He can't figure out why I'm so hurt
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Generalizations, we have the right to find spouses that meet our needs. There are men out there. To say less is to settle. I have killed spider's to which my DS12 is afraid of. I have emptied mouse traps and have touched snakes.
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Originally Posted by hearthealth 
Generalizations, I have killed spider's to which my DS12 is afraid of. I have emptied mouse traps and have touched snakes.
But "generalities" ARE generalities because they are true - in the main. Of course, there's individual variation.
Men range the gamut from Jesse Ventura to Alan Alda -- but the Alan Aldas of the male world tend toward the outlier position.
But, I can tell you that just about every year I go on a golf outing with about 24 guys - some from the East Coast, some from the West Coast, and some from the Midwest.
99.9999% of the conversation - for the ENTIRE 4 DAY WEEKEND - is about ribbing each other either about our jobs or, more likely, our golf games (or lack thereof). There's a great deal of competitiveness (who is/is not in contention for the "prize" - about $200 and a trophy and bragging rights). There's in depth conversation about many things -- just nothing really and truly personal.
00.00001% of the conversation would be "Hey Mike, how's the family?" To which you MIGHT get "fine" and a run down of which child is at what school. End of that conversation.
When I'd get home from these trips my AW wife would ask me about so-and-so's wife I have to say "ya know, it really didn't come up."
Because it didn't.
And, get this, most men (not all, but most) ENJOY the type of golf weekend I described. It's RELAXING. It's ENJOYABLE.
And THAT confuses the heck out of her (and many other women) because if 24 women spent four days 12 hours a day in each other's company an in-depth conversation about husbands, family's and kids WOULD be the main topic of conversation.
That's just the way it is.
MCESaint
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I'll be the first to admit that I have difficulty understanding the opposite sex at times. I still make the effort. I guess the closest I can come it to try to put myself in her shoes. Weather or not I grasp the depth and scope of what she may be thinking or feeling may very well be beyond me. Idk. But my best is all one can do.
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Yes, EXACTLY, to everything you said!
Originally Posted by Givenup2018
In answer to ThomPom
Yes the OP's RAH needs more time but you have to have some empathy for the spouse of an A.
She has spent her life in perpetual expectation and continual letdown.
She has had to carry the family, the responsibilities, yet he gets to be the one treated with kid gloves, the one who is helped in AA , has a sponser, gets out of duties at home because he has to attend meetings all because of something he has done. There doesn't seem to be much justice in such a scenario so forgive me for being a little harsh here.
I would expect when he gets to make amends then he would do more self-reflection and make proper amends to all he has hurt including her. That will involve really digging deep. I suspect many RAH never get to that stage and it would be in the best interests of the OP not to live in perpetual expectation.
As the big book says "Whatever our ideal turns out to be, we must be willing
to grow toward it. We must be willing to make amends where we have done harm, provided that we do not bring about still more harm in so doing."
So yes the OP is jaded, probably mightily resentful and using this platform as a way to vent, which for many of us is very therapeutic. I guess many of us do not know the struggles of an A likewise you may not know the struggles of the OP. However, her RAH ought to find out, if he is to achieve any sort of wholeness or help in restoring the relationship. The OP is tired and maybe too weary to deal with the now RAH who may or may not stay sober, it is something many of us have to deal with. Sometimes after we get off the crazy train when the A decides to sober up, we have time to think and reflect as we are no longer firefighting and realise we are better off to just walk away.
As for the OP, yes, she will have to work on her self whether she stays in the marriage or not due to the damage of having an A spouse.
Yes the OP's RAH needs more time but you have to have some empathy for the spouse of an A.
She has spent her life in perpetual expectation and continual letdown.
She has had to carry the family, the responsibilities, yet he gets to be the one treated with kid gloves, the one who is helped in AA , has a sponser, gets out of duties at home because he has to attend meetings all because of something he has done. There doesn't seem to be much justice in such a scenario so forgive me for being a little harsh here.
I would expect when he gets to make amends then he would do more self-reflection and make proper amends to all he has hurt including her. That will involve really digging deep. I suspect many RAH never get to that stage and it would be in the best interests of the OP not to live in perpetual expectation.
As the big book says "Whatever our ideal turns out to be, we must be willing
to grow toward it. We must be willing to make amends where we have done harm, provided that we do not bring about still more harm in so doing."
So yes the OP is jaded, probably mightily resentful and using this platform as a way to vent, which for many of us is very therapeutic. I guess many of us do not know the struggles of an A likewise you may not know the struggles of the OP. However, her RAH ought to find out, if he is to achieve any sort of wholeness or help in restoring the relationship. The OP is tired and maybe too weary to deal with the now RAH who may or may not stay sober, it is something many of us have to deal with. Sometimes after we get off the crazy train when the A decides to sober up, we have time to think and reflect as we are no longer firefighting and realise we are better off to just walk away.
As for the OP, yes, she will have to work on her self whether she stays in the marriage or not due to the damage of having an A spouse.
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Originally Posted by SparkleKitty
Or, generalities are generalities because we keep perpetuating false gender roles and refusing to see past our own comfort zone.
The group I golf with again hail from different parts of the country. That group is largely professional: tax accountants, lawyers, financial industry types.
The same type of weekend - and similar discussions - happen when I've gone hunting with AW's cousins who are farmers, carpenters, heavy equipment operators.
We need to stop treating the other gender as "broken" or somehow incomplete just because they are different from one another.
MCESaint
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Originally Posted by MCESaint
Or maybe we should just accept that men and woman are, in fact, different.
The group I golf with again hail from different parts of the country. That group is largely professional: tax accountants, lawyers, financial industry types.
The same type of weekend - and similar discussions - happen when I've gone hunting with AW's cousins who are farmers, carpenters, heavy equipment operators.
We need to stop treating the other gender as "broken" or somehow incomplete just because they are different from one another.
MCESaint
The group I golf with again hail from different parts of the country. That group is largely professional: tax accountants, lawyers, financial industry types.
The same type of weekend - and similar discussions - happen when I've gone hunting with AW's cousins who are farmers, carpenters, heavy equipment operators.
We need to stop treating the other gender as "broken" or somehow incomplete just because they are different from one another.
MCESaint
And I further reject the idea that it's all biology. Of course men and women are different but we are all human. We live in a society that teaches us that "boys don't cry," and that feelings are to be stuffed or ignored until they go away lest they make other people uncomfortable. That's what my alcoholic mother was taught, and it's why she spent fifty years trying to drink those uncomfortable feelings away. That's what she taught me and my siblings and we all went through extensive therapy to unlearn it and be intentional, open, loving people to ourselves and others. My brother had the hardest time because the expectations were different for him. He'd learned that it was "un-masculine" to be sensitive or to admit to feeling hurt. I think that's a cycle that can, and needs to, be broken.
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Originally Posted by Givenup2018
In answer to ThomPom
Yes the OP's RAH needs more time but you have to have some empathy for the spouse of an A.
She has spent her life in perpetual expectation and continual letdown.
She has had to carry the family, the responsibilities, yet he gets to be the one treated with kid gloves, the one who is helped in AA , has a sponser, gets out of duties at home because he has to attend meetings all because of something he has done. There doesn't seem to be much justice in such a scenario so forgive me for being a little harsh here.
Yes the OP's RAH needs more time but you have to have some empathy for the spouse of an A.
She has spent her life in perpetual expectation and continual letdown.
She has had to carry the family, the responsibilities, yet he gets to be the one treated with kid gloves, the one who is helped in AA , has a sponser, gets out of duties at home because he has to attend meetings all because of something he has done. There doesn't seem to be much justice in such a scenario so forgive me for being a little harsh here.
Look, I don't want to deal with addiction. And I don't want to be let down. So I split up with my addicted partner. And now I choose not to date someone who displays even a hint of addiction. It wasn't easy: it required a lot of inner recovery work on my part. And in the end, it really had nothing to do with my ex, my issues were really all about my issues. He has his own, and they certainly pre-date my time in his life. So whether he chooses to deal with them is his business.
You can't change other people. If you are unhappy with who they are and how they live their lives, maybe the best course of action is to look at reality, to release them and go find someone who you can be happy with.
To do otherwise, to fixate on them, to obsess yourself with trying to change them, to deny reality. It is codependent. It is a trap in which you can waste your life.
I don't see this as a gender thing. There are men who fixate on trying to control and / or change their partners too. It takes away from happiness, it is another type of addiction, and it is a complete waste of time. You can threaten (and those threats can be emotional as well as physical), you can take away their privileges (sex / money), but in the end, you can cannot control another adult. They will be who they are.
Originally Posted by Givenup2018
So yes the OP is jaded, probably mightily resentful and using this platform as a way to vent, which for many of us is very therapeutic. I guess many of us do not know the struggles of an A likewise you may not know the struggles of the OP. However, her RAH ought to find out, if he is to achieve any sort of wholeness or help in restoring the relationship. The OP is tired and maybe too weary to deal with the now RAH who may or may not stay sober, it is something many of us have to deal with. Sometimes after we get off the crazy train when the A decides to sober up, we have time to think and reflect as we are no longer firefighting and realise we are better off to just walk away.
As for the OP, yes, she will have to work on her self whether she stays in the marriage or not due to the damage of having an A spouse.
As for the OP, yes, she will have to work on her self whether she stays in the marriage or not due to the damage of having an A spouse.
Sorry, but I think way too many people of both genders, in their desperation to conform to expectations of upbringing / parents / friends / society, pick a poor candidate for partnership / marriage, and then set their minds to changing that person, with a ton of suffering for both partners and for the children. It's a never-ending cycle.
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Originally Posted by SparkleKitty
In an effort to bring this back to the OP, I reject the implication outright that Wamama's husband should be absolved of ever understanding what she has been through in their marriage because men are from Mars and women are from Venus.
And I further reject the idea that it's all biology. Of course men and women are different but we are all human. We live in a society that teaches us that "boys don't cry," and that feelings are to be stuffed or ignored until they go away lest they make other people uncomfortable. That's what my alcoholic mother was taught, and it's why she spent fifty years trying to drink those uncomfortable feelings away. That's what she taught me and my siblings and we all went through extensive therapy to unlearn it and be intentional, open, loving people to ourselves and others. My brother had the hardest time because the expectations were different for him. He'd learned that it was "un-masculine" to be sensitive or to admit to feeling hurt. I think that's a cycle that can, and needs to, be broken.
And I further reject the idea that it's all biology. Of course men and women are different but we are all human. We live in a society that teaches us that "boys don't cry," and that feelings are to be stuffed or ignored until they go away lest they make other people uncomfortable. That's what my alcoholic mother was taught, and it's why she spent fifty years trying to drink those uncomfortable feelings away. That's what she taught me and my siblings and we all went through extensive therapy to unlearn it and be intentional, open, loving people to ourselves and others. My brother had the hardest time because the expectations were different for him. He'd learned that it was "un-masculine" to be sensitive or to admit to feeling hurt. I think that's a cycle that can, and needs to, be broken.
You know how I know? I'm watching people raise boys differently & they are developing into different kinds of men. Every woman I know who is Awake & has a male son has asked the same question - how do I raise him to be better than what this society has modeled for him to date? How do I break this cycle? We know better so we DO better.
Perpetuating something that is broken & telling people to find a way to make it more palatable is absurd when it comes to basic humanity. The genders will never be identical, but I completely reject the notion that men are incapable & never desiring a stronger emotional connection in life. Nope.
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Join Date: Jan 2018
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I appreciate everyones point of view, I learned an amazing amount about myself. Things I had no idea I needed to change to be happy. Sadly, this post I made is pretty much worthless. I wasn't clear, so all of the advice I'm getting is the opposite of what I meant. HE is bugging me to explain this to him. I'm actually proud of myself for 1- finally recognizing that he's still too confused to understand many things, so I no longer pressure him and 2- I set a boundary for myself refusing to explain anymore when he asks me. Again, I'm NOT on him to make him understand, he is the one who keeps asking me to explain it to him. I'm still proud of the progress I've made. 😁
Originally Posted by Needabreak
Sorry, but if one chooses to spend even a short period of one's adult life in perpetual expectation and continual letdown, that's on that person, not the addict.
Look, I don't want to deal with addiction. And I don't want to be let down. So I split up with my addicted partner. And now I choose not to date someone who displays even a hint of addiction. It wasn't easy: it required a lot of inner recovery work on my part. And in the end, it really had nothing to do with my ex, my issues were really all about my issues. He has his own, and they certainly pre-date my time in his life. So whether he chooses to deal with them is his business.
You can't change other people. If you are unhappy with who they are and how they live their lives, maybe the best course of action is to look at reality, to release them and go find someone who you can be happy with.
To do otherwise, to fixate on them, to obsess yourself with trying to change them, to deny reality. It is codependent. It is a trap in which you can waste your life.
I don't see this as a gender thing. There are men who fixate on trying to control and / or change their partners too. It takes away from happiness, it is another type of addiction, and it is a complete waste of time. You can threaten (and those threats can be emotional as well as physical), you can take away their privileges (sex / money), but in the end, you can cannot control another adult. They will be who they are.
Yes, and venting is fine, but in the end, how much time she wastes and how much suffering she puts herself through is on her: he is who he is, and he has shown that he is not interested in changing.
Sorry, but I think way too many people of both genders, in their desperation to conform to expectations of upbringing / parents / friends / society, pick a poor candidate for partnership / marriage, and then set their minds to changing that person, with a ton of suffering for both partners and for the children. It's a never-ending cycle.
Look, I don't want to deal with addiction. And I don't want to be let down. So I split up with my addicted partner. And now I choose not to date someone who displays even a hint of addiction. It wasn't easy: it required a lot of inner recovery work on my part. And in the end, it really had nothing to do with my ex, my issues were really all about my issues. He has his own, and they certainly pre-date my time in his life. So whether he chooses to deal with them is his business.
You can't change other people. If you are unhappy with who they are and how they live their lives, maybe the best course of action is to look at reality, to release them and go find someone who you can be happy with.
To do otherwise, to fixate on them, to obsess yourself with trying to change them, to deny reality. It is codependent. It is a trap in which you can waste your life.
I don't see this as a gender thing. There are men who fixate on trying to control and / or change their partners too. It takes away from happiness, it is another type of addiction, and it is a complete waste of time. You can threaten (and those threats can be emotional as well as physical), you can take away their privileges (sex / money), but in the end, you can cannot control another adult. They will be who they are.
Yes, and venting is fine, but in the end, how much time she wastes and how much suffering she puts herself through is on her: he is who he is, and he has shown that he is not interested in changing.
Sorry, but I think way too many people of both genders, in their desperation to conform to expectations of upbringing / parents / friends / society, pick a poor candidate for partnership / marriage, and then set their minds to changing that person, with a ton of suffering for both partners and for the children. It's a never-ending cycle.
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
Exactly. SOCIETY has created this construct between the genders, it's not our natural The genders will never be identical, but I completely reject the notion that men are incapable & never desiring a stronger emotional connection in life. Nope.
This was the hardest thing to reprogram in myself when I was dealing with an addicted partner. My mother was a codie and a people-pleaser, and so was her mother. Both spent their adult lives in miserable marriages, with tremendous anger and resentment toward their husbands. And they were my role models.
A good part of my recovery has been spent examining this truth and how it affects my own habitual patterns of thinking.
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Absolutely - change has been needed for both genders for a long time..... no one is suggesting that girls should remain kept princesses & THAT stereotype be accepted & perpetuated, are they?
Of course not - it's ridiculous & long past time we gave our daughters more credit.
Of course not - it's ridiculous & long past time we gave our daughters more credit.
)
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Originally Posted by Needabreak
No, but we do see this thought process over and over again on these boards where a woman has an alcoholic wife, insists that she is miserable because of him and that he needs to change so that she can be happy.
It plays out the other way around sometimes, where the man is the one who is stuck. But I think it is more often the woman, because it is the way so many of us are brought up.
I used to think this way too. And I didn't find recovery until I overcame that inner programming that was passed down to me, and started looking at my own thought processes and looking honestly at how I was co-creating my relationship and my own misery.
It plays out the other way around sometimes, where the man is the one who is stuck. But I think it is more often the woman, because it is the way so many of us are brought up.
I used to think this way too. And I didn't find recovery until I overcame that inner programming that was passed down to me, and started looking at my own thought processes and looking honestly at how I was co-creating my relationship and my own misery.
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Originally Posted by Needabreak
No, but we do see this thought process over and over again on these boards where a woman has an alcoholic wife, insists that she is miserable because of him and that he needs to change so that she can be happy.
It plays out the other way around sometimes, where the man is the one who is stuck. But I think it is more often the woman, because it is the way so many of us are brought up.
I used to think this way too. And I didn't find recovery until I overcame that inner programming that was passed down to me, and started looking at my own thought processes and looking honestly at how I was co-creating my relationship and my own misery.
It plays out the other way around sometimes, where the man is the one who is stuck. But I think it is more often the woman, because it is the way so many of us are brought up.
I used to think this way too. And I didn't find recovery until I overcame that inner programming that was passed down to me, and started looking at my own thought processes and looking honestly at how I was co-creating my relationship and my own misery.
A lot of it IS generational & those are the people least likely to embrace change & I get that too. I lost a severely codependent client earlier this month because she refused to embrace necessary changes at her advanced age & literally preferred to die rather than face it. She was gone in a matter of days once she made that decision - from relatively healthy despite her age into a fast moving spiral that ended her life.
For me, it's a matter of standing up against what I was raised with while creating new patterns for my own child. It's like standing between 2 boulders - trying to stop one from continuing to gain momentum as it rolls downhill, while rolling & pushing on the other boulder trying to help it GAIN momentum on a completely new path. I get bruised on both sides but I'm choosing that mindfully, volunteering to be the one to recognize the need for change & to bear the brunt of the pain from both sides. I won't get it all done, but I'll lay a pretty good foundation.
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
I continue to agree - and we do see that dynamic show up here at SR a lot, especially on this side of the forum. But we don't encourage her to stay stuck in that thought process or lifestyle; we don't continue to perpetuate the dysfunction.
A lot of it IS generational & those are the people least likely to embrace change & I get that too. I lost a severely codependent client earlier this month because she refused to embrace necessary changes at her advanced age & literally preferred to die than face it. She was gone in a matter of days once she made that decision - from relatively healthy despite her age into a fast moving spiral that ended her life.
For me, it's a matter of standing up against what I was raised with while creating new patterns for my own child. It's like standing between 2 boulders - trying to stop one from continuing to gain momentum as it rolls downhill, while rolling & pushing on the other boulder trying to help it GAIN momentum on a completely new path. I get bruised on both sides but I'm choosing that mindfully, volunteering to be the one to recognize the need for change & to bear the brunt of the pain from both sides. I won't get it all done, but I'll lay a pretty good foundation.
A lot of it IS generational & those are the people least likely to embrace change & I get that too. I lost a severely codependent client earlier this month because she refused to embrace necessary changes at her advanced age & literally preferred to die than face it. She was gone in a matter of days once she made that decision - from relatively healthy despite her age into a fast moving spiral that ended her life.
For me, it's a matter of standing up against what I was raised with while creating new patterns for my own child. It's like standing between 2 boulders - trying to stop one from continuing to gain momentum as it rolls downhill, while rolling & pushing on the other boulder trying to help it GAIN momentum on a completely new path. I get bruised on both sides but I'm choosing that mindfully, volunteering to be the one to recognize the need for change & to bear the brunt of the pain from both sides. I won't get it all done, but I'll lay a pretty good foundation.
But it is necessary. We live in a very unusual time, with a lot of freedom and the knowledge of the internet all around us. It is incredible what you can find if you go on Youtube and do a search for overcoming codependence. Our mothers and grandmothers kind of did have to suck it up; they never had these resources. Hell, our great grandmothers didn't even have the right to vote.
The world changes slowly, both inside and outside. It is kind of like pushing a boulder, Firesprite. And I like what you said about mindfulness. I find that meditation and mindfulness, and continually reminding myself to try to see things accurately, rather than seeing what I want to see (getting caught up in my own projections), are the biggest help to me.
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Originally Posted by Needabreak
It is tough. Not only logistically (we are often the ones, as Clover said, who stay home to take care of the kids and whose skills atrophy), but also because it is really tough to go up against what we were brought up with, and risk the disapproval of elders who we look up to. It took a long time for my mother to come around to supporting me in breaking things off with my ex: in fact, it was my family that gave me the most grief.
But it is necessary. We live in a very unusual time, with a lot of freedom and the knowledge of the internet all around us. It is incredible what you can find if you go on Youtube and do a search for overcoming codependence. Our mothers and grandmothers kind of did have to suck it up; they never had these resources. Hell, our great grandmothers didn't even have the right to vote.
The world changes slowly, both inside and outside. It is kind of like pushing a boulder. I like what you said about mindfulness, Firesprite. I find that meditation and mindfulness, and continually reminding myself to try to see things accurately, rather than seeing what I want to see (getting caught up in my own projections), are the biggest help to me.
But it is necessary. We live in a very unusual time, with a lot of freedom and the knowledge of the internet all around us. It is incredible what you can find if you go on Youtube and do a search for overcoming codependence. Our mothers and grandmothers kind of did have to suck it up; they never had these resources. Hell, our great grandmothers didn't even have the right to vote.
The world changes slowly, both inside and outside. It is kind of like pushing a boulder. I like what you said about mindfulness, Firesprite. I find that meditation and mindfulness, and continually reminding myself to try to see things accurately, rather than seeing what I want to see (getting caught up in my own projections), are the biggest help to me.
Really well said!I have taken my daughter to the polls to vote with me in every single election since she was born & I still. cry. every. time. thinking about how recent this small measure of equality really IS.... how much the world has changed specifically for women since my own grandmother was born. How far we still have to go. I talk to her about how when she votes, she'll be standing on the shoulders of all the women who came before her & literally fought for that right & how "small" stuff like this is not so small at all.
We are living in a very unique time not just with advancements in technology & information but emotionally/empathetically, IMO. People are waking up. The world is changing, one tiny baby step at a time.
Sorry for the hijack Wamama....
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Originally Posted by Clover71
For me at least, the alcohol changed him. I didn't see it coming, nor did I ask for it. What we planned and what are dreams were are not coming to fruition mainly because of the alcohol.
What I've since realized is that people "unfold." Who they present themselves to be when you meet them and then in the first year or two of a relationship is not necessarily who they will be five years later. This is why it's so important to a) learn a little bit about psychology, addition, codependence, and especially attachment theory (google it, it is fascinating); and b) make sure that, no matter what happens, you can get by on your own. Always have interests outside of the relationship, and always try to work, even if it is a once a week part time job, or a gig from home, or even some volunteer service.
Being entirely dependent on a man is a role that too many of us were raised for, and it's not a good place to be if they turn out to be poor providers. And this isn't just a modern thing. My great grandmother had to bring three kids up on her own. Her alcoholic husband died in the gutter -- in 1915. She had to take a job as an assistant in a jewelry store to feed her kids, at a time when very few women worked.
Addiction and women having to cope with it is not something new......
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
I continue to agree - and we do see that dynamic show up here at SR a lot, especially on this side of the forum. But we don't encourage her to stay stuck in that thought process or lifestyle; we don't continue to perpetuate the dysfunction.
A lot of it IS generational & those are the people least likely to embrace change & I get that too. I lost a severely codependent client earlier this month because she refused to embrace necessary changes at her advanced age & literally preferred to die rather than face it. She was gone in a matter of days once she made that decision - from relatively healthy despite her age into a fast moving spiral that ended her life.
For me, it's a matter of standing up against what I was raised with while creating new patterns for my own child. It's like standing between 2 boulders - trying to stop one from continuing to gain momentum as it rolls downhill, while rolling & pushing on the other boulder trying to help it GAIN momentum on a completely new path. I get bruised on both sides but I'm choosing that mindfully, volunteering to be the one to recognize the need for change & to bear the brunt of the pain from both sides. I won't get it all done, but I'll lay a pretty good foundation.
A lot of it IS generational & those are the people least likely to embrace change & I get that too. I lost a severely codependent client earlier this month because she refused to embrace necessary changes at her advanced age & literally preferred to die rather than face it. She was gone in a matter of days once she made that decision - from relatively healthy despite her age into a fast moving spiral that ended her life.
For me, it's a matter of standing up against what I was raised with while creating new patterns for my own child. It's like standing between 2 boulders - trying to stop one from continuing to gain momentum as it rolls downhill, while rolling & pushing on the other boulder trying to help it GAIN momentum on a completely new path. I get bruised on both sides but I'm choosing that mindfully, volunteering to be the one to recognize the need for change & to bear the brunt of the pain from both sides. I won't get it all done, but I'll lay a pretty good foundation.
I remember a long time ago when the police were called to my home many times, they would talk to my parents and "make" them make up. It was gross, at least to me now. It didn't really sit well with me then. I guess my point is, for me, I don't care much when the pendulum swings too far to the point where it is seen that there are no differences at all between men and women
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Originally Posted by SparkleKitty
In an effort to bring this back to the OP, I reject the implication outright that Wamama's husband should be absolved of ever understanding what she has been through in their marriage because men are from Mars and women are from Venus.
And I further reject the idea that it's all biology. Of course men and women are different but we are all human. We live in a society that teaches us that "boys don't cry," and that feelings are to be stuffed or ignored until they go away lest they make other people uncomfortable. That's what my alcoholic mother was taught, and it's why she spent fifty years trying to drink those uncomfortable feelings away. That's what she taught me and my siblings and we all went through extensive therapy to unlearn it and be intentional, open, loving people to ourselves and others. My brother had the hardest time because the expectations were different for him. He'd learned that it was "un-masculine" to be sensitive or to admit to feeling hurt. I think that's a cycle that can, and needs to, be broken.
And I further reject the idea that it's all biology. Of course men and women are different but we are all human. We live in a society that teaches us that "boys don't cry," and that feelings are to be stuffed or ignored until they go away lest they make other people uncomfortable. That's what my alcoholic mother was taught, and it's why she spent fifty years trying to drink those uncomfortable feelings away. That's what she taught me and my siblings and we all went through extensive therapy to unlearn it and be intentional, open, loving people to ourselves and others. My brother had the hardest time because the expectations were different for him. He'd learned that it was "un-masculine" to be sensitive or to admit to feeling hurt. I think that's a cycle that can, and needs to, be broken.
By the way, I find it interesting that you phrase the issue as "what she has been through." If I understand recovery properly (and I concede I may not) - this isn't something that *happened* to her . . . it's something she CHOSE and CHOOSES to be in.
For my part, I reject outright the implication that a man is "broken" or somehow incomplete unless (i) he can fully grasp what his wife's feelings are; or (ii) that he must fulfill every emotional need she has; or (iii) his own emotions are as deep and wide as hers are. And I wonder how many WOMAN have attempted to see the world through a man's viewpoint (and, no it ain't all roses and cupcakes).
Further, I reject outright the notion that millions of years of evolution including the impact of testosterone have had on male feelings/thoughts (which, after all, are JUST biochemical reactions occurring in the brain) and can be safely ignored or, worse, just "wished away."
MCESaint
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