Choice?
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Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr View Post
"An active alcoholic is incapable of love.....you are projecting
feelings that don't exist. I see so many posts of people shocked
when they leave an alcoholic, who quickly finds someone else. Alcoholics look
for enablers and quickly replace one for another"
This is what alcoholics do when they aren't ready/ don't choose recovery. Another enabler feeds into their denial so easily and conveniently........no effort required, no need to deal with all that messy reality.
"An active alcoholic is incapable of love.....you are projecting
feelings that don't exist. I see so many posts of people shocked
when they leave an alcoholic, who quickly finds someone else. Alcoholics look
for enablers and quickly replace one for another"
This is what alcoholics do when they aren't ready/ don't choose recovery. Another enabler feeds into their denial so easily and conveniently........no effort required, no need to deal with all that messy reality.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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This thread is really interesting - I need to bookmark it to come back and read everything in more detail.
One question that comes up for me with the issue of "choice" which I haven't seen addressed here is the emotion of fear. I was asking myself "so what do alcoholics think will happen if they DON'T take that drink or swallow that whole bunch of booze? Do they believe that something bad will happen? That they would be exposed to something intolerable or threatening (so that drinking because an imperative because they're afraid of whatever-it-is?)?". People can be motivated just as strongly by fear of an anticipated bad outcome if they don't perform an action as by hope of an anticipated good outcome if they do. Fear is also located in the oldest, most primitive part of the brain (besides the brain stem itself), so I can imagine that it could seem compelling and a matter of survival which might overrule knowledge that's carried in the "newer" brain (e.g. "drinking is not a good idea for the following reasons").
My brain isn't wired for addiction, so I can't understand this from the inside. I'm wondering if there are any double winners (or even single winners) who could comment on how fear gets tangled up with addiction.
One question that comes up for me with the issue of "choice" which I haven't seen addressed here is the emotion of fear. I was asking myself "so what do alcoholics think will happen if they DON'T take that drink or swallow that whole bunch of booze? Do they believe that something bad will happen? That they would be exposed to something intolerable or threatening (so that drinking because an imperative because they're afraid of whatever-it-is?)?". People can be motivated just as strongly by fear of an anticipated bad outcome if they don't perform an action as by hope of an anticipated good outcome if they do. Fear is also located in the oldest, most primitive part of the brain (besides the brain stem itself), so I can imagine that it could seem compelling and a matter of survival which might overrule knowledge that's carried in the "newer" brain (e.g. "drinking is not a good idea for the following reasons").
My brain isn't wired for addiction, so I can't understand this from the inside. I'm wondering if there are any double winners (or even single winners) who could comment on how fear gets tangled up with addiction.
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Join Date: Nov 2015
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Sometimes I get lost in circles when I think about my sister. Is she actually in the throes of active addiction, or is she displaying some sort of personality disorder? Knowing that her past drug history and dysfunctional behavior is most likely a manifestation of the sexual abuse she suffered helps me empathize with her. That knowledge helps me understand her motivations and reasons to act the way that she does.
But just because I understand and empathize with her doesn't mean that I agree her. I can use the knowledge of what motivates my sister to inform my own decisions, but I can't use that knowledge to influence hers.
NYCDogLvr said that active alcoholics are incapable of love. aliciagr stated that they're incapable of expressing it. I suspect the answer is somewhere in between. My sister has not taken care of my parents while they had cancer. When she had to do something for them, she expressed so much resentment we avoided asking her anything. My father even offered to pay her to help with mom (which I thought was a completely dumb idea) and she couldn't be bothered to show up on time. My dad gave up on the idea after a week.
That said, I think that if something happened to them, she would be the one who would be crying loudest at their funerals. She would be feeling their loss acutely, but would be unable to process that pain in a healthy way.
I remember when my mom walked into the pool and threatened to commit suicide. I had called my mother's doctor, and after three hours of back and forth, my mom finally checked herself into the hospital. I called my sister to tell her what was going on, and she said "I'm sorry, but I can't help but start laughing."
I thought what she said was especially cruel. But in her mind, my mom had been extremely manipulative and childish, and was merely receiving her just desserts. The fact that her favored daughter was the one blowing the whistle was especially delicious. My sister is so deep in her own pain she is incapable of acknowledging the pain of others. So as I sobbed on the phone she couldn't offer me any of the compassion she constantly demanded of others. Was she high? Who knows? In the end, does it really matter?
So at that moment, I was done. I just couldn't do it anymore. I was tired of the hatred she held for my mother, even as I knew it was really hatred for herself. Maybe a better person could handle it, maybe an actual professional could help her. But I'm not that person. I'm just me.
But just because I understand and empathize with her doesn't mean that I agree her. I can use the knowledge of what motivates my sister to inform my own decisions, but I can't use that knowledge to influence hers.
NYCDogLvr said that active alcoholics are incapable of love. aliciagr stated that they're incapable of expressing it. I suspect the answer is somewhere in between. My sister has not taken care of my parents while they had cancer. When she had to do something for them, she expressed so much resentment we avoided asking her anything. My father even offered to pay her to help with mom (which I thought was a completely dumb idea) and she couldn't be bothered to show up on time. My dad gave up on the idea after a week.
That said, I think that if something happened to them, she would be the one who would be crying loudest at their funerals. She would be feeling their loss acutely, but would be unable to process that pain in a healthy way.
I remember when my mom walked into the pool and threatened to commit suicide. I had called my mother's doctor, and after three hours of back and forth, my mom finally checked herself into the hospital. I called my sister to tell her what was going on, and she said "I'm sorry, but I can't help but start laughing."
I thought what she said was especially cruel. But in her mind, my mom had been extremely manipulative and childish, and was merely receiving her just desserts. The fact that her favored daughter was the one blowing the whistle was especially delicious. My sister is so deep in her own pain she is incapable of acknowledging the pain of others. So as I sobbed on the phone she couldn't offer me any of the compassion she constantly demanded of others. Was she high? Who knows? In the end, does it really matter?
So at that moment, I was done. I just couldn't do it anymore. I was tired of the hatred she held for my mother, even as I knew it was really hatred for herself. Maybe a better person could handle it, maybe an actual professional could help her. But I'm not that person. I'm just me.
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Puzzled, Sasha - you both might like to read this thread. I was looking at it earlier today and found it insightful/interesting. It goes into Fears, and also Caregiving by coincidence.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...14453-why.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...14453-why.html
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This has been a fantastic thread. I wanted to add a half-baked thought I had last night, in an effort to introduce an idea that "co-dependency" might be a little misunderstood (there are a whole body of scholarly articles on "co-dependency" as a pathological concept . . . sorry I don't have time to link, but if interested, they are easy to find.
The half-baked premise I am going to propose was created from a conglomerate of ideas - first, if you have studied Attachment Theory in psychology, you know that "Secure Attachment" is a positive thing and lack of secure attachment leads to different personality issues (again, not going into detail, but some people become avoidant, and have intimacy issues, etc.) . . . Then there is "Attachment Parenting," - a school of thought that takes Attachment Theory to a new level by introducing WAYS to increase attachment (such as Co-Sleeping/The Family Bed, etc.) . . . the bottom line is that Secure Attachment is valued as key to human potential/health.
Then all of a sudden, in the 70's or 80's I believe (???) the idea of "Co-dependency" took root in the addiction community - not sure if it was an off-shoot of John Bradshaw's work, or Pia Mellody's work, or other . . . Again, I apologize for the sloppiness of presenting these ideas, but I am just trying to give general background info . . .
Prior to that, in AA (in the 30's), the idea of "The Wife" as complicit in alcoholism took root . . . I think there's a chapter in the Big Book devoted to this idea . . . (and there are problems with this idea that have to do with sexism).
Fast forward to now and my half-baked theory: I managed my elderly mother's care for some 11 years, during which time she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. Her behavior was fairly benign, until the last few years, when she became aggressive (threw her food on the floor, swore at caregivers, had fits, basically) . . . during this time, she was put on anti-psychotic drugs, and anti-anxiety drugs which truly modified her behavior so that people COULD take care of her - left to her own devices, no one would have been able to take care of her - she acted out continuously and it was "CRAZYMAKING" . . .
To add another perspective that someone else brought up on this thread - there are people now diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) . . . this explains a person who is "very difficult," to say the least. The prior poster suggested that alcoholism might have more in common with ODD than a "disease." I agree with this premise.
The alcoholic I am dealing with ACTS OUT, is irrational, and very difficult. Having any kind of relationship with this person would be the same degree of insanity as having a relationship with my unmedicated mother who was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. No one would expect anyone to be able to live with an acting out Alzheimer's patient (though people do, and I honestly don't know how they do it). In the end, my mom had to go into Memory Care, where a team of people managed her and she was heavily medicated (not into zombie state, thankfully, but medicated, just the same).
I am suggesting that SOME alcoholics, are like Alzheimer's patients - their behavior is OUTRAGEOUS, irrational, and dangerous. To paint family members as "sick" for trying to deal with them, I believe, is pathologizing otherwise psychologically healthy family members - and yes, living with such craziness will make you crazy but it's not because you're "enabling" or "co-dependent" - remember attachment is a desired state and as human beings we attach to people we love - so it's not sick to be completely upset when someone you love becomes alcoholic and starts living in ways that do not promote health and well-being - ways of life that are completely dysfunctional and irrational.
What do you do at that point if you love someone who has "gone crazy" (just like if you love someone who has Alzheimer's)?
Just suggesting that pathologizing the healthy people and saying they are responsible for the alcoholic/addict or are "complicit" in the alcoholic/addict's "disease" is not helpful.
I do understand that some people like to label themselves as "co-dependent" or "codie" and that 12 step works for them - but there are others of us who don't buy into that model, and if you research scholarly articles, you can learn more about why that is the case. Just wanted to put that opinion out there.
The half-baked premise I am going to propose was created from a conglomerate of ideas - first, if you have studied Attachment Theory in psychology, you know that "Secure Attachment" is a positive thing and lack of secure attachment leads to different personality issues (again, not going into detail, but some people become avoidant, and have intimacy issues, etc.) . . . Then there is "Attachment Parenting," - a school of thought that takes Attachment Theory to a new level by introducing WAYS to increase attachment (such as Co-Sleeping/The Family Bed, etc.) . . . the bottom line is that Secure Attachment is valued as key to human potential/health.
Then all of a sudden, in the 70's or 80's I believe (???) the idea of "Co-dependency" took root in the addiction community - not sure if it was an off-shoot of John Bradshaw's work, or Pia Mellody's work, or other . . . Again, I apologize for the sloppiness of presenting these ideas, but I am just trying to give general background info . . .
Prior to that, in AA (in the 30's), the idea of "The Wife" as complicit in alcoholism took root . . . I think there's a chapter in the Big Book devoted to this idea . . . (and there are problems with this idea that have to do with sexism).
Fast forward to now and my half-baked theory: I managed my elderly mother's care for some 11 years, during which time she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. Her behavior was fairly benign, until the last few years, when she became aggressive (threw her food on the floor, swore at caregivers, had fits, basically) . . . during this time, she was put on anti-psychotic drugs, and anti-anxiety drugs which truly modified her behavior so that people COULD take care of her - left to her own devices, no one would have been able to take care of her - she acted out continuously and it was "CRAZYMAKING" . . .
To add another perspective that someone else brought up on this thread - there are people now diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) . . . this explains a person who is "very difficult," to say the least. The prior poster suggested that alcoholism might have more in common with ODD than a "disease." I agree with this premise.
The alcoholic I am dealing with ACTS OUT, is irrational, and very difficult. Having any kind of relationship with this person would be the same degree of insanity as having a relationship with my unmedicated mother who was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. No one would expect anyone to be able to live with an acting out Alzheimer's patient (though people do, and I honestly don't know how they do it). In the end, my mom had to go into Memory Care, where a team of people managed her and she was heavily medicated (not into zombie state, thankfully, but medicated, just the same).
I am suggesting that SOME alcoholics, are like Alzheimer's patients - their behavior is OUTRAGEOUS, irrational, and dangerous. To paint family members as "sick" for trying to deal with them, I believe, is pathologizing otherwise psychologically healthy family members - and yes, living with such craziness will make you crazy but it's not because you're "enabling" or "co-dependent" - remember attachment is a desired state and as human beings we attach to people we love - so it's not sick to be completely upset when someone you love becomes alcoholic and starts living in ways that do not promote health and well-being - ways of life that are completely dysfunctional and irrational.
What do you do at that point if you love someone who has "gone crazy" (just like if you love someone who has Alzheimer's)?
Just suggesting that pathologizing the healthy people and saying they are responsible for the alcoholic/addict or are "complicit" in the alcoholic/addict's "disease" is not helpful.
I do understand that some people like to label themselves as "co-dependent" or "codie" and that 12 step works for them - but there are others of us who don't buy into that model, and if you research scholarly articles, you can learn more about why that is the case. Just wanted to put that opinion out there.
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I was asking myself "so what do alcoholics think will happen if they DON'T take that drink or swallow that whole bunch of booze? Do they believe that something bad will happen? That they would be exposed to something intolerable or threatening (so that drinking because an imperative because they're afraid of whatever-it-is?)?".
first, not every alcoholic has the exact same relationship to alcohol, altho the results LOOK the same. alcoholics react differently to alcohol - their bodies and their minds assimilate and react to the substance in a way that does not occur for non-alcoholics. the alcohol becomes a balm for overwrought emotions, stress, depression, etc. it becomes the Go To solution. for many tho it isn't even as direct as that - they just drink cuz they drink. and they drink a lot.
have you ever tried to quit anything? coffee, cigarettes, cheese, chocolate? or have you ever been in PMS and if you do not get some damn chocolate right damn now someone is going to die???? have you ever, even temporarily, wanted something SO bad you could just cry? or done some crazy "stand in line for 6 hours in the freezing cold" at christmas to hopefully get one of those 500 only 'have to have" gifts? and turn out to be 503rd in line and go home empty handed?
we might chuckle about those fleeting moments of crazy, but they hold within them a brief insight into the life of an addict separated from their substance of choice. only addiction has the twin components of the Mental Obsession and Physical Compulsion. the phenomenon of craving is an intense experience - every cell in the being and brain are screaming for that balm, that go to thing. and they know that IF they can have a drink or take a hit or do a line, that the insanity and the shaking and the sickness will STOP.
that the STOP will be short lived is not the point, nor the concern. when you feel like you are being attacked by wasps, swarming and buzzing and stinging, you'll jump into the nearest body of water without worrying about the alligators and the snakes.
thankfully except in extreme cases or perhaps what we are seeing so tragically with the opiate epidemic right now, addicts DO get moments of clarity. moments where the door cracks open and they can see the other side. they can see not only that there MIGHT be another way, but that there simply HAS TO BE, because they don't know if they can keep going as they are.
before the internet, a person would pick up the phone book, look thru the A's until they saw the number for AA. or they'd make an appointment to see their doctor. or they'd call up on of the few treatment centers around. recovery was spread more by word of mouth. and they'd walk into their first AA meeting, humble, desperate and willing.
today i don't see how anyone can not know of paths to recovery. i don't understand the negativity against AA and other 12 step programs. in fact often it seems those that pitch the biggest fits against a spiritual program are those who seem most in need of one....they remain defiant, miserable and unable to get out of their own way.
first, not every alcoholic has the exact same relationship to alcohol, altho the results LOOK the same. alcoholics react differently to alcohol - their bodies and their minds assimilate and react to the substance in a way that does not occur for non-alcoholics. the alcohol becomes a balm for overwrought emotions, stress, depression, etc. it becomes the Go To solution. for many tho it isn't even as direct as that - they just drink cuz they drink. and they drink a lot.
have you ever tried to quit anything? coffee, cigarettes, cheese, chocolate? or have you ever been in PMS and if you do not get some damn chocolate right damn now someone is going to die???? have you ever, even temporarily, wanted something SO bad you could just cry? or done some crazy "stand in line for 6 hours in the freezing cold" at christmas to hopefully get one of those 500 only 'have to have" gifts? and turn out to be 503rd in line and go home empty handed?
we might chuckle about those fleeting moments of crazy, but they hold within them a brief insight into the life of an addict separated from their substance of choice. only addiction has the twin components of the Mental Obsession and Physical Compulsion. the phenomenon of craving is an intense experience - every cell in the being and brain are screaming for that balm, that go to thing. and they know that IF they can have a drink or take a hit or do a line, that the insanity and the shaking and the sickness will STOP.
that the STOP will be short lived is not the point, nor the concern. when you feel like you are being attacked by wasps, swarming and buzzing and stinging, you'll jump into the nearest body of water without worrying about the alligators and the snakes.
thankfully except in extreme cases or perhaps what we are seeing so tragically with the opiate epidemic right now, addicts DO get moments of clarity. moments where the door cracks open and they can see the other side. they can see not only that there MIGHT be another way, but that there simply HAS TO BE, because they don't know if they can keep going as they are.
before the internet, a person would pick up the phone book, look thru the A's until they saw the number for AA. or they'd make an appointment to see their doctor. or they'd call up on of the few treatment centers around. recovery was spread more by word of mouth. and they'd walk into their first AA meeting, humble, desperate and willing.
today i don't see how anyone can not know of paths to recovery. i don't understand the negativity against AA and other 12 step programs. in fact often it seems those that pitch the biggest fits against a spiritual program are those who seem most in need of one....they remain defiant, miserable and unable to get out of their own way.
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So to answer the question about choice, I believe it is a choice - a maladaptive attempt as Abraham Hicks says to find RELIEF . . . so no judgment about the attempt - I do feel for the people who try to help - no one wants to see anyone suffer and it is human nature to try to help loved ones.
Some alcoholics can have fairly "normal" lives - have jobs, families, etc. Those that cannot manage this are so much harder for family members to watch in the cycle of destruction.
No one wants to see someone they love on the streets, for instance - but this is fact of life for many - those "choices" do not seem logical or sane, but they do seem to be choices or perhaps the person feels too hopeless to make healthier choices, which again, makes me feel sad FOR them - and I know there is nothing I can do, which makes me feel helpless. It's all just too sad.
Some alcoholics can have fairly "normal" lives - have jobs, families, etc. Those that cannot manage this are so much harder for family members to watch in the cycle of destruction.
No one wants to see someone they love on the streets, for instance - but this is fact of life for many - those "choices" do not seem logical or sane, but they do seem to be choices or perhaps the person feels too hopeless to make healthier choices, which again, makes me feel sad FOR them - and I know there is nothing I can do, which makes me feel helpless. It's all just too sad.
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Originally Posted by seek 
So to answer the question about choice, I believe it is a choice - a maladaptive attempt as Abraham Hicks says to find RELIEF . . . so no judgment about the attempt - I do feel for the people who try to help - no one wants to see anyone suffer and it is human nature to try to help loved ones.
Some alcoholics can have fairly "normal" lives - have jobs, families, etc. Those that cannot manage this are so much harder for family members to watch in the cycle of destruction.
No one wants to see someone they love on the streets, for instance - but this is fact of life for many - those "choices" do not seem logical or sane, but they do seem to be choices or perhaps the person feels too hopeless to make healthier choices, which again, makes me feel sad FOR them - and I know there is nothing I can do, which makes me feel helpless. It's all just too sad.
Some alcoholics can have fairly "normal" lives - have jobs, families, etc. Those that cannot manage this are so much harder for family members to watch in the cycle of destruction.
No one wants to see someone they love on the streets, for instance - but this is fact of life for many - those "choices" do not seem logical or sane, but they do seem to be choices or perhaps the person feels too hopeless to make healthier choices, which again, makes me feel sad FOR them - and I know there is nothing I can do, which makes me feel helpless. It's all just too sad.
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Originally Posted by Sasha1972
. I was asking myself "so what do alcoholics think will happen if they DON'T take that drink or swallow that whole bunch of booze? Do they believe that something bad will happen? a for the following reasons").
reality.
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I wrote about my experience with manipulation here...
Whether you want to call it codependent or learned, maladaptive behaviors is entirely up to you. But I agree with seek in that I don't believe it is a brain disorder. But these learned, maladaptive behaviors can make us quite sick--people we don't recognize any longer.
I should be clear in that I believe that no one is responsible for someone else's addiction.
I do believe that our compassion can be used against us and allow the addiction to continue. My stepson is still using and drinking. He continues to find people who will take him in, buy him clothes, pay for his phone, etc. His two brothers took him in when he was about to be homeless while my husband was still alive. They complained that we (the late Mr. Seren, my stepdaughter, and I) had turned our backs on him and that we should help him, but since we weren't, they were going to. Well, I can't tell you how much that hurt, but we did not say a peep.
At first, my stepson stayed with one brother and his family. He was supposed to get a job and not drink. He never got a job, drank, and made a weird, drunken pass at his neice and one of her friends. So out he went. Then he was allowed to live in an empty house belonging to the other brother. Eventually, his behavior and drinking caused him to be kicked out of that house, too. So, one of the brothers drove him back to the town in which he had been living prior to them rescuing him.
In that situation, our choice (Mr. Seren, stepdaughter and I) was to not take him in because we know how manipulative he is and how it has never, ever worked to help him before.
His brothers chose to assist him. They were rewarded with some pretty outrageous and abonimable behavior and abuse from my stepson.
Since then, he has had a series of friends and girlfriends (all thinking ill of us for 'abandoning him') take him in and try to 'help' him. All with similar results ending in him being asked to leave.
All of these people, us included, contributed to his ongoing drinking and drug use by taking care of everything for him and cleaning up after the problems and chaos his use created. Why would he stop? He has had no reason to do so. I refer you to DesertEyes' own explanation of his prior behavior in active addiction as he would look for the next couch on which to stay.
So today, I choose to tell him I love him and that I hope he is OK. And I pray for him. But I will no longer offer to pay for or do anything for him.
Originally Posted by Seren
Most people I meet are kind-hearted, compassionate, and loving members of this human family. So when we love someone who struggles with addiction, this compassionate nature compels us to try anything and everything we can to help.
Early in this dance with an addicted loved one, we have hope. When our loved one shows even the smallest signs of wanting to recover, we are overjoyed! We forgive and forget all about the bad behavior, the ugly language, the name calling, the abandonment we felt when the DOC was pursued to the ends of the earth and we were ignored, passed over, disregarded, disrespected, or even abused.
Then it happens again, a binge, the old pattern of drinking/using...we are stunned, and yet we forgive and forget again when we hear that sweet language of "I'm sorry! I won't ever drink/use again!" because "it was just a slip, he/she really means it this time!" And life may go on fairly well for a while.
Then it happens again, another slip, another binge, the return of the same old pattern of drinking/using and behavior. Now, we are more cautious. We aren't really sure about our hope and about our loved one. We begin to wonder whether or not things will ever really change.
But we feel that we must be good and forgiving and loving, that it is our job, our role in life to always be supportive no matter what. Thoughts like "How could I push him/her out of my life when he/she needs me so much!" constantly run through our minds. And so we continue to allow our addicted loved one to be part of our lives even part of our homes.
Now, we have trained our loved one that whatever they do to us or against us is OK. We will always let them back into our life no matter what. We will always provide them with a soft place to land, clean up after their messes, fix their mistakes, give them money, food, shelter, clothing, take care of their every need--because that is what loving, forgiving, compassionate, helpful people do, right?
Now our compassion begins to be used against us as a weapon and a tool by the master manipulator--addiction, in order to keep us in our role as enabler, fixer, helper.
...
Early in this dance with an addicted loved one, we have hope. When our loved one shows even the smallest signs of wanting to recover, we are overjoyed! We forgive and forget all about the bad behavior, the ugly language, the name calling, the abandonment we felt when the DOC was pursued to the ends of the earth and we were ignored, passed over, disregarded, disrespected, or even abused.
Then it happens again, a binge, the old pattern of drinking/using...we are stunned, and yet we forgive and forget again when we hear that sweet language of "I'm sorry! I won't ever drink/use again!" because "it was just a slip, he/she really means it this time!" And life may go on fairly well for a while.
Then it happens again, another slip, another binge, the return of the same old pattern of drinking/using and behavior. Now, we are more cautious. We aren't really sure about our hope and about our loved one. We begin to wonder whether or not things will ever really change.
But we feel that we must be good and forgiving and loving, that it is our job, our role in life to always be supportive no matter what. Thoughts like "How could I push him/her out of my life when he/she needs me so much!" constantly run through our minds. And so we continue to allow our addicted loved one to be part of our lives even part of our homes.
Now, we have trained our loved one that whatever they do to us or against us is OK. We will always let them back into our life no matter what. We will always provide them with a soft place to land, clean up after their messes, fix their mistakes, give them money, food, shelter, clothing, take care of their every need--because that is what loving, forgiving, compassionate, helpful people do, right?
Now our compassion begins to be used against us as a weapon and a tool by the master manipulator--addiction, in order to keep us in our role as enabler, fixer, helper.
...
I should be clear in that I believe that no one is responsible for someone else's addiction.
I do believe that our compassion can be used against us and allow the addiction to continue. My stepson is still using and drinking. He continues to find people who will take him in, buy him clothes, pay for his phone, etc. His two brothers took him in when he was about to be homeless while my husband was still alive. They complained that we (the late Mr. Seren, my stepdaughter, and I) had turned our backs on him and that we should help him, but since we weren't, they were going to. Well, I can't tell you how much that hurt, but we did not say a peep.
At first, my stepson stayed with one brother and his family. He was supposed to get a job and not drink. He never got a job, drank, and made a weird, drunken pass at his neice and one of her friends. So out he went. Then he was allowed to live in an empty house belonging to the other brother. Eventually, his behavior and drinking caused him to be kicked out of that house, too. So, one of the brothers drove him back to the town in which he had been living prior to them rescuing him.
In that situation, our choice (Mr. Seren, stepdaughter and I) was to not take him in because we know how manipulative he is and how it has never, ever worked to help him before.
His brothers chose to assist him. They were rewarded with some pretty outrageous and abonimable behavior and abuse from my stepson.
Since then, he has had a series of friends and girlfriends (all thinking ill of us for 'abandoning him') take him in and try to 'help' him. All with similar results ending in him being asked to leave.
All of these people, us included, contributed to his ongoing drinking and drug use by taking care of everything for him and cleaning up after the problems and chaos his use created. Why would he stop? He has had no reason to do so. I refer you to DesertEyes' own explanation of his prior behavior in active addiction as he would look for the next couch on which to stay.
So today, I choose to tell him I love him and that I hope he is OK. And I pray for him. But I will no longer offer to pay for or do anything for him.
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Join Date: Mar 2016
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I had a thought so I will ask it here since people are being respectful to the topic.
I have some experience both with therapeutic treatments that my husband went through & for myself as a family member. I also have experience with 12 step because of the one rehab he was in, his mother, and Alanon plus this forum.
The doctors have never said my husband has a disease. They have only explained how the brain changes with use. Once the substance is removed the brain regulates, and new pathways are formed if needed.
He has been viewed as capable of making choices, and capable of ending his addiction by understanding why he used, looking at the underlying issues, learning new coping skills. Therapy, antidepressants at the moment. But we also discussed how there were periods of time when he was not able to make healthy choices, clearly see the consequences, and this is when "help" was needed to get him to the people (Drs) in my husbands case - who could get him going in the right direction, and back on under his own steam.
I have a problem understanding how AA and Alanon can view addiction as a choice, but then say a person must use the program for the rest of their life otherwise they most likely will go back to using.
Its basically saying they have a life sentence and can choose to work the program and be in remission, but they cannot choose to stop on their own and go about their life?
But then I see lots of posts OFF the family forum where people do just that with therapy, rational recovery, a plan they create on their own.
It seems choice in itself could have a convoluted meaning?
I have some experience both with therapeutic treatments that my husband went through & for myself as a family member. I also have experience with 12 step because of the one rehab he was in, his mother, and Alanon plus this forum.
The doctors have never said my husband has a disease. They have only explained how the brain changes with use. Once the substance is removed the brain regulates, and new pathways are formed if needed.
He has been viewed as capable of making choices, and capable of ending his addiction by understanding why he used, looking at the underlying issues, learning new coping skills. Therapy, antidepressants at the moment. But we also discussed how there were periods of time when he was not able to make healthy choices, clearly see the consequences, and this is when "help" was needed to get him to the people (Drs) in my husbands case - who could get him going in the right direction, and back on under his own steam.
I have a problem understanding how AA and Alanon can view addiction as a choice, but then say a person must use the program for the rest of their life otherwise they most likely will go back to using.
Its basically saying they have a life sentence and can choose to work the program and be in remission, but they cannot choose to stop on their own and go about their life?
But then I see lots of posts OFF the family forum where people do just that with therapy, rational recovery, a plan they create on their own.
It seems choice in itself could have a convoluted meaning?
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,944
There are many, many paths to recovery for an addict or alcoholic. Some do it completely on their own...I know that one of our Mods just used SR.
Some have found a great deal of success with AA.
Some have found a great deal of success with counseling.
Some have found a great deal of success with SMART or Rational Recovery.
Some have found a great deal of success with Celebrate Recovery.
Some, sadly, never find recovery at all.
If my stepson would only, finally, choose to stop drinking and using, I would be very happy. I don't care what method he used.
I don't think there is any reason to criticize any sort of recovery that works for someone.
Some have found a great deal of success with AA.
Some have found a great deal of success with counseling.
Some have found a great deal of success with SMART or Rational Recovery.
Some have found a great deal of success with Celebrate Recovery.
Some, sadly, never find recovery at all.
If my stepson would only, finally, choose to stop drinking and using, I would be very happy. I don't care what method he used.
I don't think there is any reason to criticize any sort of recovery that works for someone.
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
Big Book, Chapter 2, There is a Solution excerpt:
None of us makes a sole vocation of this work, nor do we
think its effectiveness would be increased if we did. We feel
that elimination of our drinking is but a beginning. A much
more important demonstration of our principles lies before
us in our respective homes, occupations and affairs. All of us
spend much of our spare time in the sort of effort which we
are going to describe. A few are fortunate enough to be so
situated that they can give nearly all their time to the work.
it helps if you have actually read the book........
None of us makes a sole vocation of this work, nor do we
think its effectiveness would be increased if we did. We feel
that elimination of our drinking is but a beginning. A much
more important demonstration of our principles lies before
us in our respective homes, occupations and affairs. All of us
spend much of our spare time in the sort of effort which we
are going to describe. A few are fortunate enough to be so
situated that they can give nearly all their time to the work.
it helps if you have actually read the book........
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by aliciagr
eded.
I have a problem understanding how AA and Alanon can view addiction as a choice, but then say a person must use the program for the rest of their life otherwise they most likely will go back to using.
Its basically saying they have a life sentence and can choose to work the program and be in remission, but they cannot choose to stop on their own and go about their life?
I have a problem understanding how AA and Alanon can view addiction as a choice, but then say a person must use the program for the rest of their life otherwise they most likely will go back to using.
Its basically saying they have a life sentence and can choose to work the program and be in remission, but they cannot choose to stop on their own and go about their life?
it views it as a spiritual malady.
to get a better understanding of the program of AA, i suggest reading the big book.
where you will find AA said back 70 years ago it isnt the only way and encourages people to seek out what ever help they can.
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 844
I agree, people should not criticize anyone else beliefs, or the issues they are dealing with, or the methods by which they find help and healing.
I am asking for clarification on "choice" by the many people who have posted from the 12 step side. When they talk of "choice" is it the ability an addict has to stop on their own. That is a choice. Or is it the ability to make a choice and join the program, and through that continued guidance they will be able to stop? I hope thats not offensive, as it wasnt my intent.
I feel my husband was unable to make the choice to seek treatment at certain points. At other times I feel he was more open to it and responsive to various external forces.
I think that staying stopped is challenging, but that he has the choice to do so on his own, or by seeking help (in whatever way works for him) if he chooses.
Anvil, we had the AA big book at home actually. It came from the rehab my husband was in, and I didnt read all of it as Im not an alcoholic, but I do have an interest and have went through parts of it, and discussed some of it with my husband. Ive also went to AA meetings with him, and I found the shares and the speaker interesting.
Probably more than my husband did at the time.
I will bow out of this thread as I see where its going, and I have no interest in anything that isnt helpful or healing for me.
Good Luck with your family member and your own health and healing Seren.
I am asking for clarification on "choice" by the many people who have posted from the 12 step side. When they talk of "choice" is it the ability an addict has to stop on their own. That is a choice. Or is it the ability to make a choice and join the program, and through that continued guidance they will be able to stop? I hope thats not offensive, as it wasnt my intent.
I feel my husband was unable to make the choice to seek treatment at certain points. At other times I feel he was more open to it and responsive to various external forces.
I think that staying stopped is challenging, but that he has the choice to do so on his own, or by seeking help (in whatever way works for him) if he chooses.
Anvil, we had the AA big book at home actually. It came from the rehab my husband was in, and I didnt read all of it as Im not an alcoholic, but I do have an interest and have went through parts of it, and discussed some of it with my husband. Ive also went to AA meetings with him, and I found the shares and the speaker interesting.
Probably more than my husband did at the time.
I will bow out of this thread as I see where its going, and I have no interest in anything that isnt helpful or healing for me.
Good Luck with your family member and your own health and healing Seren.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
i think it reads like a misunderstanding of AA's program,alicia. im hurtin a bit and exhausted-been up since 4- and havin a hard time tryin to get into type what is in my melon.the reason i cut my last reply short.
you could find the bb online to read.the doctors opinion and chaper 2 and 3 may answer your questions better than i can type at this time.
you could find the bb online to read.the doctors opinion and chaper 2 and 3 may answer your questions better than i can type at this time.
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I suppose in the interest of full disclosure...
I do not attend Al-Anon meetings. I have been to approximately 3 in my life. I have not read the Big Book of AA, I have not read up on AVRT from Rational Recovery or any of the SMART Recovery or Celebrate Recovery material. I have relied on SR almost exclusively as I try to understand addiction -- to the extent possible for someone who is not addicted -- and learn ways to protect myself from the chaos and anxiety of my stepson's continued use.
So I'm afraid that I cannot speak to how someone in AA views choice as it relates to active addiction or even continued sobriety.
I do not attend Al-Anon meetings. I have been to approximately 3 in my life. I have not read the Big Book of AA, I have not read up on AVRT from Rational Recovery or any of the SMART Recovery or Celebrate Recovery material. I have relied on SR almost exclusively as I try to understand addiction -- to the extent possible for someone who is not addicted -- and learn ways to protect myself from the chaos and anxiety of my stepson's continued use.
So I'm afraid that I cannot speak to how someone in AA views choice as it relates to active addiction or even continued sobriety.
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Originally Posted by aliciagr
I have a problem understanding how AA and Alanon can view addiction as a choice, but then say a person must use the program for the rest of their life otherwise they most likely will go back to using.
Its basically saying they have a life sentence and can choose to work the program and be in remission, but they cannot choose to stop on their own and go about their life?
Its basically saying they have a life sentence and can choose to work the program and be in remission, but they cannot choose to stop on their own and go about their life?
My understanding from the majority of members here who use AA is that that attitude is *not* one of the tenets of AA. The paragraph that Anvil shared above is the first time I have read that--and it is from the Big Book of AA. It seems to indicate that there is more to recovery than just stopping drinking--that it is also learning to deal with life on life's terms and getting back to living one's life. It also seems to suggest that AA does not work for everyone.
I guess AA, as tomsteve shared, considers addiction a spiritual malady. This, for an atheist, is problematic. That is why there are other paths that can be taken to recovery. There are even non-spiritual programs for friends and family members through SMART, or even through a program called CRAFT.
We aren't all special snowflakes, but we can find what works for each of us!
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
Posts: 816
I believe there are as many reasons for addictions as there are
paths to recovery. To choose one way and continually question
its value when it has helped millions is tunnel vision. Take what
works and leave the rest. If it doesn't work for you, find one that
does and have compassion and gratitude for the recovery it brings.
It's ok if one doesn't work for you, what's most important
is to find the one that does, share how it has helped, and never give up.
paths to recovery. To choose one way and continually question
its value when it has helped millions is tunnel vision. Take what
works and leave the rest. If it doesn't work for you, find one that
does and have compassion and gratitude for the recovery it brings.
It's ok if one doesn't work for you, what's most important
is to find the one that does, share how it has helped, and never give up.
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