LexieCat

Trust me, the EXACT same thought crossed my mind regarding the relative speed/functionality of brain and basic motor skills.

GM REALLY DO TA.

Ladybird579

[QUOTE=aliciagr;6480957]Progress
because he stopped blaming you.

Sorry but I see this as a massive quacking session to get what he wants which is a continued peaceful status quo to drink in. He never apologised. OP has no proof he's stopped blaming her at all.


Progress
because he is at least examining his life, and triggers, stress.
Lots of times you will hear the concept a person in recovery is expected to build an strong iron wall and is capable of meeting any challenge with sobriety.

No not progress. . He's making excuses as to why he drinks. More quacking.

aliciagr

[QUOTE=Ladybird579;6481154] I am taking into account that he had been sober for approx 2 months and took the step to go on Antabuse (unless I have the poster mixed up). His drinking appears to have been triggered by his inability to deal with his emotions when he was upset over not attending a family function. I feel he is in a place right now where he does not have proper coping tools. I took it as he came in peace to talk to his wife and wasnt actively pointing blame or anger at her during this conversation.

I believe that there is a process one goes through in dealing with substance abuse. The simple answer is just dont drink. But I dont personally believe that the majority of people abuse substances because its their natural state of being. There are reasons, emotions, triggers involved. Its why tools like CBT , and psychologists are around to help people work on these issues and gain power over their own minds and actions. At least he is recognizing triggers and emotions within himself even if he doesnt have a full understanding or the tools he needs at this point.

So after 2 months, he can now make this an excuse and keep drinking, or he can try to do continue what he was doing for 2 months and look for more answers. I think its a process.

Im basing my views on the experience I went through with my husband and stuff I learned in therapy.

Personally, I dont think Batchel should think too much about what he said. Nothing has changed that I see to alter her decision to separate and consider divorce.

AnvilheadII

At least he is recognizing triggers and emotions within himself even if he doesnt have a full understanding or the tools he needs at this point.

that statement is giving the AH a LOT of credit for a thought process that doesn't seem evident to many of us here. he wasn't being self-reflective whatsover.....he's coming up with yet another line of bull hoping SHE will buy it, let him back in, so he can quit he good paying job, then suddenly be UNABLE to find another one and sign up for some fly-by-night online academy and have HER pay for everything. nowhere in his introspection did he make any discoveries about what HE might CHANGE, what he might DO that falls anywhere within how to get and maintain sobriety. nowhere did he sound humble or contrite, or even aware how his jackassery MIGHT affect those around him.

aliciagr

If you, or anyone else would like to send me a p.m. I would be happy to discuss the Process of Change Methodology that was shared with my in therapy. It goes much deeper than: ready. not ready. And everything in between is not simply viewed as manipulation because the person is not ready. There is pre-contemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, maintenance, and termination. And a person does not necessarily move smoothly through this process. Relapses, slips and a lot of confusion come along with the process.

I have never seen anything on this forum that touches on this subject which is unfortunate. I wasnt exposed to it through Alanon either, but I have found it helpful and maybe based on your comments, its made me a bit more broad in my interpretation of events when dealing with my husband and less quick to judge his words unless there is some action. I tend to use it when I read posts and use that thought process to reply.

In this case, I dont even see where Batchels husband put pressure on her to support him financially or anything along that line. I thought they lived apart and were doing things independently. She simply told him to do whatever he felt was best for himself.

The process of change was explained to me in terms of it being important for family members so we can manage our expectations, look at behaviors rationally with less of an emotional bent. We can even help our partners progress through the stages sometimes. One of the concepts is also that we dont need to look so deeply into one interaction, become emotional over it, or let it distract us from the bigger picture. The bigger picture for family members is seeing the complexities of the recovery process, where our partner might be, and using it to help us make the best decisions for our own life.

In this case, I see nothing to change the status quo.

Refiner

Woooooowwwww this brings back nightmare memories. Exact same thing with my XAH and I was the breadwinner. I separated the finances (his "paycheck" went to his account, mine to mine. And we divvied up the monthly bills). That all lasted about 1-1/2 years until we filled for divorce.

LexieCat

Look, I know ALL about pre-contemplation, etc. I "pre-contemplated" for a good four or more years. A lot of alcoholics never get past that pre-contemplation into actual, productive effort.

So yes, I think all of that is perfectly normal for alcoholics not yet ready to change. The only thing that got ME ready (and most of the sober people I know) is being in dire enough circumstances that sobriety starts to look like the only realistic option. The other options--change of job, change of partner, getting a degree, hitchhiking across Europe--are virtually inexhaustible. I know people who have been chasing them for years--decades.

batchel could be in for a very long wait, indeed, if she thinks this is some kind of hopeful sign of progress. Because there's no way to know how long he may be stuck there. And in the meantime, everyone else is paying the price.

Ladybird579

Aliciagr In this case, I dont even see where Batchels husband put pressure on her to support him financially or anything along that line.

She does say I feel very unwilling to have him live off me and support him through another degree where things stand currently.

So I think the assumption we made was that would be the only way forward he would have.

I know you are doing therapy and have many different ideas and theories put to you but if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like one it probably is one. My exah "pre-contemplated" for 30 years. Which amounted to zip. I think we over complicate things sometimes. It makes us codies feel better lol

aliciagr

I personally dont think codependency has anything to do with educating yourself on addiction and recovery. Understanding the cycle of addiction has actually helped me get a better understanding of whats involved and how lengthy the process can be. But you know we each have to examine our own lives and make a decision - Am I: content, safe, happy, fulfilled - or do I want something else for my future.. This has nothing to do with what stage of recovery my partner is in.

batchel9

Thanks everyone for the responses! They have been very helpful and confirm what I have been suspecting. I saw questions, which I will elaborate on later.

In the meantime, I wanted to ask another question. AH and I are meeting to discuss tonight. He asks me what recovery looks like to me. And I struggle to answer this question. I don't know as much as you all in this field. I just know that he isn't doing anything that he hasn't already done in the past therefore why should I expect a different result.

How do I answer this question? What does a true recovering alcoholic look like?
Also open to meetings, methodologies, books etc you guys know to be helpful.

Thanks in advance!!!

Refiner

This is what you wrote in April: " Things I described him as things I would expect or want to be seeing was more frequent meetings, counseling, reading books, making healthier lifestyle changes (exercising, more sleep, etc), and kicking other bad habits (chewing tobacco)."

AnvilheadII

not to be snarky, but i think, ahem, NOT DRINKING AT ALL WHATSOVER should probably be on the list, up near the top......

batchel9

Right. This is what IIIII think he should be doing. But I'm no professional. Just wanted to hear from you all.

SparkleKitty

I think all you need to tell him is that you'll know when you see it.

It sounds like he's setting you up to give him a checklist of stuff to look like he's doing, so that later he can say "But I did everything you said!!"

His recovery is HIS, and needs to be designed, embraced, and ultimately implemented by him without your input, review, or approval. There are no guarantees, and it sounds like he's looking for one from you that if he does everything you say, things can go back to "normal."

LexieCat

Exactly. This is game-playing on his part.

The thing is, by now you know that controlled drinking is not an option. It is not sustainable for an alcoholic. You also know alcoholism, when it isn't arrested by ceasing to drink, is progressive. So it will definitely get worse, not better, as long as he's drinking.

The bottom line is that someone in recovery has accepted the fact that s/he can no longer drink. He hasn't. It isn't a matter of meetings, or taking care of necessary household responsibilities. People can do that for a pretty long time--life can LOOK manageable. But alcoholics are always planning the next drink. So they aren't really "present" in day-to-day life. The drinking inevitably takes priority over other things in life.

He doesn't have to meet some arbitrary criteria. From everything you've posted, it sounds as if you emotionally have one foot out the door. Given that he's showing no signs of imminent permanent sobriety, how much time do you want to waste on an unsatisfying marriage, that is probably going to cause further harm to your family?

honeypig

batchel, I think the members who've said it's not a good idea to get involved w/making a "laundry list" for him to check off. I think they are exactly right that he will use this to guilt you and beat you up, saying that he did everything you wanted and how you are so unreasonable and holy cow, he worked so hard and YOU STILL AREN'T HAPPY, what do you WANT?!?

Then, if you have any fears he can play on (which I surely did), you'll hear how you will never find anyone who can meet your ridiculous standards, there is no one else who would put up with you, etc., so that you end up truly afraid that you really ARE doomed to a life of being alone b/c you are just too demanding.

I do agree w/Anvil, though, that no drinking ever (and no substituting another addiction for drinking) is an absolute necessity. Until that condition is met, and met for an extended period of time (a year minimum?), there is no point in talking about anything else. If you make that point non-negotiable, I'm guessing that will cut the discussion pretty short...

It took me many, many small steps to finally get XAH out of the house, so I can relate to this. I remember him asking me once, after a period of maybe 2 weeks tops of alleged sobriety, when our sex life would return to normal, b/c if it didn't do so soon, well then, what was even the point of him getting sober? After I picked my jaw up off the ground, I said "I have no clue when/if that might happen, but considering that we've been struggling here for YEARS, I don't think that it's gonna be in terms of a couple of weeks." Looking back, yep, "recovery" was all about what HE wanted, which should have been a red flag for me that it really wasn’t recovery at all.

Another time he was berating me about some issues in the marriage that were "preventing him from getting sober" (honestly don't even remember what the problem(s) was/were). He blathered on in a very non-specific manner about these things and finally I said "I'm not sure exactly what you want to happen. Can you describe what this would look like?" He stopped, sat there for a minute, started to talk a couple of times, then finally said "I have no idea. I really don't know." OK, kudos to you for saying that, at least!

In my case, there was a certain amount of his trying to keep the status quo, but looking back, and speaking with as much honesty as I can muster, it was way more on me--I really, really, REALLY didn't want to have to change things. Not my finances, not how the work around here got done, not how I spent my time, not a damn thing. I was unhappy but secure in it, if that makes any kind of twisted sense to you.

Once he finally moved out, he made no attempts of any kind to get back together. We do talk regularly, and he’s helped me w/a number of things—learning snowblower maintenance, getting vast amounts of contractor stuff sold/donated out of brother’s big pole barn here, etc. But he doesn’t ask about moving back out here, or getting together again. And this has really made me take a long, hard look at my part in all we went through—how much of this could I have avoided had I been more willing to stand on my own 2 feet sooner? While I didn’t cause the drinking, I am a LOT more responsible for how long I stayed in the marriage and for what I was willing to accept as “good enough” than I would have admitted even 6 months ago, let alone back when I was in the thick of it.

Good luck, batchel, and stay strong. Things do look really, really different from the outside, and I think you’ve already experienced some of that.

LexieCat

GREAT post, hp. To me, the bottom line is this: when one partner considers sobriety not an option, and the other partner is increasingly unhappy with the relationship as long as the drinking is in the picture, there is no workable "compromise"--no meeting in the middle. One person or the other--most likely both--is going to be unhappy/resentful, and it has no real possibility of improving.

53500

Batchel, fwiw I agree with the other posters who said your ah wants to change everything about his life except drinking. If I were you I would *not* sign off on supporting him while he pursues another degree. Odds are, if he continues to drink, the "other degree" will never materialize and the "supporting him" will go on and on and on.

Lots of people like their jobs but the ones who don't change them without abandoning their other responsibilities. Like being sober, like paying bills. As someone else said, he could go to school while continuing to work. It's not easy but many people do it. You are absolutely on base. His job is not causing him to drink.

Lolol. Me too.

Refiner

My bad for posting your "list" from April. I should have known better. I this Lexie's sentence sums it up the best: *To me, the bottom line is this: when one partner considers sobriety not an option, and the other partner is increasingly unhappy with the relationship as long as the drinking is in the picture, there is no workable "compromise"--no meeting in the middle*

So, how did the "meet in the middle" conversation happen last night, Batchel?

aliciagr

Batchel,

I hope things went ok last night.
There are a lot of preconceived notions about what "recovery" looks like, but in truth there is no right way, or wrong way to deal with a substance abuse problem. And there is no set rules for what family members have to do, think, or feel either.

I just saw the list that you wrote earlier, and you want to know what I see? Overall you are concerned about his health. Eat better, sleep more, exercise, stop dangerous things like using tobacco, and drinking because of how it affects him. And based on some other things Ive read, how he handles stress and copes with life's problems.

These are honest opinions and nothing that a spouse shouldnt be able to share with their partner. The rules dont really change just because alcohol is involved. Thats giving way too much power to a substance.

Im linking another thread here for you. Especially on page 3, the post by Soberlicious, because what is defined here directly relates to how people deal and overcome alcohol abuse. Maybe it will help you when you think about what "recovery" should look like.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...spouse-3.html?