Resolved -My Understanding (at least in part)
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Resolved -My Understanding (at least in part)
I was unclear before, but I think I now understand the views and feelings of my Mother In Law. I think its the same line of thinking that many of you have been trying to share with me. I really didnt understand, but I think this is it:
Whatever my Mother in Law has been through with my husband over the years in terms of his addiction, and behaviors.. has brought HER to a place of acceptance. I think she is following the path of Alanon, which I didnt know enough about to understand previously. Its helped her reach her conclusions and make her decisions, and set her boundaries. Its what she needs to do for her own sanity.
She feels he is an addict/alcoholic. These facts are something that he hasnt come to accept yet. There is obvious evidence because he has had multiple episodes showing he cant control his use of substances. Here are just a few facts: He overdosed, risked being kicked out of college, had his car wrecked, stole from them, fought back physically, left rehab facilities, refused certain help and wanted it all his way, had to face the courts and still wanted it all his way. He had no attitude change, and no moment to signify rock bottom, instead of just another lull in his normal pattern. The things listed above didnt all happen at once, instead it was over a period of years. She (probably) thought many times that "this would be the thing that made the difference". Each time he got through it, and his life grew in positive ways like graduating college, a good career, a nice home, finding a wife.. these things gave her hope. But then he would find something that set him off again and he would turn to substances. To her, It all points to not surrendering to his addictions and admitting the real problem is that he can never use substances again, and he needs to work a program to reinforce this on a continuous basis. Im not sure if she knows now that he drinks occasionally. If she does it further shows he is not yet ready for recovery, and points to this being just another lull. She does know he was abusive when he was using this last time, and so Im sure her fears are escalated thinking he is progressing. She has seen him do therapy before for different lengths of time, but he still went back to substances and caused himself and those around him chaos. So she is probably skeptical this round of therapy will make the difference. And, now he has a child on the way and the stakes are higher, and she is worried for him, for me and for her grandchild. This is why she says she cant be involved because its too hard for her. It is like she knows the shoe will fall, and feels she must keep her distance.
I think I am also worrying her, because it must look to her as if I am in denial of whats really going on, She is probably wondering what my bottom is, and how many more cycles i will go through with him before I might take her grandchild and leave.
I think I understand now. Many of you have been trying to show me this, so I could understand what to expect, how to protect myself, and to be wary of what could be a lull in his addiction, and not real recovery.
My therapist helped me yesterday, and I had a lot of recollection of posts you've all made to me which also helped. I think many people have been through this, and its one of the reasons you share with others, so the patterns may be broken at least on the side of family and children.
I may not have it perfect, but I think its close enough now so I can better respect my MIL views and feelings.
And then I guess that just leaves my feelings, and my beliefs as I look at whats been laid out for me to examine.
Your collective input has been very helpful. Thank you.
Whatever my Mother in Law has been through with my husband over the years in terms of his addiction, and behaviors.. has brought HER to a place of acceptance. I think she is following the path of Alanon, which I didnt know enough about to understand previously. Its helped her reach her conclusions and make her decisions, and set her boundaries. Its what she needs to do for her own sanity.
She feels he is an addict/alcoholic. These facts are something that he hasnt come to accept yet. There is obvious evidence because he has had multiple episodes showing he cant control his use of substances. Here are just a few facts: He overdosed, risked being kicked out of college, had his car wrecked, stole from them, fought back physically, left rehab facilities, refused certain help and wanted it all his way, had to face the courts and still wanted it all his way. He had no attitude change, and no moment to signify rock bottom, instead of just another lull in his normal pattern. The things listed above didnt all happen at once, instead it was over a period of years. She (probably) thought many times that "this would be the thing that made the difference". Each time he got through it, and his life grew in positive ways like graduating college, a good career, a nice home, finding a wife.. these things gave her hope. But then he would find something that set him off again and he would turn to substances. To her, It all points to not surrendering to his addictions and admitting the real problem is that he can never use substances again, and he needs to work a program to reinforce this on a continuous basis. Im not sure if she knows now that he drinks occasionally. If she does it further shows he is not yet ready for recovery, and points to this being just another lull. She does know he was abusive when he was using this last time, and so Im sure her fears are escalated thinking he is progressing. She has seen him do therapy before for different lengths of time, but he still went back to substances and caused himself and those around him chaos. So she is probably skeptical this round of therapy will make the difference. And, now he has a child on the way and the stakes are higher, and she is worried for him, for me and for her grandchild. This is why she says she cant be involved because its too hard for her. It is like she knows the shoe will fall, and feels she must keep her distance.
I think I am also worrying her, because it must look to her as if I am in denial of whats really going on, She is probably wondering what my bottom is, and how many more cycles i will go through with him before I might take her grandchild and leave.
I think I understand now. Many of you have been trying to show me this, so I could understand what to expect, how to protect myself, and to be wary of what could be a lull in his addiction, and not real recovery.
My therapist helped me yesterday, and I had a lot of recollection of posts you've all made to me which also helped. I think many people have been through this, and its one of the reasons you share with others, so the patterns may be broken at least on the side of family and children.
I may not have it perfect, but I think its close enough now so I can better respect my MIL views and feelings.
And then I guess that just leaves my feelings, and my beliefs as I look at whats been laid out for me to examine.
Your collective input has been very helpful. Thank you.
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I think every one of us has had to come to our own conclusions after bitter, painful experience. No matter how many people tell us what to expect, until we've actually experienced it, we don't really, deep down, believe it. But once we DO see it, we can't UN-see it.
The best thing about your post, I think, is that you seem to be willing to acknowledge the possibility that this may not all play out as you so desperately hope. The key factor here isn't whether he's in a "program" or what KIND of program it is; it's whether he is desperate enough to avoid a repeat of history to do WHATEVER IT TAKES. And it kinda looks like he's still trying to keep his options open, in the belief that he can manage it, when history certainly suggests otherwise.
So you don't have to believe us about what's likely to happen, just believe in the POSSIBILITY that it may happen and make sure you do everything you can to protect yourself in the event things do go south.
The best thing about your post, I think, is that you seem to be willing to acknowledge the possibility that this may not all play out as you so desperately hope. The key factor here isn't whether he's in a "program" or what KIND of program it is; it's whether he is desperate enough to avoid a repeat of history to do WHATEVER IT TAKES. And it kinda looks like he's still trying to keep his options open, in the belief that he can manage it, when history certainly suggests otherwise.
So you don't have to believe us about what's likely to happen, just believe in the POSSIBILITY that it may happen and make sure you do everything you can to protect yourself in the event things do go south.
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I think you have hit the nail on the head. That sounds like a good understanding of how she likely feels.
I would say that you feelings may change once you have brought a child into the world. There is absolutely no love like the love for your own child, and nothing that brings out the momma bear than seeing your child get hurt. For myself, seeing my children be hurt, over and over, by their father, has brought me to a place of despair over and over and over.
I don't say any of this to hurt you, but to prepare you. As always, prepare for the worst, hope and pray for the best.
I would say that you feelings may change once you have brought a child into the world. There is absolutely no love like the love for your own child, and nothing that brings out the momma bear than seeing your child get hurt. For myself, seeing my children be hurt, over and over, by their father, has brought me to a place of despair over and over and over.
I don't say any of this to hurt you, but to prepare you. As always, prepare for the worst, hope and pray for the best.
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Thank you everyone.
I want to say a lot but I usually put foot in mouth when trying to ask questions, or share some of my feelings.
I will just ask one question:
I shared with my therapist that even though we have worked on the issue of low self esteem.. mine still has not rebounded. I used to feel so put together and confident. So much has happened this past year. Ive felt so many negative feelings about myself.. part was from the disrespectful behaviors I put up with in my own home. part was from the stigma I felt being associated with violence, addiction, sickness, the criminal side of the legal system (as the wife of a man who...). Part comes from hiding what happened, from negative feedback I get from his parents, even negative feedback here hurts me sometimes or I should say makes me feel "dumb". I didnt even know how to label what I was feeling at first, and my therapist helped me to understand its all in how I perceive myself and my own self worth.,
Is this something other family members have dealt with? Should I start a new thread ?
Ive discussed it with my husband, and we have had some very open and intense discussions. He is also still in pain at how low he went and the shameful and disgusting things he did. He said it leaves your sense of self respect and self esteem in the dirt.
I want to say a lot but I usually put foot in mouth when trying to ask questions, or share some of my feelings.
I will just ask one question:
I shared with my therapist that even though we have worked on the issue of low self esteem.. mine still has not rebounded. I used to feel so put together and confident. So much has happened this past year. Ive felt so many negative feelings about myself.. part was from the disrespectful behaviors I put up with in my own home. part was from the stigma I felt being associated with violence, addiction, sickness, the criminal side of the legal system (as the wife of a man who...). Part comes from hiding what happened, from negative feedback I get from his parents, even negative feedback here hurts me sometimes or I should say makes me feel "dumb". I didnt even know how to label what I was feeling at first, and my therapist helped me to understand its all in how I perceive myself and my own self worth.,
Is this something other family members have dealt with? Should I start a new thread ?
Ive discussed it with my husband, and we have had some very open and intense discussions. He is also still in pain at how low he went and the shameful and disgusting things he did. He said it leaves your sense of self respect and self esteem in the dirt.
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Alicia.....we can't just decide to have self esteem....and, bam! just get it....
We gain self esteem (the positive kind) from esteemable experiences.
I din't say that...lol...Dr. Nathaniel Brandon did...
He is the one who has written the most on this subject...in language for the laymen. He is very esteemed in the fields of psychology and psychiatry, over the years.
If interested, you can go to amazon.com and find his books as well as some workbooks on the subject...
I think, also that some of the feelings that you have experienced are common to someone who has had an experience of abuse.....
You have done nothing to be ashamed of....
We are not our circumstances.....we are more than that...
We gain self esteem (the positive kind) from esteemable experiences.
I din't say that...lol...Dr. Nathaniel Brandon did...
He is the one who has written the most on this subject...in language for the laymen. He is very esteemed in the fields of psychology and psychiatry, over the years.
If interested, you can go to amazon.com and find his books as well as some workbooks on the subject...
I think, also that some of the feelings that you have experienced are common to someone who has had an experience of abuse.....
You have done nothing to be ashamed of....
We are not our circumstances.....we are more than that...
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Originally Posted by LexieCat 
I think every one of us has had to come to our own conclusions after bitter, painful experience. No matter how many people tell us what to expect, until we've actually experienced it, we don't really, deep down, believe it. But once we DO see it, we can't UN-see it.
The best thing about your post, I think, is that you seem to be willing to acknowledge the possibility that this may not all play out as you so desperately hope. The key factor here isn't whether he's in a "program" or what KIND of program it is; it's whether he is desperate enough to avoid a repeat of history to do WHATEVER IT TAKES. And it kinda looks like he's still trying to keep his options open, in the belief that he can manage it, when history certainly suggests otherwise.
So you don't have to believe us about what's likely to happen, just believe in the POSSIBILITY that it may happen and make sure you do everything you can to protect yourself in the event things do go south.
The best thing about your post, I think, is that you seem to be willing to acknowledge the possibility that this may not all play out as you so desperately hope. The key factor here isn't whether he's in a "program" or what KIND of program it is; it's whether he is desperate enough to avoid a repeat of history to do WHATEVER IT TAKES. And it kinda looks like he's still trying to keep his options open, in the belief that he can manage it, when history certainly suggests otherwise.
So you don't have to believe us about what's likely to happen, just believe in the POSSIBILITY that it may happen and make sure you do everything you can to protect yourself in the event things do go south.
Im sure his mom worries about it also. But the two of us have very different strategies for coping with our emotions, and I also think we have different ideas on what helps to prevent relapse, and what it signals.
What you wrote above sounds a lot like his moms words. When visiting recently she couldnt control her emotions and said something to the effect of " you need to accept who you are, and stop trying to fix yourself" in the past she has said "he needs to surrender and accept the treatment the rehab is offering him". Its similar to the words "desperate" and "willing to do anything".
This was another reason I had thought it would be helpful if his mom could participate in a Family Therapy session, or even be included in a session with husbands addiction doctor. Because then we might come to some mutual understanding that "desperate" really means "taking this very seriously and having desire to make changes" and "willing to do anything" might be better stated as " willing to put together a treatment plan, and being open to adjusting that plan if it doesnt appear to be working successfully".
But, the therapist felt it might be too soon to do a family session with his parents.
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Alicia.....here is a website that you might find useful to read. It is somewhat related to your interest in self esteem.
It concerns the process of individuation....seeing ones self as distinct and separate entity from other individuals....
I think that we co-dependents can find ourselves living through another, rather that living with or along side of others. It is like we can feel what they feel, see what they see, think what they think...and, can, sometimes feel uncomfortable when we find any way that we are not in absolute synchronicity with them...
http://www.goodtherapy.org/learn-***.../individuation
It concerns the process of individuation....seeing ones self as distinct and separate entity from other individuals....
I think that we co-dependents can find ourselves living through another, rather that living with or along side of others. It is like we can feel what they feel, see what they see, think what they think...and, can, sometimes feel uncomfortable when we find any way that we are not in absolute synchronicity with them...
http://www.goodtherapy.org/learn-***.../individuation
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Originally Posted by dandylion
Alicia.....we can't just decide to have self esteem....and, bam! just get it....
We gain self esteem (the positive kind) from esteemable experiences.
I din't say that...lol...Dr. Nathaniel Brandon did......
We gain self esteem (the positive kind) from esteemable experiences.
I din't say that...lol...Dr. Nathaniel Brandon did......
alicia, I get the sense from your posts that you sort of approach healing with a checklist - if I do this, then that should happen..... as well as an expectation that healing happens inside the therapist's offices & meeting rooms. (I could be way off base, not saying I'm right)
For me, it's the opposite. Those are the places that we gain knowledge & support about how to slay the dragons that we face in everyday life - and THAT is where recovery happens.
We are not our circumstances.....we are more than that...
I'm happy you are making headway alicia. If I remember correctly he's capable of long stretches of management which makes his patterns difficult & unpredictable. It's also easy to get lulled into complacency in our OWN recoveries in the absence of an active crisis, please stay vigilant.
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I think this is very articulate of you, and I think you are coming a long ways in therapy and self examination to even be able to recognize your own feelings. That's a really great thing.
I think once you see yourself as separate of his behavior you will be able to build your self esteem back, and that your therapist should be able to help you with that. It won't come overnight, but it will come.
I do think it would be helpful for his mom to be part of the therapy process, by her own choice. Hopefully she will see the value in that at some point.
Hugs to you!
I think once you see yourself as separate of his behavior you will be able to build your self esteem back, and that your therapist should be able to help you with that. It won't come overnight, but it will come.
I do think it would be helpful for his mom to be part of the therapy process, by her own choice. Hopefully she will see the value in that at some point.
Hugs to you!
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Originally Posted by dandylion
Alicia.....here is a website that you might find useful to read. It is somewhat related to your interest in self esteem.
It concerns the process of individuation....seeing ones self as distinct and separate entity from other individuals....
I think that we co-dependents can find ourselves living through another, rather that living with or along side of others. It is like we can feel what they feel, see what they see, think what they think...and, can, sometimes feel uncomfortable when we find any way that we are not in absolute synchronicity with them...
Individuation in Therapy
It concerns the process of individuation....seeing ones self as distinct and separate entity from other individuals....
I think that we co-dependents can find ourselves living through another, rather that living with or along side of others. It is like we can feel what they feel, see what they see, think what they think...and, can, sometimes feel uncomfortable when we find any way that we are not in absolute synchronicity with them...
Individuation in Therapy
I shouldnt blame how Im feeling all on what I experienced with his addiction issues. It doesnt help that my life changed drastically since we moved and things that made me feel good about myself have sort of evaporated. One of the biggest things I think is not working, not being in school. All my life I was either in school or working. Things that belonged to me, and also good ways to get direct feedback and help me monitor my feelings of self.
But the therapist reminded me that I need to look at all of this as a growth experience. Without those types of external sources to provide me with rewards and positive feedback.. I need to look deeper and get to know myself, and provide my own. I guess Ive never really had to do that before.
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Thank you Firesprite and Hopeful.
I am trying very hard.
Your right. Therapy is like being in school sort of. You take what you learn, but then you have to go and apply it in the real world. That is the true test. And what Im finding often is that you have to also grade yourself! Its good I was not a teacher, because I can be a very harsh in marking those grades.
I am trying very hard.
Your right. Therapy is like being in school sort of. You take what you learn, but then you have to go and apply it in the real world. That is the true test. And what Im finding often is that you have to also grade yourself! Its good I was not a teacher, because I can be a very harsh in marking those grades.
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My Mother in Law rarely calls, but yesterday she rang and I just stopped for a second and said to myself, nope dont feel like getting into potential drama. I let it go to voicemail and she hung up.
Today she calls and leaves a message. She was out shopping and had an extra 20% off coupon and she bought us a new coffeepot. When they were over a couple weeks ago, I offered them coffee but apologized becaue it wasnt heating really well for some reason. She bought us one exactly the same.
I called her back and offered to come and pick it up.. but Id woke up today feeling dizzy, with a sore throat and a whistle in my ear. Wierd.
She offered to bring it by. She was much calmer today and offered to drive me to the doctors. I think its just a cold so I declined. She also bought us a irobot floor cleaner because she has one and thought I would like it.
She stayed for about 30 minutes, and we had tea and talked. Walking on egg shells with anything I said of course. I feel like she was trying to make an effort. I mean she knew I would be home alone and could have waited until the weekend when her son was here. But she chose not to, which was probably better all things considered. I thanked her, and hugged her before she left.
Maybe we have more in common than I think. Maybe she also wants to find some middle ground where our two families can have some normal interactions. Fingers crossed this is a positive sign.
Today she calls and leaves a message. She was out shopping and had an extra 20% off coupon and she bought us a new coffeepot. When they were over a couple weeks ago, I offered them coffee but apologized becaue it wasnt heating really well for some reason. She bought us one exactly the same.
I called her back and offered to come and pick it up.. but Id woke up today feeling dizzy, with a sore throat and a whistle in my ear. Wierd.
She offered to bring it by. She was much calmer today and offered to drive me to the doctors. I think its just a cold so I declined. She also bought us a irobot floor cleaner because she has one and thought I would like it.
She stayed for about 30 minutes, and we had tea and talked. Walking on egg shells with anything I said of course. I feel like she was trying to make an effort. I mean she knew I would be home alone and could have waited until the weekend when her son was here. But she chose not to, which was probably better all things considered. I thanked her, and hugged her before she left.
Maybe we have more in common than I think. Maybe she also wants to find some middle ground where our two families can have some normal interactions. Fingers crossed this is a positive sign.
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Sounds pretty nice of her. Try to lose the "walking on eggshells" thing, though. It's exhausting. If you work on healthy boundaries, you will find less need to do that.
Hope you feel better! I just talked to one of my bosses, who is approaching the end of her first trimester, and in addition to morning sickness, she has been hit with a cold and other minor bugs.
Hope you feel better! I just talked to one of my bosses, who is approaching the end of her first trimester, and in addition to morning sickness, she has been hit with a cold and other minor bugs.
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Originally Posted by LexieCat
Sounds pretty nice of her. Try to lose the "walking on eggshells" thing, though. It's exhausting. If you work on healthy boundaries, you will find less need to do that.
Hope you feel better! I just talked to one of my bosses, who is approaching the end of her first trimester, and in addition to morning sickness, she has been hit with a cold and other minor bugs.
Hope you feel better! I just talked to one of my bosses, who is approaching the end of her first trimester, and in addition to morning sickness, she has been hit with a cold and other minor bugs.
I guess since I cant predict what might set her off again, the best thing to do is try not to worry about it. The only boundary I can think of is to reinforce that if we cant talk about (any topic) calmly, then we wont be discussing it, and she should probably go home at that point before any escalation could occur.
Any other thoughts on how to set boundaries with her would be appreciated.
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My basic advice would be to just be yourself and accept her at face value....without evaluating every move and overthinking it.....
I think it was a generous and sincere effort to reach out to you. At least that would be the most positive way to look at it.
From where I sit....the emotional episode that she had, previously, was a natural and human reaction for a mother to have, under the circumstances.
I am looking at it as a mother, myself, and with the realization that none of us are perfect......
I don't think she should have to live out a life sentence for it.....
There is much in life where the best thing is to just forgive and move on....
At least, this is my view....
I think it was a generous and sincere effort to reach out to you. At least that would be the most positive way to look at it.
From where I sit....the emotional episode that she had, previously, was a natural and human reaction for a mother to have, under the circumstances.
I am looking at it as a mother, myself, and with the realization that none of us are perfect......
I don't think she should have to live out a life sentence for it.....
There is much in life where the best thing is to just forgive and move on....
At least, this is my view....
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Yeah, I don't think the goal should be to avoid any unpleasantness at all costs--there needs to be some tolerance for people to be human beings.
If she simply makes a comment or an observation or a suggestion or expresses a concern, you don't have to push her out the door or hang up on her. You can politely acknowledge her concern (and maybe hear her out--she might have something to say you need to hear), and if it's really getting under your skin, politely tell her you're not in a position to go into it right now, and would rather discuss something else. If she PERSISTS beyond that and disregards your wishes, THEN you can (again, politely) say that you'll talk to her when she's ready to respect your wishes. And end the conversation.
It takes practice. And that doesn't have to be precisely how you handle it, but if you hope to maintain good relations with her going forward, something along those lines will go a long way toward not burning bridges.
If she simply makes a comment or an observation or a suggestion or expresses a concern, you don't have to push her out the door or hang up on her. You can politely acknowledge her concern (and maybe hear her out--she might have something to say you need to hear), and if it's really getting under your skin, politely tell her you're not in a position to go into it right now, and would rather discuss something else. If she PERSISTS beyond that and disregards your wishes, THEN you can (again, politely) say that you'll talk to her when she's ready to respect your wishes. And end the conversation.
It takes practice. And that doesn't have to be precisely how you handle it, but if you hope to maintain good relations with her going forward, something along those lines will go a long way toward not burning bridges.
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I agree with both of you. People can be emotional at times due to circumstances and its often best to look the other way.
And we do have to have some level of tolerance and the ability to cope with difficult people in order to function successfully in the world.
This isnt a one off with her though. I have seen for myself a pattern of uncontrolled emotions, drama, and outbursts where all the attention gets focused on her feelings, and her concerns.
My husband says she has always been like this, and goes even further to say he thinks growing up with that behavior affected him in various ways. (he's been looking at stuff like this in his therapy sessions, and trying to work on his own behavioral issues).
All this makes me feel like I walk a fine line between seeing her as a loving mom who has real concerns and fears, to someone who cant cope with her own emotions, and maybe even needs the drama to soother herself or something. Im not sure exactly what Im dealing with.
I want to have a good relationship with his parents, so Im willing to work on it, and do my best at trial and error / setting boundaries.
I was very pleased with how today went. My hug and thanks were sincere.
And we do have to have some level of tolerance and the ability to cope with difficult people in order to function successfully in the world.
This isnt a one off with her though. I have seen for myself a pattern of uncontrolled emotions, drama, and outbursts where all the attention gets focused on her feelings, and her concerns.
My husband says she has always been like this, and goes even further to say he thinks growing up with that behavior affected him in various ways. (he's been looking at stuff like this in his therapy sessions, and trying to work on his own behavioral issues).
All this makes me feel like I walk a fine line between seeing her as a loving mom who has real concerns and fears, to someone who cant cope with her own emotions, and maybe even needs the drama to soother herself or something. Im not sure exactly what Im dealing with.
I want to have a good relationship with his parents, so Im willing to work on it, and do my best at trial and error / setting boundaries.
I was very pleased with how today went. My hug and thanks were sincere.
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