardly alpha male with big feathers and teeth. He comes across as the most docile , loving person. But then the mask slowly came off. He still thought he was doing all of the controlling to protect me. I needed to be protected from the big bad world outside. What I needed was to be protected from my protector.
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I am not invalidating that seemingly docile men can become abusive. It has not been my experience, is all. They show their controlling side very early on in lots of subtle ways, and then ramp it up - so I can see how it could be hard to ferret out in the beginning, especially if you have no experience with this kind of pattern of behaviors.
There are lots of stories here of people who change for the worse when they are under the influence, too.
It's super complicated, and like you say, Raindrops - get out as soon as you recognize it, it won't get better.
There are lots of stories here of people who change for the worse when they are under the influence, too.
It's super complicated, and like you say, Raindrops - get out as soon as you recognize it, it won't get better.
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Join Date: Mar 2018
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Here is what narcissism mixed with alcoholism and abuse will do to you.... for the first time in a year , yesterday, I had the courage to go to a movie theatre and not feel judged. I was told so many times that I am not fair enough , thin enough, presentable enough blah blah that my self esteem was gone. I was not even comfortable stepping out and going anywhere because I had started believing that I wasn't good enough. Yesterday I put on my jeans and went out and saw a movie by myself without the fear of being judged for my looks.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Raindrops, the cops also told me the same thing: if he tries anything then call. I said but I could be dead by then. They said, you can get a restraining order tomorrow. And in the same breath they said, 'we see a lot of drug affected violence so this is common.' I find that the domestic violence services I contacted were more helpful. I still think that the laws need to change. I have hope in the laws changing. As long as people keep talking about this problem there will be change eventually because people will become educated.
Being in a relationship that were there was drug abuse and partner abuse wore me down so gradually that when I finally broke free, going shopping for myself was a big deal. I wear color now... it's a big change. I didn't even realize that I was dressing to hide.
Being in a relationship that were there was drug abuse and partner abuse wore me down so gradually that when I finally broke free, going shopping for myself was a big deal. I wear color now... it's a big change. I didn't even realize that I was dressing to hide.
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Originally Posted by Raindrops
The problem with dating a married man is that she will always be the other woman These are women who... feel inadequate in their own ability....
My mother in law once told me - so what men cheat. You just learn to live with it. I showed her out of my door
My mother in law once told me - so what men cheat. You just learn to live with it. I showed her out of my door
People shouldn't be leeches, or be abusive, or get addicted, or steal, or live beyond their means, or lie or cheat. You see someone who does that, and continue the relationship, you are setting yourself up for heartache.
I understand how insidious it all can be. I thought Late AH would outgrow his alcoholism. And in the back of my head, a tiny voice was whispering "If you don't take this chance, you'll be alone forever. **All your friends** are in relationships." They weren't, of course. But I've gotten pretty good at owning my mistakes.
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Wareham, Mass
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One of the good things about getting older for me is the clarity of thinking that comes with time.
Like all of us, I’ve made mistakes.
More and more, I see why I did the things I did.
Like all of us, I’ve made mistakes.
More and more, I see why I did the things I did.
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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Originally Posted by Maudcat
Like all of us, I’ve made mistakes.
More and more, I see why I did the things I did.
More and more, I see why I did the things I did.
Now I listen when that thought pops up.
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