Movement in my custody case? Possibly?
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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Movement in my custody case? Possibly?
Hi all,
I just got an email from a law firm which does binding arbitration indicating that my ex has filled out an intake form for a consultation and asking me to do the same. This is good news because my lawyer had put forward the possibility of arbitration as a faster and cheaper alternative to court (and more private - because none of my evidence would end up in the public record if we arbitrated as distinct from going to court). The arbitrator is the one my lawyer recommended as having experience with addicts who are still using. So all of this is positive. My lawyer is away for two weeks and I don't want to embark on this without his counsel, so I have some time to think (and to ask the internet for opinions!). If anyone wants to weigh in, here is what I am considering as I contemplate the possibility of dealing with this mess through arbitration.
*I need to think about what my “ask” would be. My goal is to ensure that Kid’s life is safe and stable and that she has the opportunity for as much contact with both parents as is consistent with her well-being. The obstacles to this goal are
a) that Dad has behaved in ways which have demonstrably jeopardized Kid, connected to alcohol abuse and mental illness;
b) that I have no trust in Dad because he has a history of not being truthful about his alcohol use, and of not keeping commitments to change his behaviour.
To achieve this goal, I want a variation of the existing divorce judgment granting me interim sole custody and primary residence with Kid. This variation may be revisited after six months from the time it comes into effect, provided that the following conditions are met: (I need conditions which are realistic, feasible, and directly relevant to Kid's well-being, so I can't say "break up with meth girlfriend" or "quit drinking completely", but conditions which also will show whether Dad is able to exercise good parenting abilities).
a) there have been no further incidents (police calls, psychiatric hospitalizations, domestic disturbances, public intoxication, involvement of child protective services, ???);
b) Dad provides his lawyer with third-party evidence of participation and completion of anger management and substance abuse courses (my lawyer had some ideas about this - probably won’t do much good in terms of behavior change, but it’s a hoop to jump through);
c) Dad commits to not consuming alcohol while Kid is with him or 24 hours in advance of when she is scheduled to be with him (is there any realistic way of monitoring this?);
d) Dad commits to not driving a vehicle with Kid in it (cost of ignition interlock?);
e) Dad commits to not communicating with me about anything other than the logistics of Kid'’s visits except in emergencies. All other matters will go through his lawyer (not sure if this is viable but it would be nice to not get crazy emails);
f) Dad commits to not derogating me to Kid (unenforceable I know).
A, C, E and F could all be reciprocal, i.e. I won’t do these things either.
I just got an email from a law firm which does binding arbitration indicating that my ex has filled out an intake form for a consultation and asking me to do the same. This is good news because my lawyer had put forward the possibility of arbitration as a faster and cheaper alternative to court (and more private - because none of my evidence would end up in the public record if we arbitrated as distinct from going to court). The arbitrator is the one my lawyer recommended as having experience with addicts who are still using. So all of this is positive. My lawyer is away for two weeks and I don't want to embark on this without his counsel, so I have some time to think (and to ask the internet for opinions!). If anyone wants to weigh in, here is what I am considering as I contemplate the possibility of dealing with this mess through arbitration.
*I need to think about what my “ask” would be. My goal is to ensure that Kid’s life is safe and stable and that she has the opportunity for as much contact with both parents as is consistent with her well-being. The obstacles to this goal are
a) that Dad has behaved in ways which have demonstrably jeopardized Kid, connected to alcohol abuse and mental illness;
b) that I have no trust in Dad because he has a history of not being truthful about his alcohol use, and of not keeping commitments to change his behaviour.
To achieve this goal, I want a variation of the existing divorce judgment granting me interim sole custody and primary residence with Kid. This variation may be revisited after six months from the time it comes into effect, provided that the following conditions are met: (I need conditions which are realistic, feasible, and directly relevant to Kid's well-being, so I can't say "break up with meth girlfriend" or "quit drinking completely", but conditions which also will show whether Dad is able to exercise good parenting abilities).
a) there have been no further incidents (police calls, psychiatric hospitalizations, domestic disturbances, public intoxication, involvement of child protective services, ???);
b) Dad provides his lawyer with third-party evidence of participation and completion of anger management and substance abuse courses (my lawyer had some ideas about this - probably won’t do much good in terms of behavior change, but it’s a hoop to jump through);
c) Dad commits to not consuming alcohol while Kid is with him or 24 hours in advance of when she is scheduled to be with him (is there any realistic way of monitoring this?);
d) Dad commits to not driving a vehicle with Kid in it (cost of ignition interlock?);
e) Dad commits to not communicating with me about anything other than the logistics of Kid'’s visits except in emergencies. All other matters will go through his lawyer (not sure if this is viable but it would be nice to not get crazy emails);
f) Dad commits to not derogating me to Kid (unenforceable I know).
A, C, E and F could all be reciprocal, i.e. I won’t do these things either.
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
totally no legal advice here, but i don't like wiggly terms like INTERIM sole custody. i like words like PERMANENT, irrevocable, and over my dead body.
NO shared custody. ONLY supervised visitation, by a neutral third party. NOT the gf, or his mom, aunt sister, butcher, or mechanic.
i would NOT bargain or arbitrate for anything that meant he could TAKE the child anywhere in a vehicle, on a bicycle or on foot. i WOULD hold the line that he must successfully complete SOME type of classes BEFORE he's allowed said visitation.
in other words, i'd go in hard ass as hell. the man is delusional and out of his mind.
NO shared custody. ONLY supervised visitation, by a neutral third party. NOT the gf, or his mom, aunt sister, butcher, or mechanic.
i would NOT bargain or arbitrate for anything that meant he could TAKE the child anywhere in a vehicle, on a bicycle or on foot. i WOULD hold the line that he must successfully complete SOME type of classes BEFORE he's allowed said visitation.
in other words, i'd go in hard ass as hell. the man is delusional and out of his mind.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,913
Hey, Sasha, him agreeing to arbitration is good. I'm sure he thinks he can bluff and charm his way through. (Which I find unlikely.)
I would look at word-smithing this with your lawyer since you want to agree to it applying to you as well. Only mentioning it b/c I think AXH would have used a similar clause to slam me. (Like by calling Child Services on me himself and then going to the court, "See, Your Honor, she's having issues with CS.")
With someone who's abusive, anger management classes don't do sh**. I'd be more inclined to ask for him to participate in an abusive partner counseling program. In our state it's a requirement when there's a history of abuse in the relationship; the duration of attendance is, apparently, flexible. There's no guarantee it would help him change, or even that he'd attend, but it's an option for an ask. (It's also how I'm fairly certain AXH will never get his visitation rights back because he flat out refuses to attend the one the court ordered. I'm not pushing for him to fulfill his requirement unless and until he tries to petition the court for access to our son again.)
And yeah, what Anvil said: Go in hard. Ask for your best-case-for-Kiddo scenario and negotiate where you can. An offer to review the plan after X, Y, or Z can be brought up as a negotiation offer. You know what's best for your daughter. Just keep that in the forefront of everything.
Originally Posted by Sasha1972 
a) there have been no further incidents (police calls, psychiatric hospitalizations, domestic disturbances, public intoxication, involvement of child protective services, ???);
....
....
With someone who's abusive, anger management classes don't do sh**. I'd be more inclined to ask for him to participate in an abusive partner counseling program. In our state it's a requirement when there's a history of abuse in the relationship; the duration of attendance is, apparently, flexible. There's no guarantee it would help him change, or even that he'd attend, but it's an option for an ask. (It's also how I'm fairly certain AXH will never get his visitation rights back because he flat out refuses to attend the one the court ordered. I'm not pushing for him to fulfill his requirement unless and until he tries to petition the court for access to our son again.)
And yeah, what Anvil said: Go in hard. Ask for your best-case-for-Kiddo scenario and negotiate where you can. An offer to review the plan after X, Y, or Z can be brought up as a negotiation offer. You know what's best for your daughter. Just keep that in the forefront of everything.
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Northwest
Posts: 4,215
Don't give away a single solitary thing thinking he will reciprocate. He won't.
Being nice/fair will bite you hard. I know it's difficult if you're at heart a peacemaker, but this guy will drive a semi through any sliver of daylight.
Stay strong and ask for everything you want plus six other things you could give away if you have to and only if you have to.
Sending you a big fierce hug.
Being nice/fair will bite you hard. I know it's difficult if you're at heart a peacemaker, but this guy will drive a semi through any sliver of daylight.
Stay strong and ask for everything you want plus six other things you could give away if you have to and only if you have to.
Sending you a big fierce hug.
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast
Posts: 1,235
When you negotiate a salary, you ask for MORE than what you want so your future employer feels like it's a victory when they negotiate you down.
So ask for all of it, and I'm sure your lawyer will help you think of this, but you've got to identify every single trap door in that agreement and seal them shut. I would be asking for SoberLink for the monitoring aspect. And have him pay for it. If he's sober he'll be happy for the chance to prove himself clean.
So ask for all of it, and I'm sure your lawyer will help you think of this, but you've got to identify every single trap door in that agreement and seal them shut. I would be asking for SoberLink for the monitoring aspect. And have him pay for it. If he's sober he'll be happy for the chance to prove himself clean.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
sasha, i sat here last night reading your OP here and putting myself back into the drunken SOB state of mind i used to be.
mind you, i didnt cause serious problems with my sons' mom other than child support, and i spent quite a bit of time with my son.his mother is very intelligent, but kid 1st, and didnt allow me to get away with much.if i was supposed to take him to the doctor, i best be there. if i was supposed to take him for new shoes, i best be there. if i was supposed to take him for clothes, i best do it.
"or else" was NOT fun learning what that was.
but away from that relationship, i was a drunken SOB that tried to manipulate once or t5873wice.
so, i sat here reading and thinking,'yup, i could manipulate that.
and that
and that
and that
and that
example:
Dad commits to not consuming alcohol while Kid is with him or 24 hours in advance of when she is scheduled to be with him (is there any realistic way of monitoring this?);
no alcohol with kid OR 24 hr before.
i can drink with kid OR before- woohoo!!!
but couldnt come up with the words i wanted to suggest.
that was taken care of below. please take anvilheadlls advise.
mind you, i didnt cause serious problems with my sons' mom other than child support, and i spent quite a bit of time with my son.his mother is very intelligent, but kid 1st, and didnt allow me to get away with much.if i was supposed to take him to the doctor, i best be there. if i was supposed to take him for new shoes, i best be there. if i was supposed to take him for clothes, i best do it.
"or else" was NOT fun learning what that was.
but away from that relationship, i was a drunken SOB that tried to manipulate once or t5873wice.
so, i sat here reading and thinking,'yup, i could manipulate that.
and that
and that
and that
and that
example:
Dad commits to not consuming alcohol while Kid is with him or 24 hours in advance of when she is scheduled to be with him (is there any realistic way of monitoring this?);
no alcohol with kid OR 24 hr before.
i can drink with kid OR before- woohoo!!!
but couldnt come up with the words i wanted to suggest.
that was taken care of below. please take anvilheadlls advise.
Originally Posted by AnvilheadII
totally no legal advice here, but i don't like wiggly terms like INTERIM sole custody. i like words like PERMANENT, irrevocable, and over my dead body.
NO shared custody. ONLY supervised visitation, by a neutral third party. NOT the gf, or his mom, aunt sister, butcher, or mechanic.
i would NOT bargain or arbitrate for anything that meant he could TAKE the child anywhere in a vehicle, on a bicycle or on foot. i WOULD hold the line that he must successfully complete SOME type of classes BEFORE he's allowed said visitation.
in other words, i'd go in hard ass as hell. the man is delusional and out of his mind.
NO shared custody. ONLY supervised visitation, by a neutral third party. NOT the gf, or his mom, aunt sister, butcher, or mechanic.
i would NOT bargain or arbitrate for anything that meant he could TAKE the child anywhere in a vehicle, on a bicycle or on foot. i WOULD hold the line that he must successfully complete SOME type of classes BEFORE he's allowed said visitation.
in other words, i'd go in hard ass as hell. the man is delusional and out of his mind.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 224
I second soberlink - him pay for it. I would propose ourfamilywizard.com for communication regarding your child. I would also not be imposing any restrictions on myself or my ability to parent my child. You are not the one with this issue.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,618
Thank you all for the reminders to stay focused. It's amazing how strong the pull is to believe that things are going to be all right, that the alcoholic ex has gotten his act together. Last night Kid came back from a visit happy because Dad had shown her his second AA chip. My first reaction was "that's great! Maybe he's really stopped drinking and everything will be okay and Kid can spend more time with him we won't have to drag this into court and and and ...".
Then I have to stop and think no, this is part of a cycle, there's good behavior until the next stressful moment comes along and then there's an explosion. And the odds are very good that he's still drinking, because over the past year every time he's said he's quit drinking, he hasn't quit. And he's lied to Kid about drinking in the past. And he sent my lawyer a letter last week saying that he did not intend to abstain but had told me he was abstaining so I would be "appeased". And you can buy those chips on Kijiji. So no, this does not mean things are okay.
It really helps to have an extremely detailed log of everything that's happened over the past year - very VERY detailed, with supporting documents. I started it initially in case I had to build an affidavit for court, but I've found that it helps keep me on track - I go back to it and read about what happened, all written as neutrally and objectively as possible, and I think "if this crap was happening just a few months ago, we are not out of the woods".
Then I have to stop and think no, this is part of a cycle, there's good behavior until the next stressful moment comes along and then there's an explosion. And the odds are very good that he's still drinking, because over the past year every time he's said he's quit drinking, he hasn't quit. And he's lied to Kid about drinking in the past. And he sent my lawyer a letter last week saying that he did not intend to abstain but had told me he was abstaining so I would be "appeased". And you can buy those chips on Kijiji. So no, this does not mean things are okay.
It really helps to have an extremely detailed log of everything that's happened over the past year - very VERY detailed, with supporting documents. I started it initially in case I had to build an affidavit for court, but I've found that it helps keep me on track - I go back to it and read about what happened, all written as neutrally and objectively as possible, and I think "if this crap was happening just a few months ago, we are not out of the woods".
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Midwest
Posts: 367
I would bet my car that he's still drinking and that he's either: 1) Lying to AA or 2) Getting chips from somewhere else.
His behavior and rants do NOT sound like someone who has surrendered to the recovery process. Not one bit. Recovery looks like recovery, and he looks like a steaming turd.
His behavior and rants do NOT sound like someone who has surrendered to the recovery process. Not one bit. Recovery looks like recovery, and he looks like a steaming turd.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,618
I was just struck by a chain of really obvious thoughts:
Ex is not dumb. He knows that the reason I won't let Kid spend more time with him is because I believe she is at risk from his drinking.
What would a reasonable person do under those circumstances, if they wanted more time with their daughter? They would be working to change my belief that she is at risk from his drinking, because that's why I'm only okay with short visits. That might involve drinking less or giving me evidence that they're involved in meaningful recovery work.
Is ex doing anything to change my belief that Kid is at risk from his drinking? No he is not. He is writing angry ranting letters about what a terrible person I am and telling my lawyer that he intends to keep drinking. He is showing off tokens he got from wherever to impress Kid and sending her texts about how much I suck.
In the past, have such tactics been successful in intimidating me into doing what he wants? No they have not.
Therefore, how seriously can I take ex's protestations about being an involved parent and wanting more time with Kid? Not very seriously.
What kind of intelligent person do things which are so obviously ineffective?
An addict who wants to keep drinking while at the same time getting to be morally outraged at me for keeping his daughter from him.
Is it possible that the current situation is actually working for ex? Very possible. He only has to deal with Kid for a couple of hours at a time, she gets delivered to him like a pizza and then picked up after they've eaten hot dogs, watched TV and played with the puppy. Ex does not have to do any of the actual work of parenting, like telling Kid to clean up her room, no you can't get a tattoo until you're sixteen, you've had enough screen time, dirty dishes go in the dishwasher, etc, and he gets 99% of his time free to drink and hang with meth girlfriend while getting to play the victim.
Therefore, can I expect that ex will do anything that might be effective in changing this situation? Miracles can happen and I might be completely misreading the situation, but it is unlikely.
Things seem a bit clearer now.
Ex is not dumb. He knows that the reason I won't let Kid spend more time with him is because I believe she is at risk from his drinking.
What would a reasonable person do under those circumstances, if they wanted more time with their daughter? They would be working to change my belief that she is at risk from his drinking, because that's why I'm only okay with short visits. That might involve drinking less or giving me evidence that they're involved in meaningful recovery work.
Is ex doing anything to change my belief that Kid is at risk from his drinking? No he is not. He is writing angry ranting letters about what a terrible person I am and telling my lawyer that he intends to keep drinking. He is showing off tokens he got from wherever to impress Kid and sending her texts about how much I suck.
In the past, have such tactics been successful in intimidating me into doing what he wants? No they have not.
Therefore, how seriously can I take ex's protestations about being an involved parent and wanting more time with Kid? Not very seriously.
What kind of intelligent person do things which are so obviously ineffective?
An addict who wants to keep drinking while at the same time getting to be morally outraged at me for keeping his daughter from him.
Is it possible that the current situation is actually working for ex? Very possible. He only has to deal with Kid for a couple of hours at a time, she gets delivered to him like a pizza and then picked up after they've eaten hot dogs, watched TV and played with the puppy. Ex does not have to do any of the actual work of parenting, like telling Kid to clean up her room, no you can't get a tattoo until you're sixteen, you've had enough screen time, dirty dishes go in the dishwasher, etc, and he gets 99% of his time free to drink and hang with meth girlfriend while getting to play the victim.
Therefore, can I expect that ex will do anything that might be effective in changing this situation? Miracles can happen and I might be completely misreading the situation, but it is unlikely.
Things seem a bit clearer now.
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
My XAH took chips at CR for years, low and behold, he was drinking most of that time.
Those chips mean something....to some people. To others they are just another way for them to try to convince you they are doing the right thing, even if they aren't.
Those chips mean something....to some people. To others they are just another way for them to try to convince you they are doing the right thing, even if they aren't.
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