Struggling with the "disease concept" of alcoholism

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Old 04-06-2017, 04:38 AM
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Am in the no longer care camp. I used to spend hour upon hour looking up why my exah was as he is. Was it a disease? His personality? Did he drink cos he was under stress, unhappy, happy, depressed, not sleeping, to pee me off? etc but now I am not interested. It's up to him to work that out or not. It was up to me to work out why I was attracted to and stayed with him It's very freeing
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Old 04-06-2017, 05:46 AM
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Yes, Ladybird, I agree, it doesn't really matter what you call it, disease, dis-ease whilst living life without alcohol, hereditary, social conditioning, self-medication for underlying conditions etc.

The bottom line is, always - so what is the alcohol addicted person going to do about it? Once they started using alcohol as a 'solution' they began 'using' it to fix a problem (stress, anxiety, boredom) or even to heighten happiness at first, as a 'reward' until it didn't reward at all.

There is an MD, who started out 'treating' airline pilots and doctors for alcoholism at his treatment centres, he was a former alcohol addict. He used to call it a disease (it attracts insurance funding for expensive treatment) but now, credit to him, whilst he does still still use the word disease (funding is important) he calls it a disease of volition/choice. When I looked into the neuroscience, this made sense, in that, the addict (me) still possesses the ability to choose whether to drink or not, every single minute of every day.

When my husband threatened to leave me, something clicked within me and I came to my senses, my right mind, trouncing the automatic, learnt behaviour habitual, addicted lower part of my brain. My higher functioning brain was able to step in and when the lower, addicted part of my brain craved alcohol, I said no. This was something I learnt. It's called Rational Recovery, Addicted Voice Recognition Technique. It's basically what people have been applying to stop drinking for thousands of years, before the emergence of the 'treatment' industry last century.

I guess if it required a name, I'd prefer 'Volition Disorder', rather than the current 'Alcohol Use Disorder' or 'Disease of Volition''. Disease (coined by AA), per se, has been pretty much been displaced by the progress of science during the latter part of last century and this century.

The cure? Stop drinking, it's that simple. Then, in time, the brain neural-circuits will reroute and the new default position on non-drinker, becomes easier and eventually, effortless.
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Old 04-06-2017, 05:56 AM
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Tatsy, I'm really glad you found relief for your alcohol issue (to avoid labeling it). But respectfully, your experience isn't the same as everyone else's. Just saying "no" or recognizing "the voice" doesn't work for everyone, just as the AA approach didn't work for you. I'm not denying the reality of YOUR experience, just pointing out that others have had different ones.
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:21 AM
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LexieCat, I completely agree with you. The only reason I'm posting here, is to provide an alternative, for the relatives of addicted people who haven't found a solution that works for them, yet.

I fully understand AAs design for living and the concepts and the rationale behind them. But I didn't possess the character flaws (none more than the usual non-addict population) I'd always meditated and hadn't stepped on many toes or tried to be the controller of those around me. I still use some tenets of AA to improve my life, they're pretty much better explained versions of the religion I was raised with.

I fully understand and agree, that for some people, those that the Big Book describe, AA is an absolute life-saver and a life-transformer. But it wasn't for me and I was sinking, fast. Yet, I wasn't told that it wasn't a good fit and likely wouldn't work for me, just keep coming back. So I wasted some years.

Last year, my husband was on the verge of leaving me. He'd threatened before, but this time he meant it. He said he loved me deeply still, but didn't want to be with me in the future, only to watch me lying in bed, turning yellow and dying of alcohol addiction.

That was a wake-up call for me, I joined SR. My earlier posts downplay my position, I checked, rechecked, spellchecked my posts, wouldn't admit how bad I was, how much I'd lost and still don't. I decided I don't want to lose my life to alcoholism, nor my husband; so I set about and found a way that I could stop drinking and achieved both ideals.

I'm sorry if I've offended you LexieCat, I do know that AA can work for many, but not everyone; for the others, there are other paths - that's why I post, not to criticise AA.
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
Yes, Ladybird, I agree, it doesn't really matter what you call it, disease, dis-ease whilst living life without alcohol, hereditary, social conditioning, self-medication for underlying conditions etc.

The bottom line is, always - so what is the alcohol addicted person going to do about it? Once they started using alcohol as a 'solution' they began 'using' it to fix a problem (stress, anxiety, boredom) or even to heighten happiness at first, as a 'reward' until it didn't reward at all.

There is an MD, who started out 'treating' airline pilots and doctors for alcoholism at his treatment centres, he was a former alcohol addict. He used to call it a disease (it attracts insurance funding for expensive treatment) but now, credit to him, whilst he does still still use the word disease (funding is important) he calls it a disease of volition/choice. When I looked into the neuroscience, this made sense, in that, the addict (me) still possesses the ability to choose whether to drink or not, every single minute of every day.

When my husband threatened to leave me, something clicked within me and I came to my senses, my right mind, trouncing the automatic, learnt behaviour habitual, addicted lower part of my brain. My higher functioning brain was able to step in and when the lower, addicted part of my brain craved alcohol, I said no. This was something I learnt. It's called Rational Recovery, Addicted Voice Recognition Technique. It's basically what people have been applying to stop drinking for thousands of years, before the emergence of the 'treatment' industry last century.

I guess if it required a name, I'd prefer 'Volition Disorder', rather than the current 'Alcohol Use Disorder' or 'Disease of Volition''. Disease (coined by AA), per se, has been pretty much been displaced by the progress of science during the latter part of last century and this century.

The cure? Stop drinking, it's that simple. Then, in time, the brain neural-circuits will reroute and the new default position on non-drinker, becomes easier and eventually, effortless.
I appreciate the posts by people who are in recovery and using methods like Addictive Voice Recognition (never heard of it until I saw it posted on the Newcomers forum here). I know as a family member Ive had feedback saying that because my husband resists using ideas set forth by AA that he isnt serious about recover, or even ready for recovery. And those ideas put me in a tailspin for a while. And those are needless feelings for me to suffer.

My husband stopped but did need professional support to do it. His addiction was with drugs and not alcohol, although he abused alcohol.
I dont know if the substance makes a difference? However now in therapy its not focused on addiction so much as underlying issues, feelings, and overall health. So when I read the concept of just quitting, it makes a lot of sense to me It also goes along with the disease concept as Ive learned it because all this means is pathways in the brain have been re-routed and chemicals are all out of whack. Once you quit, that disease stops, and in time the brain recovers. The future susceptibility it sounds like is handled by continued reinforcement that a decision was made to not use again, and one sticks to it.

And there is a personal plan one makes isnt there ? Im sure it doesnt preclude therapy or other medical support if people need it for various reasons?

I was tempted a while back to mention the name of this approach to my husband but since he is doing good with just his therapy. I got a little nervous, and didnt want to rock the boat.
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:59 AM
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Hi Aliciagr, thank you for your reply. I'm so pleased for you and your husband, that he's making progress. AVRT 100% endorses any medical, psychological or psychiatric treatment that an addicted person may require in order to deal with any conditions and issues, once the drug or alcohol is stopped. Alcohol and drug addiction may mask other conditions and they will arise once the drug is removed. There is no distinction between alcohol or drugs, I believe the brain reacts in similar fashions to both.

I'd expand upon the technique now, but as your husband is making steady progress and receiving professional guidance, I certainly wouldn't want to rock the boat. If this current positive position should alter, then please PM me and I could provide you with my experience and you could run it past your husband's professional advisors. But hopefully, you've turned a corner.

Yes, absolutely, the brain is resilient and almost self-correcting. As your husband continues to abstain from his drug, his neural circuits will re-route and the cravings will lessen and even if they do arise, he'll be in a strong position to resist. Hugs to you both, I think it's wonderful how this part of SR is filled with folks trying to help their loved ones.
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:08 AM
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This, me too!

My XAH is an alcoholic and definitely has some personality disorder in the Cluster B category. I stopped trying to figure him out. I just know his behaviors is/were, unacceptable. He knows that as well. I turned that focus on my children as I as regardless of the reason he is why he is, it's not going to change. However, my children deserve more, and it's up to me to provide that to them in any manner I can, which meant not being caught up in my XAH, but spending that time doing what I can to be a happy, healthy mom, exhibit that to my children, and get them in counseling so they can make better relationship choices than I did, and learn to deal with their father in a healthy way for themselves.


Originally Posted by Ladybird579 View Post
Am in the no longer care camp. I used to spend hour upon hour looking up why my exah was as he is. Was it a disease? His personality? Did he drink cos he was under stress, unhappy, happy, depressed, not sleeping, to pee me off? etc but now I am not interested. It's up to him to work that out or not. It was up to me to work out why I was attracted to and stayed with him It's very freeing
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:18 AM
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All very interesting perspectives. I don't think it's one size fits all. I struggle with the "disease" concept, too, because I feel so much choice and selfishness is involved with a person's decision-making. Here's a good article about studies done showing a person's (or rat's) environment can seem to be the root cause:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann..._6506936.html?
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
I'm sorry if I've offended you LexieCat, I do know that AA can work for many, but not everyone; for the others, there are other paths - that's why I post, not to criticise AA.
You didn't offend me in the least. The only reason I pointed that out is that your post came off a bit authoritative (and I've been guilty of the same thing, so I'm not throwing stones). Just wanted to point out that your experience isn't universal (just as mine isn't).

And I am absolutely sincere about my happiness for you. Sobriety is great, isn't it?
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:54 AM
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Thank you LexieCat. Yes, I've been told before that I come across as a bit strident, I'll have to rein myself in. Yes, sobriety is great indeed, I feel as though I've been reborn...probably why I come across as so evangelical. I hope it's OK if I still post in this sub-forum, I only wish to help?
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Old 04-06-2017, 08:37 AM
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Absolutely OK. You might want to go easy on posts giving advice on coping with the effects of living with someone else's drinking, unless you have personal experience to share along those lines. But the alcoholic's perspective is usually welcome, too, as long as the f/f perspective is kept at the forefront.
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Old 04-06-2017, 08:44 AM
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This is a very interesting and informative thread with some very thoughtful posts.

IMHO, alcohol addiction is a much layered and a more complex issue than is often acknowledged.

In my experience, from my first drink/drunk at 14 years old, which left me publicly puking and sick as a dog for 2 days, I couldn't wait to indulge again. I was regularly binge drinking by 16 years and sought recovery at 26 years. That lasted 6 years, relapsed for 20 plus years and now sober again for 2 plus years.

What I am trying to say is that from my first drink, my "off" switch did not work. So when normies talk about having their 1 or 2 drinks and are then content to walk away, I have never had that experience with alcohol. In fact, it was here on SR that I learned what normies experience when they drink.

My first drink opened up a bottomless pit that I teetered on, that I both hoped and feared falling into. It was a horror that I felt helpless to save myself from.

Yes, it has been my choice to stop drinking but it has been my experience that i first had to claw my way through overwhelming desire, denial, fear and terminal uniqueness.

I don't know what to call it, disease, mental disorder, affliction, but I do know that the only "cure" for me is complete abstinence.

I imagine this debate will go on in the world for a long time to come.



(I hope my post falls under the guidelines, Lexie , I just saw your post above mine)
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Old 04-06-2017, 08:49 AM
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One more thing

I am married to an active alcoholic who has no interest in stopping.

What I have learned on F&F has changed my whole way of viewing him and has allowed me to find peace living with him.

Bless you all
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Old 04-06-2017, 10:25 AM
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Yup, always great to try to understand both sides of the drinking relationship.

Back when I was in Al-Anon, before I qualified for AA, my favorite meeting was a Friday night group that wasn't "officially" either AA or Al-Anon (because the Traditions dictate that each group has one Primary Purpose). We alternated AA and Al-Anon speakers and readings from week to week. There were several couples, but a lot of folks like me who went on our own. It was a terrific group and very eye-opening for most of us.
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Old 04-06-2017, 11:24 AM
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Thanks again, everyone. These posts have helped me with my own dilemmas.

One thing that complicates it for me is that I have a sibling who has some cognitive deficits (possibly FASD from birth mom [sib is adopted], but no one knows for sure). These deficits aren't immediately visible - you have to know him for a while before it becomes clear that there's something not working . My sibling does lots of things which are obviously bad ideas with disastrous consequences.

I used to get angry with him a lot for being selfish and making bad choices until I finally figured out that he is literally not able to make better choices because his brain doesn't work the way most people's brains do. There's no point in getting upset with him because he has no control over his own deficits.

I was trying to apply this to ex as well - he can't make better choices or behave more sanely because he has a disease and he has no control over the deficits the disease creates, so being angry with him is pointless.

But it seems that it's not the same - he could maybe get his disease under control, whether through 12-Step or Smart Recovery or whatever might work for him, but he's prioritized the disease over everything else, including his own self-respect. So I can be angry because for the last however many years, nothing has been as important to him as drinking and denying (except possibly his child, but I'm not even entirely sure about that).

I hope that makes some sense!
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Old 04-06-2017, 11:33 AM
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"The cure? Stop drinking, it's that simple. Then, in time, the brain neural-circuits will reroute and the new default position on non-drinker, becomes easier and eventually, effortless. '

if it was that simple then people wouldn't be dieing every day from alcoholism. there wouldn't be all of the threads from people that drank again.
no,its not that simple.
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Old 04-06-2017, 12:18 PM
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While I respect many opinions on this, the issue is that there is treatment for alcoholism, but you have to admit you need it, and fight for it. The addict has to put in the work, no matter what your addiction may be. And most addicts simply will not admit that the #1 most important thing they HAVE to do is abstain.

My turning point was hearing my X admit he drank because he was...bored. There you have it. I has spent YEARS trying to figure it all out, why, why, why. Well, if boredom does it for ya, I'm out. And of course, I had to weigh out his reasons of doing things versus what it was doing to my and my children's lives, which was ruin us, mentally, and financially.

It's ok to love someone from afar because being with them is too toxic. No one can decide that for anyone else because everyone has a different circumstance. I however was not willing to stay by the side of someone who did not want to be well, and would not do the work to be well.
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Old 04-06-2017, 12:48 PM
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It's not so much that he's made a rational, deliberate decision to prioritize the drinking, but rather that for him, the drinking is normal, and for you to insist that he change it looks and feels unreasonable to him.

Here's a very loose analogy. Suppose he were to tell you that he's decided he can be with you only if you are a certain weight or have a certain hair color. He says, "It's important to me, and if I were important to you, you would change those things about yourself--it's not that hard, you join Weight Watchers and go to the salon. " Wouldn't you feel pretty darned outraged about that? And offended? That's how it probably feels to him. You're making a big deal out of nothing, nobody's perfect, and if you really loved HIM, you'd accept him the way he is.

Like I said, not a perfect analogy, but if you want to understand how it can feel to have someone insist that you change in fundamental ways, that gives you a bit of a sense of it.
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Old 04-06-2017, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tomsteve View Post
Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
The cure? Stop drinking, it's that simple. Then, in time, the brain neural-circuits will reroute and the new default position on non-drinker, becomes easier and eventually, effortless.
if it was that simple then people wouldn't be dieing every day from alcoholism. there wouldn't be all of the threads from people that drank again.
no,its not that simple.
I caught this for entirely different reasons than you, tomsteve, but I must add something, lest anyone gets the idea that AVRT is simply about 'swearing off', as they say. That is certainly a part of the package, but not all of it.

To illustrate, I'll remark on Tatsy's comment about abstinence becoming easier with time, through the lens of AVRT, which is not simply about saying no to 'the voice', as LexieCat suggested. The 'alcoholic voice' spoken of in some meetings is merely a small subset of the Addictive Voice of AVRT.

For example, what Tatsy describes regarding re-routing of neural circuits through brain plasticity is essentially the extinction curve of alcohol dependence, whereby 'cravings' lessen in their intensity and frequency with sustained abstinence from alcohol consumption. This does often occur.

However, the very idea that abstinence becomes easier is AV, because it suggests that abstinence will be difficult if the intensity and frequency of desire does not taper off. The notion of 'difficulty', of course, necessarily suggest that one could fail at abstinence, and drink some more.

In the logic of AVRT, the desire for the absence of the desire to drink, conceals a plan to drink in the presence of that desire. To Tatsy, or to anyone else using AVRT, I would ask the following questions to highlight the implicit AV: What if it never gets any easier to abstain? What then?

The disease of volition is essentially euphoric recall, and the minimization of negative consequences, which has been mentioned, and which AVRT absolutely takes into account. This phenomenon is explicitly identified as one of the prime functions of the Addictive Voice.

With AVRT, one abstains from the benefits of drinking, not just from the downsides. To do otherwise, would necessarily suggest the possibility of drinking some more if the downsides were ever mitigated, and AVRT would identify that idea as the Addictive Voice itself.

The machinery of AVRT is simple, but not at all simplistic. It is essentially a logic engine, which is patterned after the same ruthless logic of the very mentality that sustains addiction, only with the precise opposite cardinal rule (the Big Plan) at its epicenter. AVRT neutralizes the addiction by mirroring its single minded logic.
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Old 04-07-2017, 11:48 AM
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Then, in time, the brain neural-circuits will reroute and the new default position on non-drinker, becomes easier and eventually, effortless

while i agree that the neural pathways will begin to rebuild and reroute, i think i balk about at the "easy and effortless" part. case in point.....i'm a former crackhead among other things, but crack had the BIG zing to it. it's been either 8 or 9 years now, i can never keep it straight. but then again i just did a recalculation on my DOGS and it turns out they are 10 and 8. but i digress....

getting out of my perfectly normal little subaru in the parking garage at my perfectly nice job, there was a small plastic wad of something at my feet. like part of a small sandwich bag. and for about exactly ONE second my mind flashed with a "i wonder if someone dropped their dope??" thought, and for about a nanosecond after that, i had the urge to reach down and check.

now i don't want to smoke crack. i have no plans to EVER do so again in my life. and i work damn hard to make sure that doesn't even become a remote possibility. i don't let thoughts linger. if the occasional voice pops up on my head and tells me that a couple of lines were sure be nice, eh?, i shrug it off, i don't listen, i don't engage, i don't argue.

and yet.........there i was for about 1.000000000000000001 seconds utterly transfixed by a piece of garbage.

a normal, non-addict, never was an addict brain would not have thought that. only the mind of someone who once revered small parts of a baggie as a treasure would. for me, just for me, i remain exactly ONE bad decision away. i will never be completely impervious.
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