The small ways you lose yourself
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midwest
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Originally Posted by Sailorgirl57 
Now I see that his disrespect for my house was also disrespect for me.
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Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 235
I just remembered a moving house story...we had one more big load to go to the new house. He went with the big load, taking the kids with him, while I stayed behind with the animals. We had agreed that the animals would be the last to go along with a few more boxes etc. As I needed help to transport a dog and a cat, XAH said he and the kids would be back in about an hour to help me move the animals and the last few boxes...
XAH never came back. He got to the new house and set about drinking and BBQing with his brother and SIL who were meant to be helping. After a couple of hours waiting I realized he was never coming back to help so chucked the pets in the car with me, alone, and drove to the new house, alone with no help to manage the pets.
No-one apologized for failing to come back and help me.
XAH never came back. He got to the new house and set about drinking and BBQing with his brother and SIL who were meant to be helping. After a couple of hours waiting I realized he was never coming back to help so chucked the pets in the car with me, alone, and drove to the new house, alone with no help to manage the pets.
No-one apologized for failing to come back and help me.
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Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Stockport/Greater Manchester/Cheshire
Posts: 911
I used to feel guilty for the way I was.
I would over compensate and spend more money on things than my partner thinking it would make up for my ways.( it didn’t)
When I quit drinking, I didn’t do this anymore and my partner got angry with me for being tight.
Butterfly effect I think
I would over compensate and spend more money on things than my partner thinking it would make up for my ways.( it didn’t)
When I quit drinking, I didn’t do this anymore and my partner got angry with me for being tight.
Butterfly effect I think
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 30
These responses got me thinking more about a clean home/environment and what that means for me.
I agree with honeypig that cleaning helps us feel good. It feels like calm in the chaos. Part of the codie thinking I've had ot leave behind is the idea that me wanting calm in the chaos means I'm OCD or a nag or a perfectionist. I've learned since that for women, in particular, our homes are our refuges. They are a crucial part of our values and meaning in this world. that a safe, calm, relatively organized and clean home brings us stability, especially if we handle fires and issues outside our home. It becomes a place of retreat.
For me, my home has never felt like a retreat because of my husband's behaviors. So there is a sense of loss and grief over my home. He will make suggestions for bigger improvements (e.g. major renovations) and I shoot them down because it breaks my heart to think about spending all that cash on, say, a new floor upstairs, when the surrounding environment doesn't remain clean and uncluttered.
My husband is disorganized, to say the least. I do something like unclutter the dining room table, and within very short order, it becomes a stacking place for him again. I strongly believe his disorganization is an external manifestation of his addicted mindset. (and, of note, I think there are people who do not need to be organized, who are not addicts, and it's simply who and how they are and this is not a judgement on them or that. I recognize we all have relative levels of cleanliness and organization we prefer and that no one is "right" here.)
Sometimes cleaning and decluttering feels like a lost cause for me because those areas simply become another disrespected place, as sailor said. They become reminders of how little my needs are fully SEEN by him, and he chooses to address the easier "checklist" needs of mine than look at me with empathy and understanding. And yes, I have stated so many times my need for a decluttered home. There is no point in being a broken record here. He will either get it or he won't.
That is why decluttering my office is important: it is a sacred space in my home where he does not have any claim nor do any of his things make their way there.
When I clean or organize, it feels like reclaiming responsibility for my life. Where there is conflict in this is I could clean or organize another area of the home, and it will not STAY that way. Thus, I am caught in a bind: do I bother cleaning and organizing something (when it gives me joy to do so) when it simply gets trampled upon or not maintained?
The act of something that brings me clarity and stability becomes a thing that ends up frustrating me.
Yes, I understand there are answers to all of this in the form of boundaries and consequences. One of the consequences of living with an addict is we often put aside these kinds of issues because of the 'bigger' issues and fires that come with addicted thinking. It is like, if I have only so much emotional energy to expend in any given day or week, where will I expend that?
And I know then, yes, the answer to that is why am I expending any energy there and on that? Then my bind comes back: I shift my focus and energy to things that bring me joy or value (e.g. cleaning my home) and poof, that energy gets crapped on. So I choose to focus on my energy on things he cannot crap on, but am left with teh continued energy drain of my cluttered home.
That is my continued work in progress.
I agree with honeypig that cleaning helps us feel good. It feels like calm in the chaos. Part of the codie thinking I've had ot leave behind is the idea that me wanting calm in the chaos means I'm OCD or a nag or a perfectionist. I've learned since that for women, in particular, our homes are our refuges. They are a crucial part of our values and meaning in this world. that a safe, calm, relatively organized and clean home brings us stability, especially if we handle fires and issues outside our home. It becomes a place of retreat.
For me, my home has never felt like a retreat because of my husband's behaviors. So there is a sense of loss and grief over my home. He will make suggestions for bigger improvements (e.g. major renovations) and I shoot them down because it breaks my heart to think about spending all that cash on, say, a new floor upstairs, when the surrounding environment doesn't remain clean and uncluttered.
My husband is disorganized, to say the least. I do something like unclutter the dining room table, and within very short order, it becomes a stacking place for him again. I strongly believe his disorganization is an external manifestation of his addicted mindset. (and, of note, I think there are people who do not need to be organized, who are not addicts, and it's simply who and how they are and this is not a judgement on them or that. I recognize we all have relative levels of cleanliness and organization we prefer and that no one is "right" here.)
Sometimes cleaning and decluttering feels like a lost cause for me because those areas simply become another disrespected place, as sailor said. They become reminders of how little my needs are fully SEEN by him, and he chooses to address the easier "checklist" needs of mine than look at me with empathy and understanding. And yes, I have stated so many times my need for a decluttered home. There is no point in being a broken record here. He will either get it or he won't.
That is why decluttering my office is important: it is a sacred space in my home where he does not have any claim nor do any of his things make their way there.
When I clean or organize, it feels like reclaiming responsibility for my life. Where there is conflict in this is I could clean or organize another area of the home, and it will not STAY that way. Thus, I am caught in a bind: do I bother cleaning and organizing something (when it gives me joy to do so) when it simply gets trampled upon or not maintained?
The act of something that brings me clarity and stability becomes a thing that ends up frustrating me.
Yes, I understand there are answers to all of this in the form of boundaries and consequences. One of the consequences of living with an addict is we often put aside these kinds of issues because of the 'bigger' issues and fires that come with addicted thinking. It is like, if I have only so much emotional energy to expend in any given day or week, where will I expend that?
And I know then, yes, the answer to that is why am I expending any energy there and on that? Then my bind comes back: I shift my focus and energy to things that bring me joy or value (e.g. cleaning my home) and poof, that energy gets crapped on. So I choose to focus on my energy on things he cannot crap on, but am left with teh continued energy drain of my cluttered home.
That is my continued work in progress.
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 11,481
Just started listening to an audiobook called "Songs of the Humpback Whale" by Jodi Picoult (a novel, not a nature book). In it, our heroine's self-absorbed professor husband has run out of room for his boxes of data and so has removed all HER shoe boxes from HER closet to the bathroom closet, filling HER closet w/HIS boxes of papers, recordings, and other crap. She snaps, removing all his stuff to the hall in a less-than-tender fashion and finally emptying one box from the top of the stairwell...
We are not alone, sisters!
We are not alone, sisters!
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by dawnrising
I had my 4pm rush. Raising 2 kids and living with a perfectionist was no fun. Everyday at 4 I would rush around putting things in order and stressing out so that when he got home he could relax. The rest of us were not relaxed. It didn't matter what had been done AH would always find something to stress about. Its like he had secret expectations and was setting me up to fail. ....... But it goes to show that that behavior wasn't about me..........It did drive me nuts though. My AH soon to be ex still thinks that if everyone could just do the things his way on his timeline then he can finally be happy.
I'm glad you're in a place where you're moving on and finding peace in a home and system and lifestyle that works for you and your needs.
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 79
I see cleaning coming up a lot here. It can be therapeutic or compulsive, depending on whether or not you’re doing it for YOU.
When I met my ABF he was renting a room in a shaded house that was so dilapidated, it looked like a full blown crack house. In the end, they were evicted and the building was levelled to make way for new flat. This happened while he was at rehab so he had to move all his stuff into the spare room at his mothers and now splits his time between living with her and staying with me.
He was basically living in squalor in his old place, his mums house is small and cold and his room is a glorified shoe box.
So you can imagine my dismay, when he started spending less and less time here, that his reasoning was he finds my house too cluttered and it stresses him out!!??
The truth is that his mother is an enabler, so it’s easier for him to lie in bed snuggling with his bottle of vodka undisturbed.
However, I felt ashamed when he said that my house was too messy and I now spend a lot of my time cleaning up around everyone else and I get anxious if he comes over before I’ve had a chance to do the dishes etc. Definitely losing myself to it.
I also find myself quietly sneaking around in the morning, trying to get myself ready for work and my daughter ready for school, while he lies asleep face down in a pool of his own drool. Heaven forbid I should wake him before midday.
Funny thing is, that one is something I do myself, he’s never really complained about me waking him up or demanded that I sneak about quietly. It’s something I do off my own back but with a sense of obligation that I’m placing on myself.
When I met my ABF he was renting a room in a shaded house that was so dilapidated, it looked like a full blown crack house. In the end, they were evicted and the building was levelled to make way for new flat. This happened while he was at rehab so he had to move all his stuff into the spare room at his mothers and now splits his time between living with her and staying with me.
He was basically living in squalor in his old place, his mums house is small and cold and his room is a glorified shoe box.
So you can imagine my dismay, when he started spending less and less time here, that his reasoning was he finds my house too cluttered and it stresses him out!!??
The truth is that his mother is an enabler, so it’s easier for him to lie in bed snuggling with his bottle of vodka undisturbed.
However, I felt ashamed when he said that my house was too messy and I now spend a lot of my time cleaning up around everyone else and I get anxious if he comes over before I’ve had a chance to do the dishes etc. Definitely losing myself to it.
I also find myself quietly sneaking around in the morning, trying to get myself ready for work and my daughter ready for school, while he lies asleep face down in a pool of his own drool. Heaven forbid I should wake him before midday.
Funny thing is, that one is something I do myself, he’s never really complained about me waking him up or demanded that I sneak about quietly. It’s something I do off my own back but with a sense of obligation that I’m placing on myself.
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 497
Originally Posted by dawnrising
I had my 4pm rush. Raising 2 kids and living with a perfectionist was no fun. Everyday at 4 I would rush around putting things in order and stressing out so that when he got home he could relax. The rest of us were not relaxed. It didn't matter what had been done AH would always find something to stress about. Its like he had secret expectations and was setting me up to fail. At one point when I had DS in school but DD was still home he left me a checklist taped to the kitchen cabinet of things he needed done. I told my DS therapist about it. She told me to go home and do everything on the checklist my response was "wth" ! She said do it and I bet within 5 minutes he will find something to comment on. 5 minutes was super generous on her part 30 seconds was more like it. But it goes to show that that behavior wasn't about me..........It did drive me nuts though. My AH soon to be ex still thinks that if everyone could just do the things his way on his timeline then he can finally be happy. Its ridiculous but its also got to be hard to live with the burden of trying to control everything like that.
Oh god! A list?!
I never got a list, but this was certainly me. I called it my Lysol hour. My friends laughed at that. The strong smell might hit him and make him think I was cleaning all day. Never mind that I was home with a baby and a toddler. He too is a perfectionist about the things he wants to be about. I always tried to keep the house clean to make him happy. Granted, I also hate clutter and like things to be clean, but I was more concerned with his reaction. Now the kids are older, and they are slobs. It's really hard working and keeping up with everything that I would like to. The kitchen is his place. If they throw something where he doesn't like it, he will put it on my desk in my space.
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
Posts: 816
My AH's mother physically & emotionally abused him when
he was growing up. From his descriptions, she was an angry
OCD cleaner type. All his life he is scarred by this, for
example, he cant watch comedy where the house is getting
trashed or messed up. He gets very uncomfortable and gets up.
We got married and he complained for years about my clutter
habits. I wasn't that bad, but to him it was enough to make him
uncomfortable. I struggled to keep organized. Over the years, we came to a compromise some- where in the middle.
OTOH I came to see how certain things could be used as an excuse
to "attack" me. He'd come home & take out his frustrations by finding
something to harrass me about, let off steam, discharge his anger
at me.
The best boundary I ever made was to tell him I needed my home to
be a safe place for me. That I would no longer accept him discharging
his anger from other situations at me. That if something was a concern
to him we would calmly and respectfully discuss and RESOLVE it.
When I clean, it is for myself and the enjoyment I get from a clean and
neat home. I do feel like my home is a safe place, but sadly none of
this has stopped his drinking.
he was growing up. From his descriptions, she was an angry
OCD cleaner type. All his life he is scarred by this, for
example, he cant watch comedy where the house is getting
trashed or messed up. He gets very uncomfortable and gets up.
We got married and he complained for years about my clutter
habits. I wasn't that bad, but to him it was enough to make him
uncomfortable. I struggled to keep organized. Over the years, we came to a compromise some- where in the middle.
OTOH I came to see how certain things could be used as an excuse
to "attack" me. He'd come home & take out his frustrations by finding
something to harrass me about, let off steam, discharge his anger
at me.
The best boundary I ever made was to tell him I needed my home to
be a safe place for me. That I would no longer accept him discharging
his anger from other situations at me. That if something was a concern
to him we would calmly and respectfully discuss and RESOLVE it.
When I clean, it is for myself and the enjoyment I get from a clean and
neat home. I do feel like my home is a safe place, but sadly none of
this has stopped his drinking.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 30
I'm the OP of this thread, and it occurred ot me this morning the title might have worked better if it read, "The subtle ways you never found who you really are to begin with."
I don't know if I had much of an autonomous self going into my marriage. Most of what I was and how I acted (and to this day, in pattern mode it remains) came from being who and what my family of origin wanted me to be.
The self that developed was a self who was defined by whether she made others proud/happy/comforted/praised, etc.
I find I am left really wondering what in my life is mine and represents my preferences and desires, and what is everyone else. (Firesprite alluded to this with her choices and decisions in some of her historical posts).
I don't know if I had much of an autonomous self going into my marriage. Most of what I was and how I acted (and to this day, in pattern mode it remains) came from being who and what my family of origin wanted me to be.
The self that developed was a self who was defined by whether she made others proud/happy/comforted/praised, etc.
I find I am left really wondering what in my life is mine and represents my preferences and desires, and what is everyone else. (Firesprite alluded to this with her choices and decisions in some of her historical posts).
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hearthealth.....I think support for mi nor surgery is just common sense stuff that you would do for any stranger who had just had s surgery....like, if you were helping a neighbor or a co-worker, for instance. I don't think it has to be any more than that....
You just allow them to rest....and, help them with what they are temporarily unable, or is unsafe to do for themselves......
Patients are always given some written instructions on discharge. That is a good template for them/you to follow.
Question---it is that you are h aving trouble to feel some hum an kindness in your heart as you get him that glass of water? LOL. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case...giving the co nsiderable strain in your relationship, at this point. Not to worry. If you don't feel the "love"...that is o.k. He doesn't need the love...he just needs the damn glass of water.
I think that just basic civility is the only minimum requirement.
You just allow them to rest....and, help them with what they are temporarily unable, or is unsafe to do for themselves......
Patients are always given some written instructions on discharge. That is a good template for them/you to follow.
Question---it is that you are h aving trouble to feel some hum an kindness in your heart as you get him that glass of water? LOL. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case...giving the co nsiderable strain in your relationship, at this point. Not to worry. If you don't feel the "love"...that is o.k. He doesn't need the love...he just needs the damn glass of water.
I think that just basic civility is the only minimum requirement.
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,144
Originally Posted by dandylion
Question---it is that you are h aving trouble to feel some hum an kindness in your heart as you get him that glass of water? LOL. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case...giving the co nsiderable strain in your relationship, at this point. Not to worry. If you don't feel the "love"...that is o.k. He doesn't need the love...he just needs the damn glass of water.
I think that just basic civility is the only minimum requirement.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
Originally Posted by lightandsea
I'm the OP of this thread, and it occurred ot me this morning the title might have worked better if it read, "The subtle ways you never found who you really are to begin with."
I don't know if I had much of an autonomous self going into my marriage. Most of what I was and how I acted (and to this day, in pattern mode it remains) came from being who and what my family of origin wanted me to be.
The self that developed was a self who was defined by whether she made others proud/happy/comforted/praised, etc.
I find I am left really wondering what in my life is mine and represents my preferences and desires, and what is everyone else. (Firesprite alluded to this with her choices and decisions in some of her historical posts).
I don't know if I had much of an autonomous self going into my marriage. Most of what I was and how I acted (and to this day, in pattern mode it remains) came from being who and what my family of origin wanted me to be.
The self that developed was a self who was defined by whether she made others proud/happy/comforted/praised, etc.
I find I am left really wondering what in my life is mine and represents my preferences and desires, and what is everyone else. (Firesprite alluded to this with her choices and decisions in some of her historical posts).
LOL - "Unbecoming what I was never supposed to be in the first place"..... it's a very, very challenging process. But completely worth it.
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Join Date: Sep 2016
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I don't know if this fits but I always remember this moment with him. This was before I even started going to alanon and posting here. I had found out he was having an affair for months. I was devastated as I never knew he would go that far, especially because things weren't quite bad with us yet. I was an unrecovered codie so behaved perfectly to him. A shining enabler. I wasn't cold or affected by his drinking yet. How could he? The day I found out he also left on a bender and I kicked him out (we weren't living together but he would stay with me). After a few days I got worried and went to rescue him from his room in an apartment his roommate said he was drinking and destroying. I picked him up that day, locked in his room full of empties all smelly and soaked in **** and clothes with vomit. I took him home with me and bathed him myself, made a fresh warm bed on the sofa and flicked on the TV. Because I had thrown something at it when he was over last when I found out about the affair, I must have broken it. Because I didn't want him not to have television during detox (he binged on TV after his drinking bouts), I ran out to Target and bought a brand new television. I dragged the big heavy box down the street and up the elevator and set it up myself. Then I ordered us pizza. I wanted him to be warm and comfy and fed. I felt like such a savior seeing him all clean and safe. Like I saved him from all the discomfort and sickness. I was gonna make it all better.
I continued to lose myself for the next several years. I will never forget that moment.
I continued to lose myself for the next several years. I will never forget that moment.
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,144
Before my husband's minor surgery he dropped his work stuff off in the corner of the study. I asked him to pick it up before his surgery. It's still sitting there a big pile in my way. If it was my pile of stuff I would hear about it repeatedly. So there or sits.
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