Is this his alcoholic voice trying to manipulate me?

Old 04-04-2018, 01:51 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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I don't consider myself an expert by any means, but when I see the words....alcoholic, voice and manipulate in the same sentence, the words "heck yes" comes to mind every time.
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Old 04-04-2018, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bernadette View Post
That email would really p*ss me off! Like, any response you give lowers things to a level where you are either approving or disapproving....it is so manipulative.

I loved this article. It's up to date research on the alcoholic thinking/poor recovery participation that leads to drinking again.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4553654/

I learned a lot from it and can see these behaviors so clearly in my A bros as they slide along in a weak recovery pattern just long enough to keep their codependent women fooled and then they resume drinking and it is instantly worse than before.

But if he wants to do "further research" that's his choice and his alone. I'd keep him away from the children; what you saw before is what you'll see again. And what they/we never know is if will they be able to pull out of the inevitable flaming tailspin before they crash and burn this time. Let go or be dragged.

Peace,
B.
This article you linked. Wow. I read it, substituting “addicted to alcoholic abusive men,” and could see very clearly what my path of recovery needs to look like. Thank you for sharing, B. I think that article should be a sticky.
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Old 04-04-2018, 06:26 AM
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If his past history with stopping drinking was unhappy, withdrawn dry drunk behavior but this time he’s not showing any of that but rather a happy go lucky attitude, he’s still drinking. And he’s trying to set the stage to be able to get right back into his old life drinking openly and when he wants to.
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:10 AM
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He says that he wants a “reboot” to try drinking again now that he is in a “more clear mind”. He says this is something he feels he needs to do. Quote from his email: “I need to know if changing my thought process, beliefs and being honest with myself will make a difference. I know this will be difficult for you and I have wanted to talk about this, but I dread hurting you. I need you to know that I am being honest with myself, I need to see if I can do this and if it resembles what we’ve gone through before, I will know that I can’t. Simple as that! I don’t want to live like we have over the past year, I want to have a normal, happy life with you and I believe we can.” He also includes a bunch of excuses for why his drinking got as bad as it did (religious upbringing, social anxiety, etc)

Yes quack, quack, quack.....same as all the bs my exah came out with when he had cut back a bit ( not stopped despite him saying he had) and wanted to resume normal drinking sessions without "rocking the boat." He'd asked my "permission" to deflect the responsibility from himself and also to be able to say well you never said not too. ( that is cos I didn't care what he did by this time as long as I could feed the kids and pay the bills) Or he's say he deserved"a little drink" cos he had done such and such and it would be unreasonable of me to stop him enjoying himself. Then it was back to it the same as before only moreso. His other classic was saying he'd stop after the weekend. Everyday was a weekend for him. He never, ever stopped.
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:28 AM
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Your comment Sailorgirl, and reading the article that Bernadette posted really resonated with me also. I've been REALLY working hard to notice that I have been in a position where someone else's behaviour and feelings have been more important than mine for my entire life! And I've been in my AH's lane for the last three months worse than ever before.

I seem to be able to put my worries and concerns about the alcoholic aside for a day or two, but find that if I don't keep working hard on this every day I slip into finding a way to help him or understand him. I lie to myself about how the circumstances are 'different' this time. It's always easy for me to find an excuse.... Then it just becomes all about semantics. A few days ago he told me that he had really wanted a drink but he pictured me being disappointed etc etc (similar to the OP email) and I saw how words like that just suck me right back into thinking that I do have some control after all. Luckily (and unusually) I saw it in the moment of the conversation and challenged him with a "really? You're only sober right now because of me?" And he said, no, and was a bit more honest and forthcoming. So it's like I'm an addict to codependancy, and he encourages me, and part of that is about his alcoholic manipulative mind, and the other part is because I have engaged him and taken part in these games for decades. I don't think it helps to try and figure out what part of his mind wrote that email. Even thinking and writing about what my AH's possible motives could be or his behaviours is a way I slide back.

How we get out of this, I think, is different for everyone. For me, I am practicing three little things every day that I do for me whether I want to or not, I'm working through step four, going to councelling and alanon, exercising, tidying my house, and I keep reading about codependancy and writing down my individual traits. I think exercise and mindful walking have been really good for me because they bring me back into feeling my body and who I am and away from unhealthy thoughts.
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Old 04-04-2018, 02:34 PM
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Hi

I could have written your situation. Except it sounds like your husband had more of a significant mindset shift for a period of time than mine. Mine seems stuck in the white knuckling it stage.

I have young kids, my AH started with social drinking that was a bit out of control and graduated to something he couldn't stop and into bad decision making that endangers my kids and others with small bouts of not drinking stints in between. I am also the breadwinner and his job had a lot more flexibility than mine.

I can confirm a lot f what these people are saying. In my experience it just keeps getting worse. I actually moved out prior to deciding to divorcing him and I have gotten to see his true colors. It's been ugly. Our divorce will finalize soon.

Him justifying his drinking sounds like a huge red flag to me. I just want to shake these guys. Like WHY RISK YOUR FAMILY??? I just think they truly can't see it.
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Old 04-07-2018, 11:21 AM
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I think the only "reboot" he needs to experience may be your foot in his backside as he's going out the door. You deserve more than half hearted attempts and excuses. He obviously doesn't get it. Maybe it's time to show him. We alcoholics are thick skulled sometimes.
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Old 04-08-2018, 03:53 AM
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I can relate to this post at the moment too. My AH has been “dry” only a month but with no support so he’s basically white knuckling. The last few days he’s dropped a few “hints” about wanting to drink again. These are some of the things he’s said to give you an idea.

(Whilst watching a TV programme where ghost hunters were investigating Jim Beam distillery)
“That’s maybe the type of drink that’d be nice to have just as a nightcap.. instead of lots of cider?”

“I’d like to think I can still have a drink of SOMETHING once in a while?”

“Every time I think about having a glass of wine I feel like I’d be undoing all the good I’ve done - silly eh?” (Like eating a doughnut when you are on a diet?)

All the time though I realise he’s trying to probe ME into giving him the green light. If they want to drink then why do they need our “permission” first? So they can blame us! So we can’t complain!

It is so hard to react with a measured and controlled response that doesn’t accidentally give the impression we are “telling” them what to do or not to do but at the same time - not displaying enough complacency to give the impression we won’t mind if they do have just that “one small drink”.
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Old 04-08-2018, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by RainingButtons View Post
...It is so hard to react with a measured and controlled response that doesn’t accidentally give the impression we are “telling” them what to do or not to do but at the same time - not displaying enough complacency to give the impression we won’t mind if they do have just that “one small drink”.
What I'd suggest (where possible, depending on the current availability of patience required to respond in that measured and calm, detached way) would be to try to respond with a question designed to help him realise for himself the insanity of what he's just said.

This,to you (sober and not engaged in an inner debate with an addict voice) might seem like staying the bloomin' obvious. But if he has that AV screaming at him, this can be really helpful. Obviously, it'd be better if he got himself a sponsor to do this with him, but while he's resistant to this and you want to support him I'd say it's worth a shot.

So, for example....

"That’s maybe the type of drink that’d be nice to have just as a nightcap.. instead of lots of cider?”
"Do you think changing types of alcoholic drinks will make a difference though? (Did you try that already? -if he did. Most As have already tried that plenty of times) - or is it actually the alcohol that is the problem?"

“I’d like to think I can still have a drink of SOMETHING once in a while?”
"That's an interesting idea. What do you think would happen once you'd drunk that something?".... "And then?"...."And then?"....

“Every time I think about having a glass of wine I feel like I’d be undoing all the good I’ve done - silly eh?” (Like eating a doughnut when you are on a diet?)
(As above.)

You telling him what he doesn't want to hear is never going to work. You encouraging him to say what he doesn't want to hear might not either, but it's worth a shot perhaps. This is generaly how my sponsor helped me to stop listening to my own rationalisation (excuses) for possibly taking a drink, well, that and sharing her own experiences which might be a little more tricky in your situation.

If it doesn't work or there are times that it's not possible to engage in that conversation in a detached way, then I would just unashamedly change the subject each time he mentions drinking. But that's just me perhaps.

BB
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Old 04-09-2018, 03:37 PM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Hi, want to thank everyone for your replies. I was wavering and needed some “tough love” from you all to keep my resolve. You are right that there is no place for this in our home. And it’s not going to be any different this time. I’m starting to make plans for what happens if he starts drinking again. I called a lawyer today to set up a consult and looked into the Alanon schedule here. It’s just so sad that it has come to this but it is what it is. The safety of my kids and my sanity need to be my priority. Thank you 🙂
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Old 04-09-2018, 03:42 PM
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And to angrymarble, batchel, rainingbuttons, and any others that are in similar situations, hugs to you. We will get through this.
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