dandylion

tis19....yes, ruminating is totally normal for a grieving/mourning process.
(If you don't believe me, look it up...just google "rumination and grief")...read all about grieving.
I believe you are grieving the l oss of the relationship and the "dream" that you had for this relationship...possibly since teen age years.....
This is very much like the emotions that one goes through following a death.
There is an exception--sometimes, a death is easier...because there is a finality that one can't deny.
But, with this, there is no finality, yet...because of the frequent contact with him. by texting. Each contact sets you back.....
Nobody thinks..."Maybe my loved one will come back from the dead and get better and we can begin all over again"......Not, so, when the person is still living...(and, still texting sweet nothings).....

How long will it last....? From a few weeks to several months....depending on individual factors.....One main factor is how well you accept your grief and let yourself experience it....and, how well you begin steps to living a life of your own.....

If you are really serious about wanting to move through the pain...do the proactive things....
Start seeing a therapist to guide you through it and join a grieving support group....there are lots of them around these days....

dandylion

TropicalWinter.....I have to laugh about the red blood cell indices! That will certainly refocus a person's mind....lol....
I know what you mean, though...
I do the same thing when I want to take my mind off of something unpleasant or worrysome......often, before I go to sleep.....
For example....I will build the perfect "dream house", in every detail....
Or, lay out imaginary landscape plans, in detail....
Or, plan the perfect brunch menu for 50 people....
Or, design women's clothing in my mind.......

Or....the Kreb's Cycle......

It is impossible to hold two thoughts in one's mind, at the exact time.....

TLC

Thanks for the feedback. I am seeing a therapist and am grateful for the process. I understand grieving the loss of a relationship.
All your insights are good and well received. I think I get stuck when its within that relationship, he often would say that I ruminate, that I am depressed, living under a dark cloud, why can't I just be happy.

He is partially right. I am a reflective person and I'm ok with that. When he would do something that was hurtful, he NEVER volunteered an apology. I would say I was hurt and at best he would say yes he was sorry and regretted that and at worse he would react in big anger. Regardless he wanted to just move on and not discuss anymore, after all he did say he was sorry. Yet nothing changed and the dirt that kept being swept under the rug just got bigger and couldn't be ignore, at least by me. And I was left with pain and not feeling a level of empathy to "feel" he was sorry. Add more and more of these events and I was the only one navigating around this big pile under the rug. I'd approaching him with, trying to resolve things, get some understanding, mutual respect, understanding and a plan. Well, of course round and round we go. So now, its all about how I'm a depressed person that ruminates, nothing about how I got here or any or his part of the picture.
I know he's in denial and I"m the one being left with the reality of it all and its painful. I know distance will help. But its hard to hear the added insults of how he needs to see me, to live with himself. It does leave me wondering about my sanity. I was researching this morning on empathy, as he was recently tested to be Very low on empathy, narcissistic personality and of course the addict. I suppose what can I expect. It's just hard. I have feeling like a crazy person in the room. One step at a time I suppose

Therapy: yes I'm there
Meditation: yes, i've started back to meditating
Not responding to attempts to connect. We have to divide the belongings, and I rent out part of the house so feel I need to keep enough connection to resolve the belonging returned.

Time: yes and today feels better than yesterday... though there are moments.

Grateful to hear your counsel. Your words provide strength and to know I'm not the only one out there

dandylion

tis19......I say this, respectfully...and, I am not trying to be snarky.....You say that you understand grieving the loss....but, I really don't think you do....Otherwise, you wouldn't have to ask what you asked----"Is ruminating normal, and how how long will it last?" (paraphrased)

I think it is gnawing you that he calls you a ruminator and a depressed person...because that is totally shedding any responsibility for his actions that have hurt you. He is blaming you.
It is like hitting someone with a big stick....and then blaming the victim, for it....To me, that is like assaulting the victim twice...once with the stick, and, again when they blame the victim for it....
Of course that is "crazymaking" for the victim of the assaults....

The sticky wicket here, I think, is that, when such an assault comes from someone that we have loved...it is very confusing...because we are looking to the one who hurt us to be the one who heals us.....
The human mind can't really wrap their mind around that,,,I think......

If a stranger hurts us twice...we get angry and we want to be as far away from them as we can get....
If a loved one hurts us that way...we seem to want to find a way to draw them closer to us.....

good, I think, that you are seeing a therapist and meditating.....

There are lots of techniques to help you through this period of time...and, there are lots of books that cover it....Maybe, your therapist knows of some of them..?

Personally, I think you could also use the support of a support group of human beings.....human contact is very, very, conducive to healing these kinds of wounds....
Why wouldn't you want that?

TLC

Dandylion, You are right. Thank you! Yes, my eyes filled with tears as I read your reply, but as you know, its the truth and needed to hear.

This idea of being hit twice by the abuser and looking for healing from that same "loved one" is crazy making. This is exactly the situation. And its very confusing. And its where the biggest part of my pain is. Thank you for your directness. I process in my mind trying to sort such things out, but by oneself I get lost and hard to gain perspective. Your words are not only true, but validating as well.

I have being reading anything I can get my hands on.
A support group would be good as well, and very willing. I'll ask the therapist if she knows of any. I do Al Anon, but they are not so in reflecting back, more in the process of the steps.

Thanks again. much to process in the head/heart.

dandylion

tis....I understand how you feel....because I have been through the heartbreak, also. It may be one of the most painful times one can experience.....
It doesn't last forever. The only way to get past it is to go through it (like there is a choice...lol).....
As painful as it is...grieving is the first part of the healing process.....
It doesn't last forever...it gets better as time passes....
The sun will come out again...and, you will laugh, again.....

HardLessons

Dandylion

Great posts all of them hit home with me & all very true

Never heard below before but has a lot of meaning in my past:

If a stranger hurts us twice...we get angry and we want to be as far away from them as we can get....
If a loved one hurts us that way...we seem to want to find a way to draw them closer to us.....

Thanks

FallenAngelina

Look for a different group if this one isn't helping you self-reflect or access your emotions because Al-Anon is for both intellectual understanding of the the step work and deep emotional processing. Al-Anon is much deeper than attending meetings, but finding a meeting in which you resonate with the people is essential. Each meeting feels different. I've tried about eight different meetings and have found one that I love. Commit to finding a meeting that works for you, don't just try one and then discount Al-Anon.

Of course we can't diagnose over the internet, but everything you describe about yourself is big time co-dependence. I'm sure this isn't the first time you've found yourself tied to another like this, even though this is perhaps the most extreme. Life shows us where we need to work and when we don't get it, Life shows us something that is more obvious - and more obvious and more obvious until we finally see. This is way more than grief, you're describing the cycle and the emotions of codependence. In my experience, getting out of the relationship is only the first step - an essential step, but only the first step. Codependent thinking runs deep and doesn't change just because you sever yourself from the problem person. The problem isn't really the person, it is our patterns of thought. This is where Al-Anon and therapy are paramount.

Getting away from the alcoholic brings some relief for sure, but it also brings up an awful lot of space and quiet that can be terribly disconcerting if we don't have a wellness/recovery plan. I have found that a full court press of recovery support for myself is needed: therapy, Al-Anon, trusted friends, this forum, yoga. That's my recovery program and I need every one of those right now while I am changing a lifetime "habit" of codependent thinking. I encourage you to try again with Al-Anon and to keep trying meetings until you find one that does work for you. It might not be near you and it might not be convenient, but the program of Al-Anon is tailor made for a exactly the situation you're describing, for making a life long change. It's not just sitting around, discussing the steps. In Al-Anon you don't get advice and nobody tells you what to do because the point is for you to find your way within the guided support of the steps, the fellowship and a sponsor. Codependent thinkers (like me) are all too good at looking to others to reflect back to us. Al-Anon gives us tools to learn how to navigate our own ships, not follow the lead or even the perspective of others.

honeypig

This is an important thing, and I think FA put it really well. In trying to express this same thing in the past, which I don't think I've done nearly as well, I've said that recovery for us F&F types "isn't like removing a splinter." It's not like I can just end that one relationship and poof, things are all better, b/c it is about me and what I bring to the situation every bit as much as what the A brings to the situation. And man, that was hard for me to accept and understand, b/c I did NOT want to be responsible for any of what had gone on for so long!

It took time, a lot of time, for me to get it. In fact, I'm still working on certain aspects of that, can still get pretty angry and "blame-ful" at times, but those times are few and far between nowadays.

I also think FA did a wonderful job of describing Alanon and how it works when it's doing what it is supposed to do. As she said, not all groups will work this well, simply b/c they are made up of individual humans. Some of those humans will have a lot of good healthy recovery and thus will have a lot to offer. Others, not so much, and of course they can't give what they don't have. In the first year or two of my recovery, my work schedule changed a lot and so I was forced to go to a variety of meetings simply b/c I couldn't always attend the same ones. I found a few I got very little from, a fair number that were good enough, and a few that were outstanding. The outstanding ones were well worth it in terms of inconvenience of time or travel.

For me, recovery has been stitched together from a whole lot of sources, with SR being my mainstay and Alanon, books, occasional churchgoing, irregular meditation and wisdom from coworkers, family members and random folks playing a part too. A counter guy at the local Dunkin' Donuts lifted me up one day: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ted-me-up.html
And a call-in on a radio show that I was about to turn off b/c of its mean-spirited tone--this wise and kind woman talked about how, rather than struggling to keep everything the same for her kids during that holiday season (their first holidays post divorce), she was going to use it as an opportunity to teach them about starting over, "because", she said, "they WILL have to start over in life, at some point. Things won't work out, and they'll have to begin again."

So what I'm saying here is that recovery wisdom can show up ANYWHERE, if you're tuned to that wavelength. If you're open to it, it will enter your life in all sorts of ways, both stunning and subtle. But it does take time. It's kind of like making a cake from scratch--just b/c you have the flour, sugar, eggs, etc., all in the bowl and mixed up, it's not a cake yet. It's gotta bake--and all that "recovery stuff" in YOU has to "bake" too.

FallenAngelina

Love this, honeypig. Beautifully said.

TLC

How powerful this forum is.
I have been working my entire life with intent of growing, learning, evolving and trying to understand why certain types of things kept happening, wanting to keep creating a better life. As much as I've applied what I've learned (which in many ways has been good), there is always is a theme or thread untouched by my efforts. A mystery that was so evasive I could not get a handle or understanding around it. Finally when I started to attend Al Anon, awareness of codependency began to unfold right in front of me. Only at the beginning of my learning and the bottom fell out of my world, this is when I found this forum.
I had no idea (and I'm sure still don't) know how deeply this runs in me and through my life. The people here in the last few days have opened my eyes farther than ever before. Strange how a bunch of strangers seem to understand more about what I'm going through than anyone.

You are right, this isn't my first time dealing with an alcoholic (father and x husband who was not a drinker at all but raised by an alcoholic) but certainly the most intense. This is frustrating to me as I thought my efforts in my life would lessen the intensity of some of these lessons. Obviously, it didn't.

It's so surprising the insight you have. Each of you as you write, you shine a bit more light of truth on something I need to hear. Example as "FallenAngelia" writes (and I have yet to learn how to include a quote above what I write): "Codependent thinkers (like me) are all too good at looking to others to reflect back to us. Al-Anon gives us tools to learn how to navigate our own ships, not follow the lead or even the perspective". So true, for me.

Even though this is a process, I am hopeful because in understanding codependency and how this has shaped my thinking etc, (primarily because of the insight you have all had about me), its finally a direction, a place that will hold answers for me. I'll keep trying.

TLC

I just posted yesterday of my hope. Isn't it a funny thing, this process. Today I wake to feeling the discomfort of the loss of partner, "friend", companion, dreams, hopes and plans with him and sit in sadness.
He is from another part of town and had moved to be closer to me. He let me know that he'll be buying something within a couple miles of me. And he is connecting with mutual high school friends who are at the local bar everyday. He seems to be aligning himself them and they are going to include him in their social network. He can have what ever friends he wants, I get that. The big deal for this group is posting online all the events, activities and parties etc. So, I speculate (and I shouldn't put the cart before the horse) I'll be seeing lots of pictures of him having fun with all these people, including new girlfriends etc. It's hard enough to move on and not see him, but it would seem it will be all played out in front of me.

How come "hard" gets "harder"?

Today I come to the part of my day, where I would normally call him.... but didn't. But feeling empty, vulnerable and alone.

Thanks for listening

CelticZebra

I read somewhere about watching the As go have 'fun' and live in denial of their problem while we (as codies) watch from the side and wonder.
I have this duality where I still think of fun as essentially a social thing, having fun, having a laugh, easier with others but also made possible by comedy online.
Time and education can help, support of people who can have fun in healthy and harmless ways are also cool.
Learning the self is good stuff too, and feeling emotions is human, we all have those down days which will also pass.
Keep looking after yourself and be kind to your soul xx

HardLessons

TLS

I feel for you. I understand completely in this moment what you are feeling

You are not alone. You have in a relatively short period of time built a very knowledgeable & caring support group here on SR

Do not spend one minute of your time following this group of people online. Stay away from it. Stay away online for the same reason you have to stay away from him. Addicts love to hang out with other addicts

Just so you know I am doing exactly the same for myself. I could see a whole lot about her online. I know right where to go. Could do it in minutes. Since I left. I haven't done it once & wont. Because I'm not going to set my self up for a world of hurt

Be kind to yourself & stay away from his online BS

Please take care TLS. Your not alone. Just post on here as often as you need to. I do. That often they haven't gotten sick of me yet or kicked me to the curb lol

FallenAngelina

This is where your recovery and wellness plan comes in. What is your current wellness plan to take everything you've learned & experienced and not just get over him, but create a better life for yourself? Perhaps this very time of day is when you need to have something specific in place, something nourishing for you, something simple and fun. Part of a good wellness plan is knowing your predictable vulnerable times and thinking ahead about how best to meet them. What is your recovery plan for right now?

And yes, a lot of people who are going through break ups either take that person out of their feed or get off Facebook altogether. You can always re-activate your account in a few months when you're feeling more solid. All of the social media sites have a deactivate and reactivate button and they're probably used more for this reason than any other. Use yours.

TLC

Thanks Hardlessons,
I'm trying. I use FB in part for business, and there the friends are. They are people I run into all the time online and in person. Perhaps I can learn how to block etc on that site. It does hurt. Its like I left the war and by association he's bringing the war to my backyard.
CelticZebra talks of other kinds of fun. That's good as well to hang onto. I have a lot of things I do that does not include drinking. There is a world of activities and I feel good about that and that my social world isn't in the bar.
The issue for me is that they are all within a couple miles and run into frequently. Not all are these bar goers, some not, we have 40plus years of mutual friends, I introduced him back into this community, they talk and share updates and all keep up with each other. I can't control this and it feels like the codependency I need to learn about. His actions I fear will bring hurt or discomfort to me. I can't change this. I fear he will have a affect me in this network by bringing women in/out of my vision. He likes to live large and post all his accomplishments. Party big and to many he is a fun drunk (until he is crossed). So with this it feels like he will flaunt his perceived success. He loves to retaliate. I also fear he will talk poorly about me to them, sharing my vulnerabilities with them. With this comes many people looking at me differently (perhaps allowing their perceptions to affect me).
. I think I'll need to disassociate for awhile.I feel like I'm losing a lot and now the community (in part). It's probably just my perception, but I feel like I'm losing a lot and really didn't want to worry about running into him at every corner and/or hearing about him and all his successes/failures. I need my peace back.

Thanks FallenAngelina, saw your post after this one. I like the idea of putting something in place for myself during those times. And to have a recovery plan for right now. Okay, I'll put some thought to that today. Even though I use Facebook for work, I will look into "hiding posts" from the people I know he'll be hanging with. Its a start. I feel like the war is all around me.

FallenAngelina

This is a really good, specific area to work on as part of your wellness/recovery plan. Fear of negative judgment is one of the cornerstones of codependence (and devastates many others, as well.) Fear of what others think is a HUGE handicap in life, but I tell you from years of experience that it can be completely turned around. This is a great topic to work on with a therapist, books, Al-Anon (lots in the literature about this) and many other positive resources. Working to eradicate this crippling fear from your life will be an enormous benefit that can come from this relationship and break-up. I highly encourage you to pursue working on this topic because you do not have to live with this fear and a life without it is radically blessed.

HardLessons

TLS

I believe you are thinking too much into all of this. You are looking too far into the future. Your making him into bigger than what he is

He's an alcoholic. He gets wicked drunk.

You said above your concerned in the future his actions will bring hurt & discomfort to you. Yes your right he's an alcoholic he has hurt you in the past. He will hurt anyone who gets close to him

You said above he likes to retaliate He's going to do that to you. Talk badly about you. I'm sorry but what a loser he is. Don't let this loser get to you.

He may show up at the bar and social group with a new woman yes maybe they will both pound down shots of tequila with beer chasers until they are completely wasted drunk. Puke on themselves & sleep on the sidewalk together all night. That picture won't get posted on Facebook.

You chose not to be with him you chose a life without the horrible disease of addiction. From there it doesn't matter what he does or where he goes. He does not make or break who you are

These mutual friends. If they don't show you caring & respect then they weren't friends in the first place You don't need them

I think your making too much of him your giving him too much power over your life especially given the fact that you chose not to be with him

TLS. I'm not at my best. I hope you understand what I am trying to say

TLC

I don't know if I create a new thread, but knee deep in getting my mind/heart around codependency and how that plays out in my life and most specifically letting go of this relationship.
I read that I should focus on myself right now, learning what I need and not looking at myself through others eyes. The first part of that sentence is easier to get my mind around (perhaps a bit harder to always follow through with) , the second half of this sentence is BIG and don't know how to even begin.
But here is a question I ponder, I hear out there in the world that we should be giving to others and that by giving it will come back to us. Well , this doesn't work in a codependent relationship with an alcoholic. How do I reconcile this idea? I get about giving, but I've given so much that it isn't healthy for me. Is it the motivation of a codependent that makes this unhealthy or about balance. How does one reconcile this when one is a codependent?
Thanks

tomsteve

for me, giving to others and helping them comes down to one simple concept:
check my motives. am i trying to rescue or am i tryin to help?
am i reaching out a hand to help lift someone up or to carry them?
am i doing something for someone they can do for themselves?
am i risking my own well being?
do i have an expectation of getting anything in return?

how to reconcile it?
ever hear the old joke:
do you know how to get to broadway?
for me the answer was what i needed to do to reconcile that wanting to help:
practice,practice,practice.