OpheliaKatz

An abused woman is also probably depressed because of the abuse. Imagine being so depressed that even making a cup of tea is difficult. Now imagine trying to navigate leaving an abusive relationship to a manipulative parasite while depressed. Having to stay might make a woman feel ashamed and as if they have to defend their choice to stay... so they publicly side with their abusers. If they do that often enough, it becomes a habit that's hard to break.

In daily life, women in general have to maintain a level of personal safety vigilance that far exceeds the awareness that men need to have of their surroundings. And if men do need to be aware of their surroundings, it's usually to watch out for other men.

I have to say, if you've ever lived through this, you're so brave, you are none of the things he's ever said you were.

OpheliaKatz

Yes I agree. Most of the perpetrators just get a warning... if you're lucky. Sometimes the law excuses criminal behaviors of domestic violence offenders by saying, "it's a domestic issue", when if a stranger did what your spouse did to you, they would throw that stranger in jail.

It's also important that the police learns about domestic violence because often the perpetrators know how to act like victims as soon as an authority figure steps into the room. This is like when child #1 punches child #2. The adult walks in when they hear child #2 scream "Mom!" Then child #1 points at child #2 and bursts into tears. The mother puts child #2 in a corner. Child #1 gets off scot-free.

atalose

Not so sure all toxic relationships are filled with codependency as much as they are filled with low self-esteem, self-betrayal and a unhealthy sense of what love is.

Example…………

A young woman goes on a first date, meets the date at a restaurant has a great conversation, she sees clearly the person is drinking none stop and starting to get drunk. She gets up to go to the restroom and upon returning to the table notices he has an ankle monitor on. She ignores that, she ignores the non-stop drinking and him getting drunk and happily plans a second date. She goes home and texts him on how much fun she had and tells him how much she can’t wait until their next date which is the next day. They proceed to spend all of their free time together because he makes HER FEEL loved, special and wanted and after a couple of weeks of knowing each other she is madly in love with him and allows him to move in with her. Then after a few months his behavior grows worse, his drinking continues to be non-stop. She desperately wants to make the relationship work so she hangs in there and keeps on trying.

A young woman goes on a first date, meets the date at a restaurant has a great conversation, she sees clearly the person is drinking none stop and starting to get drunk. She gets up to go to the restroom and upon returning to the table notices he has an ankle monitor on. She says she has to get going she squares up the bill and leaves. Moving forward she doesn’t respond to any of his phone calls, messages, emails and moves forward leaving that mess in the dust.

Which woman do you think ends up here at SR?

biminiblue

Yeah, such great posts, Ophelia and atalose.

Women are socialized to be agreeable and subservient. Part of it is that men are bigger and instinctually women had to be agreeable.

But in this day and age, women don't need men. Truly. If you are a woman in America, you can support yourself. My mother was a single mom in the 60s and 70s, and she made it work. We didn't lack much and she only had a high school education.

Unfortunately she got hooked up with a controlling abusive man as her second husband. The charmer, handsome, with his own business. I was raised around this man and came to think that, "men are like that." So when I met guys like him, I felt comfortable and followed suit. So many disasters in my life due to this falling in with charming, handsome men with money who had no compunction about treating women as property.

SLOW DOWN in relationships.

Pay attention to red flags. They aren't party favors.

FireSprite

What you are, my friend, is BRAVE.

Where you are right now is not where you'll be forever... it's just right now. I know it FEELS like it will never end (speaking from experience here) but it WILL END so long as you truly want to leave it behind where it belongs & do the "work" to make that a reality.

If you keep working through this with your own best interests in your constant focus, there is no doubt that all of those things you are missing will return to your life, even better than before. When you master self-love, self-trust & self-respect the rest of the world can't help but follow. We truly DO teach others how to treat us when we learn how to be compassionate with ourselves first.

Raindrops

Does anyone have any experience with divorcing a man like this? He is fine with divorcing me as long as I just walk away. For him - everything started and ended with "mine". Even the dog we got together , only because he had paid the rescue place the price for initial vaccinations and stuff , he claimed the dog was his too. He told me - nothing in this house belongs to you. Pack your **** and get out. I live in Texas and it is a community property state. I am standing up and fighting for myself and every single dollar that he owes me. There is no bigger loss for this man than money.

CentralOhioDad

Get a good lawyer, and let them fight it out. Get what you are entitled.

thousandwords53

Raindrops, we are divorcing the same man. You are brave, young and successful. Be thankful children aren't involved.

Example: I have made the decision to let my lawyer make determinations for me based on my legal rights- not how I "feel" ...be prepared for these men to manipulate your judgment and guilt so that you settle for less than you deserve. I was willing to walk away from everything just to be divorced from this man. One sticking point on his side that I am not being guilted into and now no settlement so we are going to trial. Which is probably for the better (for me) as the judge will not allow me to walk away from things I intended to! (benefits/retirement/spousal maint. etc)

Stay your course, be strong and get a team of supporters/reality checkers on your side. Ditto what COD said!

dandylion

Raindrops....the following website might be helpful for you to read....
It is educational in nature...and, it is arranged by state.......

www.womansdivorce.com

OpheliaKatz

Yes, this is why I think it's so important for people in abusive relationships to get therapy for family of origin issues, because those weak boundaries come from somewhere. I came from a family with almost laughably 1950s gender values (by that I mean the bad part of the 50s). For example, I remember that when I was a teenager, my father once told me that if I didn't wear more make-up I'd be too ugly to get married -- he thought this advice was "helpful". I still have to fight the urge to make a souffle when I meet a new guy (not that I meet new people often). It's a totally irrational urge -- like, it's my id talking to my logical brain.

I'm also not saying that men never experience abuse by women. It just happens less often because violence against women is more often condoned by society ("if you didn't nag him, maybe he'd not be so angry"... "if he hits you, he must like you"... etc.) and/or misunderstood ("men are violent in abusive relationships because both parties are wrong, so he's just reacting... try not to make him react."). Also, men are often less physically threatened by women than women are by men... just because of differences in physical strength (men in abusive relationships usually do not report that they fear being killed... etc.).

So, for me, this is why I think so many women "tolerate" being in relationships with addiction. Personally, I felt that if I left, there was a very strong possibility that my husband would die. I thought, "someone has to have an ambulance on speed dial." I had even tried to leave once and wrote the number on a piece of paper and stuck it next to the phone for him... and then realized that he would not be able to dial. Of course this does not mean I should have stayed with him, because he was abusive... even though he thought that his behavior was "normal".

I think toxic relationships are about weak boundaries and/or control. I know this is not a popular idea, but I think it's the spouse who has weak boundaries, and the addict who has issues with control (they think they can control their own drinking/drugging... so they don't seek help). But sometimes it could be that the spouse is controlling, so the addict becomes depressed because they have weak boundaries, so they choose to drink because they think that choosing to harm themselves or not is the only thing they can control (except they can't). If the relationship starts off seeming "normal" and then one spouse becomes controlling when addiction presents itself, it is because the controlling behavior is a reaction to an uncontrollable situation, not because the spouse was originally controlling. These relationships are always a boundary issue and control issue soup. So I think there are limits to codependency education -- you can detach emotionally and continue the relationship, but at the end of the day you have to decide if you want to be in limbo forever. For me, I think that once I detach emotionally from someone, that relationship dies. I don't think there's a right or wrong choice. Of course some choices are safer than others.

Sorry, long post.

Raindrops

For me , I need to feel emotionally connected to my partner. I could at times when he didn't have the madness of alcohol or the craving for it. He had been an alcoholic long before he met me. That Is what I gathered from all the evidence that presented itself to me and I was in his way after a while. He also gets the control gene from his mother. She likes to control people and think they are available to her disposal when she wants her needs met. I probably am the first person in their family who was resistant to all the control and it irritated the hell out of her. I mean she told me straight up- what did we get you for if you're not going to cook and clean. I told her- go get a maid. She has very strong ideas about gender roles and she wanted me to adhere to what she'd been taught. I was like it's 2018- not 1960's. She has her husband and sons under control. That's how she raised her sons. Controlled them all through college too. Her younger sister is the same way. I feel like if my mother was like that - I'd turn to alcohol too. I'd get so fed up of her calling me 6 times a day to know every movement of mine. My husband became dependent on that and expected the same from me . His younger brother - not so much. My husband started expecting that constant attention from me. I have grown up very independent because of my own family baggage. So this was the perfect storm till I got fed up of all the never ending demands and started acting out . I mean I genuinely got tired of cooking fresh dinner for him every night after working 10 hours in a day. His solution was - give up your career and just take care of me. Well... that was not what he said when we were dating so I don't know where all that came from. And then he felt that his needs weren't being met.
Having grown up in two very different family expectations was our downfall . My parents are very liberal and believe in their daughters being independent. His family wasn't like that. Alcoholism or not- why should I give up my safety net. Life is unpredictable. Anything can happen tomorrow. I have to be self sufficient and thank god I was . I did not realize the extent of his alcoholism till I found him in the closet with a bottle of vodka to his mouth. My denial broke that day and put me in a tailspin.
QUOTE=OpheliaKatz;6891685]Yes, this is why I think it's so important for people in abusive relationships to get therapy for family of origin issues, because those weak boundaries come from somewhere. I came from a family with almost laughably 1950s gender values (by that I mean the bad part of the 50s). For example, I remember that when I was a teenager, my father once told me that if I didn't wear more make-up I'd be too ugly to get married -- he thought this advice was "helpful". I still have to fight the urge to make a souffle when I meet a new guy (not that I meet new people often). It's a totally irrational urge -- like, it's my id talking to my logical brain.

I'm also not saying that men never experience abuse by women. It just happens less often because violence against women is more often condoned by society ("if you didn't nag him, maybe he'd not be so angry"... "if he hits you, he must like you"... etc.) and/or misunderstood ("men are violent in abusive relationships because both parties are wrong, so he's just reacting... try not to make him react."). Also, men are often less physically threatened by women than women are by men... just because of differences in physical strength (men in abusive relationships usually do not report that they fear being killed... etc.).

So, for me, this is why I think so many women "tolerate" being in relationships with addiction. Personally, I felt that if I left, there was a very strong possibility that my husband would die. I thought, "someone has to have an ambulance on speed dial." I had even tried to leave once and wrote the number on a piece of paper and stuck it next to the phone for him... and then realized that he would not be able to dial. Of course this does not mean I should have stayed with him, because he was abusive... even though he thought that his behavior was "normal".

I think toxic relationships are about weak boundaries and/or control. I know this is not a popular idea, but I think it's the spouse who has weak boundaries, and the addict who has issues with control (they think they can control their own drinking/drugging... so they don't seek help). But sometimes it could be that the spouse is controlling, so the addict becomes depressed because they have weak boundaries, so they choose to drink because they think that choosing to harm themselves or not is the only thing they can control (except they can't). If the relationship starts off seeming "normal" and then one spouse becomes controlling when addiction presents itself, it is because the controlling behavior is a reaction to an uncontrollable situation, not because the spouse was originally controlling. These relationships are always a boundary issue and control issue soup. So I think there are limits to codependency education -- you can detach emotionally and continue the relationship, but at the end of the day you have to decide if you want to be in limbo forever. For me, I think that once I detach emotionally from someone, that relationship dies. I don't think there's a right or wrong choice. Of course some choices are safer than others.

Sorry, long post.[/QUOTE]

PuzzledHeart

Raindrops, I second COD's recommendation to get a good lawyer, preferably a lawyer who has experience dealing with narcissists. This article may be of some use to you...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...ing-narcissist

There's a book about it too that had a write up in the NY Times...
https://www.amazon.com/Will-Ever-Fre.../dp/B00T8HSTZ4

One of my closest friends WAS married to someone who sounded very similar to your ex. He was also very high up the food chain. Every time this dude had a promotion I would just grind my teeth.

Eventually it did catch up to him. Certainly not on my timeline - it took decades. The divorce was ugly and he took her to the cleaners. That said, as the years went on, she survived and thrived in a way she couldn't have even imagined when she was married to him. I suspect that you will find yourself in the same place a couple years down the road.

Wamama48

I'm speechless. I had absolutely no idea about the depth of abuse and what it does to a woman.

A few years ago I flew out to pack my sister up and drive her to our house. She was in an abusive relationship for several years. Two weeks later she went back to him. We were angry with her and couldn't understand WHY she would do that!

Now I know. You explained the how and why of abuse very well, I now see the horror and devastation they go through behind closed doors. Its heartbreaking. How can you help an abused woman?

QUOTE=OpheliaKatz;6890919]This is why I completely disagree with the whole: "She went back to an abusive relationship because she's a codependent" line. This puts the blame on the victim, when it's actually the perpetrator of abuse that deserves the blame. Women who are victims of abuse don't go back because they're codependent. That is too simplistic an explanation.

Women who are victims of abuse sometimes go back because he f***** with her brain... because he tells her that he'll kill himself if she does... and he tries to or has tried to multiple times (because this is his control strategy). Women go back because the intermittent cycle of reward and abuse are so extreme, that it creates an addiction to the occasional "good times" (abuse creates its own addictive cycle). Because he isolated her so much from her friends and family that he's all she knows now, the only company she has. Because he controls her money, her pets, her offspring. So she goes back. She goes back because he makes co-parenting difficult and he tries to turn her children against her. She goes back because she thinks she has no choice but to cooperate... even if she doesn't love him anymore. For some women, the only way they can leave is to kill themselves. So they do. There are many, many reasons why an abused woman keeps "going back". In fact, there's really no such thing as going back. There's "still trapped" and "free". Anyone who goes back was never really freed to begin with.

If you have ever been in a relationship like this, you'd know that they break you down so much, make you doubt yourself so much, manipulate and brainwash you and then put on their masks when they are in public so your friends and family also think that they're the sane ones and you're crazy, that you end up doubting ALL your decisions... including your decision to leave. I know a woman who ended up in jail because when her abusive husband was trying to choke her, she tried to peel his hands off her throat and her fingernail marks on his hands (and his crocodile tears) convinced the police that he was doing nothing wrong and that she was violent towards him. So she stays because she can't go to the police for safety... because she's been isolated from every avenue of rescue (she's financially dependent, her friends and family think her addict husband is a "great fun guy", and even the law are against her).

Some women side with their abusers because doing otherwise is dangerous -- fear controls their decisions, not logic. Enough exposure to fearful situations cause trauma, which can have symptoms like dissociation and depersonalisation, which makes decisions difficult. If they are made to side with their abusers often enough, it becomes a habit that's hard to break. Abusers are master manipulators.

The physical scars you see on an abused woman in the ER are only the scars you can see. You don't see the scars on her brain. You don't see the holes in her self-esteem. This is not codependency. Any treatment for codependency (like detachment), can actually put an abused woman in danger because trying to detach can actually provoke violence.

The reason you see more women in ER for injuries due to abuse, the reason that more women report it (even though it is under-reported), the reason that it's always women, women, women... is because the perpetrators of violence are mostly men. This is because of heterosexual, white, male entitlement. If you don't think this exists, TAKE A GOOD LOOK at society -- who holds the power in society. Women who speak up about abuse are NOT doormats. I have known more "happy" marriages where the wives put up with all kinds of jackassery with a smile (these women would never call this jack-ass behavior abuse) and then they say to me, "but men are like that, Okatz." Umm... no, your man, because you accept his man-child behavior, is like that. I tried to have boundaries about his man-child behavior, and then he tried to make me pay.[/QUOTE]

OpheliaKatz

The way you can help is to just tell her that if she ever wanted to leave her husband, you would be by her side 100%. Don't say, "I think he's abusive and/or lying and you should leave." Because if she hasn't figured out that he's abusive, she will go to him and say, "Wamama said you were lying... is this true?" He'll just say, "Wamama is a b*****, she's jealous because we have a great relationship, I feel sorry for Wamama's husband because she's really difficult to live with... . Wamama doesn't like me, she doesn't like your choices, she's trying to control your choices, she's a bad friend/sister/mother... etc." All of this is done to separate the abused woman from ANY friend that might help her. Abuse is a spectrum that starts with lies and gas-lighting and financial control... because it's about control, if the abuser is successful, she'll side with him until she's a shell of herself. So after the abuser tells lies about you, Wamama, the abused woman will think, "I really like this man, Wamama doesn't like my choices, I can't be friends with Wamama if she doesn't respect my choices. I need people to respect me." She'll say this while feeling a bit strange about her husband, who doesn't respect her, but he'll keep her off balance just enough so that she doesn't have time to think about why she feels "strange" about his actions.

I mean, my family knew my ex was lying even before I did and since I didn't know this, I started avoiding them. When I finally found out my ex was stealing from me, I had to hope and pray that my friends and family still loved me enough to help me out even though I snubbed them. My FOO and I do have issues (don't get me wrong, FOO is always crazy... but they were nothing like my ex and they actually do love me in their own flawed way).

The abused woman will leave her relationship when and if she figures out what is happening to her. That is when she will need help and she will ask you for help as long as you leave the lines of communication open with her so she doens't feel judged. She may be embarrassed that she stayed in a relationship where she was being abused. Reassure her that you don't blame her for anything, that you believe her, and respect the healing process. There are always services that she can access too. The best thing for leaving an abusive relationship is no contact with the abuser. It's bad if they have children together, because the abuser can continue the abuse through the court system. Under NO circumstances should you volunteer to go between the two of them to "patch things up" or try to "change the man's mind" EVEN if he says he wants this. The abuser gains nothing from changing his behavior. So why should he change?

In this way, domestic violence is like addiction because the victim of violence has to want help just like how the addict has to want help.

Also: addiction does not cause violence. Any abuse or violence that comes from an addict is caused by a complex set of issues that involve his/her cultural upbringing, gender politics, mental health issues, personal values, and finally the DOC. It's not just the drug, it's a whole lot of things that cause abuse and violence. Being sober does not take away the problem. There are lots of recovering As that aren't and were never abusive. They struggle like heroes every day. My ex was not among them.

Statistically, it takes an abused woman 7 tries before she finally breaks free of her abuser.

Statistically, it takes an addict 9 tries at sobriety before they find lasting sobriety.

People who are able to break free with less tries are really amazing people with amazing strength.

OpheliaKatz

Maybe call her or see her (alone) and say that you're not angry anymore and you understand things were difficult. Tell her that you understand she had to go back, and if she ever changes her mind, you'll be there for her... but you respect any choices she makes. Then if she doesn't want to continue talking about it, change the subject and talk about something fun. Just say, "hey I'm here, I still love you." Then leave the door open in cause she needs it one day.

I don't know if that will help or not...?

Seren

I just wish women (and men) realized their own worth...that getting to know a man is a bit like a job interview--but one that takes time. Months and months or even a couple of years of time. Does this person have the qualities I admire? Are they stable emotionally and financially? How do they treat others in their life? Is there a *spark* between us? How do they handle stressful events?

That initial flush of feelings is intoxicating, but that is not love. That is infatuation and hormones I think for many, that flush of feelings is so intoxicating that any red flags are overlooked?

OpheliaKatz

Agree, not enough people treat it like a job interview, but that's a great idea.

HardLessons

Just wanted to say that this is a very powerful thread. Also I'm very sorry for all you fine women who have been so very badly abused by men. I hope you all somehow find peace & strength.

velma929

On another forum, a woman admitted to being in a relationship with a married man because it was better than no male attention at all.

It is sad that the desire to be half a couple overrides common sense.

I remember in one of my first jobs, I mentioned something about an old high school chum married to someone who wasn't working. An older woman said to me, "Well, at least she can catch a man. What's wrong with you?" Old attitudes die hard.

Raindrops

The problem with dating a married man is that she will always be the other woman and that level of respect gets carried over even if they get married. And you can bet - if a man is cheating on his wife today , there will be others after he gets together with his "other" woman too unless he has certain motives with this woman. That is no relationship. There is no respect in a relationship like that. I always told my husband - if he has vested interests in other women - he can feel free to come up to me and say it - I will let him go. He does not need to cheat behind my back- because he is disrespecting me , himself and that other woman at that point. Also , id rather do other things with my time and life than to spend it trying to catch a man. These are women who have no respect for themselves and feel inadequate in their own ability.
My mother in law once told me - so what men cheat. You just learn to live with it. I showed her out of my door and told her to take her son with her who she had passed those values onto.