Binding arbitration coming up?
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Join Date: Nov 2010
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Anvil is absolutely right IMHO-- she usually is...
Especially this... "i don't believe for one minute he is driven by wanting to see the child as much as he is driven by wanting to continually invade and to a degree control your space, your actions, your time. the child is a means to an end."
Originally Posted by AnvilheadII 
sole custody with reasonable and generous access
i'm ok with reasonable, but generous considering the other parent involved here sounds way to easy peasy, way too lenient. it says your boundaries and schedules are fluid and he has access on demand. as he does NOW with afternoon calls about seeing the kid tonite.
considering how this person has been acting lately, i think 2 hours every other thursday and some weekend time is much more appropriate!? remember the kids have to endure that time with an active alcoholic demonstrating signs of mental health issues.
IMO, i don't believe for one minute he is driven by wanting to see the child as much as he is driven by wanting to continually invade and to a degree control your space, your actions, your time. the child is a means to an end. he isn't bucking for Father of the Year.
i'm ok with reasonable, but generous considering the other parent involved here sounds way to easy peasy, way too lenient. it says your boundaries and schedules are fluid and he has access on demand. as he does NOW with afternoon calls about seeing the kid tonite.
considering how this person has been acting lately, i think 2 hours every other thursday and some weekend time is much more appropriate!? remember the kids have to endure that time with an active alcoholic demonstrating signs of mental health issues.
IMO, i don't believe for one minute he is driven by wanting to see the child as much as he is driven by wanting to continually invade and to a degree control your space, your actions, your time. the child is a means to an end. he isn't bucking for Father of the Year.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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So the first mediation/arbitration meeting is in less than 48 hours. If I'm really, really lucky it will also be the last but I somehow don't think so. I'm preparing mentally.
I know my own weaknesses in dealing with ex - the things that in the past have led me to consider caving in - and I would appreciate any words of support or encouragement that will help me to quell those weaknesses. Here they are:
1. "Being reasonable". I am vulnerable to the allegation that I am being unreasonable, that I am freaking out over one incident and blowing it way out of proportion. I need to remember that it's not one incident, it's more than a year's worth of documented incidents (and many undocumented years before that). At this point, if I did anything other than seek sole custody of Kid, I would be pretending that I don't know which I do know - that ex drinks when Kid is in his care and that he does things which put her in danger. Pretending I don't know this would be unreasonable, but acting on the knowledge that I do have is reasonable.
2. "You're making Kid suffer". I am vulnerable to the allegation that I am making Kid miserable because of my own vindictive agenda, that she is suffering because she doesn't get to see her father. I need to remember that yes, Kid is unhappy because having an alcoholic parent sucks. The best way to deal with this is to give Dad the time he needs to get his life straightened out and then planning a return to having more time with Kid when there is evidence that he's stable and healthy. Exposing Kid to an addict who is still struggling with recovery and at risk of relapse will not make her less unhappy.
3. "Lack of trust". I am vulnerable to the allegation that I am a bad co-parent because I don't trust ex, that we need to trust each other to raise Kid. I need to remember that yeah, there is a lack of trust, and that is because ex has not been honest about his drinking. So when he promises and swears up and down that he's getting better for real this time, I am not able to believe him. Believing his statements would mean that I am either in denial or unable to learn from experience. The only thing I will believe is the evidence of time. If he's really getting better, that will become evident over time, and as we know from Al Anon, time takes time.
That's all I've got for now.
I know my own weaknesses in dealing with ex - the things that in the past have led me to consider caving in - and I would appreciate any words of support or encouragement that will help me to quell those weaknesses. Here they are:
1. "Being reasonable". I am vulnerable to the allegation that I am being unreasonable, that I am freaking out over one incident and blowing it way out of proportion. I need to remember that it's not one incident, it's more than a year's worth of documented incidents (and many undocumented years before that). At this point, if I did anything other than seek sole custody of Kid, I would be pretending that I don't know which I do know - that ex drinks when Kid is in his care and that he does things which put her in danger. Pretending I don't know this would be unreasonable, but acting on the knowledge that I do have is reasonable.
2. "You're making Kid suffer". I am vulnerable to the allegation that I am making Kid miserable because of my own vindictive agenda, that she is suffering because she doesn't get to see her father. I need to remember that yes, Kid is unhappy because having an alcoholic parent sucks. The best way to deal with this is to give Dad the time he needs to get his life straightened out and then planning a return to having more time with Kid when there is evidence that he's stable and healthy. Exposing Kid to an addict who is still struggling with recovery and at risk of relapse will not make her less unhappy.
3. "Lack of trust". I am vulnerable to the allegation that I am a bad co-parent because I don't trust ex, that we need to trust each other to raise Kid. I need to remember that yeah, there is a lack of trust, and that is because ex has not been honest about his drinking. So when he promises and swears up and down that he's getting better for real this time, I am not able to believe him. Believing his statements would mean that I am either in denial or unable to learn from experience. The only thing I will believe is the evidence of time. If he's really getting better, that will become evident over time, and as we know from Al Anon, time takes time.
That's all I've got for now.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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You got this--you have answers to every one of those vulnerabilities. Try assigning numbers to them--"Here comes Strategy A, oops, that didn't work, now he's bringing out Strategy B--oh, nice try but no cigar." Seriously. Mentally step back and try observing as if you are making a movie or writing a book about it.
Do NOT try to respond to his arguments point-by-point. There is no need. This is arbitration. Only the outcome matters. Keep the focus on the Big Picture and not the irrelevant details.
Do NOT try to respond to his arguments point-by-point. There is no need. This is arbitration. Only the outcome matters. Keep the focus on the Big Picture and not the irrelevant details.
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If he had been even the tiniest bit less visibly drunk that day...and if others hadn't stepped in...your daughter would have gone with him.
He could have killed her.
Maybe write that on your hand to read if you feel shaky?
He can squawk all he wants to, but that basic truth doesn't change.
You will have all of us with you in spirit.
Sending you a hug.
He could have killed her.
Maybe write that on your hand to read if you feel shaky?
He can squawk all he wants to, but that basic truth doesn't change.
You will have all of us with you in spirit.
Sending you a hug.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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Thanks. Point-by-point response is where I automatically go (once the captain of the high school debating team, always the captain of the debating team in my head), and I need to not do that.
I need to remember:
He cannot be trusted to tell the truth about his drinking. He got drunk when he was responsible for Kid. He tried to drive away with her. She could have been killed. This happened after more than a year of intensive interventions to treat addiction. He does not grasp the severity of his own problems. He has not taken any observable steps towards sobriety and his trajectory has been downwards. His behavior towards others is antagonistic, unbounded and often (verbally) abusive. Under these circumstances, he is not able to consistently make good decisions affecting Kid's safety. He should not have joint custody until it has been objectively demonstrated that he has changed his behavior so as to reduce risk to Kid.
The end.
I need to remember:
He cannot be trusted to tell the truth about his drinking. He got drunk when he was responsible for Kid. He tried to drive away with her. She could have been killed. This happened after more than a year of intensive interventions to treat addiction. He does not grasp the severity of his own problems. He has not taken any observable steps towards sobriety and his trajectory has been downwards. His behavior towards others is antagonistic, unbounded and often (verbally) abusive. Under these circumstances, he is not able to consistently make good decisions affecting Kid's safety. He should not have joint custody until it has been objectively demonstrated that he has changed his behavior so as to reduce risk to Kid.
The end.
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I think point by point IS good preparation, I hope I didn't sound critical of that. But the Big Truth is summarized perfectly in your last paragraph.
There's another factor: parents are (or should be) modeling adult behavior for their children. Is this...
"His behavior toward others is antagonistic, unbounded and often verbally abusive"
an appropriate role model? Is that who she needs to emulate in life?
Cheering for you!
There's another factor: parents are (or should be) modeling adult behavior for their children. Is this...
"His behavior toward others is antagonistic, unbounded and often verbally abusive"
an appropriate role model? Is that who she needs to emulate in life?
Cheering for you!
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,618
Hi everyone,
So I didn't get everything I wanted. But I got a lot. The quick version:
Ex has agreed to have SoberLink monitoring technology hooked up to his phone. This would provide me directly with random, real-time results from breath testing. Ex will also pay for the whole thing (it's not cheap!) and agrees that until this system is up and running and has been tested out, he will remain at two hours/no driving contact with Kid. This is HUGE because ex a) acknowledged that he's an alcoholic; b) acknowledged that I have reason to not trust him saying "everything is going be better this time for sure"; c) acknowledged that that he's going to have to have a good long track record of sobriety before he gets more time with Kid; d) agreed to a plan to establish that track record. We also agreed that if he wants to see Kid for more than two hours he will need to be supervised ("accompanied") by one of three named people who are acceptable to me. We also agreed that if it is agreeable to our mutual AA and AlAnon sponsors, the sponsors can communicate with each other about ex's progress or lack of same.
It's also sort of cool because this will be the first time SoberLink has been ordered in this jurisdiction (the arbitrator hadn't heard about it), so if this works, it could be useful to other parents in my situation. We had a conference call with the SoberLink people during the mediation, and I was quite impressed.
The downside: this is just a mediated agreement, we did not enter arbitration mode. We are scheduled to return in mid-September by which time ex should have SoberLink running to talk about parenting schedule and making this into an arbitrated award. My lawyer's rationale for not pushing for arbitration in this meeting was that it's better to end on a high note, and we had already gotten so many concessions from ex (with no concessions at all from me), better to wrap it up for today and come back later for some of the more hot-button issues with some "win-wins" and "successes" behind us. Not sure if that's what I would have done left to my own devices, but I see the logic.
I also have enough experience with ex to know that he was on his best behaviour today - earnest and reasonable and willing to agree to lots of things. I know this can flip and he may decide to renege on these agreements (which are after all not legally binding) as soon as he gets home and starts drinking again. But it's something, and there is at least a plausible way forward which doesn't require me to "trust" a chronic drunk.
(And for those who are interested - ex was wearing makeup but otherwise looking pretty much like a dude).
So I didn't get everything I wanted. But I got a lot. The quick version:
Ex has agreed to have SoberLink monitoring technology hooked up to his phone. This would provide me directly with random, real-time results from breath testing. Ex will also pay for the whole thing (it's not cheap!) and agrees that until this system is up and running and has been tested out, he will remain at two hours/no driving contact with Kid. This is HUGE because ex a) acknowledged that he's an alcoholic; b) acknowledged that I have reason to not trust him saying "everything is going be better this time for sure"; c) acknowledged that that he's going to have to have a good long track record of sobriety before he gets more time with Kid; d) agreed to a plan to establish that track record. We also agreed that if he wants to see Kid for more than two hours he will need to be supervised ("accompanied") by one of three named people who are acceptable to me. We also agreed that if it is agreeable to our mutual AA and AlAnon sponsors, the sponsors can communicate with each other about ex's progress or lack of same.
It's also sort of cool because this will be the first time SoberLink has been ordered in this jurisdiction (the arbitrator hadn't heard about it), so if this works, it could be useful to other parents in my situation. We had a conference call with the SoberLink people during the mediation, and I was quite impressed.
The downside: this is just a mediated agreement, we did not enter arbitration mode. We are scheduled to return in mid-September by which time ex should have SoberLink running to talk about parenting schedule and making this into an arbitrated award. My lawyer's rationale for not pushing for arbitration in this meeting was that it's better to end on a high note, and we had already gotten so many concessions from ex (with no concessions at all from me), better to wrap it up for today and come back later for some of the more hot-button issues with some "win-wins" and "successes" behind us. Not sure if that's what I would have done left to my own devices, but I see the logic.
I also have enough experience with ex to know that he was on his best behaviour today - earnest and reasonable and willing to agree to lots of things. I know this can flip and he may decide to renege on these agreements (which are after all not legally binding) as soon as he gets home and starts drinking again. But it's something, and there is at least a plausible way forward which doesn't require me to "trust" a chronic drunk.
(And for those who are interested - ex was wearing makeup but otherwise looking pretty much like a dude).
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Seems like an odd sort of "binding arbitration" if nothing is binding. Sounds more like a settlement discussion with no actual settlement--is that correct? Is he in any way bound by what was decided today? I'm having trouble wrapping my head around what this proceeding was.
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It was not binding. We stayed in "mediation mode", which means we have a mediated agreement on SoberLink etc, which does not have the force of a court order or an arbitration award. However, it forms part of the record of this case so if it does end up in court, we can show that ex agreed to this in mediation and then went back on it.
That was my main reservation about the process today - that we don't have a legally enforceable order yet. My lawyer thought it was quit-while-you're-ahead time, especially as ex had already made a lot of concessions. My lawyer's idea is that our next meeting when we have proof-of-concept and ex has demonstrated buy-in by subscribing to SoberLink, we can have this made into an arbitration award, with a plan for gradually increasing access if SoberLink continues to function as it should. (There's also the contentious issue of the meth girlfriend to be dealt with, which we didn't get to).
On paper we still have joint custody, but ex has conceded that Kid will live with me and see him under restricted conditions until he can demonstrate an extended period of sobriety to my satisfaction.
So I'm not at the end of the road - it remains to be seen whether ex will follow though on his commitments. But I am further ahead than I was at this time yesterday, with big savings of time and money over court. And I made no concessions to his insistence that he needs to see Kid more.
That was my main reservation about the process today - that we don't have a legally enforceable order yet. My lawyer thought it was quit-while-you're-ahead time, especially as ex had already made a lot of concessions. My lawyer's idea is that our next meeting when we have proof-of-concept and ex has demonstrated buy-in by subscribing to SoberLink, we can have this made into an arbitration award, with a plan for gradually increasing access if SoberLink continues to function as it should. (There's also the contentious issue of the meth girlfriend to be dealt with, which we didn't get to).
On paper we still have joint custody, but ex has conceded that Kid will live with me and see him under restricted conditions until he can demonstrate an extended period of sobriety to my satisfaction.
So I'm not at the end of the road - it remains to be seen whether ex will follow though on his commitments. But I am further ahead than I was at this time yesterday, with big savings of time and money over court. And I made no concessions to his insistence that he needs to see Kid more.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Well, you're certainly no WORSE off than you were, and you might be ahead--OTOH, if he reneges on the whole thing (which sometimes happens when it hits him what he's agreed to), you're still gonna have to go through the whole court process. Not trying to be negative and rain on your parade. I just wonder how much your lawyer knows about the irrationality of addicts. Having conceded on something would, indeed, make most rational people feel at least some obligation to honor it, but with someone as goofy as he is, who knows?
I hope your lawyer is right--and maybe it will turn out exactly the way you hope. I'm rooting for you!!
I hope your lawyer is right--and maybe it will turn out exactly the way you hope. I'm rooting for you!!
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That's kind of how I feel - the situation is no worse and is potentially much better. More will be revealed (namely, whether he's willing to comply with SoberLink and whether there is more crazy behavior even if he's complying). His track record with mediated agreements is not good ("I am unilaterally withdrawing my assent ..."). But the stakes are pretty high here because he knows I will go to court over this. However, rational cost/benefit thought is not a characteristic of addicts.
Once he gets the technology and gets it set up, I still want any parenting plans written into an arbitration award which is binding, and I want it clear that I have sole decision-making power. We have another meeting set for mid-September, once he's had time to get SoberLink up and running. I am sitting on my hands to prevent myself from being overly helpful in ordering it, installing it, etc. This is all on him.
I know the arbitrator has a lot of personal and professional experience with addicts, judging by the questions she asked. There was also ample evidence that ex has been given enough rope to hang himself, as I was able to read out sections from his emails about his "emotional honesty" with Kid, which did not go over well. His lawyer, for unknown reasons, let him ramble on and on about how ex-wife #2 was planning to kill him and he knows this from hacking her Facebook page, and the difference between "self-medication" with vast amounts of alcohol and "true" addiction, while the rest of us in the room (I imagine) were thinking "what on earth has this got to do with parenting plans for Kid?".
So not everything I was hoping for, but it's a lot. We shall see.
Once he gets the technology and gets it set up, I still want any parenting plans written into an arbitration award which is binding, and I want it clear that I have sole decision-making power. We have another meeting set for mid-September, once he's had time to get SoberLink up and running. I am sitting on my hands to prevent myself from being overly helpful in ordering it, installing it, etc. This is all on him.
I know the arbitrator has a lot of personal and professional experience with addicts, judging by the questions she asked. There was also ample evidence that ex has been given enough rope to hang himself, as I was able to read out sections from his emails about his "emotional honesty" with Kid, which did not go over well. His lawyer, for unknown reasons, let him ramble on and on about how ex-wife #2 was planning to kill him and he knows this from hacking her Facebook page, and the difference between "self-medication" with vast amounts of alcohol and "true" addiction, while the rest of us in the room (I imagine) were thinking "what on earth has this got to do with parenting plans for Kid?".
So not everything I was hoping for, but it's a lot. We shall see.
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Sounds like a next right step was taken for you today Sasha.
I don't have Lexie's background so can't comment. All I can think is how much better this kind of thing must be than it was 100 years ago. Hmmm . . . .maybe not much consolation but there is hope and folks watching the situation who understand a bit about addiction, kids and parenting.
On a side noter: he was wearing make up???
I don't have Lexie's background so can't comment. All I can think is how much better this kind of thing must be than it was 100 years ago. Hmmm . . . .maybe not much consolation but there is hope and folks watching the situation who understand a bit about addiction, kids and parenting.
On a side noter: he was wearing make up???
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Yup. Definite eyeliner, eyeshadow, and foundation/blush.
My lawyer also said that one outcome of these sessions is that each counsel can get a good look at the opposing side and gauge his/her chances of success in court. He thinks that the fact that ex agreed so readily to SoberLink, on the advice of his lawyer, suggests that his lawyer has figured out that ex will not show well in court compared to me, and that arbitration will give him the best outcome. I'm hoping this is true.
Ex could renege on the whole deal or just not bother to follow through on his commitments - I've got no control over that. But even in this worst-case scenario I can tick the box marked "attempted mediation" as we proceed toward court. In the best-case scenario, ex hooks into SoberLink, I get real-time third-party disclosure of alcohol consumption as a condition of access to Kid and ex turns his life around with AA. In the most-likely-case scenario, ex makes some gestures at using SoberLink, finds a reason to discard it eventually (in weeks or months), has another alcohol-related crash and burn, and we go to litigation. Meanwhile, I'm buying time for Kid to stay living with me.
It was also useful for me to be stuck in a room with ex for a few hours. Not fun, but useful to watch how other people see him, if that makes sense. Judging by body language and verbal responses, ex was coming across as arrogant and not making a lot of sense. Mediator kept asking him "so what does this have to do with ...?" questions.
I noticed the mediator also kept repeating turns of phrase I used, some of which were standard AlAnon wisdom (" 'Time takes time': I like that, I think it's very fitting for this situation"). She also seemed clued in to some aspects of addiction, e.g. ex said he had a 90-day chip, and she asked "90 days or 90 meetings? No? Okay, how many actual meetings in those 90 days? How many consecutive meetings? When and where did you last attend a meeting? What is your home meeting? Do you have a sponsor yet? Why not? What are you doing to actively work a program?".
My advice for anyone in the same situation: stay calm, stay on-script (write things out in advance that you can refer to), take every opportunity possible to verbalize agreement with the other party ("I'm really glad X said Y, because I think it's really true"), watch your own body language (convey openness rather than arms-crossed defensiveness), don't rise to every provocative statement or bait that the other party throws out but do calmly and briefly correct major errors in the other's party's accounts, sometimes it's best to just say nothing and let the other party reveal him/herself.
My lawyer also said that one outcome of these sessions is that each counsel can get a good look at the opposing side and gauge his/her chances of success in court. He thinks that the fact that ex agreed so readily to SoberLink, on the advice of his lawyer, suggests that his lawyer has figured out that ex will not show well in court compared to me, and that arbitration will give him the best outcome. I'm hoping this is true.
Ex could renege on the whole deal or just not bother to follow through on his commitments - I've got no control over that. But even in this worst-case scenario I can tick the box marked "attempted mediation" as we proceed toward court. In the best-case scenario, ex hooks into SoberLink, I get real-time third-party disclosure of alcohol consumption as a condition of access to Kid and ex turns his life around with AA. In the most-likely-case scenario, ex makes some gestures at using SoberLink, finds a reason to discard it eventually (in weeks or months), has another alcohol-related crash and burn, and we go to litigation. Meanwhile, I'm buying time for Kid to stay living with me.
It was also useful for me to be stuck in a room with ex for a few hours. Not fun, but useful to watch how other people see him, if that makes sense. Judging by body language and verbal responses, ex was coming across as arrogant and not making a lot of sense. Mediator kept asking him "so what does this have to do with ...?" questions.
I noticed the mediator also kept repeating turns of phrase I used, some of which were standard AlAnon wisdom (" 'Time takes time': I like that, I think it's very fitting for this situation"). She also seemed clued in to some aspects of addiction, e.g. ex said he had a 90-day chip, and she asked "90 days or 90 meetings? No? Okay, how many actual meetings in those 90 days? How many consecutive meetings? When and where did you last attend a meeting? What is your home meeting? Do you have a sponsor yet? Why not? What are you doing to actively work a program?".
My advice for anyone in the same situation: stay calm, stay on-script (write things out in advance that you can refer to), take every opportunity possible to verbalize agreement with the other party ("I'm really glad X said Y, because I think it's really true"), watch your own body language (convey openness rather than arms-crossed defensiveness), don't rise to every provocative statement or bait that the other party throws out but do calmly and briefly correct major errors in the other's party's accounts, sometimes it's best to just say nothing and let the other party reveal him/herself.
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By the time you're done with this, Sasha, you will be a qualified coach! Seriously, you are doing so great, and I think your points about the advantages of that proceeding are well-taken. Sounds like you have a pretty sharp cookie as mediator, too, AND a good lawyer. You've got a lot going for you. 
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I am so proud of you! This is a step, a big one, that went well. This is good.
I cannot believe he was actually wearing makeup! Wow. Just wow!
I am so happy you pushed for and received SoberLink, and that he is paying for it!
Good Stuff friend!!!
I cannot believe he was actually wearing makeup! Wow. Just wow!
I am so happy you pushed for and received SoberLink, and that he is paying for it!
Good Stuff friend!!!
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