Do you know the difference between a survivor & a victim?
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Do you know the difference between a survivor & a victim?
Originally Posted by lillamy 
My youngest -- sometimes, I think the healthiest one -- caught me crying in the car today and she said, "mom, you know what the difference is between survivors and victims? Survivors use their past to propel them forward. Victims use their past to refuse moving ahead."
She's 12. And a whole lot smarter than I am, some days...
She's 12. And a whole lot smarter than I am, some days...
It took me a while to dig this back up out of an old thread but it was worth it.
So which label do you identify most with in your recovery right now?
Are you holding tightly to your past & letting your wounds speak for you?
Or are you recovering?... .and if so - let's talk a bit about THAT instead of all this chatter dissecting the qualifying reasons we're all here.
None of us need to continue validating that we belong here..... even if your path has had many setbacks or obstacles..... but what are we all DOING about it?
How are you moving beyond surviving & into Thriving?
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Wow such wisdom. Absolutely identifying as a victim will keep you stuck. Its okay to know that at some point you have been victimized by an alcoholic or a situation but to live in that state of mind you are only victimizing yourself. I was a victim for so long until I learned to take responsibility for my own life. I am a survivor. A survivor of physical & emotional abuse, cancer, stalking, lack of self esteem, naivety and youth. Make no mistake I am not a victim I willingly participated in most of it and I willingly decided enough is enough. It is the most freeing thing to take control of your own life and you can't do that while staying a victim.
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I was definitely a victim. Over and over, in every relationship. NO MORE!!
This place was such an eye opener for me. There is nothing in this world quite like the slow but stark realization that YOU are the problem....when you've been running around for 2 decades asking "why do they do this to me?!"
This place was such an eye opener for me. There is nothing in this world quite like the slow but stark realization that YOU are the problem....when you've been running around for 2 decades asking "why do they do this to me?!"
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I just learned about codependancy about a month ago. I'm 48 years old and had no idea there was such a thing! But I'm working hard to change me for the better. Can you explain the difference between a victim and a survivor from a codependancy point of view?
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I feel like I am starting to get out of survivor mode and make the next step, thriving mode!
I really want a tatoo that says Survive, Strive, Thrive on it!
Sometimes that means that I have to take a step back and go into that stuck victim stuff (like the topic of new relationships recently) to move what needs to clear for the next step.
I really want a tatoo that says Survive, Strive, Thrive on it!
Sometimes that means that I have to take a step back and go into that stuck victim stuff (like the topic of new relationships recently) to move what needs to clear for the next step.
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My victimhood kept me stuck in active alcoholism and then codependency.
Staying out of feeling sorry for myself, a victim of circumstance, blaming other people, places and things for my troubles is something I continue to stay aware of.
I still catch myself, old thinking patterns pop up like muscle memory
Staying out of feeling sorry for myself, a victim of circumstance, blaming other people, places and things for my troubles is something I continue to stay aware of.
I still catch myself, old thinking patterns pop up like muscle memory
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Originally Posted by Wamama48
Can you explain the difference between a victim and a survivor from a codependancy point of view?
For me, it all comes down to Attitude. Am I going to be broken by these events forever & carry this damage forward in my definition of Self always?? Am I going to spread it to others like an infection?
Or can I ~somehow, through a hodge-podge of methods & healing tools~ find a way to drop that Label from my Identity & move forward in life without carrying that heavy baggage on my shoulders every step of the way?
When we carry our wounds forward & use them to tell our story, is it really ALL of our story? Does it deserve to be the main theme/highlight of our life's journey? We're made of so much more than that! Caroline Myss has a great example of witnessing a person live their life through their wounds... in this example, the person has undergone years of therapy & healed a ton of her damage, but was still tied tightly to it as a huge part of her Identity:
Prior to beginning the weeklong workshop, I had arranged to have lunch with my dear friend Mary. Having arrived early in the dining room, I joined two gentlemen for tea. Mary entered a while later, and when she walked over to our table, I introduced her to my companions. She had just extended her hand to greet them when another member of the Findhorn community, Wayne, came up to her and asked, "Mary, are you busy on June eighth? We're looking for someone to escort a guest coming to Findhorn for the day."
The tone of Mary's response was as revealing as its length. She snapped, "June eighth? Did you say June eighth?" Suffused with anger and resentment, she continued, "Absolutely not! June eighth is my incest support group meeting, and I would never, ever miss that meeting! We count on each other, after all. We incest victims have to be there for one another. I mean, who else do we have?"
Mary went on for a while longer, but this is as much as I can accurately remember. I was captivated by the instantaneous dramatics triggered by a simple question about her schedule. Wayne hardly took notice of her response, thanked her, and left, but I was astonished. Later, as Mary and I were having lunch, I asked her about her behavior:
"Mary, why, when you were answering Wayne's question about your schedule, did you have to let all three men know that you had suffered incest as a young girl, that you were still angry about it, that you were angry with men in general, and that you intended to control the atmosphere of the conversation with your anger? All Wayne asked you was, `Are you busy June eighth?' and in response you gave these three men a miniature therapy class. A simple yes or no would have done fine."
Mary looked at me as if I had betrayed her. Her body stiffened, and she emphasized her words in an ice-cold, defensive tone: "I answered that way because I am a victim of incest." She drew back from the table, stopped eating, and threw her napkin over her plate, indicating that our lunch together had come to a close. Although I didn't realize it at that moment, so had our friendship.
"Mary, honey," I replied, softening my own tone somewhat, "I know you're a victim of incest, but what I'm trying to figure out is why you found it necessary to tell two strangers and Wayne your history when all he wanted to know was whether you could help out on June eighth. Did you want these men to treat you a certain way or talk to you in a certain way? What made you lay your wounds out on the table within seven seconds of meeting two new people?"
Mary told me that I simply did not understand because I had not endured what she and numerous other incest victims had gone through, but that she had expected me as a friend to be more compassionate. I replied that lack of compassion had nothing to do with what I was asking her. I could feel the separation of energy between us as I realized that in order for our friendship to continue, I needed to "speak wounds" to Mary, to follow some very specific rules of how a supportive friend was to behave, and to bear always in mind that she defined herself by a negative experience.
The tone of Mary's response was as revealing as its length. She snapped, "June eighth? Did you say June eighth?" Suffused with anger and resentment, she continued, "Absolutely not! June eighth is my incest support group meeting, and I would never, ever miss that meeting! We count on each other, after all. We incest victims have to be there for one another. I mean, who else do we have?"
Mary went on for a while longer, but this is as much as I can accurately remember. I was captivated by the instantaneous dramatics triggered by a simple question about her schedule. Wayne hardly took notice of her response, thanked her, and left, but I was astonished. Later, as Mary and I were having lunch, I asked her about her behavior:
"Mary, why, when you were answering Wayne's question about your schedule, did you have to let all three men know that you had suffered incest as a young girl, that you were still angry about it, that you were angry with men in general, and that you intended to control the atmosphere of the conversation with your anger? All Wayne asked you was, `Are you busy June eighth?' and in response you gave these three men a miniature therapy class. A simple yes or no would have done fine."
Mary looked at me as if I had betrayed her. Her body stiffened, and she emphasized her words in an ice-cold, defensive tone: "I answered that way because I am a victim of incest." She drew back from the table, stopped eating, and threw her napkin over her plate, indicating that our lunch together had come to a close. Although I didn't realize it at that moment, so had our friendship.
"Mary, honey," I replied, softening my own tone somewhat, "I know you're a victim of incest, but what I'm trying to figure out is why you found it necessary to tell two strangers and Wayne your history when all he wanted to know was whether you could help out on June eighth. Did you want these men to treat you a certain way or talk to you in a certain way? What made you lay your wounds out on the table within seven seconds of meeting two new people?"
Mary told me that I simply did not understand because I had not endured what she and numerous other incest victims had gone through, but that she had expected me as a friend to be more compassionate. I replied that lack of compassion had nothing to do with what I was asking her. I could feel the separation of energy between us as I realized that in order for our friendship to continue, I needed to "speak wounds" to Mary, to follow some very specific rules of how a supportive friend was to behave, and to bear always in mind that she defined herself by a negative experience.
(there is also a book & audio CD lecture on this "Why People Don't Heal and How They Can"
A lot of people heal in a way that allows them to carry their wounds forward in a "new" way - over their lifetimes they have become INVESTED in this being part of their self-identity & the idea of living life without that lens is truly unimaginable. They can also get so lost in the opposite direction - diving so deeply into therapy that it becomes an ongoing habit that replaces the original wound & festers in a new way.
This dynamic calls to mind a famous saying of the Buddha. "My teachings are a raft," he said, "meant to help you cross over the river. Once you get to the other shore, set them down and go on with your life." "The other shore" was the Buddha's way of describing enlightenment, the goal of his teachings. Once enlightened, continue to live your life, he was saying--just don't carry the raft around with you!
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For me, it all comes down to Attitude. Am I going to be broken by these events forever & carry this damage forward in my definition of Self always?? Am I going to spread it to others like an infection?......I like this part, asking yourself if you will carry that damage forever, making it a large part of yourself.
And this part......find a way to drop that Label from my Identity & move forward in life without carrying that heavy baggage on my shoulders every step of the way? We have to find a way to drop that IDENTITY from ourselves. Keeping walking forward and don't look back, we aren't going that way. Food for thought, thanks!!!
For me, it all comes down to Attitude. Am I going to be broken by these events forever & carry this damage forward in my definition of Self always?? Am I going to spread it to others like an infection?
Or can I ~somehow, through a hodge-podge of methods & healing tools~ find a way to drop that Label from my Identity & move forward in life without carrying that heavy baggage on my shoulders every step of the way?
When we carry our wounds forward & use them to tell our story, is it really ALL of our story? Does it deserve to be the main theme/highlight of our life's journey? We're made of so much more than that! Caroline Myss has a great example of witnessing a person live their life through their wounds... in this example, the person has undergone years of therapy & healed a ton of her damage, but was still tied tightly to it as a huge part of her Identity:
Source: https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nyti...myss-heal.html
(there is also a book & audio CD lecture on this "Why People Don't Heal and How They Can"
A lot of people heal in a way that allows them to carry their wounds forward in a "new" way - over their lifetimes they have become INVESTED in this being part of their self-identity & the idea of living life without that lens is truly unimaginable. They can also get so lost in the opposite direction - diving so deeply into therapy that it becomes an ongoing habit that replaces the original wound & festers in a new way.[/QUOTE]
And this part......find a way to drop that Label from my Identity & move forward in life without carrying that heavy baggage on my shoulders every step of the way? We have to find a way to drop that IDENTITY from ourselves. Keeping walking forward and don't look back, we aren't going that way. Food for thought, thanks!!!
For me, it all comes down to Attitude. Am I going to be broken by these events forever & carry this damage forward in my definition of Self always?? Am I going to spread it to others like an infection?
Or can I ~somehow, through a hodge-podge of methods & healing tools~ find a way to drop that Label from my Identity & move forward in life without carrying that heavy baggage on my shoulders every step of the way?
When we carry our wounds forward & use them to tell our story, is it really ALL of our story? Does it deserve to be the main theme/highlight of our life's journey? We're made of so much more than that! Caroline Myss has a great example of witnessing a person live their life through their wounds... in this example, the person has undergone years of therapy & healed a ton of her damage, but was still tied tightly to it as a huge part of her Identity:
Source: https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nyti...myss-heal.html
(there is also a book & audio CD lecture on this "Why People Don't Heal and How They Can"
A lot of people heal in a way that allows them to carry their wounds forward in a "new" way - over their lifetimes they have become INVESTED in this being part of their self-identity & the idea of living life without that lens is truly unimaginable. They can also get so lost in the opposite direction - diving so deeply into therapy that it becomes an ongoing habit that replaces the original wound & festers in a new way.[/QUOTE]
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It drives me crazy when people identify themselves by the terrible thing that happens to them. Those things that happened to them are horrible, but that's not all of them, just a part of them.
My sister always mentions that she has a TBI and PTSD to almost every new person she meets. Her entire life revolves around those two things and she is miserable. I recommended she read Codependant No More, which she read. She said she saw so much of herself in it.
She doesn't plan on making changes. I refuse to live that way. I'm moving forward, I want to live life, not just exist.
My sister always mentions that she has a TBI and PTSD to almost every new person she meets. Her entire life revolves around those two things and she is miserable. I recommended she read Codependant No More, which she read. She said she saw so much of herself in it.
She doesn't plan on making changes. I refuse to live that way. I'm moving forward, I want to live life, not just exist.
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Originally Posted by Wamama48
She doesn't plan on making changes. I refuse to live that way. I'm moving forward, I want to live life, not just exist.
(and good for you for accepting that embracing recovery ~or not~ is her choice)
My mom is a professional victim & it's just such a sad, empty way to live life IMO. I can't indulge it & she gets noticeably agitated & upset every time I try to turn a negative into a positive, every time I see any silver lining or reach for the good. It's exhaustive work to be in her presence just carrying a conversation so our differences in this area have created a huge chasm in our relationship that is hard to ignore, but is also completely misunderstood by her.
To her, my healthy boundaries are punishment of some sort. Not so - it's my acceptance of the limits of my control. I'm not trying to change her but I'm not taking a front row seat to the dysfunctional show any longer. My time is better spent in many other ways.
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^^ Ugg FS - I swear we have the same mom.
Shes in complete "life sucks" mode since we lost my dad 2 years ago. I cannot imagine losing a spouse after 40 years of marriage, however I don't remember her really being happy EVER.
Now shes spiraling on "I don't know you kids, I don't even know your favorite color!" I'm sure she feels that way to an extent...we don't keep in touch as much as we probably should because it sucks so much out of us to talk to her at any length. Plus...part of me wants to blurt out "you don't know my favorite color because you'll just judge me for it!"
Arms length and boundaries have been a lifesaver...but it is still hard to see her that way, and the pull to fix things for her (from childhood) is still loud and strong. It's just so nice being able to see it and say "nope, not my $h!t".
Shes in complete "life sucks" mode since we lost my dad 2 years ago. I cannot imagine losing a spouse after 40 years of marriage, however I don't remember her really being happy EVER.
Now shes spiraling on "I don't know you kids, I don't even know your favorite color!" I'm sure she feels that way to an extent...we don't keep in touch as much as we probably should because it sucks so much out of us to talk to her at any length. Plus...part of me wants to blurt out "you don't know my favorite color because you'll just judge me for it!"
Arms length and boundaries have been a lifesaver...but it is still hard to see her that way, and the pull to fix things for her (from childhood) is still loud and strong. It's just so nice being able to see it and say "nope, not my $h!t".
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A lot of people heal in a way that allows them to carry their wounds forward in a "new" way - over their lifetimes they have become INVESTED in this being part of their self-identity & the idea of living life without that lens is truly unimaginable. They can also get so lost in the opposite direction - diving so deeply into therapy that it becomes an ongoing habit that replaces the original wound & festers in a new way.
I have been thinking about this a fair bit lately. Being ill for a few months now I've had little time to be busy. Being busy is what I do best normally. I think I did the first part of this festering for a long time. It was only having the time to think that made me see I had still been people pleasing, still walking on eggshells around people and still feeling"victimised" in my present life with no alcoholics in it. I'd basically built up another life that largely depending on my flogging my guts out for people who do not deserve my time in one of the most toxic environments I've ever been in. Then self isolating to avoid having to deal with saying no to them. Talk about a martyr. My son would come in from the place I used to volunteer all my time ( he's not happy going there anymore now either) and I'd start to feel anxiety wondering if he say they had been mean about me not being there or angry. I realised this was ridiculous. Why did I care what they thought? I was an unpaid lackey. Why had they the same hold over me as exah had? Why did I feel as stuck? It took a bit of unravelling but I realised I do not have to live for others anymore. I can do what makes me happy. I am not a victim and I have choices. It's my own fault if I allow people to use me. My son said tonight he has seen a difference in me since I've been ill...you seem really happy mom he said. I am happy. I am feeling better and looking forward to doing things I will enjoy. No more being stuck. No more excuses to live a half life.
I have been thinking about this a fair bit lately. Being ill for a few months now I've had little time to be busy. Being busy is what I do best normally. I think I did the first part of this festering for a long time. It was only having the time to think that made me see I had still been people pleasing, still walking on eggshells around people and still feeling"victimised" in my present life with no alcoholics in it. I'd basically built up another life that largely depending on my flogging my guts out for people who do not deserve my time in one of the most toxic environments I've ever been in. Then self isolating to avoid having to deal with saying no to them. Talk about a martyr. My son would come in from the place I used to volunteer all my time ( he's not happy going there anymore now either) and I'd start to feel anxiety wondering if he say they had been mean about me not being there or angry. I realised this was ridiculous. Why did I care what they thought? I was an unpaid lackey. Why had they the same hold over me as exah had? Why did I feel as stuck? It took a bit of unravelling but I realised I do not have to live for others anymore. I can do what makes me happy. I am not a victim and I have choices. It's my own fault if I allow people to use me. My son said tonight he has seen a difference in me since I've been ill...you seem really happy mom he said. I am happy. I am feeling better and looking forward to doing things I will enjoy. No more being stuck. No more excuses to live a half life.
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I am slowly recovering. I am not the person I was. The person who was on constant alert as to what he was doing, where he was going, where he might be drinking, how much he was drinking etc.
Now I do have little set backs, just the other day he wasn't answering his phone, my mind started to wander to 'what if he is our drinking again' but I stopped it, sent him a text to ask him to return my call and went on about what I was doing. I refuse to get sucked in, I want to be free, completely free.
I don't want the racing heart, the confusion, the helplessness.
We are communicating, go for coffee, dinner etc but I am doing ME now
I am doing me for now.
Now I do have little set backs, just the other day he wasn't answering his phone, my mind started to wander to 'what if he is our drinking again' but I stopped it, sent him a text to ask him to return my call and went on about what I was doing. I refuse to get sucked in, I want to be free, completely free.
I don't want the racing heart, the confusion, the helplessness.
We are communicating, go for coffee, dinner etc but I am doing ME now
I am doing me for now.
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Firesprite-
I have been thinking about this post and the label post a lot recently. Since this one is still active I thought I would respond here.
Though it was so hard to step into the labels that I had initially in my recovery I recently realized how hard it is to let go of some of those comfortable and known labels.
I had a person I know and trust comment that I was no longer "in" a dysfunctional pattern with one of my "-isms" and it has been a wonderful, scary, liberating, messy, beautiful moment with lots of feelings coming up from it.
The fact that she mentioned it so casually has also been something to work through.
It is amazing though when you "let go," of one part so many other things can be let go of also. I suspect it will help to make room for other things.
I have been thinking about this post and the label post a lot recently. Since this one is still active I thought I would respond here.
Though it was so hard to step into the labels that I had initially in my recovery I recently realized how hard it is to let go of some of those comfortable and known labels.
I had a person I know and trust comment that I was no longer "in" a dysfunctional pattern with one of my "-isms" and it has been a wonderful, scary, liberating, messy, beautiful moment with lots of feelings coming up from it.
The fact that she mentioned it so casually has also been something to work through.
It is amazing though when you "let go," of one part so many other things can be let go of also. I suspect it will help to make room for other things.
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I generally don't care much for labels, and yes I've known quite a few people who live to be the victim - the perpetual victim. Unfortunately it seemed as though the herapy they were using helped them codify this.
After thinking about this for awhile, I think it depends upon what one might expect to get from either of those labels. You can be a victim and a survivor at the same time. I also believe it's about where the focus is.
After thinking about this for awhile, I think it depends upon what one might expect to get from either of those labels. You can be a victim and a survivor at the same time. I also believe it's about where the focus is.
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A survivor or a victim? I think I know the difference.
I'd have to say I'm both. If you meet me I'm a pretty happy person. I won't tell you my history, and I do lots of things for myself, like go to school. Walk my dogs, joint dance groups, running group, music groups and hiking groups. I have to schedule self care, but that's just me, a lot of people like that.
I'm a helping person and a peacemaker. I like to help others even when I'm empty, and I withdraw from conflict to the point where I am not assertive at all. I think it has to do with my personality type with a bit of influence from my life experience. Im working on these things. Practicing.
I'm a survivor in that I've been through a lot and I've dealt with most of it through councelling, psychology classes, and learning about myself and what makes me tick: 20 years with abuse, 30 years with alcoholism. I've accomplished my personal goals and dreams, I've got great kids, I'm working on my masters now. I don't blame myself, especially the stuff I went through as a kid, and I don't feel sorry for myself. I consider myself pretty lucky.
On the other hand I'm a victim at times like now. When there is change. the unknown. I let sadness overtake me and I feel a heavy cloud weighing me down much of the time. I'm a victim of my thoughts, and I feel sorry for myself at times for outside circumstances. Perhaps some sadness about my relationship with my AH will always cycle through my life. What I do know for sure is that it's worse in those times when I have stopped scheduling self care for a while, have not accepted help from people who can support me, and when I'm not practicing mindfulness or meditating.
I know what to do, and I know I'll learn more about what to do from alanon. If I fake it 'til I make it maybe I'll be more of a survivor.
I'd have to say I'm both. If you meet me I'm a pretty happy person. I won't tell you my history, and I do lots of things for myself, like go to school. Walk my dogs, joint dance groups, running group, music groups and hiking groups. I have to schedule self care, but that's just me, a lot of people like that.
I'm a helping person and a peacemaker. I like to help others even when I'm empty, and I withdraw from conflict to the point where I am not assertive at all. I think it has to do with my personality type with a bit of influence from my life experience. Im working on these things. Practicing.
I'm a survivor in that I've been through a lot and I've dealt with most of it through councelling, psychology classes, and learning about myself and what makes me tick: 20 years with abuse, 30 years with alcoholism. I've accomplished my personal goals and dreams, I've got great kids, I'm working on my masters now. I don't blame myself, especially the stuff I went through as a kid, and I don't feel sorry for myself. I consider myself pretty lucky.
On the other hand I'm a victim at times like now. When there is change. the unknown. I let sadness overtake me and I feel a heavy cloud weighing me down much of the time. I'm a victim of my thoughts, and I feel sorry for myself at times for outside circumstances. Perhaps some sadness about my relationship with my AH will always cycle through my life. What I do know for sure is that it's worse in those times when I have stopped scheduling self care for a while, have not accepted help from people who can support me, and when I'm not practicing mindfulness or meditating.
I know what to do, and I know I'll learn more about what to do from alanon. If I fake it 'til I make it maybe I'll be more of a survivor.
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Labels don't bother me - they are generally temporary, transient, fluid & changing. I like the freedom I feel when I can properly identify something because that leads to acceptance & legit healing/solutions to the issue. I can't change a label I refuse to acknowledge - that's denial.
I can have a lot of different labels at the same time - don't we anyway? I'm a mother, sister, daughter, wife, employee but none of these labels cause people discomfort do they? Why is it only labels that we perceive as negative that bother us? Anyone have an issue embracing themselves as a PhD?
I do like thinking of them more like descriptors, especially "survivor"...you can be a survivor of multiple things throughout your life without always carrying the title as though it was still happening now.
I am a survivor of.... (illness/disease)
I am a survivor of..... (abuse)
I am a survivor of..... etc
The difference with the word Victim is that the very definition of victim represents a negative, disadvantaged & often abused role.... we are all victims in life in one sense or another, to different degrees. But do we seek to STAY there, in that place? Or do we reach for a higher level, trying & trying & trying despite setbacks?
It has a lot to do with our general mindset & ability to shift perspectives, IMO:
https://www.ted.com/talks/julia_gale...f_you_re_wrong
I can have a lot of different labels at the same time - don't we anyway? I'm a mother, sister, daughter, wife, employee but none of these labels cause people discomfort do they? Why is it only labels that we perceive as negative that bother us? Anyone have an issue embracing themselves as a PhD?
I do like thinking of them more like descriptors, especially "survivor"...you can be a survivor of multiple things throughout your life without always carrying the title as though it was still happening now.
I am a survivor of.... (illness/disease)
I am a survivor of..... (abuse)
I am a survivor of..... etc
The difference with the word Victim is that the very definition of victim represents a negative, disadvantaged & often abused role.... we are all victims in life in one sense or another, to different degrees. But do we seek to STAY there, in that place? Or do we reach for a higher level, trying & trying & trying despite setbacks?
It has a lot to do with our general mindset & ability to shift perspectives, IMO:
https://www.ted.com/talks/julia_gale...f_you_re_wrong
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