darthsnukums

Hi. Short term lurker; first time poster. It's a long story, and I'll try to cut it down as much as possible (because I'm sure there isn't anything here that y'all haven't seen before). Sorry in advance for any rambling or jumping around in the timeline.

I've known my husband about 10 years, married 6. When I met him, he was almost 2 years sober. He had a sponsor, went to meetings, working a program. I was hesitant, but we took things slow. I met his sponsor, went to some open meetings with him, went to conventions, round ups, etc. To be honest, it really wasn't my thing. Maybe I just had bad luck and only ran into shady folks... but I didn't like it. I figured that I didn't have to; this wasn't my thing - it was his. I was supportive, listened when he spoke with me about stuff, but never really asked him about anything that was going on. Not my job to keep tabs on him.

Looking back, I still don't see a lot of 'red flags'. Maybe they were there and I didn't see them? I don't know. He was still 'rebuilding' his life so to speak. Going to school, working hard, etc. He seemed genuine, caring, kind, affectionate, etc. Things went well. After about 3 years we moved in together; after knowing each other for 4 years, we married. During that time I was working as a labourer and had two near misses almost back to back at work where I could have been killed. I had a nervous breakdown and was out of work for a while before going back to work in a completely different field. He was amazingly supportive of me.

After being together about 6 years, we decided we were ready to have children. He was supportive during the pregnancy, and everything seemed fine.

Two days after our first was born, it felt like everything went to hell. He became sullen, cold, angry. I was running on virtually NO sleep (baby was colicky) Looking back, I'm sure I had postpartum depression, too. And I'm sure that I wasn't exactly a zen buddhist monk to deal with - hormones are a B***H. I've only realised now what was happening was emotional abuse. I don't think I need to go into details. Baiting. Playing the victim. No win situations. Gaslighting. Crazy making. If I left the room to avoid the yelling, he followed me around and stand in the doorway to trap me in the room while blasting me. If I left the apartment, he would phone me threatening to divorce. If I broke down and cried, he'd get mad that I'm doing it to bother him and to 'get some ******* help' and walk away. I left to go stay with family for a bit.

He apologised for everything that happened, and promised that it would be better if I came back..... and I did (come on, don't look at me like that; y'all knew I was gonna say that!) Anyway, things did get better for a while... then they started going back to the way they were. Blamed work and his coworkers. He wanted to move to another city, transfer, and start over. He pushed that he wanted to buy a house - that a house and a wife and children was what he wanted in life to be happy. I felt uncomfortable with it; things were still rough. He started making threats like if I didn't go along with the move, he was going to quit and I would have to find work to support us staying where we were. I knew he couldn't care for the baby and I was still messed up with lack of sleep and postpartum. I hoped that the change would give him what he wanted to be happy. He found the house, we did viewings, inspections, etc. He really REALLY wanted the house.

We moved and then he suddenly hated the house. Found stupid **** to complain about. Stuff we KNEW about before moving in. He claimed that he didn't know about this stuff. Complained that work was slow and it was stressing him out. Things got worse. He got counselling found a group, got a new sponsor, and things got a little better. Work got better, etc.

Then things started getting a lot better. We talked about another child (we had always wanted two). He promised that he would be more supportive, etc (okay, I can HEAR everyone's eyes rolling right now). Yeah, I believed him. We got pregnant again and.... he was great. Really supportive, kinder, etc.

And then in the 3rd trimester, it all went to hell again. It hit a new level in hell. It made the first visit to hell look like we never left the gift shop. Work was busy and that was too stressful. All the stuff about the house that he 'let go' of was bothering him again and all my fault. His parents didn't teach him enough. His teachers didn't parent him enough. His university never quacked him anything. His psychologist agrees with him that quack is my parents fault. It's my aunt's fault that quacked the quack quack.

I had the baby. It got worse. Everything from before. Baiting. Crazy making. Silent treatment. Nasty glares. Hitting walls. Kicking furniture. Road rage. Insisting that I have to 'help' him with EVERYTHING - then yelling at me for doing it wrong. Talking about how close he came to assaulting people at work. Wants to move far away (and far from family), and I don't want to. Fights over me trying to have a say in how we spend money (or rather, should NOT spend it). Starts hinting about us trading roles again. I try mentioning couples counselling for the ... 10th time? And of course he refuses as he has for the last 2 years. Says he doesn't like me, he's only staying for the kids. When the kids are older I'll get a rude awakening. He doesn't care any more. And his favourite go-to line "Go f*** yourself".

I tell him that I'll leave to give us a few days break. He says "Whatever. **** off". I call family (who I've been talking to about this - and I am sooo lucky to have friends and family he was not successful in chasing off). As I'm packing he sees me on the phone, his eyes bug out and total 180. "Okay, we'll go to counselling together! Just stay!" I say "No... *I* need some time away" He calls and admits that he didn't treat me 'the best' and didn't realize it until after I left... but he has a new sponsor now, and a new counsellor!! (whatever, he's always had a sponsor, always had a psychologist or therapist, or psychiatrist - made no difference then, what difference does it make now?). He asked me to do counselling, but later decided he didn't want to since 'we haven't really been separated that long'.

I'm[I] just so confused right now wondering what the hell happened?? I mean, I read all of the stories here, but they always seem to start with a tale of relapse. The alcoholic is in his disease. The drug is number one and all they care about. All of this **** happened while he was SOBER!! All the triangulation.... manipulating my family to try and take advantage of them... mind games. All while not drinking. All while talking to his sponsor, going to meetings religiously. All while talking at meetings about how wonderful his life is and people applauding his success story... for him to go out to the parking lot and scream at me because he didn't know how to fold up the stroller. It's like, this wasn't the disease. He did this! It almost feels like it wouldn't have hurt so much if he HAD relapsed - I still would have left his ass, don't get me wrong - but at least there would have been a reason other than 'he was an evil bastard who never really cared about you and just manipulated you until he felt you were stuck'.

Any insights would be much appreciated. Thank you for enduring my blathering.

Smiley1

IMHO I think it is painful either way, relapse wouldn't have changed that. This person is the father of your child and you have a bond because of that.

I think that you are doing the best for you and your child.

Best wishes!

biminiblue

First, that quack paragraph was a genius little bit of writing. I'm sorry for your pain, but you've got talent. The whole post is really well written.

I was with a guy like this. Jealous when I pet a neighbor's cat. Turned it into a whole abandonment issue that went on for days. That's what I thought of during your story. Babies change the dynamic, and HE was the baby. Geez, what are you thinking.

Sounds like you have kept your head in this breakup. I hope you don't go back for Round 3.

I'm an alcoholic in recovery, as well as having had a number of relationships with drug/alcohol users. Is it possible he was using some kind of drugs? Did his shrink have him medicated? It's really common for alcoholics to switch over to other drugs - sometimes prescribed drugs. My doctor was more than complicit in supplying me with benzos and other drugs that I could have easily misused as my doctor was not versed in addict behavior.

Having prescribed drugs often leads to more drug-seeking behavior - and your husband's mood instability *could* be related to that. I'm not saying that's the problem, but it's really common to hear in addiction circles. Many past addicts end up back at it eventually unless they really embrace the change every single day - and work at it. The two years "sober" that he had when you met? Hm.

OpheliaKatz

So... I apologize if I found this mildly entertaining, I guess because it reminded me of my relationship, except without the "baby" part (sadly baby never happened)... so here are my comments. Take them or leave them. I always comment through the lens of my limited experience with an addict. I was with an addict for 10 years... and some of that time, he was dry (or so I thought).

Before I start, I have to tell you that I think you need to leave for the safety of yourself and your children. I understand completely if you don't, because it's difficult to do that. I'm just worried about the road rage and him hitting things. I feel it's only a matter of time before he hits a human. Note: you only need to be hit ONCE to accidentally die. You need to be safe. Hitting objects is already physical assault. His behavior has been progressively worse over time.

Hi. Welcome. Please post often. I feel like I can "hear" your voice in your writing, which is nice.

I think you're right, it's not your job to keep tabs on him, that's HIS job.

Oh this sounds so familiar to me. Where have I seen this before? Oh yes, in my own home... before the addict left. It seems as if he's not handling stress well. Something about having children, or having to be a parent, freaks him out. He's basically, sober but not in recovery. Recovery is about a lot more than not drinking or drugging, it's about a fundamental change in an addict's psychology. It's about the way they handle stress. If I recall, my addict had almost zero capability to self-soothe. He self-soothed with drugs. If your husband is sober, which I doubt because it's not as if you follow him around all day (and you shouldn't), he's probably resenting his sobriety (just a guess). Kids are a big deal, big stress, even though cute.

Lol. It's okay!

So basically... this tells me that he has an external locus of control, which is why he thinks that all his problems are someone else's fault, and that he's using manipulation against you. I would be surprised if he were really sober... or you could be dealing with a dry drunk (sober but not in recovery). I can tell you that the addict in my life often skipped his appointments with his health professionals because it got in the way of his drugging -- basically sobriety got in the way of his addiction. I didn't find out this was happening until he had been doing it for years. I mean, he was a very, very good liar. After I found out about the lies, I often wished I had sarcastically said, "... Aaand the Oscar goes to..." every time he opened his mouth; if only doing so would have actually been safe.

I'm guilty of this too. He wanted X and said that X would make him happy. So I got him X. He wanted more and more, saying if he had Y and Z, he would be happy... BUT NOTHING made him happy. In retrospect, he was asking for those things to see how far I would jump. Classic narcissistic behavior. Now, I' not saying that your husband is a narcissist, I'm saying that addiction is selfish. The addict in my life kept asking for more and more; I'm sure it would have ended with: But I'll be happy if you only jumped off this cliff!

Just remember:
You didn't cause it.
You can't change it.
You can't control it.
Also... don't let it consume you.

Wonder why he didn't stay with the old sponsor? Maybe the old sponsor was telling him things he didn't like to hear.

Lol. Sorry but this made me laugh. Yeah. Heard this one too. Everything is someone else's fault. Oh dear.

This is abuse. There are stages.
1) The love-bomb stage. They are super nice to you, caring, etc... the perfect spouse. This is to hook you like a fish on a line.
2) The abuser plays the victim. They're hurt. They're sick. Other people are mean to them, abusive towards them... could be their ex, their boss, their mom, whatever, other people suck... except you, you are wonderful and can save them from tornadoes. You have empathy, so you attach.
3) Now that you're dangling from that fishing line, they want to make sure that hook is really in you, so they try to see how far you can jump. If they say jump, you jump. If they want a new car to be happy, you buy them a new car... etc. They want a baby. You make a baby for them... etc.
4) Now this is where it gets complicated. The abusive person actually hates themselves. I mean, this is why some of them commit the hideous crime of trying to kill themselves slowly... with drugs, drink, some other addiction. They hate themselves and their lives so much, they are in so much pain (psychologically or legitimately, although they won't see a doctor for it) that self-annihilation is, they think, the only option. Now that you've proven that you love them enough to jump when they say jump, they hate you. They hate you because you love them. They also don't believe you. They won't believe they deserve love. So they make you jump further. There might be a cliff somewhere on their list -- watch out.
5) You're sane. So you start complaining. If you don't start complaining, your body starts to complain by feeling sick, actually becoming sick, even chronically sick. Because you are complaining, the abuser starts to gaslight you. No, there's not really a hook stuck in your lip, you're just a complaining burden making their life difficult -- this is what they tell you. No, you aren't suffocating because you're not being pulled out of the water -- another thing they tell you. I've had a shrink tell me that my addict/abuser enjoyed creating drama because he grew up in an abusive household, and he was comfortable with that level of stress. In fact, anything too calm made him feel unsafe because it was like "the calm before someone explodes... or has a suicide attempt... or (insert other unnecessary human drama)".
6) If you get through this, you now realize that you are dealing with someone so sick that they are potentially unsafe to you. They need psychological intervention from someone who can recognize cluster B personality disorders. You need to GET AWAY from them.

Victim --> Dead Space --> Rescuer --> Build Up --> Abuse/Violence

NEVER go to couples counseling with a gaslighter. NEVER do it. I tried doing it and it trapped me in the relationship for longer than was good for either of us. It allowed him to keep drugging, and me to keep "seeing things from his point of view to keep the relationship together". The gaslighter is a manipulator... and they will (they WILL) manipulate the counselor. Manipulation is lying. If you are dealing with a liar, and you go to counseling together, you are going to be the only one telling the truth in the sessions. This is terrible because it means you bare your soul and then they act innocent, but when you get home, they have everything you said in the session to use against you. Counseling allows an abuser to learn "human behaviors" to make you look crazy and them "sane" in public. People who are abusive need a counselor who KNOWS that they person is abusive... and pretty much zero abusers are going to walk into a session and say, "I'm an abusive lair, help me tell the truth and stop manipulating people."

"Go f-yourself" was also my ex's favorite thing to say to me... usually after a couples counseling session, where he had played innocent and I had talked about my feelings.

You are NOT confused. Do not confuse addiction with abuse. They are two separate things and while families of addicts do put up with a lot of abuse, I think you have to see the situation for what it is. You are being abused. You feel it. Don't doubt your gut feelings! It doesn't matter what the cause of his bad behavior towards you is, the point is, his behavior is bad.

I really feel that you are dealing with a narcissist here. People applaud his success story. So if you try to talk about what he does to you or the kids, no one believes you because he's a "success" or a "nice guy". He wears a mask in public, but acts abysmally towards his family. You were with him long enough to see the mask fall off. He just couldn't keep up the act.

Please be careful. Please read some of the sticky's because there is information about abuse on SR. Keep posting and stay strong.

From here I would: 1) contact a lawyer, 2) secure my finances, 3) talk to people I can trust, 4) don't tell him your plans to do this... because he will try to stop you. He didn't say he wants to work on the relationship because he wants to "work on the relationship". He's threatened because his relationship falling apart affects the way other people see him (he doesn't care about your opinion of him, he just cares about other people). Be prepared for him to conduct a smear campaign against you. I'm sorry this is happening to you. Also, you don't have to take any of my advice, I won't judge you no matter what you do because leaving is dangerous (if that is what you want to do).

OpheliaKatz

Victim --> Dead Space --> Rescuer --> Build Up --> Abuse/Violence

There are varieties of this "triangle", that usually remove "dead space" and "rescuer". I'm not explaining it right though.

Maudcat

Hi, darthsnukums.
Welcome to SR.
Well, if your spouse isn’t drinking or drugging, then he is seriously ill.
Agree that the environment doesn’t sound safe.
Take good care.

darthsnukums

Thank you for your reply and insight.

Thanks. I enjoy writing, but many do not approve of my dark humour and addition of sarcasm to troubling topics. Tends to get me in more trouble than anything else :P

That was a good question about the drugs. As far as I know.... no. BUT, I don't go searching his stuff or his phone, or anything like that. I never encountered any evidence in my normal household day-to-day activities over the years. He has always been really against taking ANYTHING. Saying he shouldn't because he was worried about becoming hooked on them, or because of possible side effects. Wouldn't even take T3s.

BUT... after leaving, family gave me a lift back in town to run errands for the babies. Luck was not on my side that day. When going to schedule Dr checkups for the little ones, I was getting back in the car and saw AH going into the doctor's office. Later than day I had to go to the drugstore to find something for the baby and you know who's car was there. I didn't bother going in and just left to try a different store (thankfully, he never saw me). So if he wasn't taking anything then, he could be now.

amy55

Hey Snukums,

I joined this forum back in 8/2011. I didn't start in the friends and family section, I started in the newcomers section. I'm an RA.

My marriage was horrible, and I just plain didn't know how to deal with it, and I turned to alcohol. So after being divorced for almost 2 years, I knew I needed to learn how to handle things, without the alcohol.

I wandered around this forum and I started to read family and friends, and I just knew that I felt like I was at home here. There were so many people dealing with the same things that I was dealing with, and I was learning so much about how to deal with stressful situations. I think I owe this section of the forum my life.

Anyway, my ex was/is an alcoholic. Thing is, it wasn't his alcoholism that I was dealing with. It was his abuse that I was dealing with. You do not have to be an alcoholic to be abusive, and you are not abusive because you are an alcoholic. They are two separate things. So, I wouldn't blame his behavior on his drinking. Usually the personality is always there, it just takes awhile to show. They need to know that they have you first before they really start that. You may see some red flags prior to that, but their behavior really explodes with things like moving away from family (where you may feel somewhat isolated), having a baby (you are taking attention away from them), if you try to get a job (they may feel that if you have money that you may leave them), etc... it can be many things and all things.

Him punching the walls and his rages, and following you from room to room and blocking your exit............ mine did that also. I ended up at a DV shelter once, and a hospital once, it actually should have been 2 times for the hospital, but I was afraid he would lose his job.

I'm really happy that you left. It could have gotten a lot worse.

Many hugs to you and your children

amy

Done4today

Are you sure he is sober?

If so, he needs mental health evaluation.

Good luck

Ileana

Seems to me to be a classic case of using alcohol to self medicate mental health issue. Bi-polar maybe? You and the children need to be safe, that is number one. Ask him to have a mental health evaluation. If he won't go- then you've gotta get out.

Bekindalways

Welcome Darksnukums and so sorry you are here.

I haven't been in your situation so will just offer moral support.

Take care of yourself and babies and let us know how you get on!

darthsnukums

Oh man. I wrote a long response, and SR ate it !#@$#@

I'm glad you found my writing funny. I try to add humour to help deal with troubling or messed up situations. Not many appreciate the exact art and subtle science of mocking the horrific :P

The blame-game is so bizarre, it's surreal. One time he blamed me for a mistake he made with agreeing to work with a plumber (re: scope of work and cost), because he can't understand what's going on and make a decision unless everything is written down in front of him. When I asked him why he didn't take notes, he gave me this blank look. Then blamed me because I should have KNOWN that he would have needed the notes written for him and I should have helped. I was like "DUDE!...I wasn't even in the ROOM with you guys. You wanted me out of the way because YOU wanted to call the shots on what work was going to be done without having to 'ask my wife for permission'!"

He IS going to all of the counselling appointments ... unless the dope man now charges credit cards and provides receipts for insurance claims (hey - it *could* happen). If he does anything else while he's out, I can never know for sure. The last time he brought me to a counselling session for support and tried to blame me for something, I caught him in a lie so badly, even the psychologist was stunned. So yeah, I don't really go with him anymore :P

I will give him a pass on the new sponsor thing. I don't want to go into detail as you never know who is reading, but let's just say conflict of interest arose which wasn't AH's fault. Doesn't give him a pass for ditching the next sponsor, though (for calling him out on something).

Don't know about narcissism despite everything he's done and said... though Borderline is pretty spot on. Doesn't make a difference on my end, though. Still cluster B. Still more than I can deal with. Still dangerous. Other than than insignificant detail, I agree with every point you made and will take them all seriously.

Ah yes, the marriage counselling. I don't think I have to worry about that. I agreed only on the terms that HE find people, pending my approval. He gave me a list and recommended #1, as that was HIS counsellor. NO conflict of interest there *sarcasm meter explodes*. So I call and say I understand about confidentiality, but please listen to me. I tell them about the situation, controlling, emotionally manipulative, verbally abusive, escalating violent behaviour, how he wants us to work it out and how I am afraid of what will happen once he's confronted with his ****** behaviour. And my only reason to do it would be so they know what's happening to help HIM. They said they understand what I am saying, and to have him call them and book the appointment. I let my family know so he can never be alone with me and they are aware of everything.

When I next speak with him about counselling, his eyes bug out and he BEGS me to pick someone else, as the others would be 'better' (Oh yeah, they SO told him I called - but probably not the details of what I said). Then when I next see him and pull out the list, his eyes bug out and he stammers about needing to work on himself first, and then going with me once he is 'done' with counselling and then I can say whatever I need to say. I just said "Okay, I understand"

I THINK he thought I meant "I understand that this has been SO HARD for you and EMOTIONAL and you are such the victim and SO wounded... so you take all the time you need and I'll wait with my life in limbo until you decide if/when you want me back"..... When I meant "I understand that you don't really want to fix this, you are either in denial or think I am, and I'm happy with letting you think you have pulled the wool over my eyes because I just want to keep things cool right now". I guess he got super paranoid and thought that I called everyone on the list or something - I don't know. Whatever.

I just hope I haven't offended anyone with anything I've said. I totally get how hard it is to leave. I couldn't even think of leaving until I recovered from the delivery. I was sooo sick and weak for a long time and needed to make sure I was fully healed and strong just in case... leaving wasn't easy. I was lucky that it was. And I am blessed to have a supportive family. We're weird - sooo weird - but we're there for each other. And I feel sad that there are so many people who don't have that. And I'm really upset for what could have been, what I think SHOULD have been.... but I can't gamble the health and happiness of my little ones to try and chase something that was probably nothing more than a fantasy. I'd rather - as you joked in another thread - be alone knitting sweaters for cats.

amy55

Hey snukums, you do know that it is really hard to knit sweaters for cats !!!! They're always playing with that ball of yarn.... Thanks for the laugh.

You sound just like I did, when I had enough of it already. It was like I had to make things humorous because it was just not reality. It was so far from reality. I felt like I lived on the "funny farm". Everything is good one day, everything just sucks the next day, or the next week or month, or longer, then it was OK again.

It's funny that you brought up Borderline PD, I didn't want to, even though I am 99% convinced my ex has BPD, it was all of the things that he didn't like, and I tried to change them, and once I did, I was wrong for doing that also, because he liked it the way it was, blah, blah, blah. I think some people have a war that is going on inside their own head and they are just looking for someone to take it out on. I know, I used to get involved in my ex'es imaginary wars, I think sometimes it's hard not to since they seem to be attacking you, but I started to stay out of them, and I watched him go to war with himself. It was quite amusing to watch him fight with himself.

My advise to you, is just to let it all out. Get it all out of your head.

((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))
amy

Soulwars

Hello Darthsnukums. This is my total story right now, except that yours seems to have a hell that is really really obvious. I have been battling the same type of demons for almost 25 years. However, my hell has been much sneakier. He is always the victim. Everything does get twisted around to be my fault, to the point where I have driven my sister crazy doing reality check after reality check. Is this real? Is this what's happening? Is it me? Maybe if I try something new.....?
I finally left, and now I am thinking of returning, as he's on an upswing. Reading your post made me re-think my path!! I think I would be better off staying where I am. The stalking during arguments, where you can't get away from the anger; the rages; the constant flip-flopping of where you stand with him, etc.
I have also been shaking my head for years, as he's not the usual alcoholic. I'm not saying he isn't at least dependent, but even when he's not drinking, it's crazy-making. I tell my sister all the time I have trauma-brain. It's like I have two brains. One is rational, and the other is absolutely not. Even now, I keep swinging back and forth wondering if I should go back or not. It's not because I want to be with him, but I miss my kids. They live with him, and I am worried about them. They are adults (20 and 21) but they don't know what they're up against. He is your classic "put you on a pedestal and then devalue and discard". I'm way up on top of the pedestal (beautiful, amazing, etc) or I deserve to be abandoned (for weekends of partying out of town) or simply treated with a sort of cold anger. And it is always my fault.

I have never been able to understand it, as I really couldn't see how the alcohol was making him behave that way when he wasn't constantly drinking. But then I read about narcissism.

I saw the "cluster B" references. He is a narcissist with some borderline mixed in (victim, victim, victim). As it is now sort of being considered a mood disorder, it makes sense he would drink to combat the extremes of emotion. He needs my emotions to regulate his own, and will do whatever reality shifting he can to get what he needs. AA wouldn't work for him, as it's not just the drinking that's the problem.
However, Alanon has been very helpful to me. The same principles apply. Codependancy is still the big issue I have. I have to work on my boundaries!

Good luck with your situation!!

OpheliaKatz

I enjoy dark humor, because what else can you do? Cry? It's good to cry, but after a while you start cracking jokes about sadness.

Probably was always taking them. Regardless of that, his abusive behavior is probably something that will still be there after he becomes sober. It's one of those cases where it's not the drink, it's him.

NYCDoglvr

Very well put. I've known newly sober people who were good, kind (but damaged) people and people I cross the street to avoid who don't have an alcohol problem. My heart goes out to you. We all tend to believe people we love and sometimes it takes several tries to leave. A big hug

Sasha1972

I don't have much to add to all the good counsel you've been given. Your story is very familiar to me too.

A couple of thoughts:

1. Someone mentioned "external locus of control" earlier on in this thread, and that is very apt indeed. If your husband can't say "I screwed up X, it is my fault and my responsibility and I am sorry ...", that's pretty bad.

2. Road rage and punching furniture is also pretty bad. That stuff escalates. BTDT.

3. Your comment about your husband expecting you to know what he is thinking, and/or telling you what you're thinking reminds me of some of the aha! moments with my alcoholic now-ex.

There were a series of weird incidents in which either he either seemed to think that I was inside his head and if he had thought or imagined or considered something, I must have thought it too; or where he would tell me what I was thinking or feeling, based on nothing but his own certainty that I was thinking or feeling it.

I realized later that what connected the two types of incident was the absence of individuation and boundaries of the self. Ex literally did not/does not know where he stops and other people start. He somehow missed the developmental milestone where infants realize that they are distinct individuals who are separate from other individuals. He believes the entire universe is in his mind and his mind is the entire universe - so what he thinks is true must therefore be true.

His own mother was a narcissistic disaster (and also alcoholic) who did everything she could to discourage the development of healthy boundaries and selves in her children, so it's not surprising that ex is replicating this, but it's still destructive and creepy. Perhaps something similar with your husband? (Not that analyzing something is the same as justifying or excusing it, of course).

OpheliaKatz

My ex was like this 100%. I think we're all talking about the same type of person here. Narcissists are actually empty people, empty inside. They try to fill themselves up with you (or anyone will do, as long as it is someone they think is "worth it"). My ex also thought that the entire universe was inside his mind... what he thinks is true, therefore everyone else is wrong... etc. His mother also discouraged healthy boundaries. His father was an alcoholic.

I used to hate the saying "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree", because I was obsessed with the idea that everyone should have agency. Now I think that the universe does not care about what anyone wants to do, and we are limited by our biology and mortality.

Unless a person seeks help for their family-of-origin trauma and legitimately goes into "recovery" for it, they end up replicating patterns from their family-of-origin. It is extraordinarily difficult to change set behaviors as an adult. It is even harder when those behaviors were formed as a child.

If I've learned anything from my ex, who was a very damaged person, it's that I can see the humanity in anyone. Even a thief or a murder (or less dramatically, a pool-pee-er) can get my empathy -- I can understand why they did what they did. This doesn't mean that they should get my sympathy. Life is too short for that.

darthsnukums

Hi Amy.

Thank you for sharing this with me. After reading your post, I realised that I was making the assumption that alcoholic = abusive person. Although the two can be in the same person, it doesn't mean the two things are linked and always together. Like, I could say "I'm a woman, and redheaded"... but that doesn't mean that women are all redheaded, or that redheads are only women. Definitely a large error on my part, and I apologise if I offended anyone with my ignorance.

Actually, that fact is making me question a lot of things regarding my perceptions and memories of some past events.

darthsnukums

You think it's hard knitting sweaters for cats? Try getting them into said sweater when it's done!

In case you've never tried/witnessed it, they extend and lock out the joints on their limbs and flop over completely rigid. They also seem to manipulate gravity, making themselves weigh approximately 2000lbs, and make it impossible for you to get the sweater on them.

Yeah, I've witnessed the 'internal war'. He would be 'offended' by someone. Often some transgression involving incorrect tone, or looking into some deep meaning of a really clear comment (such as 'okay'), followed by him walking around and muttering under his breath, reliving the encounter over and over and adding in what he *should* have said, what he *wanted* to say. Asking me what I thought of the exchange (and getting upset at my making him feel bad because my interpretation of the event was far more benign than how he interpreted and responded to it).