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Can I Still Help Him?

Old 03-09-2018, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by aliciagr View Post
Codependents are addicts too. Its not about caring for another person, or even helping another person in a normal, balanced way. Its addiction where a person is willing to give up everything to help someone else, to hide the addiction in the family and pretend things are normal, to cover up the damage in the home and accept it even when lying in bed crying their eyes out. Its losing family, friends, hobbies, bending your principles. values, ethics because you feel its necessary to keep someone else in your life, or because you think your their only hope. Its a loss of self and then your own identity is somehow dependent and linked tightly with what another person does, says, thinks or feels. Codependents also often seem to think they can save a person with an addiction and disregard how people need medical/psychological help to overcome it most of the time. (Im not sure why in 2018 because its not that hard to educate yourself on the brain and how addiction works? )

Sadly, many family members are labeled as codependents just because they are family members.
I agree with you and disagree with some of your points. I will say I don't know that much about codependency, of course after reading a lot I now know more than I did!

I agree that the term is used too widely. Not everyone involved with someone who is addicted is a codependent.

That said, I think codependency has a spectrum. You don't have to fit all the criteria to maybe have some things you can work on that might benefit you. What you have described, I believe, would be at the very high end of that spectrum (possibly a bit right over the top end).

I have to ask. If these two things are both true:

Codependents are addicts too
and
Codependents also often seem to think they can save a person with an addiction and disregard how people need medical/psychological help to overcome it most of the time. (Im not sure why in 2018 because its not that hard to educate yourself on the brain and how addiction works? )
Does that not mean that addicts should be able to pick up the big book, or do intense research on their addiction and how it affects their brain and fix themselves?

If it's true that codependent = addict, it probably isn't quite that simple to overcome that conviction.

nitabug, I don't know how you have approached helping others before and I certainly don't know if you are a codependent or not. I don't know if anyone has mentioned Al-Anon to you yet or not but you might find it helpful in understanding how to proceed. Al-Anon is for friends and families of alcoholics. It's not about the alcoholic, it's about you.
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Old 03-09-2018, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by aliciagr View Post
Haa I still don't really know what codependency is because to be honest people have varying definitions. It basically is a term used by AA programs but what it really boils down to in my opinion is an addiction to another person. Usually someone who is broken/needy in some way. They readily accept the caretaking offered, and can also easily manipulate the emotional codependent into doing more and more for long periods of time.

When a person is addicted to substances, the mind lies and says the need for the drug is necessary like air or water. A person will do almost anything to protect their addiction, to obtain their drug. They are blindly willing to lose relationships, their home, car, savings, career, friends, hobbies, their values and ethics because they are driven to keep repeating the behavior and feel the high.

Codependents are addicts too. Its not about caring for another person, or even helping another person in a normal, balanced way. Its addiction where a person is willing to give up everything to help someone else, to hide the addiction in the family and pretend things are normal, to cover up the damage in the home and accept it even when lying in bed crying their eyes out. Its losing family, friends, hobbies, bending your principles. values, ethics because you feel its necessary to keep someone else in your life, or because you think your their only hope. Its a loss of self and then your own identity is somehow dependent and linked tightly with what another person does, says, thinks or feels. Codependents also often seem to think they can save a person with an addiction and disregard how people need medical/psychological help to overcome it most of the time. (Im not sure why in 2018 because its not that hard to educate yourself on the brain and how addiction works? )

Sadly, many family members are labeled as codependents just because they are family members. And also because a long time back the main concept was that people should step out the lives of the addict so they could hit rock bottom and then find recovery all on their own. In mainstream medicine from all Ive been told its not accepted as the approach to take any longer. While we cant become sickly codependents who surrender our lives for someone else all while thinking our love can save them - we can encourage treatment, help family obtain it, be a support and encouragement - all while continuing to hold firm in our boundaries, live our lives.

I don't see you as a codependent. Do you have a history of seeking out people who are hurt, sick, broken in some way? Needing to take care of them? Giving away too much of yourself and losing yourself?
I also don't see it in you because of the way you called out some of the posts and stood up for yourself. You seem to have a good sense of self, and personal boundaries.

And all in a months time with no experience in addiction! Those of us who didn't grow up in alcoholic homes, or have exposure to addiction.. when something happens we don't know what to do. It takes time to learn about addiction, learn about the behaviors addiction brings.

I remember sitting at home witnessing this awful behavior and thinking surely he is going to pull it together and just stop, He is capable and smart, and this makes no sense. So I waited and well it didn't happen. It took me a few months to seek help. I really just didn't understand. I came to online sites like this one, and then eventually made an appointment with an addiction doctor for therapy. I was so confused and had to reconcile what I saw with "the symptoms" of addiction. That is the one thing most of us here have in common. We've all been witness to the symptoms of addiction -in varying degrees of course.
Here's a useful little write up on co dependency and Melodie Beattie's book is good and there's lots of her discussing this on You Tube

http://www.portagepath.org/shlibbu/Codependency.pdf
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Old 03-10-2018, 12:01 AM
  # 63 (permalink)  
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nitabug.....For me...the definition of the term "CO-Dependency", that has helped me the most, and helped me the most is this one----"Co-Dependency is
less about relationships with other persons than it is about the absence of relationship with the Self" .....

I would like to add the following thought to this discussion of co-dependency.
The actual term was not coined by AA. The term came into being later.
At first, the focus of treatment of alcoholism centered on the alcoholic him/her self...and getting them sober.
Over time...when treatment centers for alcohol/drug treatment became popular...in the 1960's...Researchers in the field of human psychology began to notice the families of alcoholics....and, observed certain patterns and characteristcs that they seemed to have in common. These patterns and characteristics were first known by the term "Co-holic".
Over the decades, since then, the term has evolved to be called "Co-dependent". By now, it has become a household word t hat is commonly used (sometimes correctly and sometimes incorrectly, in my opinion...lol).

This is described in the following link, for anyone else who is interested....

The evolution of of the term Codependence/codependency
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:34 AM
  # 64 (permalink)  
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Thanks Givenup2018, I read the book a year or so ago.


[QUOTE=trailmix;6816657]
I agree that the term is used too widely. Not everyone involved with someone who is addicted is a codependent.

That said, I think codependency has a spectrum. You don't have to fit all the criteria to maybe have some things you can work on that might benefit you. What you have described, I believe, would be at the very high end of that spectrum (possibly a bit right over the top end).


Yes I also think codependency has a spectrum. And I think its good for people to learn about codependency, and be aware of warning signs. And if a person identifies with the behaviors then to take steps to modify behavior and also possibly seek additional professional help. I think like an addiction to substances, you either have to realize you have a problem on your own often by facing negative consequences, or the people who know you personally may see signs and address the issue with you. Just like an addiction to substances there may be denial of the problem, or it may spark something inside that marks the beginning of change. I think recovery for codependency can be riddled with relapsing behaviors, and often the pendulum can swing the other direction to the opposite extreme. And that may or may not be recognized as an issue.

Does that not mean that addicts should be able to pick up the big book, or do intense research on their addiction and how it affects their brain and fix themselves?


What I meant was that often codependents seem to believe they can love their partner into better health and sobriety. Yet if you ask that same person if they can love a cancer patient back to health, or correct a bipolar disorder in another person - they will say no, they need medical help. I cant fix that.
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Old 03-10-2018, 03:42 AM
  # 65 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by nitabug0107 View Post
. I don't know if I have a reasonable answer for that, at least not one that won't be judged harshly..
nita, you havent been judged once here. this site is similar to if you went to a counselor or therapist- you say whats going on and they sy what they see. except here its free, more feedback from different viewpoints, and from people that have been there,done that.

when i was getting sober i heard a CRAPTON of the truth and had the same reaction. when i was workin with that man i mentioned earier i heard a CRAPTON of what i didnt want to hear. when i started working on the codependency i heard a CRAPTON of what i didnt want to hear( a certain someone here has a crowbar they worked real hard to pop my head out of my arse). some of the crap hurt like hell to hear and read, but it was excatly what i needed to hear and read.
i reached out. people responded. the message had weight-no sugar coating. no babying. no coddling. those people responded with care and love- they carried the message the way they know how( i can see today that they have no reason to change how they carry the message just for me) and it saved my ass and my life. it helped give me life.
they could have just walked on by me and let me struggle along. but they didnt-they wanted to help.

even Jesus was quite harsh carrying His message- he grabbed a whip and started chasing people with it at one point.
on the day of pentacost- when peter was preaching and to- the crowd," this Jesus, whom you crucified..."
he said that twice. personally i dont think it came out sounding all lovey dovey( especially when he was trying to help people find Jesus)- i think there was some weight to it. but it was said out of love.

didnt like a lot i heard, got defensive, and FELT i was being judged. although i wasnt. in every instance, i was told what i was told out of love. i cant thank those people enough fo my sobriety, life, my peace,sernity,and happyness.


fear of being judged-low self esteem- was major for a very long time for me. it kept crap bottled inside and no solutions received. by opening up i was able to work on me - find causes and conditions,and the most important part- solutions.
i dont give a rats ass what others think of me today, ESPECIALLY when i reach out for help.

open up and give it time. eventually you may be blessed as i am- sitting here remembering some of the times years ago i got defensive at hearing what i needed to hear and laughin about it.

i was a HUGE pile of jumbled up thinkin,confusion,chaos, and a crapton and a half of a crapton more!


ok, that may be all friggin jumble up and read like the most confused rambling crap( yeahyeahyeah- nothin new for me, eh? )
im not awake yet( yeahyeahyeah-someone prolly sayin,"dam,tom, you must never be awake! ) andno caffeine.
hope sumthin there made sense.
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:18 AM
  # 66 (permalink)  
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I have always been a kind, loving, and caring person. While I don't seek out people with issues or try to solve everyone's problems, my friends and family know exactly who to turn to for help.
This is my first experience with alcoholism in the home. And yes, so much happened so fast that there wasn't a lot of time for advice and education. I've gotten a lot from this forum and it's been very helpful during the episode that's currently in progress.

I'm so glad many of you have taken time to not only recognize my strengths, but also remind me of them. I'm learning that codependency does have many meanings. I haven't given up on myself and I haven't quit working on the person I am and have always wanted to be. I've always been strong willed and even though I love and give of myself, I never sacrifice my own goals. I may have given him a lot in this short period, but I'm proud that I can say I've never missed a day of work, I've never given him money to support his habit, I've never taken him to buy alcohol, I've never stayed home or missed out on something because he needed care. I did spend my birthday in the hospital, but my birthday party with my friends and family was the day before. While he was in the hospital the 2nd time, I had friends from out of town over, we went to an all day festival and spent 3 days having fun without him. Yes, I've worked around my already set schedule to visit him and be with him when he was having sober days... but I've never changed my schedule to accommodate him.
In fact, he helped me come up with the independent study project I'm working on for my MBA and he's very supportive of my goals. It's unfortunate that we've had more drunk days then sober days because when he's sober, he's amazing.
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:21 AM
  # 67 (permalink)  
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Good morning Nitabug,

How are you doing? I hope you are feeling a bit better and less anxious today.
You told us that you were working on an independent project for your MBA, that's awesome. Did you make some fun or self nurturing plan for the week end?
It's good to take the time to breathe and do something nice just for you once in a while, it does not have to be fancy or expensive...could just be going out for a walk by the river or taking a long bath.
Personally, mindfulness meditation really helps relax me.



ps: I read all the thread and I could completely relate to you crying at work (been there done that).

Honeypig, thanks so much for reposting the sticky. I had forgotten about it and it does have a good discussion.
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
Good morning Nitabug,

How are you doing? I hope you are feeling a bit better and less anxious today.
You told us that you were working on an independent project for your MBA, that's awesome. Did you make some fun or self nurturing plan for the week end?
It's good to take the time to breathe and do something nice just for you once in a while, it does not have to be fancy or expensive...could just be going out for a walk by the river or taking a long bath.
Personally, mindfulness meditation really helps relax me.



ps: I read all the thread and I could completely relate to you crying at work (been there done that).

Honeypig, thanks so much for reposting the sticky. I had forgotten about it and it does have a good discussion.
I am less anxious today. Even though no one has heard from him, I've chosen to use today to just reduce some of the burnout. I treated myself to a steak dinner last night. And I slept in til 9:30 this morning. Not sure what the rest of the weekend holds, but I live alone (he is not a live in boyfriend), so I'm use to quiet and entertaining myself.

I do miss him though. Sober him. Of course, part of me would be relieved to hear from drunk him just to know that he's okay.

Florida is a little chilly today, otherwise I might read my book by the pool. Anything to stop worrying.
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:48 AM
  # 69 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by nitabug0107 View Post
I do miss him though. Sober him. Of course, part of me would be relieved to hear from drunk him just to know that he's okay.

Florida is a little chilly today, otherwise I might read my book by the pool. Anything to stop worrying.
Good for you for doing some things you enjoy.

Here is the thing though. While you are out eating steak or out with friends or sitting by the pool reading, you're worrying.

Why are you worrying? Because your boyfriend who is an alcoholic has disappeared. He's depressed, probably has anxiety and you don't know where he is.

Why is that by the way? He will turn up at some point. When he does, please remember that while you are sitting by the pool worrying, he has access to that modern technology called a phone. You will be relieved but keep in mind when he does call, what it's been doing to you.

Just want to add that i'm not trying to put him in a bad light, don't mean to imply it comes from a place of malice. I don't know him and i'm not judging him. It is why people tend to recommend detaching at least a bit though.
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by trailmix View Post
Good for you for doing some things you enjoy.

Here is the thing though. While you are out eating steak or out with friends or sitting by the pool reading, you're worrying.

Why are you worrying? Because your boyfriend who is an alcoholic has disappeared. He's depressed, probably has anxiety and you don't know where he is.

Why is that by the way? He will turn up at some point. When he does, please remember that while you are sitting by the pool worrying, he has access to that modern technology called a phone. You will be relieved but keep in mind when he does call, what it's been doing to you.

Just want to add that i'm not trying to put him in a bad light, don't mean to imply it comes from a place of malice. I don't know him and i'm not judging him. It is why people tend to recommend detaching at least a bit though.
The worry about where he is has come to an end. I recieved a phone call from the police an hour ago. I gave them his parent's information.

I'm not next of kin, so they wouldn't tell me anymore.
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:13 AM
  # 71 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by nitabug0107 View Post
The worry about where he is has come to an end. I recieved a phone call from the police an hour ago. I gave them his parent's information.

I'm not next of kin, so they wouldn't tell me anymore.
I'm glad to hear it nita, I mean glad to hear that you at least know he is somewhere and safe I presume?
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Old 03-10-2018, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by trailmix View Post
I'm glad to hear it nita, I mean glad to hear that you at least know he is somewhere and safe I presume?
I was told that he's in a hospital not too far from me. Over six times the body's limit for alcohol. :-(
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Old 03-10-2018, 07:59 PM
  # 73 (permalink)  
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I’m sorry to hear it, nitabug.
Are you okay?
Course not. That had to be hard to hear.
Thinking of you.
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:18 PM
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I'm sorry to hear that too. Hopefully he will end up getting the help he needs.

I'm sorry for you too, you are no doubt feeling very hurt and a bit lost.

Please keep posting as you need to and know there are many people here hoping the best for you (and for him too).
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by nitabug0107 View Post
I was told that he's in a hospital not too far from me. Over six times the body's limit for alcohol. :-(
Sorry to hear he did that to himself. I've been away handling some 'life stuff',but just skimmed through the posts. Dear..you've heard it from all sides(cdie's,A's,ect..) and you seem like a very caring person. Please don't get involved with an addict. Active,in recovery,whatever.. I am one and will never be involved with one beyond business and even that's iffy,myself. Life's too short to have that worry!
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Old 03-11-2018, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by nitabug0107 View Post
I was told that he's in a hospital not too far from me. Over six times the body's limit for alcohol. :-(
thats good,yet not good, to hear. hes in the right place at this time.
nita, please take care of yourself at this time and be careful. i havent ended up in the hospital, but had times my fiance left. she would get tired of my drunken crap and leave.
but shed come back. me filled with im sorries and i promises and im going to's. none of it stuck. didnt take long and i was worse than before.
and she went down with me.
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Old 03-11-2018, 02:03 PM
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I went to dinner with his family. I'm 10 minutes from the hospital so it felt like the right thing to do to at least see his parents and get an update. He's been asking for me but I haven't gone. I don't want to see him like that.
I spoke to a therapist this morning. I've been to him before concerning other issues and thought it could help. He thinks that total abandonment of the situation will be damaging to both me and my "boyfriend."
He told me to love from a distance, set boundaries, and be encouraging when and if I go to see him. I do care about my "boyfriend" seeking treatment. I know that I can't make him, but could I be an inspiration?
I don't know what experience my therapist has with these situations. I feel like it's good advice as long as I stick to my boundaries (whatever those are...I need a plan). Any thoughts or suggestions from others with experience?
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Old 03-11-2018, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tomsteve View Post
thats good,yet not good, to hear. hes in the right place at this time.
nita, please take care of yourself at this time and be careful. i havent ended up in the hospital, but had times my fiance left. she would get tired of my drunken crap and leave.
but shed come back. me filled with im sorries and i promises and im going to's. none of it stuck. didnt take long and i was worse than before.
and she went down with me.
I'm not willing to go down with him. I'm trying to stay away from the hospital. Kept myself busy today and took care a lot of my "To Do" List.

I know that my heart wants to be with him and worry. I've let myself break and cry here and there... I'm not perfect. But I'm trying.
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Old 03-11-2018, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Maudcat View Post
Iím sorry to hear it, nitabug.
Are you okay?
Course not. That had to be hard to hear.
Thinking of you.
Thank you. It's hard. But I'm staying busy. I worry some, but after dinner with his parents, I know that he's safe and in the best place possible right now. Hopefully, he'll create a real recovery plan.
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Old 03-11-2018, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by trailmix View Post
I'm sorry to hear that too. Hopefully he will end up getting the help he needs.

I'm sorry for you too, you are no doubt feeling very hurt and a bit lost.

Please keep posting as you need to and know there are many people here hoping the best for you (and for him too).
Thank you for the support. I've never been part of a forum, much less updated one in "real time."
I'm praying he finds the strength to get help.
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