At least DD has escaped . . .
 

I drop in and out of here very sporadically, but I needed to share this.

Bottom line is DD turned 17 not long ago and, after a run in with mom over mom's drinking, packed up and moved out. In our state, 17 year olds can move out and there isn't much a parent can do about it (though, oddly, you're still legally responsible for them).

I knew this might be coming - I'd even discussed some alternative living arrangements before all this with DD - some of her thoughts on the matter didn't sit well with me . . . and she wasn't thrilled with my options. So we never came to a conclusion that worked for both of us.

I wasn't particularly happy about the initial destination DD chose when she just up and left (I had been out of town on business) - I couldn't very well blame her for leaving though - and, after a few days, DD ended up at grandparent's house (AW's parents), she's still in school (and, miraculously, doing well grade wise).

It may not be the best of all possible worlds for her - Father in Law is a big alky - but the issues/dynamic are all different there for her.

I'd leave too, but for the youngest child (only 3 y.o.) . . . and that frustrates DD. She felt like *she* had to be the protector of her brother, felt that mom put him at risk (drinking and driving), and would get upset because (as she saw it) I did nothing (e.g., move out, take kids). It's easy to see the answer when you're 17, don't have the bills to pay, health insurance, etc. to keep yourself and the kids heads above water.

We talk and stay in touch and, I feel, have a good relationship still despite all of the above.

DD tells mom that she's not coming home unless and until she's been sober for a long time.

Her feelings - and she's right to have them - is that mom is choosing booze over having a relationship with her.

Anyway - its impossible to discuss these things with co-workers and even close friends.

I'm saddened that I don't get to see my daughter every day, but I'm proud of the young woman she's become and becoming.

M,
Wow, just wow!! What are you thinking dad????

I am so happy that dd 17 had enough courage to leave, but so sad that a 3 year old is under a drunks care. You are an adult and can take care of your own mental state, kids can not. In my mind this is abuse and you could have the baby taken from you, as you are allowing this to happen. That child should never be left alone with her. Dd is telling you she is driving drunk, and you are doing nothing to protect either of them ???

Please please think about what drunk mom is doing at home to her kids or not doing. Please don't let another child get raised in a crazy alcoholic home, they are deserving of so much more. You are an adult you are suppose to protect your children. I am sorry for being so upset reading this. Your complaint above is that dd left but you still are responsible for her. She is your child and you should be protecting her from a crazy person and you are not, thats why she left. And now you are leaving a baby alone with a drunk, that's abusive. I am just floored.

Please take responsibility for both your children. Dd goes from one alcoholic home to another, your daughter needs some help. What chance does this child have in life?? Please stop worrying about bills and health insurance. If your wife passes out, and burns down the house, or kills the kids in a drunk driving accident it won't matter any way.

Please seek out support for yourself and your kids. You are the only hope these two have in life.

I am a victim of physical abuse and forty years later I'm still going to therapy about it, partly to make sure that I don't act the same way towards my son the same way my abuser did.

I remember my abuser (my nanny) smacking me with her shoe because I didn't eat my sandwich. She told me if I told my parents what she did they would know then what a bad person I was. I believed her. Your 3YO might be encountering the same behavior from your wife.

When I got sick, she told me that I got sick on purpose just to make her life miserable. One time I was so afraid of her that I said I was OK even though I felt awful and I ended up with a 103 degree fever.

She used needles on me when I didn't look awake enough for breakfast. Needles were better. Bruises left marks. She also ripped up my stuffed animals on occasion just to make a point. She also gathered dead bees and would threaten to press the stingers against me.

But you know what, that wasn't the worst part. It was the constant, daily walking on eggshells that wore down. It was never knowing when I walked through the door who I was going to get, Dr. Jekyll or Ms. Hyde. It was knowing that the neighbors heard her screaming down the block and NOT ONE PERSON told my parents what was going on. When I got to high school, I signed up for every fricking after-school activity I could think of to get out of the house. I ended up with having several bouts of depression, with a couple suicidal ideation bouts built in there just for kicks. I told people of my fantasies of slitting my wrists and letting the blood seep into the hallway. My college required me to call the infirmary on a regular basis to assure them I was still alive. And I was LUCKY. My sister, who was subjected to even worse abuse, ended up turning to weed and alcohol.

I would rather die than subject my son to the same childhood. I would never ever want my son to go through what I went through. You have NO IDEA what you are setting up your children for if you don't leave that house. Your wife was arrested for a DUI in 2011 and yet you still have a three year old? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - perhaps she had a period of sobriety then. But you're with her now. And you have every intention of staying.

You talk about health insurance and bills as the reason that you stay with your wife. Let's forget the fact that you're letting a 3YO live with an alcoholic and are essentially teaching her that being drunk is normal. You are exposing your children to so much financial liability it makes my head spin. Just one lawsuit against your wife (if you're still married to her) could wipe you out.

Yes, a firm financial foundation IS a very good idea when you're raising children. But when your house is burning, do you say "But we put so much money down on the down payment? We can't leave!" No, you get out!

I wish you strength and fortitude in the days ahead. You're going to need it.

Hmmm . . . Dad's "thinking" that its better to keep a roof over his children's head, food in their stomachs, etc.

It would be nice to "stop worrying about bills and health insurance" . . . until you are put out on the sidewalk due to eviction, have the water turned off, the power shutoff, etc.

And, oh yeah, did I mention that children break bones, need mandatory vaccinations for school and sports? That's not to mention incurring that extra federal income tax penalty for not having health insurance?? And that's ON TOP of the bills for the several trips to rehab (and the IRS doesn't eff around when it comes to collecting taxes owed).

You don't like my choices, that's fine. To paraphrase Humphrey Bogart in "The Big Sleep":

I don't mind if you don't like my choices, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long long winter nights.

What I won't do is be J-U-D-G-E-D or guilted by you or anyone for them.

So much for this place being a place of support.

MCE Saint

What I won't do is be J-U-D-G-E-D or guilted by you or anyone for them.

Noone is judging you. If you feel guilty that is your feeling to own. Noone want so make you feel guilty here. Many of us have been where you are now and managed to get out. Some haven't. Some here are stuck in a circle of hoping for change that never comes and giving their alcoholic spouses one more chance for years and years while their children and they suffer. I was one of them. I did that but there are ALWAYS choices. I learnt that when I stuck with my exah for 20 years and we finally parted ways. I lost everything...and I do mean everything. My home, my income, my older kids who now hate me cos I never acted sooner and my pets. However we had a happy ending. Stuff works out. You can still work, pay bills, health insurance etc and have your children with you. Thousands do. I always had an excuse to stay until the reasons to leave became so glaring I couldn't ignore them anymore.

No judgement.
Nor do I think any was meant by earlier posting. Just concern.
Do what you have to, MCE.
It must be hard not to see your daughter as much as you would like.
Keep coming back.

i don't get the correlation between the suggestion that living with an active alcoholic AND a baby is a bad situation and that doing something about it means eviction.

as it is, your teenager got out the minute she could. that roof over her head and food in the fridge were not enough for her to tolerate another day with a dangerous drunk mom and a dad who won't take action.

it's sad, she felt she HAD to protect her little brother. that was never her job or her role. now a defenseless 3 year old has no protection. the drunk driving is so scary.....for her, for anyone in the car with her, for anyone she randomly plows into, injures or kills.

i appreciate you showed a spark of anger here......perhaps you can harness that towards your home situation.

I also don't understand why removing your children from life with an active late stage alcoholic equates to eviction. Does your wife pay the bills? Many of us have had to leave situations like yours, as single parents, with children in tow.

Living with one alcoholic parent and one codependent parent will cause HUGE and lifelong damage to a child. Just google ACOA. Good for your 17-year old daughter on getting out instead of accepting excuses.

Hi MCE,

I see that you have now posted 25 times. I'm sorry that I never saw any of your posts. I see that you are happy that your daughter found a way out, and that she is doing well in school.

I also see that you are worried about finances, and perhaps that is what is holding you back from also leaving, but you also have a 3 year old that you may be worrying about also thinking or knowing that if you did leave that your child may be in your wife's custody alone and not with your 17 year old to help out.

You mentioned that this is difficult to talk to with your co-workers and close friends. I can understand that, but sometimes you need to do this. You may never know who can be supportive to you.

Thank you for sharing with us, and if you ever need someone to talk to, well, I can listen, I may not be able to give you good advise, but I can listen.

I wanted to tell you something about me. I was afraid to talk to people about the things that I was dealing with, and I isolated myself. I felt like I had no one to talk to. I felt embarrassed with my life, and I didn't want to talk. I hid everything. When I finally started to open up to people, I found a way out and a better life.

(((((((((((hugs))))))))))
amy

MCE

Sorry you are going through this

If I had to guess, you are probably a breadwinner while your AW stays at home taking care of your 3 year old.

Two years ago I was faced with the fact that my "stay at home father" husband relapsed again, this time he got into hard drugs, stole money out of my accounts, and befriended an unemployed addict girlfriend 15 years my senior who came for "visits" while I was away on business trip.

So I drove him to rehab (from which he escaped later but that's another story) and pledged not to allow him near my child until he gets his life together.

He was a primary caregiver for years, my son (and my son has special needs so that throws another wrench into things) loves him unconditionally. And I did not fall out of love with him - my intention was to stay married till death do us part.

But. I left him. My son is a teen - so it is a different kind of challenge to find after school care for him (not a lot of afterschool care options for teens with special needs). My entire family is across the pond, and ex husbands family is zero help. But I did find care for him. I talked to my boss, explained the situation, got more of a flexible work arrangement (which may not be possible in your case - I completely understand). I have to be honest - I was completely terrified of the future and was considering going part time. Thought I would get fired.

1.5 years later my income is 30% over what I was earning then, I got promoted to a management position, and life is great. I realize that results may not be typical - but here I am.

Sorry I am so long-winded - but have no fear. You job now is to take care of you and your child - and that requires removing him from his mothers care that drives drunk.

We are here for you, and there is no judgement. 😊

A phrase or two that I find unsupportive:

1. Take responsibility. Far as I can tell, all I've done IS "take responsibility." I go to work every day (own my own business). I pay the bills (mortgage, utilities, food, etc.), I make sure to spend time with my children and to make sure they receive a good education (check homework, etc.). Built into the statement to "take responsibility" is that I haven't taken responsibility in the past - and to those I say "go **** yourself."

2. Regrets you'll have if "this or that" happens to your children while in the care of AW." A couple of points here. First, NO ONE here can guarantee my children won't die a horrible death, under sad circumstances whether I stay or go. If I stay, then POSSIBLY she might burn the house down and kill or seriously injure the children. If I go, then on the drive out of here, I POSSIBLY can be hit by a semi-tractor trailer. There is no guarantee of safety in this world for any of us. We can just understand the different risks and manage them - ALL of them - as best as possible.

Second, I think it's clear I have "regrets" or misgivings -- hence the Bogart quote. But I can't think of any PAST decision I've made that I'd make differently (if I had it all to do over again). Oh, to be sure, I wouldn't have married and had children had I *known* AW was an alcoholic -- that didn't manifest itself until later. But once it did, we had a child, a mortgage, etc.

I see posts here by boyfriends or girlfriends who struggle with not just the idea of leaving their Alky partner, but the logistics. Now factor in a marriage, children, and obligations. The difficulty factor in "leaving" just raised up about a hundred fold.

Third, sometimes life IS just a choice between bad option A (stay) and bad option B (leave). Then, you're trying to figure out which is the least bad of the two bad situations ---- and there are many ways to score bad (emotionally? financially?? etc.).

Evicted and destitute referred to ME and the children. Although, I'm the *primary* breadwinner, I'm not the sole breadwinner. AW works too (10 months a year) for a government entity. I am the owner of my own small, professional services business. In addition to being the owner of the business, I'm the receptionist, secretary, accountant, and PR department. That is: the business is me - just me.

On an annual basis, my business pays for most of the household expenses. Cash flow, however, can be choppy - and AWs job works smooth out those dips in revenue. Picture how your mortgage company would feel if you could only make 1/2 your mortgage payment for 8 months, and then in the last four months you can pay the arrearage, plus be current amount due, and, if its a great year, maybe a month or two ahead. Things like this play into credit score, etc. too. -- which goes into where you can rent, etc.

It's not quite THAT extreme, but it's not far off -- and when you hear what people earn on an annual basis, you should be aware that not all of that comes in the form of a steady stream of equal-sized paychecks.

And, then there are the taxes. All of that which is taken out most of your paychecks before you get them must be taken "off the top" when a client pays me.

Our family health insurance comes through AWs employer and we take advantage of her employer's Flexible Spending Accounts for childcare, etc.

Now, eliminate AWs income and benefits (if divorce) and do the calculation - PLUS make me the sole child care giver for the 3 year old while running (entirely on my own) said business. Because IF I go that route, I've got to throw every piece of ammunition in a divorce at AW . . . it'll be limited visits with 3 year old until she's sober, AA meetings for her, monitoring, etc.

Oh it might be nice to be an employee of someone else, but, then again, I am a "person of a certain age" (let's just say over 55) and so options are very, very limited (if available at all). AW is 14 years my junior.

What you hear in my words is not GUILT, but a sense of being TRAPPED.

Oh, and did I mention that there still IS a societal default in favor of the mother/woman in divorces?? Especially when it comes to young children?? (under the age of 5?)

Every time it looks like financially I might be able to squeak by if I left, fought for the youngest child, and did the divorce thing --- well, there's something there to soak up the money. The IRS finds some back tax it thinks I owe, the transmission goes out on a vehicle used to get to/from work. Something.

I didn't come here seeking advice. I didn't ask anyone any questions. I came here to express my feelings.

And that feeling is: DD leaving the house is a very, very bittersweet experience.

MCE Saint

Yep. I get it.
I don’t live with an alcohol dependent person, in that he/she is not in the same house as I am.
But I see my alcohol addicted sib almost every day because he lives with my mother in her house, and I am one of her caregivers.
I won’t go into the details, and I am sure you would have a few of your own, MCE, were we to swap stories.
But I well understand the feeling of being trapped in a situation.
I WISH I didnt have to see my sib or deal with his alcohol fueled shenanigans at times.
And I wait for the day when I won’t have to.
He isn’t going anywhere, and Mom won’t put him out.
Sadly, This enmeshed duo will come apart when one of them dies.
He can be helpful at times, if only for his presence in the house, and my mom likes having someone there.
Even if that someone is falling down drunk at times.
So...that is my unholy bargain.
I respect anyone who decides that life with an alcoholic is just too much, and they leave.
I think it is a brave thing to do, especially when children are involved.
But I also know that leaving isn’t always an option.
Take care of yourself and your family.
Wishing you strength as you find your way forward.

Thanks, Amy - I know EXACTLY what you mean by being embarrassed about talking to others and isolating myself.

About the time I decided to stop throwing pillows under AWs "hard landings" with alcohol - I also decided to stop being silent about it.

I don't announce it from the mountain tops, but . . . I don't hide it for her anymore or make excuses.

I have a client that I do a LOT of work for - and since their a small business too they invite me and AW to their holiday parties, etc. After a few of these where AW made a spectacle out of herself due to drinking too much . . . I just decided to stop bringing AW to these functions. AW doesn't bark too much - she knows why I don't invite her along any more. I've told a few in that company what's going on and they said "it's not like people didn't already know."

MCE Saint

Good Morning, Mr. MC.

I understand the frustrations in your post, and I also understand what others are saying, as well. Yes, sometimes certain posts 'trigger' others and hence their responses. Things that trigger the most are young children in the care of an alcoholic. I understand the feeling of being attacked in some of the responses. But it was perceived that you had more concern over your daughter leaving than you did with an active AW caregiving a helpless 3 year-old. That's all.

I too, am 'of advanced age' (54), with a 7 year old at home, and an active AW. So, I get it. But I'm not OK with leaving DS with AW, therefor I make sure I am home every night, before 8PM, which is when AW starts to decline and can no longer function as a responsible parent. During the day she is fine.

When I am ready to file for divorce, yes - I will throw every piece of ammunition I have at her, no question about it. She has made poor choices, she has done unimaginable things in the home that endanger the wellbeing of my child - I really don;t care how she feels about it at that point.

You say your health benefits are through her - you can force her to keep at least the children under her benefits. You might have to downsize your residence if there is a divorce - what price is your sanity and the care of the 3y.o?

My suggestion would be go and talk to a lawyer, or several lawyers. Some will do free consults over the phone, some do free consults in person. I talked to 4 of them, 3 of them charged me, but not at their normal hourly rate. I found one I really liked, gathered lots of information from all of them, and feel prepared once the time comes. Don't assume you lose everything because of a divorce. Your AW has a job and benefits - that's a huge plus for you. She also has stable income, also a huge plus. I think you believe you are 'trapped', but with some research and knowledge, you may not be trapped at all. You could probably even get her to contribute towards childcare for the youngster.

Please think about these things, and remember that we come from a good place here - we want to help, guide, educate, and support.

COD

Thanks Ohio . . . but let me say this. My AW is very high functioning. She doesn't deteriorate into sloppy, falling down careless on a regular or predictable schedule. But when she goes . . . hoo boy, strap in.

I get the the 3 year old up and to daycare most mornings, but because of my schedule, I can't do pick up every day - that is AWs province. Again, she's not *usually* sloppy falling down drunk at 5:30pm or 6pm in the evening, but is she legally drunk? (0.08) - my guess is: probably. She's at the point (again) of drinking to prevent going into detox and the physical symptoms of withdrawal. It's maybe 1.5 miles between daycare and home.

I'm home most nights no later than 7 pm. I travel very occasionally - maybe a total of one week per year - on business (and that's unavoidable).

If I throw everything at my wife in a divorce, there is a good chance she could lose her job. It would probably come out that she has a drink every morning just to keep from being ill. And if the consequences of THAT were just contained to HER, then it's not even a problem for me to pull the trigger. But, the consequences of HER losing her job would fall on me (once again) and her children.

But, even if she didn't lose her job . . . the cost of health care for myself is outrageous (I've checked) just because of my age. On my own I wouldn't qualify for any subsidies so I'm paying full out-of-pocket even for an ACA policy.

And then there's the hole we are already in - with unpaid bills from (or due to) rehab stints, etc. . . . which has tanked our credit score. Most landlords in this area will do a credit check before leasing to you, so that cuts down the places, if any, that would be available to me should I move out with the 3 year old. It also makes a refinance of the home impossible.

Like I said: I know my options . . . just that none of them are good options.

MCE Saint

I feel bad for your child, MCE. That you knowingly have an intoxicated person driving your child every day. She could pull out in front of a dump truck while she's pulling out of daycare, she doesn't need the entire 1.5 to get home to do something stupid.

I'm sure there would be options for your child's benefits, should AW lose her job, and other benefits for both of you as well, should you choose to go that route. But it seems you have made up your mind that the sacrifices are too great. I'm sorry you feel that way.

I can sympathize. My situation is similar, except I am not the primary breadwinner. (My job also is not year round)

Have you ever considered uber or lyft as an option for daycare pickups? If they are available in your area.

Hello. I am so sorry for what you are going through. I am so glad your 17 yo felt strong enough in herself to get out of that situation.

I understand your constraints. My thought is that you must put the safety of your child first. I understand that does not mean leaving at this time, however, is there someone else who could drive your child? Another parent, etc. I would make that my priority.

Have you sought out Alanon or Celebrate Recovery? They helped me immensely with having the face to face support I needed during the time things were at their worst with my XAH.

I understand you own your business. Have you thought about the possibility of selling your business and becoming an employee so you have benefits extended to you? I know that sounds drastic, but it sounds like things are coming to a head.

I would make sure your 17 y.o. has counseling. If you cannot afford it, seek out therapy through graduate students. Call the local colleges, I know there are several in St. Louis, and see if they can recommend a low cost place for her to get counseling. I know where I live there are places if you have ever been abused either physically or emotionally, you qualify for FREE counseling. Check your local abuse shelters for that. I participated in this for a while, it really helped me, and could help you and your daughter as well.

I hope you keep posting. Like any forum, take what helps and leave the rest.

Hugs to you.

Uber and Lyft aren't available in my area. But, even if they were, when I checked on them for my 17 y.o., they weren't available because you must be 18 y.o. to use their services (per their web sites). Perhaps there are some in areas like New York City that "wink" at such a provision, but not here in the Great Fly Over.

MCE Saint

Not to get off on a tangent, but no MALE can come within a hundred feet of a shelter because - here - they are to protect FEMALES from males.

Men who are victims of physical abuse - and when AW drinks she has physically attacked me (even kicked in a door that I had locked) - are just Shyte Out of Luck.

MCE Saint