Has my recovering ABF abusive tendencies?
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Join Date: Jun 2016
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There is no excuse for someone to tell you to f* off. Throwing stuff is a deal breaker.
I lived with the guy who punched a few holes in the wall over 12 years together - we have a child together
Sounds like you are dealing with a typical dry drunk.
Sorry - but you have a choice to get out of it.
Good luck and hugs to you
I lived with the guy who punched a few holes in the wall over 12 years together - we have a child together
Sounds like you are dealing with a typical dry drunk.
Sorry - but you have a choice to get out of it.
Good luck and hugs to you
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Originally Posted by Nata1980 
Sounds like you are dealing with a typical dry drunk.
Not trying to start an argument, just noting that "dry drunk" behavior does not typically involve abuse--which is a separate issue from alcoholism.
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Over the past months (since getting sober) I struggled on an off with anxiety, depression and feeling suicidal. I think I fell right back into that hole.
The relationship to my BF is what gave me hope and strength, it was the only thing I thought I had going for me, the one thing in my life that I liked and that made me feel good.
Now I feel like this part is taken away from me or at least threatened.
The relationship to my BF is what gave me hope and strength, it was the only thing I thought I had going for me, the one thing in my life that I liked and that made me feel good.
Now I feel like this part is taken away from me or at least threatened.
You are in the right place.
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The relationship to my BF is what gave me hope and strength, it was the only thing I thought I had going for me, the one thing in my life that I liked and that made me feel good.
Now I feel like this part is taken away from me or at least threatened.
that's a very UNhealthy dependence upon another person. if you feel he gave you a gift of helping your thru the early days, then HONOR that gift now and learn to be self-sufficient and INdependent. it is not his or anyone else's responsibility to MAKE you feel ok, to MAKE you feel safe. it's in fact dangerous to hand that task over to anyone else, because one can end up in a toxic situation where one party controls and the other acquiesces in order to keep them around.
breathe your own air. encourage your own happiness. learn to enjoy simply being.
Now I feel like this part is taken away from me or at least threatened.
that's a very UNhealthy dependence upon another person. if you feel he gave you a gift of helping your thru the early days, then HONOR that gift now and learn to be self-sufficient and INdependent. it is not his or anyone else's responsibility to MAKE you feel ok, to MAKE you feel safe. it's in fact dangerous to hand that task over to anyone else, because one can end up in a toxic situation where one party controls and the other acquiesces in order to keep them around.
breathe your own air. encourage your own happiness. learn to enjoy simply being.
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Thank you everyone again for sharing your thoughts and advice with me, I valuation this so much. I'm sorry it took me some days to answer but this is a bit much and extremely confusing to me. I still have lots of thinking left to do.
I write this after having spend a lovely Easter weekend with my boyfriend. At the moment I think my therapist and me might have over reacted a bit and focused too much on what my BF did wrong, ignoring where I behaved in a not so ideal way.
I talked to my boyfriend on Thursday night and told him, that I git scared when he shouted at me and that I think he could remain calmer, especially when I'm already overly emotional and crying. This made him angry, cause he said I was just blaming him and only focusing on his behaviour when it was me who started the fight and he wanted to leave. He was cynical about that this would be the best for me anyway if he's such a horrible boyfriend and that he doesn't even understand why I want him to stay.
I then told him that I wasn't trying to blame him, that I know that I'm very insecure at the moment and I shouldn't let this effect the way I expect him to feel and think about me so much and should trust him more. I also said that he's not a bad or horrible boyfriend but that to me, there's still this unresolved problem of his anger and shouting in situations like this. And I asked him to stay because if we want to make this relationship work, we'd have to work our way through this, even if it's uncomfortable. But running away again, not talking for some days and then pretending like nothing has happened just to keep the peace wouldn't work for me. So he stayed. I think this was good because I feel like I didn't try to control him to stay but he understood my point and stayed.
The next morning when we both were calmer, I told him what my therapist said, about him being abusive when shouting and saying mean things. And that its manipulating when he justifies his shouting by my crying. At first he was angry again and said how it was so unfair of my therapist to say such mean things about him without having ever met him. And again he said, he doesn't understand why we're talking about him again, when it was me who started the fight. He also explained that he got so angry cause to him it felt like I was blaming him for my insecurities and telling him how he did everything wrong and how he felt like I was running him over and he had to stand up for himself.
I was very sad at this point cause I thought he'd never understand my point of view. But to my surprise, later that day he said how he has thought about this and came to the conclusion that everything my therapist said was right. He still thinks that there are still many things I need to work on too (trusting him, not worrying so much to the point where I am almost paranoid, not feeling rejected when he needs space/time for himself) which I agree on. But he also said, that he now understands how my crying and his shouting isn't the same cause crying isn't harmful to others. And he admitted that it is unfair to take his anger out on me and that he can't do that. And he said he might be too sensitive and feeling criticised to easily as he noticed that happening to him at work too. So he wants to work on all these things and said he really wants our relationship to work and would do whatever it takes to make me happy.
To me this sounds good and like he understands me. I do want this relationship very much and I think we both are honest with each other and I do believe him when he says that he only wants my best. I do also believe him when he says that he wants to work on himself and I will do the same. I will keep an eye on this though.
I write this after having spend a lovely Easter weekend with my boyfriend. At the moment I think my therapist and me might have over reacted a bit and focused too much on what my BF did wrong, ignoring where I behaved in a not so ideal way.
I talked to my boyfriend on Thursday night and told him, that I git scared when he shouted at me and that I think he could remain calmer, especially when I'm already overly emotional and crying. This made him angry, cause he said I was just blaming him and only focusing on his behaviour when it was me who started the fight and he wanted to leave. He was cynical about that this would be the best for me anyway if he's such a horrible boyfriend and that he doesn't even understand why I want him to stay.
I then told him that I wasn't trying to blame him, that I know that I'm very insecure at the moment and I shouldn't let this effect the way I expect him to feel and think about me so much and should trust him more. I also said that he's not a bad or horrible boyfriend but that to me, there's still this unresolved problem of his anger and shouting in situations like this. And I asked him to stay because if we want to make this relationship work, we'd have to work our way through this, even if it's uncomfortable. But running away again, not talking for some days and then pretending like nothing has happened just to keep the peace wouldn't work for me. So he stayed. I think this was good because I feel like I didn't try to control him to stay but he understood my point and stayed.
The next morning when we both were calmer, I told him what my therapist said, about him being abusive when shouting and saying mean things. And that its manipulating when he justifies his shouting by my crying. At first he was angry again and said how it was so unfair of my therapist to say such mean things about him without having ever met him. And again he said, he doesn't understand why we're talking about him again, when it was me who started the fight. He also explained that he got so angry cause to him it felt like I was blaming him for my insecurities and telling him how he did everything wrong and how he felt like I was running him over and he had to stand up for himself.
I was very sad at this point cause I thought he'd never understand my point of view. But to my surprise, later that day he said how he has thought about this and came to the conclusion that everything my therapist said was right. He still thinks that there are still many things I need to work on too (trusting him, not worrying so much to the point where I am almost paranoid, not feeling rejected when he needs space/time for himself) which I agree on. But he also said, that he now understands how my crying and his shouting isn't the same cause crying isn't harmful to others. And he admitted that it is unfair to take his anger out on me and that he can't do that. And he said he might be too sensitive and feeling criticised to easily as he noticed that happening to him at work too. So he wants to work on all these things and said he really wants our relationship to work and would do whatever it takes to make me happy.
To me this sounds good and like he understands me. I do want this relationship very much and I think we both are honest with each other and I do believe him when he says that he only wants my best. I do also believe him when he says that he wants to work on himself and I will do the same. I will keep an eye on this though.
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Originally Posted by kevlarsjal
To me this sounds good and like he understands me.
I'd be very, VERY surprised if this presages any kind of real commitment to change. My own guess is that he will substitute sarcasm, expressions of barely-repressed rage, or other similarly nasty reactions.
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Lexie, what you said about enduring his behaviour for the nicer parts of the relationship, like keeping on drinking despite the negative effects. I think maybe yes, I definitely think that I cling onto this relationship a lot, it really means extremely much to me. But then I think that's normal when you really love someone and I feel like it's also normal to accept that it can't always be sunshine and that he's just human, making mistakes, like I do too. After all I know I'm not easy at the moment and he is willing to support and help me and work through this. I think I find it very difficult to compare because alcohol is a substance that is 100% predictable and won't ever change and obviously doesn't care about me in the slightest way. And my boyfriend is a human with emotions, issues and moods who cares a lot about me. So it's difficult for me to compare my relationship to alcohol to the relationship with him. Also this relationship is very lovely and I feel good in it 99% of the time. We argue rarely, this happens maybe every other month but normally not to this intensity. Every time we had an argument it was the same pattern though. But I understand what you mean.
I don't have a sponsor, I'm not going to AA at the moment. I still haven't figured out the whole HP thing (just doesn't work for me yet) so I find it impossible to work on the steps. I will discuss it more with my therapist though.
2ndhandrose/ firebolt/AnvilheadII, thanks!
what you said about hope, strength and happiness coming from me is something I really have to work on. It'll be a long way I think. I first have to get to know me, start accepting me, liking and trusting me. But I'm getting there, baby steps though.
Nata/Lexie: I thought about the dry drunk too. He was sober for a while before, not changing anything in his life, then relapsing and drinking for a couple of was all before we met. He said back then in his first period of sobriety he was a dry drunk. But he thinks now he isn't cause he does running and painting to deal with his anxiety and tries to take better care of himself, getting to know himself better. I think that's very good and he seems to be doing alright. But he still suffers from depression, anxiety, worries a lot and isn't that good at dealing with emotions (mine or his). Not blaming him, I'm the same (minus the anger). But he never tried therapy or really worked the steps. So I think there's definitely room for improvement and I think he could do more. Which he agrees on. I really hope he'll give therapy a chance, not just for our relationship but also for himself.
I don't have a sponsor, I'm not going to AA at the moment. I still haven't figured out the whole HP thing (just doesn't work for me yet) so I find it impossible to work on the steps. I will discuss it more with my therapist though.
2ndhandrose/ firebolt/AnvilheadII, thanks!
what you said about hope, strength and happiness coming from me is something I really have to work on. It'll be a long way I think. I first have to get to know me, start accepting me, liking and trusting me. But I'm getting there, baby steps though. Nata/Lexie: I thought about the dry drunk too. He was sober for a while before, not changing anything in his life, then relapsing and drinking for a couple of was all before we met. He said back then in his first period of sobriety he was a dry drunk. But he thinks now he isn't cause he does running and painting to deal with his anxiety and tries to take better care of himself, getting to know himself better. I think that's very good and he seems to be doing alright. But he still suffers from depression, anxiety, worries a lot and isn't that good at dealing with emotions (mine or his). Not blaming him, I'm the same (minus the anger). But he never tried therapy or really worked the steps. So I think there's definitely room for improvement and I think he could do more. Which he agrees on. I really hope he'll give therapy a chance, not just for our relationship but also for himself.
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I still haven't figured out the whole HP thing (just doesn't work for me yet)
i'd say to a large degree you have put your abf in the position of your HP, right now. you look to him for solace, support, guidance....and if you two are aligned that you feel like EVERYTHING is ok.......even if it isn't.
alcoholics make alcohol their higher power -their guide, their answer to everything.
a true Higher Power is simply the belief that there is SOMETHING out there greater than us little humans, who can't control our next trip to the ladies room, much less anything else. you could see it as just the "good" in the world - or the way the Universe works, order in chaos.
just continue to keep an open mind. to all things.
i'd say to a large degree you have put your abf in the position of your HP, right now. you look to him for solace, support, guidance....and if you two are aligned that you feel like EVERYTHING is ok.......even if it isn't.
alcoholics make alcohol their higher power -their guide, their answer to everything.
a true Higher Power is simply the belief that there is SOMETHING out there greater than us little humans, who can't control our next trip to the ladies room, much less anything else. you could see it as just the "good" in the world - or the way the Universe works, order in chaos.
just continue to keep an open mind. to all things.
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Well, a sponsor's job is to help you understand the Steps so you can work them. You don't figure them out first and THEN find a sponsor. You don't have to start out with an understanding of your conception of a higher power. You just start out with the idea that you aren't all-powerful, and there are things, people, and situations out of your control. I personally have a very vague sense of what my Higher Power is, but I know there are times when I am able to do things that have no reason to believe I'm responsible for--whether it's inside or outside of me, it's higher than my own consciousness.
I'm not suggesting that your attachment to him is exactly like your attachment to alcohol, but there are enough similarities that the analogy still is useful. It may be that you are looking to him, in the same way you did alcohol, to fill that "hole in the soul" that we have, rather than nurturing your own life so another person is a beneficial aspect of your life, rather than someone you NEED.
Yes, we are all human and no doubt you, like all of us, are sometimes "difficult" to get along with. That has nothing to do with whether someone else is entitled to yell at you or put you down in response. That isn't acceptable behavior. Don't go taking responsibility for his behavior.
I'm not suggesting that your attachment to him is exactly like your attachment to alcohol, but there are enough similarities that the analogy still is useful. It may be that you are looking to him, in the same way you did alcohol, to fill that "hole in the soul" that we have, rather than nurturing your own life so another person is a beneficial aspect of your life, rather than someone you NEED.
Yes, we are all human and no doubt you, like all of us, are sometimes "difficult" to get along with. That has nothing to do with whether someone else is entitled to yell at you or put you down in response. That isn't acceptable behavior. Don't go taking responsibility for his behavior.
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I do understand the concept of a HP and I see the benefits of it. What I find impossible to do is to trust something that I can't see/understand/know for sure it exists. But I'm working on having a more positive outlook on life, being more optimistic, wanting to control less, letting go more, worrying less and trusting more. I think this might me what a HP is meant for anyway. But I also chose to trust my BF in this and see how he will handle arguments in the future.
I'm not sure I see him as my HP. Maybe I'm blind but I would say no. He is a very important part of my life and of course if I think our relationship isn't going well or endangered it makes me very worried. That's because lots of areas in my life aren't going well (family, friends, finances, health all have been big problem areas on and off in the past year) so if this area which normally provides some kind of stability is problematic too, it effects me more than it would if the other parts of my life would be better and more stable.
I do look at him for support, but I also look for that from one friend that I opened up about my alcoholism to and from my therapist.
To a certain degree a look for guidance when it comes to recovery because he's been through this for longer. But I also look for some kind of guidance in therapy and learning there to listen more to myself, which isn't easy.
Lexie, I take it seriously when he says that he wants to work on it, because (how I know him) he sticks to what he says and is trying to work on himself. He is a people pleaser too, so it made sense to me that he felt like he had to stand up for himself and went a bit overboard with that. This must sound awfully naive to you but I think it would be unfair to him and me to give up on our relationship because of an argument when there's so much love, honesty, support and much more from both sides.
I'm not sure I see him as my HP. Maybe I'm blind but I would say no. He is a very important part of my life and of course if I think our relationship isn't going well or endangered it makes me very worried. That's because lots of areas in my life aren't going well (family, friends, finances, health all have been big problem areas on and off in the past year) so if this area which normally provides some kind of stability is problematic too, it effects me more than it would if the other parts of my life would be better and more stable.
I do look at him for support, but I also look for that from one friend that I opened up about my alcoholism to and from my therapist.
To a certain degree a look for guidance when it comes to recovery because he's been through this for longer. But I also look for some kind of guidance in therapy and learning there to listen more to myself, which isn't easy.
Lexie, I take it seriously when he says that he wants to work on it, because (how I know him) he sticks to what he says and is trying to work on himself. He is a people pleaser too, so it made sense to me that he felt like he had to stand up for himself and went a bit overboard with that. This must sound awfully naive to you but I think it would be unfair to him and me to give up on our relationship because of an argument when there's so much love, honesty, support and much more from both sides.
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What you've been describing, though, isn't "an argument" (as in a onetime meltdown)--you've been describing a pattern of behavior. You've said it's been going on for "months"--and given how short a period of time you've been together, that suggests it isn't just something that's a product of something specific going on in his life or your relationship.
You were concerned enough to bring it up to the therapist, and concerned enough about her take on it to post here. That, to me, suggests it actually IS a pretty big deal for you, and yet you are now minimizing it because people are telling you that it's not a healthy situation for you.
Believe me, I understand the desire to "normalize" everything because it's HARD to face these things. I'd just urge you to keep your eyes and your mind open to what we (and your therapist) are saying.
You were concerned enough to bring it up to the therapist, and concerned enough about her take on it to post here. That, to me, suggests it actually IS a pretty big deal for you, and yet you are now minimizing it because people are telling you that it's not a healthy situation for you.
Believe me, I understand the desire to "normalize" everything because it's HARD to face these things. I'd just urge you to keep your eyes and your mind open to what we (and your therapist) are saying.
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I think you hit a nail there Lexie! Both him and me feel like we fill that "hole of emptiness" we both had all life long. I thought about it before, that it might not be healthy and we might be a bit codependent on each other. But then again I think that I felt this way about him already while I still was drinking. And he didn't feel that way about his ex girlfriends when he already was sober. So maybe we're just happy cause we found in each other what we've always been looking for in a partner. Of course there are some things that aren't perfect and we still see that too. But I think I wouldn't get to the point in life where I'm completely happy without having a family of my own and being in a relationship. I think for me that's a very essential need in life. (Isn't that normal for most people?) So my boyfriend would probably always be more than just a beneficial aspect.
Regarding the HP, that makes sense. I somehow thought I'd have to figure at least that out before I could start with the steps and that there wouldn't be any point in having a sponsor if I can't start working on the steps cause I haven't figured out what my HP is. So I thought I'd just be a burden to whoever would sponsor me.
I will have to do lots of thinking about both of this.
Regarding the HP, that makes sense. I somehow thought I'd have to figure at least that out before I could start with the steps and that there wouldn't be any point in having a sponsor if I can't start working on the steps cause I haven't figured out what my HP is. So I thought I'd just be a burden to whoever would sponsor me.
I will have to do lots of thinking about both of this.
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I know that "hole of emptiness" well. What I learned was that no other person could ever fill that hole for me, and to even expect or ask someone to was a tremendous and hurtful burden. That hole was the root of my codependency. And ultimately, every person I asked to fill it disappointed me. Until I asked myself.
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Yes it's been going on for months. It happened maybe 5-7 times now. Plus some occasions where I was just around when he was losing his nerves and his behaviour upset me cause he'd swear, shout (not at me) and through this around (also never at me). So I think he definitely has problems with controlling his anger and that's my main concern. I don't think he'd harm me but I find it very intimidating and I get scared when I'm around angry men. Probably a bit irrational when his anger wasn't even directed at me in these situations.
I didn't actually bring it up to my therapist, I just told her about the fight and that it's so hard for me to leave things unresolved and not seeing him for so many days without having found a solution. She asked me if he ever shouted at me or used rude language/insulted me when we have arguments and I told her. She saw I shocked I was by what she said and then said it doesn't have to be a reason to leave him but I have to learn to stand up for myself and not tolerate this behaviour.
I never thought of him as abusive of manipulating so I am still extremely confused by all of this. Also I am easily influenced at the moment (by him, by my therapist and by what people say on here) which doesn't help with the "listening to myself, making my own decisions" part I'm working on. It's very very confusing and I can see how it could be that I'm totally wrong about this but at the moment I'm mostly happy with him so I decide to trust him. Why would I end something I still believe in when it's still more good than bad for me (how I see it now) and make both of us unhappy? Just because part of his behaviour isn't okay but he's willing to work on that.
I didn't actually bring it up to my therapist, I just told her about the fight and that it's so hard for me to leave things unresolved and not seeing him for so many days without having found a solution. She asked me if he ever shouted at me or used rude language/insulted me when we have arguments and I told her. She saw I shocked I was by what she said and then said it doesn't have to be a reason to leave him but I have to learn to stand up for myself and not tolerate this behaviour.
I never thought of him as abusive of manipulating so I am still extremely confused by all of this. Also I am easily influenced at the moment (by him, by my therapist and by what people say on here) which doesn't help with the "listening to myself, making my own decisions" part I'm working on. It's very very confusing and I can see how it could be that I'm totally wrong about this but at the moment I'm mostly happy with him so I decide to trust him. Why would I end something I still believe in when it's still more good than bad for me (how I see it now) and make both of us unhappy? Just because part of his behaviour isn't okay but he's willing to work on that.
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Well, the "part of his behavior" that "isn't ok" isn't that he's a slob or interrupts others or leaves the dishes for you to wash--it's actually harmful to you. I think it makes perfect sense to leave someone who treats you disrespectfully, even if it isn't constant. It wears on a person. I can see that you are blaming yourself for his behavior--that's a clear sign that it's having an adverse effect on you.
Nobody here is going to tell you his abusive behavior is OK. It remains to be seen whether he stops it now that you are sure he's "heard" you.
I hope you read that book I mentioned. I have a feeling you haven't seen the last of the controlling behavior.
Nobody here is going to tell you his abusive behavior is OK. It remains to be seen whether he stops it now that you are sure he's "heard" you.
I hope you read that book I mentioned. I have a feeling you haven't seen the last of the controlling behavior.
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Kev.....I, especially, note what you have shared about "listening to yourself and making your own decisions".....
When you have been living with someone who is abusive or mean to you...it is not uncommon to lose confidence in yourelf...to doubt yourself....to trust your own thoughts.....sometimes, it is even hard to think at all!
This can come on so slowly, so insidiously, that you may not notice it is happening....it becomes your "normal" experience.....
I hope that you will read the material that Lexie has recommended....
Knowledge is power.....
When you have been living with someone who is abusive or mean to you...it is not uncommon to lose confidence in yourelf...to doubt yourself....to trust your own thoughts.....sometimes, it is even hard to think at all!
This can come on so slowly, so insidiously, that you may not notice it is happening....it becomes your "normal" experience.....
I hope that you will read the material that Lexie has recommended....
Knowledge is power.....
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But I think I wouldn't get to the point in life where I'm completely happy without having a family of my own and being in a relationship.
and therein lies the rub.
if we cannot even imagine being happy and ok alone, how will we ever have enough to be happy with someone else?
it seems counter intuitive.....but it is vital.
and therein lies the rub.
if we cannot even imagine being happy and ok alone, how will we ever have enough to be happy with someone else?
it seems counter intuitive.....but it is vital.
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Originally Posted by kevlarsjal
Yes Lexie I won't tell him. Actually my first thought was "what if he finds out?" Which probably isn't a good sign that I think that way.
I won't tell him about anything you guys suggested in here either. I will tell him some of the things that my therapist said, how she thinks we could both handle these situations better. I won't use the word abuse though.
And thanks Amy!!!!!!
I won't tell him about anything you guys suggested in here either. I will tell him some of the things that my therapist said, how she thinks we could both handle these situations better. I won't use the word abuse though.
And thanks Amy!!!!!!
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I'm glad you do not live with him. My husband and I moved in together too fast, due to various circumstances. We've been married 30 years now, and what you are describing is very familiar to me. I cry sometimes too, but it's usually just because I'm frustrated, hurt, or angry at his lack of respect for me. I'm not afraid, I just want/need some peace in my life, and less drama. Just writing that makes me feel anxious, thinking of how he is! We both suffer from anxiety, and have had anger issues. I feel like I've learned how to control my anger a lot over the years, whereas he has made little, if any, effort. At first, it seemed like he only took his anger out on me, but now I see it with co-workers and family, too.
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