FireSprite

How maddening Sasha!! If this isn't a great example of how people create their own reality in their minds, idk what is!

I have no experience with courts & custody but just wanted to let you know I'm here silently cheering you on. He just keeps giving himself more rope to hang himself by it seems & has certainly found an attorney willing to feed it to him, eh??

Here's praying the court sees this situation for what it is & makes him WISH for supervised visitation. Hang in there!

Sasha1972

Hi everyone,

Would anyone be willing to give me a read on whether I should freak out about this? The excerpt below is from a long letter that ex sent my lawyer for no apparent reason. Most of it is standard poor-me stuff about how his two ex-wives made his life so terrible that he took to drink, but there's some of it that touches on parenting Kid.

I don't have sufficient emotional distance to determine whether I should flag this to the child protection workers that were involved with him after he drove drunk with Kid, or to my lawyer so my lawyer can complain to his lawyer, or to the therapist Kid is seeing, or whether I should just take this as ex being a jerk and let it go rather than adding to drama. I really worry about emotional manipulation and the triangulation that is part of addict behavior (us two against Mom), but I don't know what to do about it, other than go after sole custody, which I am doing.

Here it is. Opinions welcome

********************
I have not tried to alienate Kid from her mother. I have said negative things about her mother, including that I think some of her behavior lies in personal malice, and called her an ‘*******’ in a text message. I have also said numerous times to Kid that I recognize that Mom has valid concerns about Kid when she is with me, and that her mother loves her very much.

Mom and I parent very differently, and I believe that a very mature 12 year old is entitled to a high degree of openness and emotional honesty. I said such things to Kid to encourage her to speak to me and to open up about her feelings, as I believe she is too guarded about such matters. One of the reasons for these conversations has been to help Kid to express her anger with her mother over a variety of issues; I believe doing this will actually help their relationship.


****************

Ariesagain

So...he's a therapist now?

Flag it.

Your daughter is at an age where she would start to separate from you under normal circumstances. It's part of being an adolescent.

That he is encouraging her to be angry at you is triangulation at its finest and is hardly the united team required for healthy parenting. It's really concerning because I could see her being talked into disappearing with him...just the two of them against the world.

In short, he's an arrogant smarmy toolbag and I would think any judge who's been on the bench longer than twenty minutes would see through this.

But report it. At best it's unhealthy and it's great evidence as to where his mind really is.

hopeful4

I would report it myself.

Many hugs friend.

FireSprite

Agree - red flag activity right there. I'd talk to my attorney about it first & proceed based on their recommendation.

Being me, I'd also make sure my attorney understands triangulation instead of assuming that they do - most are not experts in addict behavior or emotional manipulation & simply don't know. Ask if a letter from kid's counselors addressing the harm of this dynamic would be helpful as a counterpoint so that info isn't coming from you, but a mental health professional. Ex believes this will help your relationship? Who cares? He's not qualified to even make such assumptions!

He admits to name calling, etc which ARE examples of alienating kid from mother - he's really shooting himself in the foot here.

AnvilheadII

that's.just.creepy. bordering on an adult "grooming" a minor child in a VERY unparental way. yes definitely flag it, yes make sure your attorney is aware. does your child have a GAL?

ugh. i'm not sure what the "agreement" states but i'd very much WANT to block him from being able to contact her directly any further. he's a very "sick" man.........

LexieCat

I see it as simply laying the groundwork for his defense. His lawyer would have a conniption fit if he knew his client was contacting the other side directly. Even a sleazy lawyer could see that his client should NOT be putting all his dysfunction on display.

What an utter TOOL he is.

I don't think you need to run to CPS with it. They wouldn't do anything. Put it where it will do the most good--in the hands of your lawyer. You might want to discuss with your lawyer whether to retain an expert to provide an opinion on the effects of this kind of behavior. I mean, hopefully the court is smart enough to realize how wildly inappropriate and harmful this kind of interaction with a child is. Your lawyer will know whether an expert is necessary with this particular judge.

In short, don't panic. You already knew he was doing this, so it's not that much of a revelation. What's nice is that he's admitting it.

Sasha1972

Thanks - I'm never sure what's an underreaction or an overreaction, maybe because I got habituated to ex over the course of the marriage, so I don't entirely trust myself to spot truly awful behavior. I will email lawyer to be sure he saw it, but not do anything else. I suppose I should be grateful that ex cut out the middleman and delivered the evidence straight to my lawyer.

On what planet does it make sense to go around TELLING people you are alienating your child from the other parent, especially people who work for the other parent? More indications that there's something cognitively wrong?

(And this is a bit of a rant so feel free to not read: I am doing all the work of parenting a preadolescent - do your homework, no you can't watch R-rated movies, put away your clean laundry, sure I'll drive you to your friend's house, yes you can go to the sleepover, I still love you even though you're mad at me, AND carrying all the financial costs AND being the emotional buffer and shock absorber for the crap her father pulls on her through his drinking - and he gets a couple of hours every few days - enough time to feed her pizza, watch some TV that she can't watch at my place, play with the puppy he bought for her (because I can't have a dog at my place) have a little bit of quality fun time without any of the distractions of actually running a home and raising a child. And then at the end of two hours, she gets sent home with me and he can break out the beers. He treats her like a toy that he can pick up and play with when he feels like it, while doing none of the work. And has the gall to think that he has any idea what kind of relationship she should have with me. Massive parenting fail on so many grounds).

Ariesagain

Yep. That would frost me, big time. I just hope your daughter gets it...she probably does. Kids have an amazing ability to sense who's really in their corner and who's just using them as a pawn in their own ego game.

But the less time he has alone with her, the better...it's just twisted.

LexieCat

TBH, I don't think this has anything to do with his theories about parenting--yours or his. He is simply resentful, and taking it out on you, and the kid is just a pawn as far as he's concerned. You are obviously viewed as the better parent--he sees all of this as a big "dis" of him, he sees you as "winning" and himself as "losing" this game (which is how he perceives it), so he's trying to manipulate and maneuver. He actually DOESN'T care about his own parenting, or even yours--he just cares about his image. To himself and to others. Of course, since he's a pathetic drunk he is going about it in an entirely ineffective way. Which is, ironically, something to be thankful for. Some abusers are much more clever and, thus, more dangerous. Yours is more of a buffoon. It's just a shame that kiddo is hurt by his behavior.

Sasha1972

Lexie, you're right - this is all about image management for him, which is connected to shame, drinking being only one of the dysfunctional ways he shuts out the feeling of being overwhelmed by shame. Except a) he's currently so far gone that he doesn't realize his efforts to make himself look good at others' expense actually make him look like an utter tool; and b) when you drink that much, you inevitably do things that bring on even more shame. Learning about how shame works was really important for me in understanding WTF was going on with my then-husband and his booze.

His hostility is ramped up for people who have seen what a mess he is behind the (former) golden-boy facade - so the hatred gets directed at me, at his second ex-wife, at the director of Kid's after-school who had to deal with his drunken self, at one of his sisters who's got his number, at my best friend ... We could have been allies in his recovery, but he made the choice to treat us as enemies, because we no longer buy into the narrative that he is always right and everything would be fine if people just stopped stressing him.

tomsteve

from personal experience, i agree with this.
although i wasnt a 100% assclown to his mom( usually ran about 48% with flareups to 150%. we were young when we got together and we BOTH had issues that werent addressed. she was a wee bit physically and verbally abusive. its a long story, but im truly glad we both got the help we needed years later
there were times i said and did some very cruel things out of resentment.
and what does a good practicing alcoholic do when full of resentment?
retaliate- im going to hurt her because i was hurting.i didnt see that part til i got sober. but when i would do or say something either to her or my son and it hurt her, without even knowing it at the time, whole gobs of pride and ego driven chest pumping happened.
and when it didnt bother her?
i burned up a LOT of energy and time thinking of ways to push her buttons and hurt her as much as i was hurting.


about them theories about parenting? quite often my theories would be the opposite of his moms. even though her way was the right way every friggin time and i knew it, id push buttons out of resentment.


i read quite a bit of the old me in this man. i truly hope this gets over soon for ya and applaud you for your strength and courage to trudge through it.
i also applaud you for recognizing the uncertainty of your thinking and reaching out!

Ariesagain

I reread this today...this leaps out at me...

"Mom and I parent very differently, and I believe that a very mature 12 year old is entitled to a high degree of openness and emotional honesty. I said such things to Kid to encourage her to speak to me and to open up about her feelings, as I believe she is too guarded about such matters."

This is predatory behavior...it's grooming language. I don't know who he was before the alcoholism took over, but at this point, having someone he can completely control and who looks up to him is very, very attractive. Perhaps to a scary degree.

I really don't mean to give you even more to worry about, but having had some experience with this...

Sasha1972

I am worried about it. Feeling "special" to an adult is very attractive to a child, especially as has been the case here, where she hasn't seen much of him for a long time (when he was with ex-wife 2, Kid said she felt excluded and not given attention, between the new wife and the stepkid). Now she has the chance to be the centre of attention for her father, so if insulting and derogating Mom is part of the deal, she has strong incentives to go along with it in order to keep Dad's attention, which she hasn't had much of for a long time.

There's a streak of misogyny in there as well - everyone that he's demonized (his alcoholic mother, his sister, me, ex-wife #2, my friends, the director of Kid's after-school care) has been a woman, and Kid is on the brink of adolescence (not just a child any more). I worry about what will happen in terms of her own attitudes towards being female when she hears about all these malicious women that are out to get her father, including her mother. I also worry about the moment when she disappoints or makes her dad angry. I can see him flipping, and targeting his daughter as just another evil woman, when she's no longer a cute kid.

However, I don't know what to do. Kid is in counselling and Alateen. She sees her father for short visits a few times a week. I can't justify cutting off visits altogether because then I'm fulfilling her father's account of me. He hasn't overtly threatened her or me so I can't get a protection order. I am trying to get sole custody through lawyers, and I think that my chances are good once I get in front of a judge or arbitrator, given the amount of evidence ex has handed me, but the legal process is frigging SLOW.

Honestly, the best thing right now would be for ex to throw rocks at me or threaten to kill me - then I could get an order on an emergency basis. Until he does that, or something comparable, I am stuck working through the system and trying to be the best possible parent for Kid in the interim. Thank God for Al-Anon.

LexieCat

Hugs, Sasha,

You're a great mom, and handling this with great aplomb and good sense. You're really doing everything that can be done, and as worrying as this all is, I have a feeling your daughter will come through it intact.

I forget, is she getting any counseling? I can imagine she might be resistant, but this is where parents get to exercise their parental authority. She can't be forced to participate, but you can make her go, and good therapists have ways of getting kids to open up even if they are resistant.

Sasha1972

Yes, she's seeing a counsellor about every two weeks - she has an appointment tonight, in fact. We lucked out on the counsellor - she's a very trendy young(ish) woman, who also has years of experience working in addictions (mainly street drugs but also alcohol). Kid thinks she's cool.

Sasha1972

Latest from ex. He no longer considers himself an alcoholic and does not believe he needs to abstain from alcohol (except when he is in "certain moods"). He will continue to drink as part of his "recovery". Everything is the fault of his mother and his two ex-wives and he does not have a drinking problem. All his counsellors and therapists agree with him on this.

I'm starting to wonder if on some level he would actually prefer me to have custody of Kid. Why would he go out of his way to let me know that he's not even going to pretend to stop drinking, when he knows that the basis of my bid for sole custody is that he's shown himself to be dangerous when he's drunk?

I know it's impossible to try to figure out why a career alcoholic does the things he does. I really want to get in front of a judge soon.

Ariesagain

Did he put that in writing, I hope?

LexieCat

Lots of alcoholics have a self-destructive streak. I wouldn't analyze it too closely. It can only help you at this point.

Sasha1972

Yup. Also put in writing that yes, he does indeed say insulting things about me to Kid because he wants to "help her express her anger towards Mom". And that my lawyer is incompetent and dumber than his lawyer. And that he's going to "fight [me] to the end, tooth and nail" to prevent me from getting custody of Kid. And that I am a "police suspect" in sabotaging his car (which is news to me). And that he has never driven drunk, but if he did it was because he was taking the wrong antidepressant. And that his meth-addict girlfriend's parents have kidnapped her daughter and are hiding her whereabouts by registering all their properties to a numbered company, but he and the meth girlfriend are going to sue them in the supreme court to get back her baby.

And a long paragraph beginning "Let me give you a little free legal advice ..." in which he tells me that I have to do what he says or I will be committing "violations of federal law and human rights". I am amazed by what he commits to writing. Where to start?