Hawkeye13

I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like they will try to establish you aren't reliable / fit due to your active addiction.

If he has lots of documentation of that, perhaps this could be a problem and negatively impact your case.
The obvious argument is that the alcoholism is harmful to expose the child to,
and may be dangerous in that it impairs decision making when in active addiction.

There is so much variation in law, region, etc. it would be impossible to speculate,
but the one common thread I've seen on these pages for years
is to get legal support, especially if facing someone with legal support.
The link below may shed some light on your husband's perspective:

How to Get Sole Custody When Your Ex Is an Alcoholic | LegalZoom Legal Info

Of course, the first thing a lawyer will tell you is to do is exactly what you are doing--
get sober and document the program and steps you are taking to show
you are serious about your recovery.

No matter what happens, that's a win for both you and your child.

I wish you a positive outcome with this--both your own recovery and that of your family.

Babescake

Thank you Hawkeye. I'm meeting a lawyer next week, one committed to collaboration and mediation. He isn't completely on board with that route because if we don't agree it starts all over.

However, his lawyer (one my parents suggested for me, oh the coincidences), is harping on collaboration yet is still advising full legal custody? Ugh, I know this is happening and in many of your states it is needed and wanted. I'm just talking about the other end. FYI, I DO NOT have a codie for a spouse. If anything, he adds to the addiction and sabotage. I hurt him drinking, he hurts right back over and over. It is a toxic cycle. But yet I feel guilty because I caused it. I deserve it.

Sasha1972

Well, that's a pretty big exception.

My suggestion, which may come across as harsh, is to try to stop thinking of this situation in terms of what your rights are or what you have a right to expect. Children have rights to safety, support and love from their parents. We parents do not have rights to our kids.

At the moment, your ability to provide safety, support and love has been brought into question by your alcoholism. I commend you for facing this reality and forming the intention to do something about it. But speaking as the former spouse of an alcoholic, with whom I have a child, it will take lots and lots of time before your ex will trust that you can keep your child safe. Probably much more time than you think is reasonable. But your idea of reasonable and your ex's idea of reasonable are very far apart - not that he's right and you're wrong, just that you're bringing your very different experiences to the situation.

I don't think there is any substitute for time. Your ex will be waiting to see if you carry through on your commitments to seek recovery, and there is no way you can speed that up.

My ex is an alcoholic and he thinks that I am unreasonable for saying that I will only let our daughter see him with supervision and SoberLink monitoring. I am attempting to achieve agreement on a "road map" to shared parenting, setting out timelines (after so many weeks of successful compliance with monitoring and supervision, we can start unsupervised visits, after so many more weeks, we can extend the duration of the visits, etc). He HATES this and sees it as me being demanding and controlling. I see it as me needing proof that he is able to control his drinking around our daughter. It's not about wanting to cut him out of her life, it's about having been burned repeatedly by his promises to get help and stop drinking, to the point where he has no credibility and the only thing that will change my opinion is the evidence of time.

Can you work out a similar road map - e.g. an agreement that after six months you will revisit the question of legal custody, with "ongoing continuous disclosure" of your participation in a recovery program? or revisiting the requirement of monitoring/supervision in four months' time?

FeelingGreat

Hi Babes, you don't say how reasonable your H is capable of being. I know he's had his confidence in you rocked by events, but you having input into your child's education, housing and other major decisions doesn't put your DS in danger at all. You say you have a contribution to make, and I believe you.

I'll repeat what the others have said and what you really know in your heart; a great deal, including your DS's happiness, depends on you staying sober and never relapsing. I know it can be a struggle, but I also know how to win it because I am now over 5 years sober. Like you, I developed dependency later in life, and gradually, and I think this type of A has a better chance of sobriety, given the motivation.

PM me if you want more detail on beating the cravings. If you're sober long enough they will go away.

May I suggest your no.2 priority will be to get moving? I'm not sure how it goes where you live, but could you join a walking or exercising group so you meet others and start getting fitter?

Think of this as the battle of your life against depression and alcohol. I'm sure your H and DS will regain confidence in you gradually if you show how committed you are.

AnvilheadII

hardest time of my life.....my daughter was 3, her dad and i had split a year or so before. i hooked up with true "bad boy" and got more into drugs than into care for my daughter. i remember packing her little lunch box with a mustard sandwich and water in her thermos....to pre-school.

things went really wrong and i came home one day to an eviction notice on the apartment door. my bf hadn't made it home yet. i looked around the place and realized i had FAILED my daughter, as i had NOWHERE for her to live now. she was at her dad's at the time.

in tears, i called her dad, and while i didn't share ALL the details, and i told him i'm kind of in between housing assignments and could he keep the baby while i got things figured out?

i had no idea how long it would TAKE me to get things figured out.....my life was a mess....but i knew i was not capable of taking care of my baby girl. i KNEW that and did what was best for HER.

Wheelsup

By way of background about me so you can put my comments in context ... I’ve been married 20 years and have four kids. My husband is an active alcoholic (as in he was drinking 17 beers a day sometimes). Over the past few years, he’s been spiraling downward and I am preparing to tell him that we need to formally separate (most likely in January). With that out of the way ...

You really absolutely need a lawyer to look out for your interests, especially given your depression and alcoholism. Giving up sole legal and physical custody is a very big deal and you absolutely should NOT do it without consulting a lawyer. You may inadvertently put yourself in a position where your husband can deny you access to your child — whether you are sober and in recovery or not. My understanding is that it is extremely difficult to change an agreement once it is set...so if you give up physical and legal custody now, there may be no going back without tons of money and time. Do not assume you can do so and, if you were told that by his lawyer, you need to know that’s a negotiating tactic.

It’s good you recognize you have a problem and are seeking help. I hope that you continue to do so. I would recommend, instead of giving up physical and legal custody, that you make physical custody contingent on your sobriety and continued treatment and work out the details of what that means as part of your separation/divorce agreement. You can also insist that you retain physical custody on paper - but not utilize it while you are seeking treatment. So - there are a lot of less extreme options out there that your lawyer can help you out with.

I am praying that this is what my husband will do. His idea of treatment is doing it his way so I have very strong doubts he’ll do anything. I actually suspect he’s going to react very badly. Anyhow, he loves the kids and the kids love him. I don’t want to block his access to them - just ensure he’s sober when he sees them and when he’s driving.

I am actually considering requesting sole legal custody as my children have significant amounts of money in their college accounts and, if his addiction spirals further downward, I don’t want him to have access to the money as the kids legal guardian. And, if something terrible ever happens medically, I don’t think he’d be capable of making good decisions drunk, dry drunk, or hungover.

This is my two cents anyway. I wish you the best as you work on your sobriety and negotiate your way forward with your child and husband.

Ladybird579

What is everyone's advice on the joint legal custody though?

Honestly? I think you should let your ex husband have sole custody. Not because you are a bad mother or because you do not do your best for your child but because alcoholism is progressive and at this moment in time you and your ex have no way of knowing if you can recover and stay recovered. Your child needs stability. Despite you best intentions you are not stable at this moment in time. Things can be revisited if you recover and stay sober.

You say:- I haven't done anything that takes away from advocating for my son's best interest beyond my alcoholism

Your alcoholism is not a minor thing. It effects how you act, think and perceive things. It effects your reliablity as a person and parent and your moods and ultimately it will change your personality and ruin your health. That one statement alone suggests to me you are still in denial of how much of a problem you have so I'd say let you ex have your child at this moment in time. I speak from the other side of the fence. My exah had my then 15 year old boys living with him. It lasted 6 months and the fall out 3 years on is still ongoing. He drank more once I was out the way and they were left to their own devices. They nearly ended up in care but I was able to retrieve them quickly. 3 years on exah has never once wanted any input into decisions about their lives and currently doesn't even know where we live. He is terminally ill cos of his drinking despite going to residential rehab 5 times.

Hawkeye13

It's great you've got the lawyer lined up.
The "road map" idea Sasha shared, of increasing contact with ongoing
evidence of sobriety and recovery--whatever that needs to be, Soberlink, etc.
seems like a fair middle ground which puts children's interests first.

I'd like to preface this by saying I am also a recovered alcoholic, so I get
how hard it is to quit, take the weight off, deal with the life-long depression
and underlying pain that led to the drinking in the first place.
I empathize and I support you in your journey.

However, I also grew up with an alcoholic mother, and it is progressive,
and though I know she loved me, her ability to care for me and make good decisions
really did deteriorate greatly over time, and much more rapidly
as her addiction got worse.

I was putting her to bed when she passed out before I was 10.
I was calling in sick to work for her, getting much of my own food cooked,
listening to her financial worries most of my childhood (had a baby ulcer
by 13) and just missed getting killed in a drunk-driving accident she had
when she asked if I wanted to "ride" with her when she went to get more
booze one weekend.

Throughout most of this time, she held a job, and other people knew little
about our home life.
When she was sober, which was a fair bit of time for many years,
she was loving, did fun things, and worked hard and cared deeply
for my brother and my happiness. Then she'd drink and her anger
depression and rages got worse and worse--
I'm skipping over the bad stuff for the moment, as it isn't relevant to the point
which is that it is impossible to be the stable, predictable parent kids really
need while in active addiction. It just isn't possible in the long-term.

My mother was in denial for years over how her drinking and decision-making was getting worse.
It creeps up, and "normalizes" unless someone
puts a stop to it, which it sounds like your husband is now doing.


It sounds like you and your husband had an agreement that you would not
drink in front of the children, which was something that precipitated his
wanting a divorce, correct? This is what I mean.
You did something that 3 months or 6 months ago you would have
been able to control and not done because your disease is progressing.

That happened to me also when I started drinking earlier and earlier in the day
and drinking way past the limits my husband and I agreed on.
I was progressing in the disease, and losing the perspective and ability
to recognize what was best for our family and my job.
The reality check for me was also the threat of divorce and that
I finally saw drinking was beginning to impact my work performance.
The good news is when I quit and joined a crossfit and really jumped
into recovery, I lost 30 pounds and over time, my husband began
to trust both me and my recovery again.
We don't have kids, but we have grown closer and love each more
since getting through this tough time, and even though I had no
idea when I quit if I was going to save my marriage or not,
I quit for me, and my future, and I haven't regretted that one minute
and neither will you.
You will be able to be the safe, trustworthy, loving parent 24/7 that you
are inside but addiction is blocking at times.

In the mediation, perhaps you could say you don't wish to give up legal custody
or even permanent physical custody, but make a plan like Sasha says and work
it and make it stick.

You have huge incentive, and as your sobriety increases, life feels better and better
and then the next step is easier.
I combined exercise, diet, some therapy, and doing creative, fun things for myself
as part of my recovery.
I ate / eat quality food, take vitamins, exercise daily, and journal as needed.
All of these things really have helped me heal and grow as a person.
If my marriage hadn't survived, which is what I expected,
I would have been OK anyway and so will you.

Your husband is hurt, upset, angry and trying to protect the kids.
Show him real recovery and remorse as you are doing,
and work at getting better, and you may be surprised at
how much you can heal your relationship in terms of co-parenting.
That's great for kids and both of you

biminiblue

Awesome post, Hawk. Of course.

CentralOhioDad

Here is my take: I am a Dad of a 7 year old, and will putting a retainer with a lawyer next week (hardest damn thing I've ever had to do, and I hate it). My AW is a WONDERFUL mother to our son (most of the time) between the hours of 6AM and 7PM - after that the alcohol starts to kick in.

Her 'emotional IQ" is better than mine when dealing with a 7 year old, I admit that. B-U-T, and it's a big BUT - she can't function as a parent once she starts drinking. So, I'm going for 100% physical custody and shared legal.

So, what's best for the child? Sober, available parents, that's what. What's best for the child with an alcoholic parent? As much time spent with the sober parent, IMHO.

I understand you say you are trying, but what are your actions, not words? We get tired of the promises, and the 'I will's, and such - we want to see you actually DO SOMETHING positive. Also, with being depressed and getting more depressed - how much can you fully participate in your child's life when you are battling that as well?

I commend you for coming here and posting, and I really really hope that you can get things turned around, THAT is what is best for the child. Until then, take positive actions.

Blessings,
COD

Nata1980

From the other side:

Alcoholics and addicts can be unreliable, sober or not.

I comend you for coming down here.

Main thing, don’t take it personally.

I was reluctant to request full legal custody; but ended up doing so per my lawyer’s suggestion. XAH is a decent father when sober, and DS loves him unconditionally. My lawyer asked me whether I want to try to locate addicted parent if legal or educational decisions were to be made. At the time the answer was abolutely not, because addiction was active and he was in a downward spiral. And mentioned that parenting order protects the child , if XAH sobers up and there is no need for supervised visitation, we can go to unsupervised.

So I had “willing to provide visitation supervised or not, as mother sees fit” written in.

XAH is sober and I am letting him see DS without supervision. Full legal custody turned out to be a good decision; XAH chose to move 300 miles away so it would be annoying to have to mail things every time signatures are needed (DS has special educational needs)

Being humble and taking an interest in your child’s life and participating is always a winning approach, it is not about your rights at this light, it is about what is the best for the child. You will have to earn trust back, it is a process, probably going to take as long or longer it took to lose it. Kind a like losing weight.

XAH actually had an opportunity to revise a parenting order, but did not even take it

Good luck, you can get through this

Carol Star

Work on what you can change- you. Meeting makers make it. Your son should be with someone sober. Be teachable.

Mango blast

Alcoholism, depression and hormone imbalances are each serious health issues that intertwine and are not quick or easy to solve.

Add in abuse of any kind... emotional, physical, verbal... and there is even more support needed.

Starting with AA is a solid, good, heathy plan. From there and through the support of others who've been through this, you'll be able to gain all the support you need in all these areas.

One day at a time.

Awareness, Acceptance, Action.

DontRemember

During my divorce,over 15yrs ago, I went for full physical and legal. I hadn't started drinking as an alcoholic yet,but my daughters mother was a pill addict and would pass out in the middle of the day while watching our 4yr old. I had already mentally checked out of my marriage due to multiple infidelities and she would always get temp custody during divorce hearings because she was a female(no offense ladies). After a very half assed rehab 'attempt' on her part to try and salvage the lifestyle I was living(the door that was closed). I kicked her out and set her up in an a nice apartment for two months. We were done as a married couple,but I wanted to see how she acted towards the court orders against her. Long story short; she tried to kidnap my daughter and take her cross country. She was an irrational person sober and addicted. I did what I had to for my child's best interest and got everything I asked for. I didn't want to deal with the 'crazy' that came with my exw having a say in any matter. This 3-5yr process sure amplified my drinking though.


Edit: I'm a recovering alcoholic myself now. I've seen both sides of this and what it does to everyone close to it.

Babescake

I do appreciate the responses. I get and understand them all too. Concerning legal custody, just because someone has an addiction doesn't mean that the mental, medical, and legal needs of their child is displaced. I do not want my husband to do whatever he wants, as I am the one that provides stability the majority of the time beyond my addiction. What if that is the case? I know I am compromised, but I will be living with my parents who my husband totally trusts. However, he does not prioritize schoolwork, structure and so forth. But because I have a disease he gets the power. There has to be some compromising because he cannot be a single parent for the little things. Judge me all you want, but him alone as a parent is detrimental. Of course, in this scenario, I would be sober, and I have mentioned that I am willing to test, etc.

Hawkeye13

When you say you "would be sober" does that mean you aren't yet?

Because that is the single most powerful thing you can do to get shared custody and to begin the process of healing.

OpheliaKatz

Here's my very blunt response. First: You're an alcoholic. Would you allow your child to spend time with a teacher, a nanny, or other caretaker who is an alcoholic and not already in recovery? If you knew there was a risk that the alcoholic *might* relapse and be unreliable, would you leave your child with them? I would not. You have to think of the rights of the child, not of the parents. If your husband were the one with the substance abuse problem, no matter how much he cares about his child, I would not let him look after the child either, because it's not your intentions that matter so much as your actions. I am sure you have the best intentions, but you have to act on them.

Second: stop focusing on how bad it makes YOU feel to not have custody rights because right now, the only thing you need to focus on, is your sobriety. Stop dwelling on shame and focus on your recovery. You can't be a caretaker for anyone else if you are not able to take care of yourself (and a promise that you "will" do it is not the same as being in recovery RIGHT NOW). Focus on your recovery, not on how much you or anyone else dislikes you, judges you, may or may not be trying to punish you... because I assure you that no matter how much of a jerk your husband may or may not have been, he does seem to be thinking of the welfare of your child.

Third: Any legal questions should be directed towards a lawyer. However, I really think you need to focus on your mental health and recovery FIRST and not get caught up in "legal" stuff. Going to court takes work, takes time, and will be a huge distraction IF you let it drag on and on and on... and it will impede your recovery and make it harder to reconnect with your husband and child later (even if you're reconnecting as a cooperative, friendly ex). It will take a long time to get their trust back. From what I've read, it seems as if your husband is very angry with you (I'm not excusing the abusive language he's used, I am just pointing out that his anger is going to affect things). I fear that if you are uncooperative now, you are going to alienate him further. I think he is more likely to cooperate in future if you are cooperative now. Do not make the situation escalate.

You need to start earning the trust of your family now (not after you contest custody). Do so by surrendering to the disease and the consequences. Let your higher power guide you.

Just my 2 cents. This advice may or may not suit you. Peace.

Mango blast

Babescake,

All it takes is once...

2 injured in Hall County crash; driver charged

EVERY alcoholic/addict in recovery that I've talked with in depth has shared there was ALWAYS another line they crossed with their addiction that they never, ever could have imagined happening.

I'm not one who typically says always, every or never... and yet, again and again this has been my experience of what I've encountered through my recovery of this Family Disease of Alcoholism.

My husband is a good man, a good father, a good friend... and yet the addiction to alcohol is stronger than anything else.

What I hear from you in this thread is similar to that of so many alcoholics who "want" recovery, yet haven't put the actions of recovery into play.

Recovery is SO MUCH MORE than not drinking for any certain length of time.

Babescake

I am doing AA and an addiction therapist, plus acupuncture. I started AA myself before the divorce announcement because I want recovery for myself.

Mango blast

Babescake,

As I look at your actions:

Posted on Dec. 15:

"I've had a problem for the last 6 years"

"It's progressed through the years"

"attempts at sobriety, but nothing sticking."

"I do have an addiction therapist... I need additional support so I'm going to AA Saturday."

"I think I can get better because I have to."

"My alcoholism is not well-known, nor is even my depression. I'm ashamed of both and I'm VERY private about both issues. I'd like to keep it that way as that is my choice medically I would think."



Posted today:

"I am doing AA and an addiction therapist, plus acupuncture."





Addiction is chronic and progressive. It lies to the person with this disease and everyone nearby.