Parenting insight from Kid's counsellor
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Parenting insight from Kid's counsellor
I had a really interesting (and somewhat sobering, no pun intended) talk with the counsellor that Kid has been seeing and I thought I would pass along something I learned:
The counsellor said that children of alcoholics often have trouble learning to process and regulate painful or uncomfortable emotions. On one side, they have the alcoholic parent who is typically disregulated, and acts out all kinds of feelings and causes chaos in doing so. On the other side, there's the non-addicted parent.
The counsellor says she sees two patterns - one is where the non-addict is enmeshed with the addict and trying to get him/her to change, often by yelling, cajoling, crying and generally adding to the level of crazy (which is what they talk about in AlAnon). The other pattern is where the non-addict responds by disengaging from the addict, doesn't pay more attention than necessary to the alcoholic, doesn't display a lot of negative emotion, and generally "overfunctions" - takes on all the parenting the addict isn't doing, but often holds back his/her own feelings about the addiction situation. Parents in the second pattern (like me) often have a lot of feelings about the situation, but they don't display them, often because they don't want to add to the psychological burden on the kids.
However, kids often can't tell the difference between behaving calmly and unemotionally in a bad situation, and actually being calm and unemotional. They think that the non-addict parent doesn't feel anything at all. So they have two models - addict, who acts out and flails around emotionally, and non-addict, who appears to be very low on the emotion-meter. Neither of these are good examples of how to experience and process painful feelings - they are both extremes. So COAs struggle with how to handle their own feelings.
The counsellor said that this dynamic can actually contribute to intergenerational alcoholism - kids (or teens) feel really unhappy, they don't have coping skills, they've observed adults using substances and so that's what they do. Even if they've also observed all the negative consequences that come with addiction, they still have the idea that you can numb pain with substances. (I come from a non-alcoholic family of origin, and it would never have occurred to me as an angsty tween or teen that drinking would make me feel better - because I never saw anyone using alcohol in that way).
Lots to think about - and to try to figure out how to handle with Kid. I have a lot of questions but no answers.
The counsellor said that children of alcoholics often have trouble learning to process and regulate painful or uncomfortable emotions. On one side, they have the alcoholic parent who is typically disregulated, and acts out all kinds of feelings and causes chaos in doing so. On the other side, there's the non-addicted parent.
The counsellor says she sees two patterns - one is where the non-addict is enmeshed with the addict and trying to get him/her to change, often by yelling, cajoling, crying and generally adding to the level of crazy (which is what they talk about in AlAnon). The other pattern is where the non-addict responds by disengaging from the addict, doesn't pay more attention than necessary to the alcoholic, doesn't display a lot of negative emotion, and generally "overfunctions" - takes on all the parenting the addict isn't doing, but often holds back his/her own feelings about the addiction situation. Parents in the second pattern (like me) often have a lot of feelings about the situation, but they don't display them, often because they don't want to add to the psychological burden on the kids.
However, kids often can't tell the difference between behaving calmly and unemotionally in a bad situation, and actually being calm and unemotional. They think that the non-addict parent doesn't feel anything at all. So they have two models - addict, who acts out and flails around emotionally, and non-addict, who appears to be very low on the emotion-meter. Neither of these are good examples of how to experience and process painful feelings - they are both extremes. So COAs struggle with how to handle their own feelings.
The counsellor said that this dynamic can actually contribute to intergenerational alcoholism - kids (or teens) feel really unhappy, they don't have coping skills, they've observed adults using substances and so that's what they do. Even if they've also observed all the negative consequences that come with addiction, they still have the idea that you can numb pain with substances. (I come from a non-alcoholic family of origin, and it would never have occurred to me as an angsty tween or teen that drinking would make me feel better - because I never saw anyone using alcohol in that way).
Lots to think about - and to try to figure out how to handle with Kid. I have a lot of questions but no answers.
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That is sobering Sasha and it makes sense.
My family of origin were not users so I don't have a clue. Does the adult children of alcoholics have anything to say about this?
Keep walking the walk the best you can.
My family of origin were not users so I don't have a clue. Does the adult children of alcoholics have anything to say about this?
Keep walking the walk the best you can.
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Makes sense to me, Sasha.
I think that we, not you, really undervalue the effects of addiction on children.
We think they don’t notice the addiction, when they DO,
And that we can shield them from it, when we can’t.
ACOA here. I know exactly how my father’s alcohol addiction affected me.
Thankfully, stronger.
I think that we, not you, really undervalue the effects of addiction on children.
We think they don’t notice the addiction, when they DO,
And that we can shield them from it, when we can’t.
ACOA here. I know exactly how my father’s alcohol addiction affected me.
Thankfully, stronger.
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sasha and any others who may be interested....I recommend a book that is very thought provoking on the influences on child development...
This book got a lot of attention when it was published and caused a great stir.
One of the reasons is that it dealt with the influences beyond just the parents...and, in particular it gave great attention to the peer group and other influences outside o f the parental influences (not that parents aren't important)....
I thought that the material was well documented...
for me, it was good in terms of tempering some of the parental guilt that most of us carry around in a sack on our backs....
I really recommend it for those who have children under 21yrs......
I wish it had been written years sooner, when my kids were that age...lol....
"The Nurture Assumption" Why Children Turn Out The Way They Do. by Judith Rich Harris....(you can get it on amazon.com)
She has also written some other books and textbooks on child development....
This book got a lot of attention when it was published and caused a great stir.
One of the reasons is that it dealt with the influences beyond just the parents...and, in particular it gave great attention to the peer group and other influences outside o f the parental influences (not that parents aren't important)....
I thought that the material was well documented...
for me, it was good in terms of tempering some of the parental guilt that most of us carry around in a sack on our backs....
I really recommend it for those who have children under 21yrs......
I wish it had been written years sooner, when my kids were that age...lol....
"The Nurture Assumption" Why Children Turn Out The Way They Do. by Judith Rich Harris....(you can get it on amazon.com)
She has also written some other books and textbooks on child development....
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Sasha I have met children of alcoholics and addicts who hate the whole drink and drug scene, but others who follow their parents down the path, and if they've had miserable childhoods I wonder why. To a certain extent I was in the latter group.
Thinking back, my mother only really expressed emotions openly when she was under the influence, and it wasn't pretty. What a mess of seething aggression! It did come out in other ways though.
Thanks for sharing.
Thinking back, my mother only really expressed emotions openly when she was under the influence, and it wasn't pretty. What a mess of seething aggression! It did come out in other ways though.
Thanks for sharing.
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Actually my children got to an age and understanding that they could somewhat articulate what you just said in a way that was affecting their lives. So what we did/do is talk about it. If they need to talk, I listen. I mainly keep my mouth shut about their father, but I do talk to them about how addiction has affected my own life, how I feel about addiction. I think it has made a world of difference. I have an 18 and almost 12 year old, and I am so proud of both of them and how far they have come. They have been in counseling for YEARS and it has spilled over not only into dealing with their father, but in how they deal with the other stressors in their lives. It has been a blessing. It's not something short term, and not something that happened overnight. It was digging through deep and painful stuff, and coming out a different person on the other side.
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This stuff is hard enough without the kids getting impossibly wrapped up like this. It's really unavoidable but I'll tell you, DD & I have some honest conversations & when we step back it's hard not to see SO many struggling with different dysfunctions - they often just display their damage differently. 
Have you read much around the ACOA forum & the Classic Sticky posts there?
Have you read much around the ACOA forum & the Classic Sticky posts there?
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Sasha - Thank you for posting, this is an extremely important topic to me. Based on what the counselor said, it's probably best for the non-addict parent to be open and honest with the child about what is going on? Express their frustration in a healthy way so that the child learns they can also be frustrated too?
I have an almost two year old and I will not lie, I am hypersensitive to his experience with all of this and just want to make sure I'm doing my very best to be present for him and support him. Any and all advice those are able to share on this topic is welcome...
I'll start with a question....at what age did your child(ren) begin therapy?
I have an almost two year old and I will not lie, I am hypersensitive to his experience with all of this and just want to make sure I'm doing my very best to be present for him and support him. Any and all advice those are able to share on this topic is welcome...
I'll start with a question....at what age did your child(ren) begin therapy?
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Since we are on this subject.....a couple of days ago, I heard Dr. Phil mention that when he 16 yrs. old , he had failing grades in school and had missed more days of school "than any other student in the non felon category"....
I know, from previous comments. that he was living with his father, at that time, and his father was a "falling down drunk". Dr. Phil relates of having to deal with poverty and homelessness from time to time. while living with his father.....
Apparently, later, his father, who became a clinical psychologist, got his stuff together, later in life....
Dr. Phil tells of the decision to not drink at all...after some really bad drinking and acting out behavior, in his mid teens.
It is interesting that he married Robin, whose father was, also, an alcoholic, whose family suffered as a result....
They married, and had an alcohol free home...as they said that they both felt very strongly about not continuing the generational thing....
I know, from previous comments. that he was living with his father, at that time, and his father was a "falling down drunk". Dr. Phil relates of having to deal with poverty and homelessness from time to time. while living with his father.....
Apparently, later, his father, who became a clinical psychologist, got his stuff together, later in life....
Dr. Phil tells of the decision to not drink at all...after some really bad drinking and acting out behavior, in his mid teens.
It is interesting that he married Robin, whose father was, also, an alcoholic, whose family suffered as a result....
They married, and had an alcohol free home...as they said that they both felt very strongly about not continuing the generational thing....
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It's hard because I see Kid repeating my own not-so-great coping strategies from my childhood - self-isolating, saying "I'm fine", acting like I don't feel anything and nothing bothers me. I don't know if I should let her have her space and spend all Saturday in her room if she wants, or if I should be more assertive and insist that she come out and we interact. Everything I've read says that the strongest protective factor for COAs is the relationship with the non-addicted parent, and I'm not sure how to build that relationship with a tween who resents me for "overreacting" to little things like criminal charges for DUI and who's been told that I'm a malicious a$$hole by her father.
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Maybe frame getting her out of her room around some activity like walking, playing scrabble, sewing, whatever interests her. More work for you, I know, but spending all day in her room is a bit worrying.
I assume you didn't have the advantage of counselling when you were young; at least she has that.
I assume you didn't have the advantage of counselling when you were young; at least she has that.
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I've just told her that if she wants to watch something after dinner, we're watching it together. She can pick, but it's in the living room, with me, not alone on her phone. I also told her that how she feels is fine, but rude and disrespectful behavior is not acceptable. If she's upset about something, she can't take it out on me. If she wants to tell me something, I'm always willing to listen, but I'm not a target for her emotions. I feel disrespected and mistreated when she does so.
It also makes me really angry because I am not the one who is trashing his life because he wants to keep drinking, I'm not the one who put her in a car while he was drunk at the wheel, I'm not the one who got arrested on two DUI charges, I'm not the one who relapses repeatedly, but apparently I'm the one who is responsible for the consequences, because I "make all the rules", according to Kid.
Part of me wants to say "fine, go stay with your wonderful father. See how long it takes before he forgets your school lunch because he's passed out in the morning, how long before you have no clean clothes (he'll just give you money to buy new ones), how long before you miss all your sports practices because his license is suspended for DUI. See how wonderful he is when he's smelly and disheveled. See how long it takes before he turns his rage and martyrdom crap on you. See what it's like to live with no limits on alcoholic behavior. Say hi to the police when they stop by again, and don't forget to hide his girlfriend's meth stash". But of course I don't say that - I just write it out here.
It also makes me really angry because I am not the one who is trashing his life because he wants to keep drinking, I'm not the one who put her in a car while he was drunk at the wheel, I'm not the one who got arrested on two DUI charges, I'm not the one who relapses repeatedly, but apparently I'm the one who is responsible for the consequences, because I "make all the rules", according to Kid.
Part of me wants to say "fine, go stay with your wonderful father. See how long it takes before he forgets your school lunch because he's passed out in the morning, how long before you have no clean clothes (he'll just give you money to buy new ones), how long before you miss all your sports practices because his license is suspended for DUI. See how wonderful he is when he's smelly and disheveled. See how long it takes before he turns his rage and martyrdom crap on you. See what it's like to live with no limits on alcoholic behavior. Say hi to the police when they stop by again, and don't forget to hide his girlfriend's meth stash". But of course I don't say that - I just write it out here.
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I hear you Sasha. And I'm sure she knows too.
BTW my daughter was disrespectful and hard to live with too, and I called her out as well. I had to do it every few months. Don't even get me started on helping around the house.
BTW my daughter was disrespectful and hard to live with too, and I called her out as well. I had to do it every few months. Don't even get me started on helping around the house.
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Thanks - I really appreciate hearing from other parents who dealt with this and lived to tell the tale. It's good to have this group as a sounding board - I know other parents have tween and teen kids who are difficult to deal with, but having the alcoholic parent in the background, who has no qualms about undermining me and fighting dirty, make this more challenging.
And I should say that Kid is a good kid, mostly. She does well in school, works hard at a sport she is passionate about, goes to Alateen willingly, is the babysitter of choice for friends' small kids, and shows excellent manners and behavior around people who are not her mother.
And I should say that Kid is a good kid, mostly. She does well in school, works hard at a sport she is passionate about, goes to Alateen willingly, is the babysitter of choice for friends' small kids, and shows excellent manners and behavior around people who are not her mother.
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Oh teenagers. The fun age.
My 13YO son last night freaked out over some fruit flies and went on this diatribe on how he found the house stupid, the kitchen was too tiny and there was too much wasted space in the foyer. Then he went on to ask why couldn't we live in a mansion (and no, he was not joking). Why were we so stupid to buy this house? I was about to serve dinner and told him that I wasn't going to sit down at the table. I didn't want to sit in the same room as somebody who was obnoxious and insulting because he was angry over a couple fruit flies. I told him that the fact that he was complaining about not living in a mansion underscored the sense of entitlement that he felt, and I wasn't going to support that. If he couldn't appreciate the fact that we were putting a roof over his head and food on the table so he could eat it I was going to step outside a moment and calm myself down before I said something equally as obnoxious and stupid.
So I did. And he apologized. And I asked him why did he wait until I was so mad I had to walk out on the front step before he listened to us? (We were trying to reason with him until the very bitter end.) I also said I was going to continue to call him out on his sense of entitlement, and if he hated me a thousand times over I didn't care - that was much more preferable than the alternative - the inability to appreciate the good life that he already had. If he continued with that attitude, he was going to end up with a pretty miserable life indeed.
This all ends after he turns twenty, right?
My 13YO son last night freaked out over some fruit flies and went on this diatribe on how he found the house stupid, the kitchen was too tiny and there was too much wasted space in the foyer. Then he went on to ask why couldn't we live in a mansion (and no, he was not joking). Why were we so stupid to buy this house? I was about to serve dinner and told him that I wasn't going to sit down at the table. I didn't want to sit in the same room as somebody who was obnoxious and insulting because he was angry over a couple fruit flies. I told him that the fact that he was complaining about not living in a mansion underscored the sense of entitlement that he felt, and I wasn't going to support that. If he couldn't appreciate the fact that we were putting a roof over his head and food on the table so he could eat it I was going to step outside a moment and calm myself down before I said something equally as obnoxious and stupid.
So I did. And he apologized. And I asked him why did he wait until I was so mad I had to walk out on the front step before he listened to us? (We were trying to reason with him until the very bitter end.) I also said I was going to continue to call him out on his sense of entitlement, and if he hated me a thousand times over I didn't care - that was much more preferable than the alternative - the inability to appreciate the good life that he already had. If he continued with that attitude, he was going to end up with a pretty miserable life indeed.
This all ends after he turns twenty, right?
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Originally Posted by Sasha1972 
The counsellor says she sees two patterns - one is where the non-addict is enmeshed with the addict and trying to get him/her to change, often by yelling, cajoling, crying and generally adding to the level of crazy (which is what they talk about in AlAnon). The other pattern is where the non-addict responds by disengaging from the addict, doesn't pay more attention than necessary to the alcoholic, doesn't display a lot of negative emotion, and generally "overfunctions" - takes on all the parenting the addict isn't doing, but often holds back his/her own feelings about the addiction situation. Parents in the second pattern (like me) often have a lot of feelings about the situation, but they don't display them, often because they don't want to add to the psychological burden on the kids.
However, kids often can't tell the difference between behaving calmly and unemotionally in a bad situation, and actually being calm and unemotional. They think that the non-addict parent doesn't feel anything at all. So they have two models - addict, who acts out and flails around emotionally, and non-addict, who appears to be very low on the emotion-meter. Neither of these are good examples of how to experience and process painful feelings - they are both extremes. So COAs struggle with how to handle their own feelings.
The counsellor said that this dynamic can actually contribute to intergenerational alcoholism - kids (or teens) feel really unhappy, they don't have coping skills, they've observed adults using substances and so that's what they do. Even if they've also observed all the negative consequences that come with addiction, they still have the idea that you can numb pain with substances. (I come from a non-alcoholic family of origin, and it would never have occurred to me as an angsty tween or teen that drinking would make me feel better - because I never saw anyone using alcohol in that way).
Lots to think about - and to try to figure out how to handle with Kid. I have a lot of questions but no answers.
However, kids often can't tell the difference between behaving calmly and unemotionally in a bad situation, and actually being calm and unemotional. They think that the non-addict parent doesn't feel anything at all. So they have two models - addict, who acts out and flails around emotionally, and non-addict, who appears to be very low on the emotion-meter. Neither of these are good examples of how to experience and process painful feelings - they are both extremes. So COAs struggle with how to handle their own feelings.
The counsellor said that this dynamic can actually contribute to intergenerational alcoholism - kids (or teens) feel really unhappy, they don't have coping skills, they've observed adults using substances and so that's what they do. Even if they've also observed all the negative consequences that come with addiction, they still have the idea that you can numb pain with substances. (I come from a non-alcoholic family of origin, and it would never have occurred to me as an angsty tween or teen that drinking would make me feel better - because I never saw anyone using alcohol in that way).
Lots to think about - and to try to figure out how to handle with Kid. I have a lot of questions but no answers.
I agree with all that you wrote.
I did not come from an immediate family with addiction. I do suspect now though that both my parents did....and there was a lot of untreated codependency in the family system as a result. Out of the 11 total siblings in their families there is only one addict but a number of them married addicts and there is a lot of addiction problems in the next generation.
I say the above because I agree that addiction can lead to generational concerns, but I also truly believe that untreated codependency can to. My mom is on the under feeling side of the spectrum and I really really thought this is the way I had to be.....
So much was given to me as a kid. So much of that works in my life today. Emotions was a challenge in my family and in part I believe lead me to struggle with an eating disorder. To be clear though I also believe I gained the tenacity and courage to look into my healing needs in part from my upbringing.
What I wish most for now that was missing is a family member demonstrating good self-care and a willingness to work on his/her own healing which I know you are doing, and talking to me about his/her journey. When you know better you do better and it may not show the blossom yet for your daughter but it does let her know it can be done. I suspect you can do that without making it bad about her dad or his challenges.
Thinking of you at this time.
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