Wamama48

Im not sure if I can help. I believe in marriage. I believe in fighting tooth and nail for it when two people love each other. My husband just quit drinking two weeks ago, and I am so proud of him. I'm still here, trying to figure things out. I applaud your wife for telling you exactly how she feels and why she feels that way. She is telling you there is a lot of hurt, resentment and anger built up over the years. That she has felt like just a body when it comes to that part of your relationship. I can see where shes coming from. True, you have to focus on your sobriety. But there is room for your wife too, and you are doing a good job of showing her you are serious. If you look at your sobriety and marriage like it has to be one or the other, that is all wrong. The best thing you can do is keep getting the help you need to be sober, show her you can do it, and you will do it, and you are succeeding. Dont give up on your sobriety or your marriage. And if I were you, I wouldn't mention the sexual part of your relationship to her again. That could just make her feel like you don't care about what she just told you (that's how I would take it anyway). Keep showing her that you love her, and maybe it will come back. Its worth the effort I'm sure.

Ladybird579

"You are now the whole package, you check all of the boxes. If I met you on a dating site I would fall head over heels. But you have starved me of the emotional intimacy I craved for years, and I began feeling like your prostitute, rather than your wife. The thought of ever being physically intimate with you again makes me feel sick, I don't know if and when I might be able to feel differently. If and when that happens, I might consider reconciliation, but I don't know if that is months, years, or never."

That above is clear. She has told you in the nicest way she can she is done with your marriage. Whatever happened during the 20 years cannot be undone for her and it can't for most of us who have lived with active acoholics for years. It may seem unfair to you but your sobriety has come too late for your marriage. Time to move on and concentrate on being sober and living the best life you can and let her do the same. Hoping for anything else is denial of the situation. I say this from experience. My exah still harbours fantasies of us getting back together 3 years post divorce. It is never happening. Not ever. I would not put my hand in the fire twice and there is nothing left between us to save. He's not helping himself by refusing to move on and it's got annoying to me that the subject keeps getting raised when he remembers I exist. I could have said word for word what your wife said to you to my exah. We were married 20 years too. Focus on yourself and see what life brings next.

LateBloominCait

Remember too that it took them threatening to leave for you to take it seriously and seek help. When it was a problem for them for years and years, you wouldn't get help but as soon as the marriage might end and it is a negative thing for you all of the sudden, you are willing to do the work they asked you to do a long time ago. We alcoholics don't stop being selfish the second we seek help. Many times we even seek help for selfish reasons and this fact is often not lost on our spouses who are at their wit's end with us.

The ugly truth is that you didn't care about your spouse's needs until it started to impact your own. Until you are at a place to be able to understand this and be honest about it, you are not ready to be a good partner yet. And I am not lecturing here but speaking from experience. You are still thinking about this from the perspective of what you want and need. What she needs now is time apart and space to regain her sense of worth and self esteem. You can't violate someone's trust for years and years and expect them to open right back up when you decide it's time. That isn't how it works.

I hope this isn't coming off as harsh. It is a sad situation for both of you, but right now you are the one who needs to be patient and selfless. It was your turn for all of your drinking years. Now it's her turn to put herself first.

ScaryTime

yes!

OpheliaKatz

I wrote a long, long post... and then SR "ate" it. I'll try to be short.

1) I agree with what a lot of people said here. Puzzheart, Glenl, Dandelion... .
2) My spouse and I were together for slightly over a decade. Over time his dishonesty, abuse, manipulation, and general slovenliness eroded the trust and emotional intimacy in our relationship.
3) I'll probably write a response in greater detail tomorrow. I'm tried. I just want to mention PAWS -- post acute withdrawal syndrome. This kicks in a few hours to a year after stopping drugs/drink. It has symptoms... among them are depression. The reason it happens is because drugs/drink messes with the dopamine in your brain. Your brain gets damaged by addiction. So after you stop, your brain still seeks a dopamine high. One of the ways dopamine if produced is by having sex. [Stop me if any of this is medically inaccurate... I did say I am writing this tired]. If you are struggling with your feelings, do not hesitate to see an addiction specialist doctor or psychiatrist because they can prescribe anti-depressants.
4) If my ex spouse showed up after 4 months sobriety (good work, by the way, keep going, I hope this is the start of a lifetime of health for you)... if he showed up after 4 months and wanted a relationship reboot plus sex, I would feel like he was trying to smoke/drink/snort/inject me. I'm the new drug. I'm the syringe. I'm the bong. I'm the bottle. I'm... you get it? I would feel like he was trying to use me all over again. I have already given him everything, despite him being abusive. I am emotionally, physically, financially depleted from the relationship. I have nothing else to give him, I don't even have enough for myself.
5) Now, I'm not saying that number 4 (above) necessarily applies to you. It might, it might not... but 4 months is short. Life is long. The damage to relationships after 10, 20 years of addiction does not get rectified in 4 months.
6) Put yourself in your spouse's shoes. Imagine someone else did all the things you did to her to you. Now imagine how you feel about them. If you don't remember all the things you did to her, have a read around the forum. Even if you think you remember it all, remember that your brain was affected and have a read around the forum anyway. The effect of addiction on family members is horrendous. Addictions destroys families. It's like an atom bomb. If an A bomb goes off, you don't walk back there and expect to go apple picking after 4 months. It takes time for the land to recover.
7) Trust has to be earned. If you are willing to do the work, I would start with offering friendship. But 4 months is nothing if not a start. So I would try to work on you first while she works on herself. Good luck!

180Man

Thanks for all of the replies, these perspectives are exactly what I was hoping for. Not that it makes a big difference to the situation, but I am the type of alcoholic who drank moderately (six pack of beer) every day (more on weekends), but withdrew from the family more and more over the years so I could enjoy my addiction alone. The harm I caused the family was directly related to the growing neglect, as well as the arguments arising around my denial and attempts to shift blame (protect my alcohol consumption at all costs).

I have tried to quit drinking several times in the past. I tried Naltrexone, and it worked a wonder, and cured me of my cravings to drink completely. It only took one night after about a year of sobriety for my cousin and close friend to pressure me in 'drinking for just one night' and anyone who knows an addict knows how that turns out. Given all of my attempts to quit drinking over the years, I can only assume that even with the new promising start I have my wife has every reason to be skeptical that it will stick. I also know that my issues with alcoholism extend far beyond the amount of alcohol I drank, but the way I think and view others around me (actively aware and working on this).

My wife also said this to me recently when I asked her for the sake of our marriage would she be willing to work on the physical intimacy challenges she is having. She responded:

"I need the time and space for the wounded girl inside of me to sit with these feelings. I need to show her respect, and not try to force or fix the issue. For me, this is more important right now than trying to fix our marriage."

Given all of the harm I am taking personal responsibility for, I have not questioned her on this. I recognize that I need to provide her with the space and time to wrestle with this in her own way, without any interference or pressure from me.

I also told her the other day, when I found out that she was reconnecting with an old flame, that I was giving up hope in any future for our marriage. Strangely, she responded:

"Maybe it is best for you to give up hope, you need to focus on your recovery, but I am not ruling out a relationship with you in the future, I am just not ready now or for the foreseeable future."

I almost wish she had told me there was no hope so that I could move on. Regardless, someone at Al-Alon gave me the best advice I have received so far:

"You caused years of pain and suffering. Your best course of action is to be willing to sit and remain in the discomfort you are feeling now, and not try to avoid it. This will help make you the strongest person you can be."

That advice is what I am focusing on most of all.

Thanks again everyone, and I look forward to any further thoughts and insights, and the longer post you might find time to write, Ophelia.

Thanks again,

M180

PrettyViolets

Both of you have just committed to each other for 20 years of your life. It is honest thing to say that it is not healthy for either of you to be in a rebound relationship with anyone. It is her life. She deserves the chance to date other people and see if she can be happier with someone else.

Her actions (finalizing the divorce, getting into another relationship) rather than her words are going to be a better indicator. It is like she has one foot out and one foot possibly maybe in for the future.

I am 46 years old. The dating world scares the living crap out of me. With an old flame, maybe both of them are at a better place in the their life to make a relationship work. But, if this relationship did not work out in the past with her old flame, it is hard to know if it would work out again in the future.

Take care of yourself and your sobriety.

LLLisa

Except for your wife it may not be a rebound relationship. You checked out of the relationship by being an alcoholic who knows how many years ago...Your wife may have checked out the last time she begged for you to stop and felt ignored.

In my case, my marriage was over for me three years before my XAH believed me. It took him three years to realize I was serious and to leave. We were married for 22 years before he actually left.

Done4today

M180,

This is the healthiest approach to your recovery and to have a healthy relationship with your estranged wife. She herself is in recovery from you. Let her find herself and get healthy. It took her years (I am assuming) to gather the strength to leave you to start your recovery journey. Stay the course and put your sobriety first because without it there is no hope of a future with or without your wife.

Take this time to love M180, find out what M180 has become and wants to do. You might find out that your estranged wife isn't the woman best for you. Be the most supportive ex you can be. Be kind and respectful to her because she deserves it not because you want her back. (it will shorten your 4th and 9th step also). Let life happen and develop the way it does. What you've done in the past is done and sometimes the damage can't be repaired.

Good luck M180, your posts sound like you have gotten a good foundation to your sobriety. Keep building on it and life will work out the way it's supposed to happen. That usually is much different than we want it to happen.

PuzzledHeart

OpheliaKatz, thank you so much for this. This helps me more than I can say.

180Man

FYI about the old flame... At first I was filled with jealously and tried to be controlling, and then realized that such behaviour was only pushing her away further. I've accepted the situation for what it is, and my W has told me that she is not jumping in to anything, but that out of sheer loneliness she contacted him shortly after announcing separation from me. I cannot blame her for that and have since accepted that I need to leave these anxieties up to my HP.

Thanks all for the understanding and honest responses, this has been very helpful for me in gaining perspective and resolve in my decision to let go and focus on recovery.

I still want to find out all I can about the repulsion to physical intimacy, but this thread has been incredibly helpful so far. My W thought that her feelings were unique, and they obviously aren't. It sounds like a common issue, and one that is apparently very difficult to get over, which is helping me accept the realities of my situation.

M180

Sleepyhollo

I agree with this BUT what if the spouse isn't sure if they love their RAH or RAW anymore. What if we don't actually really know what love is? Sure I thought I loved my husband and at some point I did. I think it was a very dysfunctional kind of love however. But the last 2 years before rehab especially were very hard and resentment builds up and emotional detachment happens and you're going through the motions. I've learned a lot about myself and my previous relationships in life starting with my mom which set me on a path to my two dysfunctional marriages. And I will admit that I don't really know what love is anymore other than the love for my child. Not sure I ever really did. And rehab was really tough on our relationship, not because he was gone but just the whole recovery process and both o us working ont things and me also realizing how messed up I was in terms of being codependent/enabler. Once the physical attraction has gone by the wayside and turned into repulsiveness because of the years of alcoholism it is really hard to get that back. I think it is hard regardless of what the cause is but alcoholism just adds another layer of complication.
We are different people now as we should be. But I feel like our interests have changed. And I refuse to give up drinking which he is actually ok with (I don't drink at home and I don't drink a lot per se but I will drink when we go out to dinner and when I hang with friends, looking back we also never did much without each other. We were always hanging out together and most of that involved drinking (dinners, watching movies etc) then kids came along and alcoholism got worse and worse. Also once my kid started going to school I started making more friends and now I want to do stuff without him. Our relationship wasn't healthy looking back at it but perfect for his alcoholism. Sure we had good times but those have become blurry over the years when things started getting worse. I guess my point with all of this is that most relationships with an alcoholic are probably a dysfunctional and unhealthy love to a certain degree because the two personalities are perfect for he alcoholic. After both people have to change it isn't too far fetched that too much damage has been done and love has beeen destroyed in the process. I just kept on plugging on because of the kids but it really damaged me ( and I didn't know how much until these last few months even)
I'm still here because of my kid. If it wasn't for her I would've left. I know I won't stay in the marriage long term because of her and then leave in 10'years when she is out of the house. But I am willing to give it more time and see if things will work out. If they do then great, if they don't I can say I really tried.
I know there are plenty of people who are able to make it work after the AS is in recovery and I applaud them for it. But I'm pretty sure there are also,plenty of people who can't make it work. I also applaud this lady to be able to tell her husband what she told him. As someone stated earlier, often people don't make a real effort to quit until they're given an ultimatum of the spouse leaving. At that point obviously it has become bad enough that the spouse wants out. Had my H quit 3 yeas ago things would've been different more than likely, physical intimacy wasn't good then either but I wasn't fed up and done like I was this time (which is why I was able to give the ultimatum). A person can only take so much and that is obviously different for different people and it also depends on the length and the severity of the alcoholism during the relationship so no cookie cutter answer.
My H was pissed when he was in rehab because I didn't want to talk to him anymore. Because even wives who had been cheated on were showing their husbands more support than what I had for him. Well they're not me and I'm not them so you can't compare what each other has been through (or even what is really going on behind closed doors)
Sorry for the ramble but after almost a year and a half of weekly individual counseling and a year of weekly marriage counseling and the whole rehab experience I've learned a lot both about myself and my H and alcoholism , more than I ever wanted to know really. And let me tell you recovery is tough on both parties and a slow process, I never would've thought so but it is so complicated and so much more than quitting drinking.. That's why unless people have been in your shoes they really don't get it. And why would they?
Sometimes I wish I had just left and not even bothered with the last chance. It probably would've been easier in a sense. But I think a lot of things that have come out through counseling were probably important and needed to come out regardless of what the end result it. Things were pretty ugly even until about 4 months ago when we had a big blow up (well mostly him) and things have calmed down a lot since then but not in the sense that it has brought us closer at all. I have a lot of resentment and he doesn't get the extent of it. He is starting to understand more. But with communication in the toilet for so long I still have a big problem with talking to him. Practical stuff has become much easier, emotional stuff I can't do outside of counseling even a year after rehab. Part of that dates back to my upbringing but certainly made worse by my two marriages and kicked into high gear with the alcoholism. And physical stuff I won't touch with a ten foot pole.
Again it's a different journey for everyone despite there being a lot of similarities since we all are dealing with addiction. But everyone's story is slightly different. I really wish I could make my marriage work but feelings are not something that you can easily change especially in a complicated husband/wife relationship when a lot of damage has been done. Wanting it to work isn't always going to be enough. But I'm trying and I haven't given up yet but it is hard sometimes not to just run away (have I mentioned I'm an avoider/ non confrontational person )

velma929

Coming late to this discussion..

The idea of sex with my alcoholic husband became a task to be handled to eventually something I was unwilling to do at all. Having sex with a drunk person wasn't appealing. I had zero desire for him physically.

I wish you wife had been clearer, too. But I think we (civilized people, especially women) are conditioned to spare other people's feelings, so a comment like 'not ruling out a relationship in the future' spills out. In my opinion, we are not doing ourselves or the person we speak to any favors. At best, it's not an honest representation of the truth: our relationship is so damaged it can never be successfully repaired. At worst, it's a little manipulative. We don't know what's out there for us, so keeping the door open means there's somebody to go back to if we can't find someone new.

biminiblue

Or maybe she honestly and truly doesn't know exactly how she feels.

When I was leaving my marriage I was pretty confused and a part of me wanted it to still work. It was weird though, because as soon as he started "trying" (we were already divorced) I just got angrier that he all of a sudden cared after all the years of crazy.

Not knowing if it would work in the future had nothing to do with keeping him on hold - I just was so burned I couldn't even consider touching that stove again but a part of me wanted to believe I'd be able to forgive him and we'd end up back together.

I don't think any of us have a clear path in our head. Leaving a marriage is a super painful thing and I don't think manipulation is the correct attribute here. I didn't know which way was up for very long time.

OpheliaKatz

Some brief comments in response to the discussion. These are responses to quotes from different people.

“I believe in fighting tooth and nail for it when two people love each other.”

Here are my thoughts on this: I have learnt that life is long but time is short. So you have a long time to spend doing things that are bad for you and others, and a very short time to spend doing things that are good for you and others. We’re not cats, we only live once. If you were going to read a biography about you, what would you want it to say? It could say: “Despite her husband’s lies, financial, emotional, and physical abuse, Okatz was a commendable, faithful, loving spouse until the end… when he died an untimely death following a drug overdose from a two-decade long drug and alcohol addiction. Okatz leaves no assets, no offspring except for a nuisance of cats, which were found licking her bloated corpse.” In my case, the lies and abuse made me realise that AH did not love me because he did not respect me… he did not reciprocate my love. It was also likely that if AH did get sober, his abuse would not go away, it was likely that him being abusive was just him being himself. I think if AH did love me and the love in our relationship was reciprocal, then I think AH would have attempted to get help for his problem 5, 6, or 7 years ago. I know a woman whose AH uses his addiction to control her – if he didn’t get what he wanted from her, he would self-harm with drink, literally drink himself into a stupor… or try to kill himself. He would then punch or choke her… and blame the drink. The relationship dynamic was toxic. She says that they both love each other… but that isn’t my definition of “love”. They have been doing that dance for forty years. One day someone is going to end up dead (that’s my opinion… I don’t know what will happen to them. I also think they have a problem that is not just addiction…).

“My H was pissed when he was in rehab because I didn't want to talk to him anymore. Because even wives who had been cheated on were showing their husbands more support than what I had for him.”

I read somewhere that adultery, abuse, and addiction, are supposed to be “deal-breakers”. I think that families of addicts sometimes tolerate things that “normies” would not tolerate. If you stop seeing the addict as “sick”, and start looking at their behaviour and not the cause of their behaviour, it is harder to accept that we should tolerate this sort of life. I am not saying that we should or should not tolerate it, I’m just saying that the thing that affects family members is not the cause of the behaviour, it’s the behaviour itself.

“I guess my point with all of this is that most relationships with an alcoholic are probably a dysfunctional and unhealthy love to a certain degree because the two personalities are perfect for the alcoholic. After both people have to change it isn't too far fetched that too much damage has been done and love has been destroyed in the process.”

I agree with this, this makes sense to me. Thanks.

“I don't think any of us have a clear path in our head. Leaving a marriage is a super painful thing and I don't think manipulation is the correct attribute here. I didn't know which way was up for very long time.”

I agree 100%. Leaving a marriage is like… well, firstly you almost don’t believe it’s happening. I felt a bit like… like I was lost in a crowd in a foreign country where everyone was shouting at me in a language I did not understand. I knew I had to do certain things in order to survive… and that is ALL I knew. It’s extremely traumatic for some people. I was in the relationship for so many years, I no longer know who I am alone. Therefore, if I did say that I wanted to keep my options open (despite all the utter cr@p that my ex AH did to me), it is because it might take a long time to get to know myself again. It almost feels like being a teenager again… except I don’t have the benefit of being young, naïve, energetic, beautiful to potential sexual partners (cause, I’m old), and I don’t have seemingly limitless time ahead of me, nor do I have the ready forgiveness of adults around me who actually know how this “adult-ing” business works.

People do not know what it’s like to leave a marriage until they have to do it. Not want to do it. HAVE to do it. Doesn’t matter how much I still love/had loved my spouse. Doesn’t matter if I understand why he did what he did – he still did it, he “WENT” there. So I had to do it.

BAW81

180man - I was with my STBXAH for 8 years total, part dating part married. Over time, as his drinking got worse, he lost jobs, he lied repeatedly, his emotional abuse intensified, he emotionally abandoned me when our child was born, etc....the love we had in the beginning got chipped away bit by bit and resentment grew and grew. The thought of kissing, hugging, or even having sex was repulsive to me. Still is. He choked the love out of the relations hip with every incident. I also let the love get choked by staying in the relationship and expecting that things would change and get better.

I am working VERY hard on forgiveness right now but I'll never forget how extremely painful life was with him. There are moments that still haunt me and while I continue to work on forgiving him, I'll never fully trust him again. I can't imagine being intimate with someone I don't trust, it would feel like a violation.

FireSprite

Thank you for this - SO well said!!


In response to this:

I believe in it too - but love is very often NOT enough to carry all the moving parts of a complicated relationship through recovery & beyond. Especially if a person's definition of love includes acting from a place of Fear, Obligation or Guilt.

As one of my favorite members used to say, "Marriage isn't a mutual suicide pact".

hopeful4

Wow. Where to start. First, congratulations on your recovery journey and staying true! It seems you realize this has to happen for YOU, and that is where real recovery starts.

I can honestly say I do understand what your wife is saying. She was pretty blunt, but I get it. I think no matter how fit, attractive, physically and mentally healthy one is, those memories may never fade. Many times my XAH left me feeling like a hooker. I think I even said once, leave the money on the dresser. Being a smartmouth, not serious, but that is how I felt.

What she is fighting is memories. Memories made during those most intimate times, and the hurts you suffer when that should be special moments during your marriage, are hard to forget. She is saying it may not be possible, and she is right to admit that to herself, and to you. The smell of booze. The roughness. The lack of intimacy. Your mind reeling while you feel used and forcing yourself to go through the motions. It's not something that is easy to explain. I can only say I don't think I can ever forget.

I hope you don't let that derail your own recovery. I hope she can get past those things for herself, and that you continue to strive to be the most amazing person you can be, with or without her.

firebolt

Dang - you sound pretty great, you SOUND like recovery - congratulations!

I'd say keep doing exactly that stuff. Who knows what'll happen, but the standard around here is a year of recovery is a good marker that things might stick.

I hope she has Alanon, or counseling of her own. No one knows what the future holds, but maybe after a year or so, you could suggest marriage counseling and see if she's open to it. Your best chance is to keep doing what you are doing, and not just for your marriage. I wish you the best, you deserve it!!

CentralOhioDad

I'll jump in as a guy (and people presume that all guys want is s*x). Well, that's not all I want - not even close. And, after now 6+ years of her continual drinking, repeated put-downs, and love of the bottle, the last thing I want is to mess around.

She told me years ago that - "who needs sex, I have my (drink-of-choice at that moment). I don't want to have relations with someone who smells like a vodka/wine bottle, who night after night gets a glazed-over look in her eyes and can't remember a simple conversation from the night before.

I also don't want anything to do with someone who, on a regular basis, tells me what a sh*tty person/husband/father I am. Sexy? Hellno.

And if suddenly she had some epiphany and turned herself around, I wouldn't trust a word that comes out of her mouth for a VERY long time. Like someone else said, 4-6 weeks is a commercial break when looking at 20-some years.

Congrats on what you have accomplished so far - many people don't get that far. But focus on progress, YOUR progress, and see what happens. You might find that once you come out the other side, hopefully healthy, that she is not the one for you anymore - you never know.

Just my $.02

COD