Need your opinions please!!

Old 03-05-2017, 06:21 AM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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what I saw with his drinking before the coke ever started last year

what did you see regarding his drinking BEFORE the coke? an uptick? MORE drinking? can you connect the dots and see that the drinking is where it starts? i hope so.

also have you studied the Cycle of Abuse?

1: Tension building
Stress builds from the pressures of daily life, like conflict over children, marital issues, misunderstandings, or other family conflicts. It also builds as the result of illness, legal or financial problems, unemployment, or catastrophic events, like floods, rape or war.During this period, the abuser feels ignored, threatened, annoyed or wronged. The feeling lasts on average several minutes to hours, it may last as much as several months.

To prevent violence, the victim may try to reduce the tension by becoming compliant and nurturing. Or, to get the abuse over with, prepare for the violence or lessen the degree of injury, the victim may provoke the batterer. "However, at no time is the batterer justified in engaging in violent or abusive behavior," said Scott Allen Johnson, author of Physical Abusers and Sexual Offenders.

2: Acute violence
Characterized by outbursts of violent, abusive incidents which may be preceded by verbal abuse and include psychological abuse.[ During this stage the abuser attempts to dominate his/her partner (survivor) with the use of domestic violence.

In intimate partner violence, children are negatively affected by having witnessed the violence and the partner's relationship degrades as well. The release of energy reduces the tension, and the abuser may feel or express that the victim "had it coming" to them.

3: Reconciliation/honeymoon
The perpetrator may begin to feel remorse, guilty feelings, or fear that their partner will leave or call the police. The victim feels pain, fear, humiliation, disrespect, confusion, and may mistakenly feel responsible.

Characterized by affection, apology, or, alternatively, ignoring the incident, this phase marks an apparent end of violence, with assurances that it will never happen again, or that the abuser will do his or her best to change. During this stage the abuser may feel or claim to feel overwhelming remorse and sadness. Some abusers walk away from the situation with little comment, but most will eventually shower the survivor with love and affection. The abuser may use self-harm or threats of suicide to gain sympathy and/or prevent the survivor from leaving the relationship. Abusers are frequently so convincing, and survivors so eager for the relationship to improve, that survivors (who are often worn down and confused by longstanding abuse) stay in the relationship.

4: Calm
During this phase (which is often considered an element of the honeymoon/reconciliation phase), the relationship is relatively calm and peaceable. [U]During this period the abuser may agree to engage in counseling, ask for forgiveness, and create a normal atmosphere. In intimate partner relationships, the perpetrator may buy presents or the couple may engage in passionate sex. Over time, the batterer's apologies and requests for forgiveness become less sincere and are generally stated to prevent separation or intervention.

However, interpersonal difficulties will inevitably arise, leading again to the tension building phase. The effect of the continual cycle may include loss of love, contempt, distress, and/or physical disability. Intimate partners may separate, divorce or, at the extreme, someone may be killed.
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Old 03-05-2017, 06:40 AM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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First, you're dealing with some really heavy stuff here Alicia. I'm glad that you're still coming back. The invitation still stands to use my name as target practice. ;-)

I dont want to get into this type of discussion, because all that really matters is what he thinks, what his behaviors are, and how it affects me, how I feel about it all.
I want to point out in this sentence, you put yourself last. Just think about it.

I dont want to defend his drinking or say I totally approve of how he handles it, but his emotional issues are more pressing to me than anything else right now. I am happy he is continuing to get help because if he doesnt I do feel his risk is greater for relapse on drugs and abuse of alcohol too.
In regards to the avoiding alcohol altogether, to me this makes a whole bunch of sense.

If your husband had an affair, it would be well within your rights to expect him to establish a No Contact policy with her. But it's not just "with her". Your spidey senses would be up if he started hanging out in places associated with the other woman. If he deliberately listened to "their song" after the affair was over, you would be asking yourself why he was exposing himself to that trigger.

Granted, some people are really that obtuse and they don't realize what they're doing, so what really matters is when they're confronted with their behavior. So if you confronted hypothetical husband about hanging out in the places and listening to the music associated with the affair, what matters most is his reaction. If he's truly sorry, he'll admit he was being a dolt and he won't do that again. If dismisses your feelings, if he says "Why can't I go where I want and listen to music? It's just a place. It's just a song" that is a huge warning sign, because it means that he's not doing everything in his power to make you feel safe after he's already violated your trust. He is not making your feelings a priority.

So... back to your husband. Even if the coke was the driver for his previous behavior, why would he want to associate with the alcohol that is linked to that coke?

If you said to him, "I feel very uncomfortable about the fact that you still drink because it's tied with your coke habit", how would he react? Would he dismiss you, or would he say "I'll do everything in my power to make you and our baby feel safe again" and actually follow through? Or are you concerned of what would happen if you confronted him?

Just things to think about.
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Old 03-05-2017, 09:51 AM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII View Post
what I saw with his drinking before the coke ever started last year

what did you see regarding his drinking BEFORE the coke? an uptick? MORE drinking? can you connect the dots and see that the drinking is where it starts? i hope so.

also have you studied the Cycle of Abuse?

1: Tension building
Stress builds from the pressures of daily life, like conflict over children, marital issues, misunderstandings, or other family conflicts. It also builds as the result of illness, legal or financial problems, unemployment, or catastrophic events, like floods, rape or war.During this period, the abuser feels ignored, threatened, annoyed or wronged. The feeling lasts on average several minutes to hours, it may last as much as several months.

To prevent violence, the victim may try to reduce the tension by becoming compliant and nurturing. Or, to get the abuse over with, prepare for the violence or lessen the degree of injury, the victim may provoke the batterer. "However, at no time is the batterer justified in engaging in violent or abusive behavior," said Scott Allen Johnson, author of Physical Abusers and Sexual Offenders.

2: Acute violence
Characterized by outbursts of violent, abusive incidents which may be preceded by verbal abuse and include psychological abuse.[ During this stage the abuser attempts to dominate his/her partner (survivor) with the use of domestic violence.

In intimate partner violence, children are negatively affected by having witnessed the violence and the partner's relationship degrades as well. The release of energy reduces the tension, and the abuser may feel or express that the victim "had it coming" to them.

3: Reconciliation/honeymoon
The perpetrator may begin to feel remorse, guilty feelings, or fear that their partner will leave or call the police. The victim feels pain, fear, humiliation, disrespect, confusion, and may mistakenly feel responsible.

Characterized by affection, apology, or, alternatively, ignoring the incident, this phase marks an apparent end of violence, with assurances that it will never happen again, or that the abuser will do his or her best to change. During this stage the abuser may feel or claim to feel overwhelming remorse and sadness. Some abusers walk away from the situation with little comment, but most will eventually shower the survivor with love and affection. The abuser may use self-harm or threats of suicide to gain sympathy and/or prevent the survivor from leaving the relationship. Abusers are frequently so convincing, and survivors so eager for the relationship to improve, that survivors (who are often worn down and confused by longstanding abuse) stay in the relationship.

4: Calm
During this phase (which is often considered an element of the honeymoon/reconciliation phase), the relationship is relatively calm and peaceable. [U]During this period the abuser may agree to engage in counseling, ask for forgiveness, and create a normal atmosphere. In intimate partner relationships, the perpetrator may buy presents or the couple may engage in passionate sex. Over time, the batterer's apologies and requests for forgiveness become less sincere and are generally stated to prevent separation or intervention.

However, interpersonal difficulties will inevitably arise, leading again to the tension building phase. The effect of the continual cycle may include loss of love, contempt, distress, and/or physical disability. Intimate partners may separate, divorce or, at the extreme, someone may be killed.
wow thats hard to read. I see what you are saying.
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Old 03-05-2017, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by PuzzledHeart View Post
First, you're dealing with some really heavy stuff here Alicia. I'm glad that you're still coming back. The invitation still stands to use my name as target practice. ;-)



I want to point out in this sentence, you put yourself last. Just think about it.



In regards to the avoiding alcohol altogether, to me this makes a whole bunch of sense.

If your husband had an affair, it would be well within your rights to expect him to establish a No Contact policy with her. But it's not just "with her". Your spidey senses would be up if he started hanging out in places associated with the other woman. If he deliberately listened to "their song" after the affair was over, you would be asking yourself why he was exposing himself to that trigger.

Granted, some people are really that obtuse and they don't realize what they're doing, so what really matters is when they're confronted with their behavior. So if you confronted hypothetical husband about hanging out in the places and listening to the music associated with the affair, what matters most is his reaction. If he's truly sorry, he'll admit he was being a dolt and he won't do that again. If dismisses your feelings, if he says "Why can't I go where I want and listen to music? It's just a place. It's just a song" that is a huge warning sign, because it means that he's not doing everything in his power to make you feel safe after he's already violated your trust. He is not making your feelings a priority.

So... back to your husband. Even if the coke was the driver for his previous behavior, why would he want to associate with the alcohol that is linked to that coke?

If you said to him, "I feel very uncomfortable about the fact that you still drink because it's tied with your coke habit", how would he react? Would he dismiss you, or would he say "I'll do everything in my power to make you and our baby feel safe again" and actually follow through? Or are you concerned of what would happen if you confronted him?

Just things to think about.
I havent thought it was my place to make that kind of decision for him is the main reason. Isnt that kind of controlling behavior? Its one thing to say I wont be around you if you are drinking and then I would have to walk out of dinner if he ordered a drink to hold my ground. If I told him in advance of my boundary then I dont know if he would not drink or not. I think he would probably not order drinks anymore when we go out. It just feels wrong to put that on him because its not causing issues. If I see escalation or something then I think a boundary would be needed, see how he responded?
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Old 03-05-2017, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by aliciagr View Post
I havent thought it was my place to make that kind of decision for him is the main reason. Isnt that kind of controlling behavior? Its one thing to say I wont be around you if you are drinking and then I would have to walk out of dinner if he ordered a drink to hold my ground. If I told him in advance of my boundary then I dont know if he would not drink or not. I think he would probably not order drinks anymore when we go out. It just feels wrong to put that on him because its not causing issues. If I see escalation or something then I think a boundary would be needed, see how he responded?
I don't think PuzzledHeart was advising you to say that, but to consider what you think his reaction would be if you did. But I'm not going to speak for PH, she does a great job of that herself!

But as far as boundaries go, they aren't about him, they are about you. If you don't want to be around him when he's drinking, then yes, you would walk out of dinner. You don't have to explain why. You don't have to tell people in advance of what your boundaries are. You just have to know what they are, and then uphold them when they are violated.
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Old 03-05-2017, 10:27 AM
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Yes--what we are saying is that it's OK--healthy and good--to remove yourself from a potentially dangerous situation (and it doesn't have to be physical danger) BEFORE the dangerous event commences. When he drinks, he's playing with fire. It's smart to get out of the way before the conflagration occurs. And the fact that, on a particular occasion, no conflagration ensued, that doesn't mean what he did was safe. It means you were lucky.

Warning labels on electronics or other potentially hazardous things aren't put there because you will definitely be electrocuted or lose a limb if you don't follow instructions. They are there because they present an unacceptable RISK of something bad happening.
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Old 03-05-2017, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by SparkleKitty View Post
I don't think PuzzledHeart was advising you to say that, but to consider what you think his reaction would be if you did. But I'm not going to speak for PH, she does a great job of that herself!

But as far as boundaries go, they aren't about him, they are about you. If you don't want to be around him when he's drinking, then yes, you would walk out of dinner. You don't have to explain why. You don't have to tell people in advance of what your boundaries are. You just have to know what they are, and then uphold them when they are violated.
You know when I was going to alanon I heard boundaries explained that way and they always said and you dont even need to tell the person your boundary. I understand this part depending on the situation your in, with someone actively using and unstable telling them a boundary might set them off. But in the situation Im in right now, where currently he is stable, and we are working on our relationship as well as our own stuff.. I would tell him before establishing a rule for myself because it would be healthy for us to discuss why I felt that way, and get feedback from him. It would be really disrespectful to just walk out of dinner and say I decided to set a boundary that I wont be around you if you drink. That would be damaging to our efforts to work on marriage.
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Old 03-05-2017, 11:14 AM
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Yes, that is why I said you don't "have to". You can if you want to, certainly, but the point that I don't want to get lost in all of this is that You Get To Decide What Your Boundaries Are By Yourself. No one gets to approve of them before you are allowed to have them. They aren't negotiable. If his feedback is that he doesn't want to feel guilty about drinking because you don't want to hang out with someone who is drinking, well then, his feelings are HIS responsibility, not yours.

This is true in any healthy relationship, regardless of whether addictions are involved.
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Old 03-05-2017, 11:16 AM
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Also, incidentally, it isn't always about boundaries "setting someone off" -- although in instances of abuse it very well can be.

It's more about that you are individual people, allowed to have individual feelings about things, and you don't need to negotiate those feelings with a partner, even someone you are in a relationship with. We either accept someone as they are or we don't; likewise, we are either accepted as-is or we are not. If we are not, changing ourselves and our natures to suit someone else's vision of us is not healthy.
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Old 03-05-2017, 11:22 AM
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Thanks SparkleKitty! Gosh golly...

OK down to business.

I havent thought it was my place to make that kind of decision for him is the main reason. Isnt that kind of controlling behavior?
Well, I can see why you can take it that way. Hmmm... Let me tell you a story.

I worked near the World Trade Center during 9/11. I get to hear, see, and smell everything. When I go back to work after they let everybody return, I can still see the Pit from my window. I actually brought a surgical mask and smeared it with Vicks each morning to disguise the smell. Even now, years afterwards, I still get jittery every time I hear a plane fly overhead.

I'm not telling you this so you can feel sorry for me - I just want to give you my state of mind here.

Five years after 9/11, my husband and I go to the movie theater to see Superman Returns. We don't go out that much so this was a real treat. We're looking forward to this night out. We start watching the movie -it's eh, but hey it's a night out!

And then the big climax happens, and it happens to be a city in chaos.

Props to the sound designer. There was crunching steel, people screaming, sirens, and the sound mix was perfect. Too perfect, because I went into a straight on panic attack and started sobbing in the movie theater. Over a stupid movie about Superman for Pete's sake! My husband whispered to me that we should leave right NOW. He couldn't bear to watch me get that upset. He wanted me to feel safe. He didn't care about spoiled night or the money we spent on the tickets. He just wanted me to be OK. I wasn't trying to control him when I started sobbing. I wasn't trying to make him leave the movie. I was just feeling what I was feeling, which was full fledged anxiety - perfectly normal given the circumstances.

Your husband and you have a history together. He has done some horrible things to you, and is trying to make amends. There are consequences to what he has done to you, and if he is truly remorseful he needs to accept those consequences. One of those consequences is the fact that you feel queasy about the social drinking. You have EVERY right to express your feelings to him.

It's not up to you to decide what he does when you tell him that the drinking/other triggering behavior upsets you. It's totally up to him. BUT, his reaction will give you more information in regards to his state of mind. Is he remorseful for what he did, or does he just want to sweep his past behavior under a rug?

And if you feel hesitant about mentioning your feelings about his social drinking, that in itself is another piece of information that you will have to ponder.

And yes to what SparkleKitty said about boundaries. Boundaries are your friend!
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Old 03-05-2017, 11:47 AM
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Thank you both. Thanks Puzzled for sharing that story. What an awful experience and I can see lasting trauma there. Your husband is a good man I think.

Ok I understand what you are both saying. I will have to give it some thought. I havent been triggered so far but I will have to analyze why? or if Im suppressing something? I think I need to put together a list of things and think about them all, and then discuss some when I have my appointment.

Mostly I want us both to be as healthy as possible, and have as healthy and peaceful, loving home as we can before the baby arrives.

I have been thinking more about the stresses he will face, and I want to make sure he has a plan in place for this. You guys helped highlight that for me on this thread too.

Today is a good day though. He cooked us breakfast of pancakes, omelette and sausage. He worked on the dishwasher that had some water backup last night. Its normal everyday goings on here and I feel relaxed around him. I really think its going to come down to his continuing to work on his issues so he can handle all life throws at him and stay solid on his feet and uphold his adult responsibilities with kindness and gentleness. Working a program as you guys call it. I dont know if it will be forever, hope not, but it will need to be for a while as we have a lot of new challenges ahead. Just pray for him please that he doesnt give up on himself. And pray for me too that my ears and eyes are open and my mind is able to sort it all out, and that my life remains healthy and good. thats a good Sunday Prayer, think I will say it myself for both of us.

Thanks for your caring everyone.
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Old 03-05-2017, 12:10 PM
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Alicia, you have been some good feedback, here. I think that the overall, arching principle, for you, is that taking care of your welfare and that of the baby has to be number one....
One thing, for sure, is that as time goes on, and this unfolds.....more will be revealed...(it always is).....
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Old 03-05-2017, 12:44 PM
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Hi, I wish you didn't have all of this to deal with and process whilst pregnant.
I think maybe it would be a good idea for you to make some friends, maybe at Alanon or baby groups - just so you aren't so totally reliant on your husband.
Sending my very best wishes to you
Hugs
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Old 03-05-2017, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
Hi, I wish you didn't have all of this to deal with and process whilst pregnant.
I think maybe it would be a good idea for you to make some friends, maybe at Alanon or baby groups - just so you aren't so totally reliant on your husband.
Sending my very best wishes to you
Hugs
Agree with you Hummer. I am hoping to get involved in some activities and meet people, and I feel in my heart its best to stay in therapy but not focus so much on programs like alanon because it keeps me (at least) tied so close to addiction and alcoholism, and constant reminders due to peoples shares and makes me feel depressed. ( There will never be a time when new people arent coming along in crisis because we all look for help during those times . And I praise those people who can be there for me and others when they are in need while not letting it become unhealthy for them. I think I get too wrapped up in it though). This is why I have to go slow and think things through like with the lady I met who invited me to Naranon and says I can go with her anytime.

I forgot to mention, my husband has tossed around the idea several times that maybe we should just move back to where we used to live. (another state) because we were happy there and he hoped to have a relationship with his parents was one reason for coming here but neither of us see that happening anytime soon. I dont know, in a way I wouldnt mind because I had a much fuller life there than Ive had since we moved here. He would have to see if he can get back into his firm out there though and he hasnt checked yet because we are not that far along in discussing it. It was big deal moving here, feels like such a waste now.
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Old 03-05-2017, 02:35 PM
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I wouldn't be too quick to move anywhere early in recovery. As I've said, I have my doubts about HIS recovery, but assuming for the sake of argument that he really is serious about it, major changes aren't a great idea. You already have a baby coming, which will be a major change in itself.

A lot of people believe that the change of scenery will do them good (AKA the "geographic cure"). If YOU have support there, then it might not be a bad place to wind up--I just wouldn't suggest piling a move on top of everything else you've got going on right now.
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Old 03-05-2017, 02:41 PM
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not focus so much on programs like alanon because it keeps me (at least) tied so close to addiction and alcoholism, and constant reminders due to peoples shares and makes me feel depressed

ignoring it won't make it go away. you LIVE with addiction.

my husband has tossed around the idea several times that maybe we should just move back to where we used to live. (another state) because we were happy there

this is what can be known as "doing a geographical" - oh the bad stuff happened HERE, let's go somewhere else! but if i recall, you met him back in the other state, he od'd in the other state. it wasn't all sunshine and daisies. see the problem is.....no matter WHERE he goes, there HE is. you guys had high hopes with THIS move, remember? better job, closer to the folks, fresh start.
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Old 03-05-2017, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII View Post
ignoring it won't make it go away. you LIVE with addiction.
And this is true, too. Recovery--YOUR recovery--can't always be painless. Sometimes it's hard, and some of the things we have to face are, in fact, a downer.

The goal is to build a happier life, and often that does involve some painful work.
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Old 03-05-2017, 02:55 PM
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Alicia I'm so glad to hear you saying that you're looking at ways of getting support for YOUrself and not get so caught up and dependent on the bad decisions he makes. (Including the recent "geographic cure" idea). It sounds like you jumped from one dependent relationship (under your parents) to another with him and haven't found your own voice quite yet. And dynamics are gonna change BIG TIME when your little one is born (they already have with the pregnancy and some of the focus being taken off him, no?) I'm also VERY glad to hear of your desire to return to full time work at some point soon, too. Especially after you saying you expect HIM to provide for the family. That thinking really puts you in an insecure situation especially with a needy, selfish, unsafe person as he is. You've got a lot on your plate and I hope things go well for you and you have some solid support systems and friendships in place for YOU.
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Old 03-05-2017, 04:42 PM
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A lot of truth and fact in all the above posts.

Refiner, I worked full time before we moved here, and I liked it. I have a college degree and all. Things HAVE NOT worked out at all like either of us thought when we moved here. There was this idea of a rosy situation with his parents who have always been distant, but encouraged us to move here. It took a while to sell our house and we bought another one so we had a lot of money going out. We had expenses from moving, I was no longer working, the new house needed things bought, he wasted a LOT of money on cocaine and alcohol, bought a new car during his crazy day time. His medical expenses were high, his court fees were high and thankfully all those charges were dropped. Now his dad might have some hope of coming around but we both ask is it worth trying because it is a lot of work and a lot of stress.

It does make the place we moved from look appealing. The only good thing here is cost of living is a lot less, and he makes more money so we can save. Of course now we have a baby and that will cost a lot of money too.

I know addicts like to run from things and he is doing good in counseling, and I am set up good with my own. I just have no real friends.

Probably he would feel more left out if there was anyone here making over me and the pregnancy but none of my family live close except for one relative who is fairly close but not in the same city. Most of the attention I get is from him about the baby. So far he is good, I think he feels protective sort of? A dad should I guess?

For now I will keep plugging along and trying to get stronger and smarter. You guys have been really nice to me this time Ive posted, OR maybe its ME and Im just taking it all in differently? Its probably me, I was sort of a know it all - your all wrong about him - and I dont want to hear it - cant tell me Im in denial cause Im not in denial. (Probably still see some of that Im sure).
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Old 03-05-2017, 05:25 PM
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All we can ask from you is that you keep an open mind, and that you not be blinded by what you HOPE will happen. None of us is right about everything, either. In fact, I hope I'm dead wrong about some of my opinions about your situation.

We're glad you're here and hope you keep posting, whether things go well or not-so-great.
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