Another frustrating evening
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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Another frustrating evening
I'm venting a bit here.
Background: after a drunk-driving incident in May, the terms of ex's contact with Kid were visits of no more than two hours, I do the handovers in person, and Kid doesn't get in a car with ex.
Last week, after months of wrangling, ex agreed in mediation to use SoberLink (portable alcohol monitoring technology) as a condition of increased contact with Kid. Excellent! I thought. This will make life so much easier.
Tonight was the first trial run. The deal was that ex would provide a sample before the visit started and another sample just before the visit ended (to indicate he hadn't been drinking during the visit). The before-visit sample was fine. During the visit, I got a text from ex saying he wasn't going to provide the second sample until long after the visit was over, because he had something to eat and "food can produce a false positive". That was NOT the deal. When he brought Kid back at the end of the visit, Kid said that they had driven back to his place to hang out. That was NOT the deal either. I had not indicated that I was fine with him driving Kid to and fro.
So now Kid wants to go all kinds of places with Dad, because "now that Dad has the breathalzyer he said it's okay to do lots of things". Also NOT the deal. So once again I look like the mean mommy (because I have to say to Kid "your father and I need to discuss this - we have not actually agreed that you can go places with him"). And I have ex testing the limits once again, by not providing a second sample as he had agreed to do. Yes, the SoberLink site recommends waiting 15 minutes after eating before providing a sample. To me, that suggests that you don't eat less than 15 minutes before you have agreed to provide a sample, not that you eat when you feel like it and then say "hey, I'll give you a sample later this evening".
I know this is petty and trivial in some respects, but I am SO TIRED of having to manage, monitor and otherwise deal with the shiftiness and deception around his alcohol consumption. It may indeed be true that he ate something without realizing what time it was and it was an honest mistake. But there's a pretty good chance it wasn't. It's almost as though he's pushing to see what he can get away with. I'm envisaging the litany of future excuses for non-compliance.
I wish I could say "Dude, I am not the enemy. The problem is not me. The problem is your drinking. The way to fix the problem is not by trying to find excuses ways to look like you're not drinking. The way to fix the problem is by NOT DRINKING FOR REAL and demonstrating that you are not drinking in ways which are credible".
Background: after a drunk-driving incident in May, the terms of ex's contact with Kid were visits of no more than two hours, I do the handovers in person, and Kid doesn't get in a car with ex.
Last week, after months of wrangling, ex agreed in mediation to use SoberLink (portable alcohol monitoring technology) as a condition of increased contact with Kid. Excellent! I thought. This will make life so much easier.
Tonight was the first trial run. The deal was that ex would provide a sample before the visit started and another sample just before the visit ended (to indicate he hadn't been drinking during the visit). The before-visit sample was fine. During the visit, I got a text from ex saying he wasn't going to provide the second sample until long after the visit was over, because he had something to eat and "food can produce a false positive". That was NOT the deal. When he brought Kid back at the end of the visit, Kid said that they had driven back to his place to hang out. That was NOT the deal either. I had not indicated that I was fine with him driving Kid to and fro.
So now Kid wants to go all kinds of places with Dad, because "now that Dad has the breathalzyer he said it's okay to do lots of things". Also NOT the deal. So once again I look like the mean mommy (because I have to say to Kid "your father and I need to discuss this - we have not actually agreed that you can go places with him"). And I have ex testing the limits once again, by not providing a second sample as he had agreed to do. Yes, the SoberLink site recommends waiting 15 minutes after eating before providing a sample. To me, that suggests that you don't eat less than 15 minutes before you have agreed to provide a sample, not that you eat when you feel like it and then say "hey, I'll give you a sample later this evening".
I know this is petty and trivial in some respects, but I am SO TIRED of having to manage, monitor and otherwise deal with the shiftiness and deception around his alcohol consumption. It may indeed be true that he ate something without realizing what time it was and it was an honest mistake. But there's a pretty good chance it wasn't. It's almost as though he's pushing to see what he can get away with. I'm envisaging the litany of future excuses for non-compliance.
I wish I could say "Dude, I am not the enemy. The problem is not me. The problem is your drinking. The way to fix the problem is not by trying to find excuses ways to look like you're not drinking. The way to fix the problem is by NOT DRINKING FOR REAL and demonstrating that you are not drinking in ways which are credible".
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Join Date: Jan 2016
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What are the visitation rules from mediation ? Are they spelled out specifically?
If not...this isn't my area, but in dealing with weasels like your ex, the more specific and detailed the rules are, the better. Any glimpse of daylight and they'll drive a beer truck through that loophole.
You're documenting all of this for your lawyer, of course...
I'm so sorry you keep having to tell your daughter that rules are rules. It sucks to be the good parent and not the "fun" parent. But this is a life lesson that will ultimately serve her well.
Sending you a hug.
If not...this isn't my area, but in dealing with weasels like your ex, the more specific and detailed the rules are, the better. Any glimpse of daylight and they'll drive a beer truck through that loophole.
You're documenting all of this for your lawyer, of course...
I'm so sorry you keep having to tell your daughter that rules are rules. It sucks to be the good parent and not the "fun" parent. But this is a life lesson that will ultimately serve her well.
Sending you a hug.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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He might be pushing the boundaries for the sake of it, but chances are he was drinking during the visit and needed to hide that from you.
Super important that you hold the line here, regardless of what you daughter says. If you have to be a cold b***, go for it. He's testing, and the only answer is for you to stick like glue to the agreement.
He sounds like a real jerk to deal with, and you've gone out of your way for his sake, but just like dealing with a immature toddler, if you don't hold firm you'll get more bad behaviour.
Super important that you hold the line here, regardless of what you daughter says. If you have to be a cold b***, go for it. He's testing, and the only answer is for you to stick like glue to the agreement.
He sounds like a real jerk to deal with, and you've gone out of your way for his sake, but just like dealing with a immature toddler, if you don't hold firm you'll get more bad behaviour.
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Join Date: Aug 2014
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Sasha
If he is not abiding by the agreed upon decisions, then she can't go. He will need to make his meal time appropriate to when he drives her home, or its a no go.
Sober link is for before and after, not when he feels like it. Duh!!! If you can't follow court mandated orders, you don't get child!! End of discussion!!
If he is not abiding by the agreed upon decisions, then she can't go. He will need to make his meal time appropriate to when he drives her home, or its a no go.
Sober link is for before and after, not when he feels like it. Duh!!! If you can't follow court mandated orders, you don't get child!! End of discussion!!
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
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Yup, this is a situation where that court order is your friend. You can tell BOTH your ex and your daughter that the court has spelled things out very specifically, and for everyone's sake we are sticking to the letter of the order. Period. End of story.
I agree he was probably drinking, not just testing limits. He knew he'd blow positive. And if it's a 15-minute window for potential false positives, how burdensome is THAT? Assuming, for the sake of argument, he forgot and ate late, what's the big deal in testing 15 minutes later?
You can just tell your daughter that life has rules, and even when they don't seem always to make sense, they exist for a reason and we all go along with them for the sake of having life run smoothly. You don't drive a hundred miles an hour on a highway late at night even if there's no traffic and it looks like it's safe. Same here.
I agree he was probably drinking, not just testing limits. He knew he'd blow positive. And if it's a 15-minute window for potential false positives, how burdensome is THAT? Assuming, for the sake of argument, he forgot and ate late, what's the big deal in testing 15 minutes later?
You can just tell your daughter that life has rules, and even when they don't seem always to make sense, they exist for a reason and we all go along with them for the sake of having life run smoothly. You don't drive a hundred miles an hour on a highway late at night even if there's no traffic and it looks like it's safe. Same here.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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Yes, I did get a compliant test result later that evening, about twenty minutes after Kid came back.
Lexie, we don't yet have a court order spelling things out - this mediation process that we're in is meant to lead to one, but we aren't there yet. The big victory so far has been ex consenting to use SoberLink, now I guess one of the tasks is for me to find all the possible loopholes and devise wording to close them ...
Lexie, we don't yet have a court order spelling things out - this mediation process that we're in is meant to lead to one, but we aren't there yet. The big victory so far has been ex consenting to use SoberLink, now I guess one of the tasks is for me to find all the possible loopholes and devise wording to close them ...
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Is he too drunk to keep track of when he's supposed to eat?
Document document document to establish that pattern. He's driving you crazy now, but in reality he's just digging an even deeper hole for himself.
As for your daughter... a friend of mine has a daughter whose bio-mother abandoned her when she shacked up with a convicted felon. Bio-mother even moved out-of-state and never even bothered to show up in court when they were discussing custody.
Now more than a decade later, the bio-mother contacted the girl via email and is going blah blah blah they kept you away from me yadda yadda yadda. The poor girl so desperately wants to believe her, no questions asked, despite the documentation. There is a very well defined court order that bans bio-mother from seeing the girl, but the girl tries to defy that and the bio-mother of course encourages that by taking advantage of her natural teenage rebellion.
Sometimes belief and desire overrides all logic, and you need a steady hand and clear mind to help you see the truth.
PS. When I read your story, I can't help but think about the movie "The Spectacular Now" and the scene with the dad.
Document document document to establish that pattern. He's driving you crazy now, but in reality he's just digging an even deeper hole for himself.
As for your daughter... a friend of mine has a daughter whose bio-mother abandoned her when she shacked up with a convicted felon. Bio-mother even moved out-of-state and never even bothered to show up in court when they were discussing custody.
Now more than a decade later, the bio-mother contacted the girl via email and is going blah blah blah they kept you away from me yadda yadda yadda. The poor girl so desperately wants to believe her, no questions asked, despite the documentation. There is a very well defined court order that bans bio-mother from seeing the girl, but the girl tries to defy that and the bio-mother of course encourages that by taking advantage of her natural teenage rebellion.
Sometimes belief and desire overrides all logic, and you need a steady hand and clear mind to help you see the truth.
PS. When I read your story, I can't help but think about the movie "The Spectacular Now" and the scene with the dad.
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So I did the cold b**** thing and told ex that in future I expected him to blow on schedule as a condition of increasing access to Kid. If I get a noncompliant (positive) test report, I'll contact him immediately so he can re-test within 15 minutes. If he doesn't blow as agreed, he doesn't get more time with Kid and he most definitely doesn't get in a car with her. Got back a long excuse, but he agreed not to "postpone" testing again.
I also asked him to send me a plan for how the use of SoberLink could facilitate him spending more time with Kid, including a proposed testing schedule. I know from experience that if I come up with a plan or a proposal or a way forward, it turns into a cat-and-mouse game of him trying to get around "my" rules. I'm hoping that if he takes some ownership of the plan to move forward, this will be reduced. I'm also trying to put into practice some of the AlAnon wisdom about not trying to organize the alcoholic and his drinking. We shall see. More will be revealed.
I also asked him to send me a plan for how the use of SoberLink could facilitate him spending more time with Kid, including a proposed testing schedule. I know from experience that if I come up with a plan or a proposal or a way forward, it turns into a cat-and-mouse game of him trying to get around "my" rules. I'm hoping that if he takes some ownership of the plan to move forward, this will be reduced. I'm also trying to put into practice some of the AlAnon wisdom about not trying to organize the alcoholic and his drinking. We shall see. More will be revealed.
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... and here we go again. Yesterday, we agreed that ex would blow just before and just after a visit with Kid. The plan was that he would take her shopping for a back to school outfit. I said that if he provided a clean test at the beginning of the visit, I would let him drive to the mall with her (it's about 3 min from his house). Kid is excited, it's her first trip out with Dad since May, etc.
Ten minutes before the visit starts, my phone rings. Oh crap, it's ex. Turns out he can't blow because he left his phone at a store, and his phone has the SoberLink app and without it he can't transmit his results and and and ... but if I want I can confirm by observing him and talking with him that he's sober and he will DEFINITELY blow after the visit assuming he gets his phone back and ... I say I'm not going to figure out whether he's drinking or not, if he doesn't provide a clean test he can't go shopping with Kid. I will bring her for a two-hour visit to remain at his house (and even that I'm not too happy about). So now Kid is mad at me because as she sees it I have ruined her shopping trip with Dad.
Ex swears up and down that he will blow as soon as he can get his phone back so I'll know he wasn't drinking while he was with Kid. An hour or so after the visit ends, I get a text from ex. Yes, he got his phone back but ... his internet connection isn't working! It must be something wrong with SoberLink! He called customer service but they aren't open on weekends and here is a screenshot of his phone which is supposed to prove something and and and ... I don't bother to reply.
So - out of the first four prearranged, agreed-on testing times, over two days he screwed up three with the-dog-ate-my-homework quality excuses.
Kid is mad and giving me the silent treatment because she was hoping that with her father using SoberLink she could see him more. In her mind, I'm the one getting in the way and not being understanding of her father accidentally forgetting he wasn't supposed to eat before testing, or accidentally leaving his phone somewhere ("It's not like YOU never forget your phone!"). It is futile to explain that this is not about leaving your phone somewhere, it's about failure to follow through on promises.
I am angry because I had (unrealistic) hopes for SoberLink as well - maybe this could provide the evidence of sobriety that I need in order to make life better for everyone involved. I am also angry because I am trying to apply reasonable-person logic to an addict - if I knew that my access to my child depended on me blowing into a plastic tube attached to my phone a few times a week, I would move heaven and earth to make sure I blew into that tube. If SoberLink said "jump", I would say "how high?". I would not say "well, I can't jump because I forgot my jumping shoes and I think my foot feels funny and how about I just jump a little bit in an hour or too?".
I know that this is my non-addicted brain trying to understand the screwed-up thought processes of the addict, which is futile. But I can't help thinking "do you actually WANT to see your daughter? If you do, why do you keep sabotaging all your chances to show that you can be trusted to keep her safe?".
So I've just sent another note to my lawyer, asking him to report ex's non-compliance to ex's lawyer, noting that this will be brought up at our next arbitration meeting in a few weeks. I am not going to engage with ex on this myself. My case for sole custody gets stronger and stronger.
But this crap is taking more and more of a toll on my relationship with Kid, as she transfers all her frustration with the situation onto me, because I'm the safe, reliable one. I understand why she reacts the way she does. But that does not make it any more enjoyable to have an angry tween glaring at me and stomping around because she can't go shopping with her father.
Thanks to anyone who reads this - it really does help me to write it all out.
Ten minutes before the visit starts, my phone rings. Oh crap, it's ex. Turns out he can't blow because he left his phone at a store, and his phone has the SoberLink app and without it he can't transmit his results and and and ... but if I want I can confirm by observing him and talking with him that he's sober and he will DEFINITELY blow after the visit assuming he gets his phone back and ... I say I'm not going to figure out whether he's drinking or not, if he doesn't provide a clean test he can't go shopping with Kid. I will bring her for a two-hour visit to remain at his house (and even that I'm not too happy about). So now Kid is mad at me because as she sees it I have ruined her shopping trip with Dad.
Ex swears up and down that he will blow as soon as he can get his phone back so I'll know he wasn't drinking while he was with Kid. An hour or so after the visit ends, I get a text from ex. Yes, he got his phone back but ... his internet connection isn't working! It must be something wrong with SoberLink! He called customer service but they aren't open on weekends and here is a screenshot of his phone which is supposed to prove something and and and ... I don't bother to reply.
So - out of the first four prearranged, agreed-on testing times, over two days he screwed up three with the-dog-ate-my-homework quality excuses.
Kid is mad and giving me the silent treatment because she was hoping that with her father using SoberLink she could see him more. In her mind, I'm the one getting in the way and not being understanding of her father accidentally forgetting he wasn't supposed to eat before testing, or accidentally leaving his phone somewhere ("It's not like YOU never forget your phone!"). It is futile to explain that this is not about leaving your phone somewhere, it's about failure to follow through on promises.
I am angry because I had (unrealistic) hopes for SoberLink as well - maybe this could provide the evidence of sobriety that I need in order to make life better for everyone involved. I am also angry because I am trying to apply reasonable-person logic to an addict - if I knew that my access to my child depended on me blowing into a plastic tube attached to my phone a few times a week, I would move heaven and earth to make sure I blew into that tube. If SoberLink said "jump", I would say "how high?". I would not say "well, I can't jump because I forgot my jumping shoes and I think my foot feels funny and how about I just jump a little bit in an hour or too?".
I know that this is my non-addicted brain trying to understand the screwed-up thought processes of the addict, which is futile. But I can't help thinking "do you actually WANT to see your daughter? If you do, why do you keep sabotaging all your chances to show that you can be trusted to keep her safe?".
So I've just sent another note to my lawyer, asking him to report ex's non-compliance to ex's lawyer, noting that this will be brought up at our next arbitration meeting in a few weeks. I am not going to engage with ex on this myself. My case for sole custody gets stronger and stronger.
But this crap is taking more and more of a toll on my relationship with Kid, as she transfers all her frustration with the situation onto me, because I'm the safe, reliable one. I understand why she reacts the way she does. But that does not make it any more enjoyable to have an angry tween glaring at me and stomping around because she can't go shopping with her father.
Thanks to anyone who reads this - it really does help me to write it all out.
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Northwest
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Oh, sweetie...what a mess. I'm sorry.
It's probably little consolation that at her age, Kid would probably be stomping around regardless. Hormones at that age...oy. I remember it well.
Some day she will have her own teen daughter to deal with and you will sit back, be the super fun grandma, and smirk just a little.
Sending you a hug.
P.S. So is he still playing the gender change card?
It's probably little consolation that at her age, Kid would probably be stomping around regardless. Hormones at that age...oy. I remember it well.
Some day she will have her own teen daughter to deal with and you will sit back, be the super fun grandma, and smirk just a little.
Sending you a hug.
P.S. So is he still playing the gender change card?
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
it defies rationality, doesn't it?
cuz that is addiction at it's essence......insanity.
good for you for holding firm, regardless of what next stupid stunt he pulls. in his mind, he's a master class manipulator and therefore his tactics SHOULD be working. you SHOULD be saying, oh, ok, that's fine, we don't HAVE to obey the rules here, it's just our daughter's safety, no biggie, you're right, here's the precious cargo, have fun.
he's running out of excuses, but that doesn't mean he won't keep trying. i know it's a challenge, but try to convey to your daughter that this is a lesson for everyone on rules and consequences. and that the rules for her dad to spend time with her are very simple.....but his excuses are not going to change things.
now can i tell ya what i'd like to do to the schmuck?
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Originally Posted by Sasha1972 
But this crap is taking more and more of a toll on my relationship with Kid, as she transfers all her frustration with the situation onto me, because I'm the safe, reliable one. I understand why she reacts the way she does. But that does not make it any more enjoyable to have an angry tween glaring at me and stomping around because she can't go shopping with her father.
I'm so sorry that she can't see your side of this situation, even though I understand the why's as well as you do.
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If SoberLink is used properly, it provides safety for Kid, peace of mind for me, and a chance for ex to build an unquestionable track record of sobriety after a string of screwups. It's win-win-win. (He can even still get blind drunk when Kid isn't with him if he feels like it - I have no desire to monitor him 24/7). It boggles my mind why someone would treat this lightly, rather than as their great opportunity/last chance.
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So I did the cold b**** thing and told ex that in future I expected him to blow on schedule as a condition of increasing access to Kid. If I get a noncompliant (positive) test report, I'll contact him immediately so he can re-test within 15 minutes. If he doesn't blow as agreed, he doesn't get more time with Kid and he most definitely doesn't get in a car with her. Got back a long excuse, but he agreed not to "postpone" testing again.
Although it doesn't feel like it right now, it seems to me that you have the strategic advantage - he's showing all his cards at once in the effort to find the loopholes in the SoberLink agreement.
In regards to your daughter, it's just easier for her to take his side. I can't imagine the crap and heartbreak she would get from your ex if she tried to defend you. Is she still going to counseling?
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Originally Posted by Sasha1972
Yes, I did get a compliant test result later that evening, about twenty minutes after Kid came back...
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Thanks all. In the latest exciting development of this story, today I got a series of very conciliatory texts from ex saying in essence that he was very sorry, he would agree to whatever I wanted in terms of SoberLink use and he would not screw this up again. I think his lawyer may have dressed him down for not complying on the weekend.
I'm not naive enough to think this means that he really will be compliant now. But I took advantage of this opening to find the most restrictive SoberLink schedule I could, based on what courts have ordered in similar situations, and told him that this is what I want (the short version: testing 30 minutes before and after each visit and every two hours during the visit, testing immediately before and after getting in a car with Kid, any omissions/delays/positive tests mean that visits are suspended immediately and indefinitely). He agreed. Now I ask him to write up this agreement and give it to his lawyer for incorporation into an arbitration award (the outcome of the mediation/arbitration process we are slowly and painfully crawling through).
I doubt that he will comply with this for long. But when the almost-inevitable screwup happens, I now have evidence in writing from him that he agreed to this particular schedule, so it will be clear what commitment he's breaking if he screws up, if that makes any sense. Strategy, tactics, maneuvers ... not fun. The amount of mental and emotional effort that goes into this crap is remarkable.
I'm not naive enough to think this means that he really will be compliant now. But I took advantage of this opening to find the most restrictive SoberLink schedule I could, based on what courts have ordered in similar situations, and told him that this is what I want (the short version: testing 30 minutes before and after each visit and every two hours during the visit, testing immediately before and after getting in a car with Kid, any omissions/delays/positive tests mean that visits are suspended immediately and indefinitely). He agreed. Now I ask him to write up this agreement and give it to his lawyer for incorporation into an arbitration award (the outcome of the mediation/arbitration process we are slowly and painfully crawling through).
I doubt that he will comply with this for long. But when the almost-inevitable screwup happens, I now have evidence in writing from him that he agreed to this particular schedule, so it will be clear what commitment he's breaking if he screws up, if that makes any sense. Strategy, tactics, maneuvers ... not fun. The amount of mental and emotional effort that goes into this crap is remarkable.
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