Frustrating evening
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,618
Frustrating evening
So this evening I have a preteen who's mad at me because I won't drive her to visit her alcoholic father two evenings in a row (I'm dealing with a semi-crisis family-of-origin situation plus work ramping up, I don't have the time to sit in Dunkin Donuts two nights in a row while Kid and ex play video games or whatever they do at his place).
I have an alcoholic ex who appears to think that acknowledging he has a problem with drinking is the same thing as actually doing something about it, and wants unrestricted time with Kid. (For those coming late to this saga, ex's unsupervised time with Kid is restricted to two hours with no driving because he attempted to drive drunk with Kid early this summer. I am the bad guy who is vindictively depriving a little girl of her father, the controlling b!tch, etc etc blah blah).
(I also have an alcoholic ex who, when I arrived to pick up Kid this evening, was outside his place talking to some scruffy man in an old van with the engine running, and appeared to be passing something through the window. Scruffy man and van look like what you'd get if you ordered "seedy drug dealer" from Central Casting. I know this proves nothing and is not my business, but it's just another moment of "crap, is there something else going on I should know about?". Ex's current live-in girlfriend is a meth addict, allegedly not using now).
I told Kid that if her father was willing to come over to my place tomorrow, the two of them could go (on foot) to the ice cream place for a visit. This does not placate Kid, probably because she knows the likelihood of her father actually following through is small.
I have tied myself in knots facilitating Kid's access to her father. I've taken her to visit him in psychiatric wards and inpatient rehabs. I have picked up the pieces after ex and his previous wife had physical fights that ended in police calls, with Kid present. I have spent thousands of hours that I will never get back trying to sort out the problem of Kid and her father. I have not received a dime in child support despite Kid living with me full time for nearly a year while her father spirals downward.
So right now Kid is mad at me and not talking to me because I'm the person who it's safe for her to be mad at, ex is egging her on because playing the victim is what he does (it's always someone else's fault), and because this is a great way of triangulating Kid and Dad against mean, vindictive and unforgiving Mom.
If anyone has any ESH along the lines of "you're doing the right thing, given your situation Kid should not be spending extended unsupervised periods with Dad", or "preteen girls are drama llamas and if it wasn't this it would be something else", or "Kid will not hate you forever because even though she really wants to see her father she also has the evidence of her eyes that he's a mess" ... I would appreciate it. I hate being pushed into the role of mean old Mommy, and I don't know how to preserve my bond with Kid, as she's being told that I am the enemy.
Sometimes being the only adult in the situation really sucks.
I have an alcoholic ex who appears to think that acknowledging he has a problem with drinking is the same thing as actually doing something about it, and wants unrestricted time with Kid. (For those coming late to this saga, ex's unsupervised time with Kid is restricted to two hours with no driving because he attempted to drive drunk with Kid early this summer. I am the bad guy who is vindictively depriving a little girl of her father, the controlling b!tch, etc etc blah blah).
(I also have an alcoholic ex who, when I arrived to pick up Kid this evening, was outside his place talking to some scruffy man in an old van with the engine running, and appeared to be passing something through the window. Scruffy man and van look like what you'd get if you ordered "seedy drug dealer" from Central Casting. I know this proves nothing and is not my business, but it's just another moment of "crap, is there something else going on I should know about?". Ex's current live-in girlfriend is a meth addict, allegedly not using now).
I told Kid that if her father was willing to come over to my place tomorrow, the two of them could go (on foot) to the ice cream place for a visit. This does not placate Kid, probably because she knows the likelihood of her father actually following through is small.
I have tied myself in knots facilitating Kid's access to her father. I've taken her to visit him in psychiatric wards and inpatient rehabs. I have picked up the pieces after ex and his previous wife had physical fights that ended in police calls, with Kid present. I have spent thousands of hours that I will never get back trying to sort out the problem of Kid and her father. I have not received a dime in child support despite Kid living with me full time for nearly a year while her father spirals downward.
So right now Kid is mad at me and not talking to me because I'm the person who it's safe for her to be mad at, ex is egging her on because playing the victim is what he does (it's always someone else's fault), and because this is a great way of triangulating Kid and Dad against mean, vindictive and unforgiving Mom.
If anyone has any ESH along the lines of "you're doing the right thing, given your situation Kid should not be spending extended unsupervised periods with Dad", or "preteen girls are drama llamas and if it wasn't this it would be something else", or "Kid will not hate you forever because even though she really wants to see her father she also has the evidence of her eyes that he's a mess" ... I would appreciate it. I hate being pushed into the role of mean old Mommy, and I don't know how to preserve my bond with Kid, as she's being told that I am the enemy.
Sometimes being the only adult in the situation really sucks.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Sasha......I think that you already see that preteen girls can be dramatic.....
Having raised three kids, I understand your feelings as a parent.....
I can also see that you already know that boundaries are sooo important for them. Boundaries that are consistent. Delivered CALMLY, but firmly. Even if they get obnoxious....they still derive their sense of security from the boundaries....
***and, I can tell you...it is best that they get used to the idea that you are the parent...before they reach the actual teenage years....
I can share with you what helped me, when I had kids of this age....
I had to remind myself, over and over, that the primary role of the parent was to be TEACHER.....to teach them what they need to know in order to fact the adult world, some day....Pleasing them for every whim was beside the point...but, preparing them for adulthood and keeping them safe was.
I had to remind myself, over and over....that I must not stoop to their level...ever...in an argument. No shouting...no endless "debating"....no giving in, out of just frustration. I knew that if I gave in or changed my mind about something they wanted...there had to be a GOOD, well thought out reason....
LOL...my exhaustion was not a valid reason....
I am not saying that it is easy, at all....I had to resolve, every day to be the best teacher and guide that I could be for them....
One technique that worked pretty well, for me...was this...If they were angry about something...I would ask them to sit at the kitchen table with me...and I told them that I wanted to hear what they had to say...for fifteen minutes..no matter what it was, and, that I wanted to listen....There was no gurantees that I would change my mind....but, they seemed to like the idea that I would focus on them and listen to their feelings......
Lol...it was a sort of version of getting to have their say in "court".....
I would suggest that if she "isn't talking to you"....don't let it show that it is bothering you.....same way as you would with a toddler who is having a tantrum...you just step over them, and go on about your own activities.....
They catch on that they can't manipulate you that way......
By the way, I think you are being more than generous with accommodating her wishes to visit her father....especially, under these circumstances.....
I appreciate how hard it is to have boundaries in this mercurial circumstance....
But, some regular type of schedule for her and him might be the way to go....
You need that for your own sanity......
Having raised three kids, I understand your feelings as a parent.....
I can also see that you already know that boundaries are sooo important for them. Boundaries that are consistent. Delivered CALMLY, but firmly. Even if they get obnoxious....they still derive their sense of security from the boundaries....
***and, I can tell you...it is best that they get used to the idea that you are the parent...before they reach the actual teenage years....
I can share with you what helped me, when I had kids of this age....
I had to remind myself, over and over, that the primary role of the parent was to be TEACHER.....to teach them what they need to know in order to fact the adult world, some day....Pleasing them for every whim was beside the point...but, preparing them for adulthood and keeping them safe was.
I had to remind myself, over and over....that I must not stoop to their level...ever...in an argument. No shouting...no endless "debating"....no giving in, out of just frustration. I knew that if I gave in or changed my mind about something they wanted...there had to be a GOOD, well thought out reason....
LOL...my exhaustion was not a valid reason....
I am not saying that it is easy, at all....I had to resolve, every day to be the best teacher and guide that I could be for them....
One technique that worked pretty well, for me...was this...If they were angry about something...I would ask them to sit at the kitchen table with me...and I told them that I wanted to hear what they had to say...for fifteen minutes..no matter what it was, and, that I wanted to listen....There was no gurantees that I would change my mind....but, they seemed to like the idea that I would focus on them and listen to their feelings......
Lol...it was a sort of version of getting to have their say in "court".....
I would suggest that if she "isn't talking to you"....don't let it show that it is bothering you.....same way as you would with a toddler who is having a tantrum...you just step over them, and go on about your own activities.....
They catch on that they can't manipulate you that way......
By the way, I think you are being more than generous with accommodating her wishes to visit her father....especially, under these circumstances.....
I appreciate how hard it is to have boundaries in this mercurial circumstance....
But, some regular type of schedule for her and him might be the way to go....
You need that for your own sanity......
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Sasha, I can tell you everything you want to hear is true. I didn't have girls, but boys are just as good at giving you the silent treatment when they aren't getting their way. So YES, you would no doubt be having these battles even in a different situation. And YES, you will both survive and will have a good relationship in the end. Hang in there, mom--I think you are doing GREAT under difficult circumstances.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Wareham, Mass
Posts: 7,067
Sasha, I think you nailed it when you said she was mad at you because it's safe to be mad at you.
Kids act out with the people they know care and won't punish them for their feelings.
When I taught, my students came to me in my science room because I was a Special subjects teacher and that was how it worked.
My grade 4s had a very controlling classroom teacher who had her thumb on them all the time.
They would act out so badly when they came to me (and other spec. Sub. Teachers) because they knew they could do so in a safe space.
It could be difficult at times, but we managed.
Calm but firm, as Dandy said.
All will be well in time.
Kids act out with the people they know care and won't punish them for their feelings.
When I taught, my students came to me in my science room because I was a Special subjects teacher and that was how it worked.
My grade 4s had a very controlling classroom teacher who had her thumb on them all the time.
They would act out so badly when they came to me (and other spec. Sub. Teachers) because they knew they could do so in a safe space.
It could be difficult at times, but we managed.
Calm but firm, as Dandy said.
All will be well in time.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
Oh boy. I have two drama momma girls. I do completely understand that.
I also agree that you are the parent that it's safe to be mad at. Stay the course. When I am going through things that cause conflict w/my girls, I keep it quick and casual. Counseling sessions are for diving in deep or when they come to me and want to talk. I find I have tried to overexplain myself many times, which just makes them more frustrated to basically not be getting their way.
A day at a time friend.
I also agree that you are the parent that it's safe to be mad at. Stay the course. When I am going through things that cause conflict w/my girls, I keep it quick and casual. Counseling sessions are for diving in deep or when they come to me and want to talk. I find I have tried to overexplain myself many times, which just makes them more frustrated to basically not be getting their way.
A day at a time friend.
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,792
Sasha,
I am just rooting you on. Its' tough being a mom and doing tough mom's jobs. I'm
sorry, maybe Dad will get his shxt together and get his license back so he can see his kid. Your child is just deflecting his anger and disappointment on you, of his Dad. Stick to your guns, do the one night a week. If Dad really wanted to come he will make an effort.
Don't give in, or he will know how to work you in the future. This is how us codies get into trouble in the first place. Don't back down, you are not being an irresponsible mom. He just wants what he wants , tough!! Hugs !!
I am just rooting you on. Its' tough being a mom and doing tough mom's jobs. I'm
sorry, maybe Dad will get his shxt together and get his license back so he can see his kid. Your child is just deflecting his anger and disappointment on you, of his Dad. Stick to your guns, do the one night a week. If Dad really wanted to come he will make an effort.
Don't give in, or he will know how to work you in the future. This is how us codies get into trouble in the first place. Don't back down, you are not being an irresponsible mom. He just wants what he wants , tough!! Hugs !!
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: The Beach
Posts: 1,106
Sasha, You are doing a great job with your daughter in far less than perfect circumstances.
My children are young adults now, I have a daughter and a son. I can tell you with no shadow of a doubt that my girl was WAY harder to parent as a tween and a teen. That isn't to say my son didn't come with his own set of challenges, he most certainly did, (especially since he was the only one still home when his father and I split up). I've seen it play outwith literally all the other female children in my circle... they become these raging,crying,flailing little balls of fury and rage and they break down into a sobbing mess before throwing up the silent treatment and/or 'hunger strike'.
I liked when my daughter would get to the silent treatment part, it was a break from the dervish! My son's go to was nothing but silent treatment... and I wish he would emote! Parenting is so tough...and sometimes it hurts like hell. Rest assured, from everything you have told us, you are doing an AWESOME job and I encourage you to keep doing exactly what you are doing.
My daughter is 23 now and one of my very best friends. I don't dwell on the times that were sad, stressful, infuriating for both of us... it was my job to be her parent NOT her friend when she was a child/tween/teen. I don't regret my parenting choices that helped guide her into the beautiful human being and loving friend she is, not only to me but to so many other people as well.
BTW, during the worst of times with my (then) teenage daughter I called my mum in tears many times and apologized for what I had put her through. My daughter has apologized to me several times in recent years as well. For some reason it just seems like the majority of girls go through the crazies for a few years when those hormones kick in. It isn't fair but in my case, and in most cases I see moms and daughters being closer then ever when all is said and I done. I feel confident you and your girl are going to be just fine. She will one day be mature enough to see the whole picture and be so proud and so thankful of what you did for her despite how rotten she behaved sometimes
Keep up the good work, you are fighting the good fight, and you ARE winning, even if it doesn't feel like it right now.
BIG MUMMA HUGS from me to you girlfriend.
My children are young adults now, I have a daughter and a son. I can tell you with no shadow of a doubt that my girl was WAY harder to parent as a tween and a teen. That isn't to say my son didn't come with his own set of challenges, he most certainly did, (especially since he was the only one still home when his father and I split up). I've seen it play outwith literally all the other female children in my circle... they become these raging,crying,flailing little balls of fury and rage and they break down into a sobbing mess before throwing up the silent treatment and/or 'hunger strike'.
I liked when my daughter would get to the silent treatment part, it was a break from the dervish! My son's go to was nothing but silent treatment... and I wish he would emote! Parenting is so tough...and sometimes it hurts like hell. Rest assured, from everything you have told us, you are doing an AWESOME job and I encourage you to keep doing exactly what you are doing.
My daughter is 23 now and one of my very best friends. I don't dwell on the times that were sad, stressful, infuriating for both of us... it was my job to be her parent NOT her friend when she was a child/tween/teen. I don't regret my parenting choices that helped guide her into the beautiful human being and loving friend she is, not only to me but to so many other people as well.
BTW, during the worst of times with my (then) teenage daughter I called my mum in tears many times and apologized for what I had put her through. My daughter has apologized to me several times in recent years as well. For some reason it just seems like the majority of girls go through the crazies for a few years when those hormones kick in. It isn't fair but in my case, and in most cases I see moms and daughters being closer then ever when all is said and I done. I feel confident you and your girl are going to be just fine. She will one day be mature enough to see the whole picture and be so proud and so thankful of what you did for her despite how rotten she behaved sometimes
Keep up the good work, you are fighting the good fight, and you ARE winning, even if it doesn't feel like it right now.
BIG MUMMA HUGS from me to you girlfriend.
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Join Date: Jan 2016
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Was there a schedule agreed upon as part of mediation?
(Sorry if I have the back story mixed up, not much sleep last night!)
If not...maybe talk to your attorney about establishing one...and then you stick to it no matter what?
Having to have this three-way fight every day is insanity. You must be exhausted.
Is this in large part about that puppy he's bribing her with? Because maybe work out shared custody of him, as well? If I were your daughter, I would be very worried about whether the father can take care of it, so I'm wondering if that's part of it?
Sending you a hug.
(Sorry if I have the back story mixed up, not much sleep last night!)
If not...maybe talk to your attorney about establishing one...and then you stick to it no matter what?
Having to have this three-way fight every day is insanity. You must be exhausted.
Is this in large part about that puppy he's bribing her with? Because maybe work out shared custody of him, as well? If I were your daughter, I would be very worried about whether the father can take care of it, so I'm wondering if that's part of it?
Sending you a hug.
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,944
I am so sorry for the stressful evening, Sasha. I have no wisdom to share because I have no children of my own. My ADD brain, of course, wonders how this girlfriend of his is handling the new persona.
Just sending all the strength and peace that I can!
Just sending all the strength and peace that I can!
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
even if you took addiction out of the equation, you would still "suffer" the dramatics of a pre-teen daughter who suddenly seems to prefer the OTHER parent. i remember clearly going from Best Mommy Ever to the scourge of the planet and it was Daddy this and Daddy that, and Daddy makes the best spaghetti (it was Prego for god's sake). we too were separated.
only when she was much older did she clarify for me - she said Mom, it was like vacation over at Dad's house - he didn't have nearly the same rules, wasn't nearly as strict and really wasn't even around or involved that much. OF COURSE i wanted to be over there and not have to be in bed by 8!
try not to take it personal. don't soften up to try and make points or WIN her affection. she's a mass of growing cells and hormones. part of her development is to pull away from MOM, attempt to push boundaries - not to see how far she can go, but to test that those boundaries are still there. to know you are still THERE and watching over her.
only when she was much older did she clarify for me - she said Mom, it was like vacation over at Dad's house - he didn't have nearly the same rules, wasn't nearly as strict and really wasn't even around or involved that much. OF COURSE i wanted to be over there and not have to be in bed by 8!
try not to take it personal. don't soften up to try and make points or WIN her affection. she's a mass of growing cells and hormones. part of her development is to pull away from MOM, attempt to push boundaries - not to see how far she can go, but to test that those boundaries are still there. to know you are still THERE and watching over her.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,450
Sasha, is there any way you can establish set dates and times for these weekly visits? So there is no confusion or negotiation around expectations? It feels like you're all winging it week to week.
I assume he resists having a definitive schedule so he can continue to attempt to manipulate your daughter's perception of the situation, but it would remove so much of the yes/no from this equation. You could plan your life and everyone could know exactly what to expect.
I assume he resists having a definitive schedule so he can continue to attempt to manipulate your daughter's perception of the situation, but it would remove so much of the yes/no from this equation. You could plan your life and everyone could know exactly what to expect.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,618
Thanks everyone for your reassurance that I am not alone and Kid will not hate me forever! I also really appreciate the long view, from parents who had preteen girls and lived to tell the tale (spoiler: they turn into reasonable human beings in the end). I did not have the greatest family-of-origin experience, so I really have no benchmark for what is "normal" in adolescence (I was the very quiet "good kid" who flew under the radar and didn't get much in the way of parenting because both my siblings had, shall we say, conduct issues, and that absorbed all my parents' attention).
Anvilhead, your story about the spaghetti sauce makes me laugh because the exact thing happened this week - Kid raving about how Dad makes the best chocolate cake, which turns out to be McCain's Deep'n'Delicious from your convenient grocer.
Ex said in mediation (why do people say these things?) that he believed in a more "lenient" style of parenting than I do, which tallies with Kid's stories. And when Kid is only there for a few hours a week, it's easy to make those hours fun and indulgent.
And the frigging puppy - I forgot about that, but yes, Kid does express concern about needing to walk the dog, make sure he's okay, etc. I can't have a dog in my place so joint canine custody is out of the question, but I am not too optimistic about his chances. I also have no idea how much of Kid's distress has to do with her father's new gender stuff - I have no idea how much she's been told by him, or if this is another one of the special secrets, like the meth girlfriend, that she's been told not to tell Mom about.
We did have a de facto schedule (one of the outcomes of mediation) but it's been thrown up in the air because I have to leave town for a couple of days and then Kid and I are going away - so Kid, being a junior lawyer, has arguments for why she should get "extra make-up time" with her father before I leave because when I'm away and there's a friend staying with her at my place, I don't want the friend to have to deal with Dad by taking Kid to/from his place.
I completely get that Kid is fed up with the situation (I'm fed up with the situation too), and that she's venting this on me because her experience with Dad is that he freaks out or gets drunk or gets really angry with people who express displeasure. I am trying to balance being compassionate and loving with staying firm on basics like interpersonal respect ("I don't yell at you, you don't yell at me") and not bending on things which I shouldn't bend on just to make Kid happy.
Assuming ex goes through with getting SoberLink working, that might make life a bit less fraught. He'll have a chance to establish an objective track record of not drinking around Kid, and over time maybe more access will be possible (or he'll have a chance to fall on his face, and then we're back to square one. But I really hope not).
Anvilhead, your story about the spaghetti sauce makes me laugh because the exact thing happened this week - Kid raving about how Dad makes the best chocolate cake, which turns out to be McCain's Deep'n'Delicious from your convenient grocer.
Ex said in mediation (why do people say these things?) that he believed in a more "lenient" style of parenting than I do, which tallies with Kid's stories. And when Kid is only there for a few hours a week, it's easy to make those hours fun and indulgent.
And the frigging puppy - I forgot about that, but yes, Kid does express concern about needing to walk the dog, make sure he's okay, etc. I can't have a dog in my place so joint canine custody is out of the question, but I am not too optimistic about his chances. I also have no idea how much of Kid's distress has to do with her father's new gender stuff - I have no idea how much she's been told by him, or if this is another one of the special secrets, like the meth girlfriend, that she's been told not to tell Mom about.
We did have a de facto schedule (one of the outcomes of mediation) but it's been thrown up in the air because I have to leave town for a couple of days and then Kid and I are going away - so Kid, being a junior lawyer, has arguments for why she should get "extra make-up time" with her father before I leave because when I'm away and there's a friend staying with her at my place, I don't want the friend to have to deal with Dad by taking Kid to/from his place.
I completely get that Kid is fed up with the situation (I'm fed up with the situation too), and that she's venting this on me because her experience with Dad is that he freaks out or gets drunk or gets really angry with people who express displeasure. I am trying to balance being compassionate and loving with staying firm on basics like interpersonal respect ("I don't yell at you, you don't yell at me") and not bending on things which I shouldn't bend on just to make Kid happy.
Assuming ex goes through with getting SoberLink working, that might make life a bit less fraught. He'll have a chance to establish an objective track record of not drinking around Kid, and over time maybe more access will be possible (or he'll have a chance to fall on his face, and then we're back to square one. But I really hope not).
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Sasha....yes, it is h ard...really hard.....
I was a single parent, also...as I divorced the (3) children's father....He wasn't as bizarre as your husband sounds...but, he was uncooperative and loved to be obstructive, to me, at every chance he got....
I can remember how deep these kinds of issues cut, for a mother who is trying to do the right thing in very unfair circumstances....
As my children got older, they began to recognize the facts about their father, on their own. (he was ultra strict) ...so, I didn't have the "Disneyland visits" to contend with....
I can tell you this---if you child loved you at 6yrs....they will always love you, deep down....even if they are conflicting with you about rues and boundaries on the surface.....
Stop worrying that she will hate you....
You are the Captain of her ship....you are her compass for a difficult part of her life....
You have to make the difficult decisions that are in her best overall interest....regardless if she is delighted or not...
The tail, must never wag the dog........
I was a single parent, also...as I divorced the (3) children's father....He wasn't as bizarre as your husband sounds...but, he was uncooperative and loved to be obstructive, to me, at every chance he got....
I can remember how deep these kinds of issues cut, for a mother who is trying to do the right thing in very unfair circumstances....
As my children got older, they began to recognize the facts about their father, on their own. (he was ultra strict) ...so, I didn't have the "Disneyland visits" to contend with....
I can tell you this---if you child loved you at 6yrs....they will always love you, deep down....even if they are conflicting with you about rues and boundaries on the surface.....
Stop worrying that she will hate you....
You are the Captain of her ship....you are her compass for a difficult part of her life....
You have to make the difficult decisions that are in her best overall interest....regardless if she is delighted or not...
The tail, must never wag the dog........
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Join Date: Jan 2016
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If your daughter is sincerely attached to the puppy (and many children turn to their pets for comfort during times like what she's experienced), maybe figuring out a way for the dog to become part of your lives together could be very helpful?
And the reverse...if the dog becomes a disposable item to your ex and he gets rid of it, your daughter could be devastated at yet another loss and he'll be happy to blame you.
As an animal lover, having your daughter show responsibility toward this puppy is something to be applauded.
And the reverse...if the dog becomes a disposable item to your ex and he gets rid of it, your daughter could be devastated at yet another loss and he'll be happy to blame you.
As an animal lover, having your daughter show responsibility toward this puppy is something to be applauded.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,618
Ariesagain, I get it about the puppy - I volunteer at a local animal rescue and care about animal wellbeing. If I thought the puppy was being neglected, I'd call the Humane Society. But if I did anything now that looked like I was moving in on the puppy, I'd be getting into way too much engagement with ex. I really hope Kid doesn't become attached to this pet only to lose it, but right now there is nothing constructive that I can do.
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