SoberLink compliance - WWYD?
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SoberLink compliance - WWYD?
The deal: Ex currently has supervised visits with Kid, by court order. The visits are supervised either by me (I have agreed to do one 30-minute visit per week in a public place) or a mutually agreed-on third party (in which case visits can be longer and don't have to take place in public). (Ex has some pretty bad behavior, which is why the monitoring is strict and I'm never in a situation where I'm alone with him).
The order says he has to provide a clean SoberLink sample 30 minutes before the visit, every two hours after the first one, and 30 minutes after the visit. Ex asked for, and I agreed to, a 20-minute window around the scheduled test, because what if his phone didn't work or he gave a false positive or had technical difficulties or the sun was setting in the west, etc etc so he couldn't blow right on time. So in effect he has a "window" of 20 minutes, beginning 30 min after the end of the visit, in which he has to produce a clean sample.
Our court order also says that if ex manages eight weeks of perfect compliance, with no "alcohol related incidents", he can "graduate" to unsupervised visits with Kid (although still short-term and monitored by SoberLink).
What happened: today I supervised a 30-min visits from 2.00-2.30. He submitted a clean test before the visit. He should have submitted a clean test 30 min after the visit, with a 20 min window - so somewhere between 3.00 and 3.20. Instead he submitted a clean test at 3.22 - two minutes out of compliance.
My dilemma: do I make a big issue out of this two-minute discrepancy?
Context: ex is give-an-inch-take-a-yard. We've been through this with SoberLink, as he found every excuse possible for not submitting his test on time. I've been to court on this several times, and every time the court has found in my favor.
Ex also likes to screw around with me and try to provoke me because that means I have to stay engaged with him. It's like dealing with a two-year-old.
Finally, ex is on the verge of "graduating" to unsupervised visits next week, as that will make eight weeks since his last meltdown. He has a pattern of sabotaging his relationship with Kid by doing stupid things that he knows will result in his not being able to spend time with her. I think that at some level he doesn't actually want the effort of parenting - a half hour once a week suits him fine, because it doesn't interfere too much with his drinking and enables him to stay angry at me, the mean mommy who won't let him see his little girl because of her irrational insistence on controlling his drinking.
So being two minutes out of compliance at the moment when he's about to complete the eight weeks is predictable in some ways.
On the one hand - strict compliance means strict compliance, not sort of compliant. We have established that he is capable of complying when he chooses to. On the other hand, it was only two minutes out, I know he wasn't drunk while he was around Kid because I was right there too, and perhaps most of all I am really tired of dealing with him and tempted to just let this go.
I don't want to give him what I suspect he wants, which is yet another go-round of arguing and lawyers' involvement on the question of whether or not he is compliant. I want to disengage, not keep reengaging. On the other hand, I don't want to be a doormat, and if he gets away with pushing boundaries a little bit, next time it will be something bigger and potentially more dangerous to Kid.
If you've read this far, thanks. WWYD?
The order says he has to provide a clean SoberLink sample 30 minutes before the visit, every two hours after the first one, and 30 minutes after the visit. Ex asked for, and I agreed to, a 20-minute window around the scheduled test, because what if his phone didn't work or he gave a false positive or had technical difficulties or the sun was setting in the west, etc etc so he couldn't blow right on time. So in effect he has a "window" of 20 minutes, beginning 30 min after the end of the visit, in which he has to produce a clean sample.
Our court order also says that if ex manages eight weeks of perfect compliance, with no "alcohol related incidents", he can "graduate" to unsupervised visits with Kid (although still short-term and monitored by SoberLink).
What happened: today I supervised a 30-min visits from 2.00-2.30. He submitted a clean test before the visit. He should have submitted a clean test 30 min after the visit, with a 20 min window - so somewhere between 3.00 and 3.20. Instead he submitted a clean test at 3.22 - two minutes out of compliance.
My dilemma: do I make a big issue out of this two-minute discrepancy?
Context: ex is give-an-inch-take-a-yard. We've been through this with SoberLink, as he found every excuse possible for not submitting his test on time. I've been to court on this several times, and every time the court has found in my favor.
Ex also likes to screw around with me and try to provoke me because that means I have to stay engaged with him. It's like dealing with a two-year-old.
Finally, ex is on the verge of "graduating" to unsupervised visits next week, as that will make eight weeks since his last meltdown. He has a pattern of sabotaging his relationship with Kid by doing stupid things that he knows will result in his not being able to spend time with her. I think that at some level he doesn't actually want the effort of parenting - a half hour once a week suits him fine, because it doesn't interfere too much with his drinking and enables him to stay angry at me, the mean mommy who won't let him see his little girl because of her irrational insistence on controlling his drinking.
So being two minutes out of compliance at the moment when he's about to complete the eight weeks is predictable in some ways.
On the one hand - strict compliance means strict compliance, not sort of compliant. We have established that he is capable of complying when he chooses to. On the other hand, it was only two minutes out, I know he wasn't drunk while he was around Kid because I was right there too, and perhaps most of all I am really tired of dealing with him and tempted to just let this go.
I don't want to give him what I suspect he wants, which is yet another go-round of arguing and lawyers' involvement on the question of whether or not he is compliant. I want to disengage, not keep reengaging. On the other hand, I don't want to be a doormat, and if he gets away with pushing boundaries a little bit, next time it will be something bigger and potentially more dangerous to Kid.
If you've read this far, thanks. WWYD?
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Join Date: Dec 2017
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I would probably let it go, he probably is doing it to get a reaction out of you and I don’t think it is worth engaging. The most important thing is that he wasn’t drinking. Sober Link is very sensitive so those 2 Minutes don’t change anything especially if he has to do it every 2 hours. My RAH has to do it every 4 hours between 7 am and 7 pm and it has come up positive from the hand sanitizer he has to use for work (which he stopped doing once they figured it out). I’ve noticed that with my RAH (1.5 years) that despite the fact that he has changed a lot he still has some of the same manipulative behaviors and reactive behaviors when things don’t go his way and I basically have stopped engaging him. If I address thighs I will do after a few days so that he has has time to change his mind back and forth a few times....
Anyway good luck and take care of you
Anyway good luck and take care of you
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Join Date: Mar 2016
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I think he's goading you for another round and would let it go. It's not like he didn't blow at all, or blew positive late, then you'd have to act. One thing I never understood about SoberLink is how do you know who is blowing? Could he get someone to blow for him?
I think you are spot on that the unsupervised visits are unlikely to go ahead and he will sabotage this in some way. Active alcoholics want minimum effort for maximum fuss. Having kid for longer will just interfere with his drinking. A while back you posted that kid had said she didn't want to see him cos he crept her out. Is this still the case?
I think you are spot on that the unsupervised visits are unlikely to go ahead and he will sabotage this in some way. Active alcoholics want minimum effort for maximum fuss. Having kid for longer will just interfere with his drinking. A while back you posted that kid had said she didn't want to see him cos he crept her out. Is this still the case?
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The order says he has to provide a clean SoberLink sample 30 minutes before the visit, every two hours after the first one, and 30 minutes after the visit.
So in reality he's 22 minutes late, not two minutes late.
God he's pissing me off, and he's not even my ex.
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Join Date: Mar 2016
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I think it can be looked at two ways.. there is the technical aspect of his going 2 minutes past what was agreed upon. I can see where if he begins to take advantage and expand the time more and more it would be unacceptable. But if I was in your shoes, I think I would probably wait to see what happens next time. Sounds like this is the 1st time he was out of the time range and it was by 120 seconds.
The other issue is that he is doing this to prove that he is not drinking and able to maintain sobriety for visits with his child. Its doubtful the 20 minute range or the extra 2 minutes would alter the test result. So that's a positive at least. Whats best for the child would always be what I would try to keep in mind.
The other issue is that he is doing this to prove that he is not drinking and able to maintain sobriety for visits with his child. Its doubtful the 20 minute range or the extra 2 minutes would alter the test result. So that's a positive at least. Whats best for the child would always be what I would try to keep in mind.
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minimum effort for maximum fuss
I don't really have any right to speak up but when has that ever stopped me? So here's my take.
He was late. I'd make sure it was documented by the powers that be. I would point out to him that he was non-compliant and that I was keeping this on record for the next hearing and/or the changed supervision period hearing.
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is there any earthly REASON (not excuse) that would have prevented him (or anyone) from doing the soberlink thing on time or earlier??? it's not like the aliens dropped him off late............it's not like he and the soberlink testing thingie were four HOURS apart.
it isn't about 120 seconds. it's about not making it enough of a priority to play by the rules. IT being time with his child. which reasonable people would assume to be the most important thing ever.
this is also not a one off. this is a pattern of behavior.
it isn't about 120 seconds. it's about not making it enough of a priority to play by the rules. IT being time with his child. which reasonable people would assume to be the most important thing ever.
this is also not a one off. this is a pattern of behavior.
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Originally Posted by Sasha1972 
or the sun was setting in the west, etc etc
When I first read your post I did think - i'd just let it go. Upon reflection and reading the other responses I think that isn't the right approach.
All of this must be so exhausting for you, as someone else mentioned.
For sure I would document it, submit it, I wouldn't give him an inch - or even a cm.
Wishing you lots of strength Sasha, how you are handling this is amazing btw.
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Thanks all. No, there is no earthly reason that I am aware of that he couldn't have done the test at the scheduled time. Yes, he would rather have a grievance than a workable solution. Yes, it is part of a pattern of behavior. Yes, it is whacked that he sees testing as some sort of battle for power with me rather than as the proportionate consequence of a series of incidents in which he drove drunk, got arrested, hallucinated, got banned from property, etc. No, he doesn't seem to be prioritising time with Kid, although he pays a lot of lip service to the idea of being a great dad (when he's not even clearing the bar for "mediocre" - even the most mediocre parents pay child support and show up for their kids, at least some of the time - and most non-mediocre parents, if they were in his position, would be tripping over themselves to be compliant and co-operative because that's the only way to have more of a relationship with Kid than can be managed in mall food courts and awkward encounters in other people's homes).
Anyway - from what I know of him, the most likely reason he's late with the testing is to get a reaction from me, like the toddler who puts one toe over the line and looks around to see if Mom is watching. One of the first rules of toddler-parenting is not to reward negative attention-seeking behavior. If he is being ambivalent about "graduating" to unsupervised time, he'll do something else more obviously drastic, and then it will be an open-and-shut matter to move back down the ladder to supervised-only. More will be revealed. Right now, arguing a two-minute delay would be ambiguous (and expensive in terms of lawyer time, because his lawyer will be all over this).
So I think what I will do is flag this to my lawyer, so there's a record, but tell him that I'm not going to act on it unless there is more evidence of non-compliance - sort of like staying criminal charges but not dropping them. This is not an ideal solution, but I think it's the least-worst in this situation.
Thanks for helping me think this through (or reading while I attempt to think this through on a screen!).
Anyway - from what I know of him, the most likely reason he's late with the testing is to get a reaction from me, like the toddler who puts one toe over the line and looks around to see if Mom is watching. One of the first rules of toddler-parenting is not to reward negative attention-seeking behavior. If he is being ambivalent about "graduating" to unsupervised time, he'll do something else more obviously drastic, and then it will be an open-and-shut matter to move back down the ladder to supervised-only. More will be revealed. Right now, arguing a two-minute delay would be ambiguous (and expensive in terms of lawyer time, because his lawyer will be all over this).
So I think what I will do is flag this to my lawyer, so there's a record, but tell him that I'm not going to act on it unless there is more evidence of non-compliance - sort of like staying criminal charges but not dropping them. This is not an ideal solution, but I think it's the least-worst in this situation.
Thanks for helping me think this through (or reading while I attempt to think this through on a screen!).
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One thing I never understood about SoberLink is how do you know who is blowing? Could he get someone to blow for him?
It is linked to your phone. You open the app and it has face recognition. You blow while you hold the phone in front of your face. So I think it would be almost impossible to have someone else do it for you
It is linked to your phone. You open the app and it has face recognition. You blow while you hold the phone in front of your face. So I think it would be almost impossible to have someone else do it for you
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Originally Posted by Sleepyhollo
One thing I never understood about SoberLink is how do you know who is blowing? Could he get someone to blow for him?
It is linked to your phone. You open the app and it has face recognition. You blow while you hold the phone in front of your face. So I think it would be almost impossible to have someone else do it for you
It is linked to your phone. You open the app and it has face recognition. You blow while you hold the phone in front of your face. So I think it would be almost impossible to have someone else do it for you
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You can't forget that you are dealing with master manipulators. If you don't take issue with it, he has started chipping away at more. If you do, he gets to keep you emeshed to his satisfaction.
2 minutes does seem nit pickey to many and it is in some context. However you gave him a 20 minute window to avoid just exactly this type thing. So instead of blowing 20 minutes before, he blows at 19 minutes and 30 seconds, just to prove he is in control of this.
If you go to court with this, you would probably win, but it may also come off as being vindictive. Not to mention the cost and time commitment to do it. It just fuels the never ending needs for thier dramas.
I'd make a record of it, document the results in any way possible to keep like a diary. For future bigger problems he will create.
And I'd not advise him you are doing so. This gives him more rope to hang himself.
He's is going to blow this....you know he is. Wait for it to be a bigger mis-deed, then add this to it.
2 minutes does seem nit pickey to many and it is in some context. However you gave him a 20 minute window to avoid just exactly this type thing. So instead of blowing 20 minutes before, he blows at 19 minutes and 30 seconds, just to prove he is in control of this.
If you go to court with this, you would probably win, but it may also come off as being vindictive. Not to mention the cost and time commitment to do it. It just fuels the never ending needs for thier dramas.
I'd make a record of it, document the results in any way possible to keep like a diary. For future bigger problems he will create.
And I'd not advise him you are doing so. This gives him more rope to hang himself.
He's is going to blow this....you know he is. Wait for it to be a bigger mis-deed, then add this to it.
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I will share that I tried to make a big deal out of similar infractions - multiple situations where he was twenty minutes past his hour long grace period. I felt like it was a big deal, but his attorney used it to portray me as controlling / unreasonable. So I would document it and let it go, bringing it up in court only if there is a sustained pattern.
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Originally Posted by Hangnbyathread
You can't forget that you are dealing with master manipulators. If you don't take issue with it, he has started chipping away at more. If you do, he gets to keep you emeshed to his satisfaction.
2 minutes does seem nit pickey to many and it is in some context. However you gave him a 20 minute window to avoid just exactly this type thing. So instead of blowing 20 minutes before, he blows at 19 minutes and 30 seconds, just to prove he is in control of this.
If you go to court with this, you would probably win, but it may also come off as being vindictive. Not to mention the cost and time commitment to do it. It just fuels the never ending needs for thier dramas.
I'd make a record of it, document the results in any way possible to keep like a diary. For future bigger problems he will create.
And I'd not advise him you are doing so. This gives him more rope to hang himself.
He's is going to blow this....you know he is. Wait for it to be a bigger mis-deed, then add this to it.
2 minutes does seem nit pickey to many and it is in some context. However you gave him a 20 minute window to avoid just exactly this type thing. So instead of blowing 20 minutes before, he blows at 19 minutes and 30 seconds, just to prove he is in control of this.
If you go to court with this, you would probably win, but it may also come off as being vindictive. Not to mention the cost and time commitment to do it. It just fuels the never ending needs for thier dramas.
I'd make a record of it, document the results in any way possible to keep like a diary. For future bigger problems he will create.
And I'd not advise him you are doing so. This gives him more rope to hang himself.
He's is going to blow this....you know he is. Wait for it to be a bigger mis-deed, then add this to it.
To probably no one's surprise at all, he's blown it again. He had another supervised visit today, which requires him to test 30 minutes before the visit, with a 20-minute window for "technical problems". He didn't test until 9 minutes after the 20-minute window was over, and that was only after Kid (without my knowledge) sent him a text asking "we're supposed to have a visit and why haven't you tested?". His excuse this time was "I had trouble connecting on the other side of the lake", whatever that means.
I made an on-the-spot judgment call to not cancel the visit, so Kid had a lovely 30 minute supervised visit with her bloated, tremor-y, father (who now appears to be wearing a Superman-colored wig - apparently he had to have his fauxhawk shaved "when they took the staples out of [my] head" - don't even ask ...).
I've written it all up for my lawyer and sent it off. I am honestly not sure what to do. Ex appears to be sabotaging his own chances at getting unsupervised visits with Kid, which are dependent on him complying with the agreed-on SoberLink testing protocol. With these two fails, I'm thinking I have to re-set the supervised visit countdown.
This means that I get to supervise more visits in crappy food courts with Kid (because I will only supervise visits in a public place), and ex gets to get all indignant because Sasha the effing bee-yatch is keeping him from precious bonding time with his daughter. He loves having grievances and will go out of his way to engineer situations in which he can collect them. In a really sick way, I think these grievances are a way to holding onto contact with me and other people.
I'm not going to do anything, including communicating with ex, until I hear what my lawyer thinks.
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At some point, I started pushing things further as my backbone strengthened, and as God guided me.
Is there any way to change the whole agreement as he keeps messing it up? Being with a healthy parent is way better for kids than required visitation with a parent who is not able or willing to take care of court agreements.
Your health also is much more than his visitation rights at this point.
Is there any way to change the whole agreement as he keeps messing it up? Being with a healthy parent is way better for kids than required visitation with a parent who is not able or willing to take care of court agreements.
Your health also is much more than his visitation rights at this point.
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Originally Posted by Sasha1972
^^^ nailed it.
To probably no one's surprise at all, he's blown it again. He had another supervised visit today, which requires him to test 30 minutes before the visit, with a 20-minute window for "technical problems". He didn't test until 9 minutes after the 20-minute window was over, and that was only after Kid (without my knowledge) sent him a text asking "we're supposed to have a visit and why haven't you tested?". His excuse this time was "I had trouble connecting on the other side of the lake", whatever that means.
I made an on-the-spot judgment call to not cancel the visit, so Kid had a lovely 30 minute supervised visit with her bloated, tremor-y, father (who now appears to be wearing a Superman-colored wig - apparently he had to have his fauxhawk shaved "when they took the staples out of [my] head" - don't even ask ...).
I've written it all up for my lawyer and sent it off. I am honestly not sure what to do. Ex appears to be sabotaging his own chances at getting unsupervised visits with Kid, which are dependent on him complying with the agreed-on SoberLink testing protocol. With these two fails, I'm thinking I have to re-set the supervised visit countdown.
This means that I get to supervise more visits in crappy food courts with Kid (because I will only supervise visits in a public place), and ex gets to get all indignant because Sasha the effing bee-yatch is keeping him from precious bonding time with his daughter. He loves having grievances and will go out of his way to engineer situations in which he can collect them. In a really sick way, I think these grievances are a way to holding onto contact with me and other people.
I'm not going to do anything, including communicating with ex, until I hear what my lawyer thinks.
To probably no one's surprise at all, he's blown it again. He had another supervised visit today, which requires him to test 30 minutes before the visit, with a 20-minute window for "technical problems". He didn't test until 9 minutes after the 20-minute window was over, and that was only after Kid (without my knowledge) sent him a text asking "we're supposed to have a visit and why haven't you tested?". His excuse this time was "I had trouble connecting on the other side of the lake", whatever that means.
I made an on-the-spot judgment call to not cancel the visit, so Kid had a lovely 30 minute supervised visit with her bloated, tremor-y, father (who now appears to be wearing a Superman-colored wig - apparently he had to have his fauxhawk shaved "when they took the staples out of [my] head" - don't even ask ...).
I've written it all up for my lawyer and sent it off. I am honestly not sure what to do. Ex appears to be sabotaging his own chances at getting unsupervised visits with Kid, which are dependent on him complying with the agreed-on SoberLink testing protocol. With these two fails, I'm thinking I have to re-set the supervised visit countdown.
This means that I get to supervise more visits in crappy food courts with Kid (because I will only supervise visits in a public place), and ex gets to get all indignant because Sasha the effing bee-yatch is keeping him from precious bonding time with his daughter. He loves having grievances and will go out of his way to engineer situations in which he can collect them. In a really sick way, I think these grievances are a way to holding onto contact with me and other people.
I'm not going to do anything, including communicating with ex, until I hear what my lawyer thinks.
The man...errr...woman....err...whatever is truly hanging himself here.
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